Author Topic: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?  (Read 6613 times)

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Offline Cliff MatthewsTopic starter

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A recent video has me surprised at social and traffic experimentation in England. No stop-lights, no round about, no electronically aided cross-walks, and pedestrians unsure what to do. If they tried this in US, accident lawyers would have a hay-day. In the interest of Open-Source, would any give a thumbs-up to the suggestion on YT?

I posted this:
My suggestion would be to improve standard round-about designs with a smaller center island that's crash proof. It would contain an automated crosswalk illumination and alert lighting system (solar powered with city backup). The design for the center "Intelligent island" would have to be 100% OS (public domain and almost maintenance free) so any city/town could point to the drawings and tender-up price wars between companies to quickly install one at the best price. Additionally, a 360 degree surveillance system with 8-16 cameras could be added to help police work. Admittedly, some designs might be ugly, but firms wishing to enhance and beautify designs would still be required to put all drawings in the public domain Collaboration and Open Source can fill the need here. I'm surprised a progressive wouldn't have mentioned it...?

 

Offline Vtile

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2017, 02:44:27 pm »
I did click this with something totally different in my mind with words "road signs" and "open-source".   ... forked roadsigns with odd almost working versions everywhere .....  :-DD

Sorry too deep to reply atm., but your solution sound valid, what comes to true subject.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2017, 02:47:44 pm »
It seems to make sense to take human nature into account. They've found an effective way of reducing speeding too. Just reduce the road width. Obviously, there's only so much you can do, but it's often much more effective to do something like that, than to have cameras or cops all the time.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2017, 03:12:06 pm »
Shared space is unpopular in the UK, except with the transport consultants that get paid to advocate and design them.

Some of the shared space advocates are prime example of the Dunning-Kruger syndrome, e.g. repeatedly stating that Indian/etc roads are safe without too many signs - and continue their "misstatements" even after it is pointed out that in those countries the accident rate is >10 times higher than in the UK! Quite stunning.

If you want a thoughtful, peer-reviewed and financially disinterested assessment of shared spaces, start with "Shared space: Research, policy and problems. Proceedings of the Institution of Civil Engineers - Transport, Moody, S. and Melia, S." http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/17937/

That whole document is well worth reading; the abstract gives a flavour:
Shared space is an approach to street design which minimises demarcations between vehicles and pedestrians. It has become particularly influential in the UK, where a comprehensive study of shared space schemes has informed recently published national guidance to local highway authorities. This article critically examines the claim made in the guidance that it is ‘evidence based’. Primary research reported in the article, examines one of the sites in the ‘official study’, in Ashford, Kent, in greater depth, using video observation and a street survey of pedestrians. The findings show that most pedestrians diverted away from their desire lines, gave way to vehicles in most cases and felt safer under the original road layout. This evidence, and the analysis of the ‘official study’, cast doubt on some aspects of the methodology and its interpretation in the national guidance. The authors conclude that some of the claims made on behalf of shared space have overstated the available evidence, and that caution is needed in implementing shared space schemes, particularly in environments of high traffic flows.
The emphasised bit is "academic fighting talk".

A few of the more notable points are:
    surveyed 144 people – a useful but not excessive number (considerably more than the 30 used by the conslutants to "declare success"!)
    91% of women felt anxious (58% of men) (p7)
    72% are worried about sharing space in Elwick Square (p7)
    64% would prefer traditional pavements and crossings (p7)80% felt safer before (p7)
    people who used it the most were more likely to want changes (p7)
    “I won't let him go [to school] on his own now” (p6)
    “I know older people that don't come through here” (p6)
    “I know quite a few people that like to avoid the area” (p7)
    most pedestrians divert away from their “desire line” (p5). (cf the assertion that 100% of pedestrians moving along desire lines was based on a mere 30 observations! (p3)).
    17%-24% of the pedestrians ran across the road (p6)

There are many many other such examples in the UK, including many where, once the novelty has worn off, inhabitants (not remote designers) want to change back to the original.

For the avoidance of doubt, my belief is that in some locations shared spaces can work, but that advocates "conveniently" forget the necessary prerequisite conditions.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline bd139

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2017, 03:22:56 pm »
We have some of the safest roads in the world. Don’t mess with the formula is my advice :)
 
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Offline Cliff MatthewsTopic starter

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2017, 03:39:29 pm »
We have some of the safest roads in the world. Don’t mess with the formula is my advice :)
I'll might take your word for it, but evidence shows 90% of the world is right-handed. Having my most coordinated arm jammed up against a door just makes no sense..  People travel abroad than ever and are more inclined to speak one language than ever, so too the driving and public safety should be globally uniform.

Why should an old British throwback to left-handed machine use be thrust upon the UK and its submissive colonies?
Break free and buy American cars!  :-DD  (also from Canada - we make ~20% of these beasts)
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2017, 03:47:59 pm »
Left sided countries are safest. The reason is the most coordinated hand is available to stick out of the window and give people the finger and wanker fist with. Also it requires more intelligent people to drive a manual with the least dominant hand :D
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2017, 03:58:06 pm »
"Open source signs" is an idea, but scarcely a novel one. Here's an example from near the Tillingbourne.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2017, 04:00:34 pm »
"Open source signs" is an idea, but scarcely a novel one. Here's an example from near the Tillingbourne.
Isn't that the most imperial sign you ever saw?
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2017, 04:19:51 pm »
Shared spaces work great in low vehicle traffic areas - like the middle of mostly pedestrian shopping centres.
 

Offline Cliff MatthewsTopic starter

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2017, 04:33:18 pm »
Left sided countries are safest. The reason is the most coordinated hand is available to stick out of the window and give people the finger and wanker fist with. Also it requires more intelligent people to drive a manual with the least dominant hand :D
:-DD

Over here, we get helicopter police chases now and then. I think round about's slow those down a lot. Maybe some kind of Open-Source standard light/sound alert on high-speed approach (ie: fire/police/bandit) could alert drivers and pedestrians?
 

Offline Avacee

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2017, 04:55:33 pm »
I don't mind driving through the the shared space at Poynton as there's still a very clear delineation of pedestrians and cars and the middle of the road. It flows well and its clear where people are and where they are heading.

The one in Kensington on Exhibition Road by the Museum is a nightmare.
Cars heading towards me on my side of the road as there's nothing to indicate its actually two way traffic or where their side of the road is.
Due to the many museums and few residential buildings the pedestrians are invariably tourists with their usual suicidal tendencies and I've twice been yelled at for driving down a pedestrianised area by ignoramuses. Had a few car haters walking around randomly deliberately holding up the traffic too.
This google streetview image shows a row of parked cars .. Sometimes the cars are parked on the driving side (and pavement) and traffic is heading up/down the other side of the posts where the cars are parked.  :palm:  After a short time they end up either hitting a bench or swerving madly.

I appreciate the idea is "shared space" with everyone having equal right everywhere but this has been taken to an extreme and is far from optimal for safety and traffic flow.

Google Streetview for Exhibition Road
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 05:13:31 pm by Avacee »
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2017, 05:18:13 pm »
Left sided countries are safest. The reason is the most coordinated hand is available to stick out of the window and give people the finger and wanker fist with. Also it requires more intelligent people to drive a manual with the least dominant hand :D

*digs out the spare flameproof suit and passes it over*  :-DD :-DD
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2017, 05:20:40 pm »
I don't mind driving through the the shared space at Poynton as there's still a very clear delineation of pedestrians and cars and the middle of the road. It flows well and its clear where people are and where they are heading.

The one in Kensington on Exhibition Road by the Museum is a nightmare.
Cars heading towards me on my side of the road as there's nothing to indicate its actually two way traffic or where their side of the road is.
Due to the many museums and few residential buildings the pedestrians are invariably tourists with their usual suicidal tendencies and I've twice been yelled at for driving down a pedestrianised area by ignoramuses. Had a few car haters walking around randomly deliberately holding up the traffic too.
This google streetview image shows a row of parked cars .. Sometimes the cars are parked on the driving side (and pavement) and traffic is heading up/down the other side of the posts where the cars are parked.  :palm:  After a short time they end up either hitting a bench or swerving madly.

I appreciate the idea is "shared space" with everyone having equal right everywhere but this has been taken to an extreme and is far from optimal for safety and traffic flow.

Google Streetview for Exhibition Road

I've had a parking ticket on exhibition road because you can't see the bloody parking spaces properly when it rains (appealed it and won), Poynton was also bloody confusing when it was first done and still catches a *lot* of people out who don't know the area. Shared space is a PITA
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2017, 06:15:36 pm »
I don't mind driving through the the shared space at Poynton as there's still a very clear delineation of pedestrians and cars and the middle of the road.

Not for blind people - longstick users and guide dogs rely on following the kerb. Poynton (and other shared space schemes) are no-go exclusion zones for them.

At night and in the rain, there is insufficient delineation; see photos. Why is that lampost leaning? Did it merge with a car?

8% of men are colour blind, and it is far less visible to them than a good old-fashioned kerb.

I notice the majority of cyclists in Poynton choose to cycle (illegally?) on the pavement with pedestrians, rather than mixing it with busses and artics. As my daughter sagely noted, cyclists prefer to be on the road and only cycle on the pavement when they feel afraid on the road.

I'd love to see how well/badly autonomous vehicles navigate "reduced demarcation zones"!

In Byng Place (London) the reduced demarcation zone doesn't reduce speed, pedestrians start running when cars approach

Quote
It flows well and its clear where people are and where they are heading.

Many denizens disagree; many think there's been little improvement largely because the junction is congested. For example: Poynton residents' views: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Poynton-Regenerated/30362/

When I first went through there (before I knew anything about shared spaces), the lack of road direction signs at the junction meant I had to stop and read a map; the people behind me were very patient :)

Quote
I appreciate the idea is "shared space" with everyone having equal right everywhere but this has been taken to an extreme and is far from optimal for safety and traffic flow.

Quite; that's the problem!

Safety in shared spaces depends on drivers recognising the danger. But what if the driver is tired, distracted by a passenger, DUI, testosterone enhanced, or just plain incompetent. Roads should be designed based on predictable human failings. Presuming that people will always drive well is a recipe for disaster.



Source of one of the pictures http://www.macclesfield-express.co.uk/news/local-news/poynton-shop-crash-ignites-new-2528455

Accidents by Design: The (Lord) Holmes (of Richmond) Report on “shared space” in the United Kingdom http://chrisholmes.co.uk/news/accidents-by-design-the-holmes-report-into-shared-space/

Balanced, nuanced, broadly positive w.r.t shared spaces, and I agree with most of it. But read the last three paragraphs and consider the effect on local car insurance premiums: http://www.urbanmovement.co.uk/2/post/2013/06/low-speed-steady-flow-in-poynton-oli-davey.html

Transparent up-front agenda, but contains pointers to solid useful information that shouldn't be ignored. http://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2011/07/12/the-delusion-of-shared-space-as-an-urban-transport-panacea/
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 06:18:14 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline bd139

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2017, 07:35:23 pm »
That’s quite damning and rightfully so. Need to keep all the classes of dumbasses away from each other. They only have to deal with their own conceptual space then.

Literally my car has been knocked three times this week. Massive dent in the side door from someone reversing into a parking space on the other side of the road. A cyclist hit driver side mirror and fell off when I was parked and he misjudged going round the speed bump in the middle of the road. And I was parked outside the kebab shop and someone fell on it because they were drunk.

If you put those three dumbasses in the same space then it’s just going to be Armageddon.
 

Offline Gribo

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2017, 08:29:18 pm »
Quote
If you put those three dumbasses in the same space then it’s just going to be Armageddon.
That or accelerated evolution and Darwin awards.
I am available for freelance work.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2017, 08:41:37 pm »
I like your line of thinking  >:D
 

Online Jeroen3

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2017, 09:05:36 pm »
We have one famous roundabout where there are no lanes. It's about three/four lanes wide, and it has 6 exits.
It's here. It's not exactly a "shared space" these only exist in city centers. They try to divert you around city centers as much as possible.
Shared spaces are absolutely horrible at night.

Anyway, this roundabout is a highly stressful driving experience for beginners and occasional drivers. Especially during rush hour.
Observe:
https://youtu.be/-uC-ZpjrU80?t=83

« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 09:08:45 pm by Jeroen3 »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2017, 09:17:43 pm »
Lanes doesn't always help. Look at what we created with lanes!

Hemel Hempstead:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7445085,-0.4733123,220a,35y,39.44t/data=!3m1!1e3

Swindon:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5618552,-1.7716363,132a,35y,39.45t/data=!3m1!1e3

The latter is a completely fucked up mess.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 09:19:32 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2017, 09:33:08 pm »
Well, this is what came to my mind by reading about road signs that suck... :P





Yet, the funny thing is that I do not think that they do suck that much really; not in their present condition!...


-George
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 09:37:06 pm by A Hellene »
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2017, 09:59:29 pm »
That’s quite damning and rightfully so. Need to keep all the classes of dumbasses away from each other. They only have to deal with their own conceptual space then.

(There's much much evidence against shared spaces. I omitted in the interests of brevity and the readers' sanity).

That has repeatedly been shown to be the workable preference of the various types of road users. That is especially apparent in the Netherlands.

As to why shared space proponents have mutated the name into various alternatives, e.g. "reduced demarcation zones", you might think it was because they realised that googling for "shared space" brought up too many negative hits. I could not possibly comment.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2017, 10:08:34 pm »
Lanes doesn't always help. Look at what we created with lanes!

Hemel Hempstead:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7445085,-0.4733123,220a,35y,39.44t/data=!3m1!1e3

Swindon:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5618552,-1.7716363,132a,35y,39.45t/data=!3m1!1e3

The latter is a completely fucked up mess.

Curiously I have stumbled into those without warning, just as I did into the shared space scheme in Poynton. A quick glance at the road signs near the roundabout's entrance was sufficient to enable me to easily and simply navigate them.

The Poynton scheme was, and continues to be, an unpleasant experience since you are never quite sure what the other users and pedestrians are going to do. Now shared space zealots mutter "very dangerous is safe", and while there is a pleasing libertarian sound to that, it doesn't account for the distracted/incompetent drives/cyclists/pedestrians behaviour.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2017, 10:12:19 pm »
Curiously I have stumbled into those without warning, just as I did into the shared space scheme in Poynton. A quick glance at the road signs near the roundabout's entrance was sufficient to enable me to easily and simply navigate them.

Likewise, but as the "bell curve" neatly illustrates, 50% of people are likely below average. It also only takes one idiot to sink a ship and take everyone with it :)
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Road signs suck. What if we got rid of them all? Or... go open-source?
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2017, 10:52:47 pm »
Curiously I have stumbled into those without warning, just as I did into the shared space scheme in Poynton. A quick glance at the road signs near the roundabout's entrance was sufficient to enable me to easily and simply navigate them.

Likewise, but as the "bell curve" neatly illustrates, 50% of people are likely below average. It also only takes one idiot to sink a ship and take everyone with it :)

Yes indeed, except it is quite possible to have a "Lake Woebegon" population. Consider test results of 8,8,8,8,7; 80% are above average. Or, for that matter, corporate salaries of 10k, 10k, 10k, 10k, 460k; the average salary is 100k.

(Yes, I read Darryl Huff's classic "How to lie with statistics" as a kid :) )
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 10:58:32 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 


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