Author Topic: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks  (Read 10520 times)

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Offline Tepe

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #325 on: December 07, 2017, 02:15:33 AM »
Edit: Also in Betz paper, part 2 there are several experiments described with sufficient detail for replication and references to further information.
Betz et al. have been debunked. It's just an example of embarrasingly bad science.
For a fun read, look at https://www.csicop.org/si/show/testing_dowsing_the_failure_of_the_munich_experiments
 
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Offline Freelander

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #326 on: December 07, 2017, 02:19:58 AM »
So, after pages and pages of the 'World V, errrr 1'.....  :blah: it is now finally accepted and understood that there is ABSOLUTELY NO, NON,NADA, ZILCH, BUGGER ALL, EFF ALL and SOD ALL IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE - AT ALL - EVER - ;) TO SUPPORT DOWSING. Despite the best attempts of many to prove it works by simply talking about it and reciting anecdotal after beer fairy stories, not the slightest iota of proof exists.

 ::)
It is a total load of bollocks. The quantum photon BS detector - says......... Bullshit

Me thinks a certain 'Lobo' may be doing a rather good trolling exercise :-DD....................

There, Job sorted. :clap:

"Move along please ... nothing to more to see here......"
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #327 on: December 07, 2017, 02:25:51 AM »
Edit: Also in Betz paper, part 2 there are several experiments described with sufficient detail for replication and references to further information.
Betz et al. have been debunked. It's just an example of embarrasingly bad science.
For a fun read, look at https://www.csicop.org/si/show/testing_dowsing_the_failure_of_the_munich_experiments
Physicists have a track record of being really bad at detecting fraud. See various physicist's investigations of people like Uri Geller for how easily quite a few physicists have been taken in by things which magicians saw through almost immediately. Where someone may be trying to fool you, or may be fooling themselves, magicians are one of the best groups of people to get involved in investigations.
 
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Online MrW0lf

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #328 on: December 07, 2017, 02:35:37 AM »
Betz et al. have been debunked. It's just an example of embarrasingly bad science. For a fun read, look at https://www.csicop.org/si/show/testing_dowsing_the_failure_of_the_munich_experiments

Congrats, seems you did find most "unbiased" source there is:

Committee for Skeptical Inquiry

Quote
Some of the founding members of CSI include scientists, academics, and science writers such as Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, Philip Klass, Paul Kurtz, Ray Hyman, James Randi, Martin Gardner, Sidney Hook, and others. A list of CSI fellows is published in every issue of Skeptical Inquirer magazine.

So group with specific and sole purpose of organized attack on anything outside current official paradigm :-//

If these would be true skeptics maybe should take closer look at string theory which has zero experimental proof AFAIK. If look carefully may find other stuff also inside official paradigm worth poking with sharp stick to let air out but seems to no interest for those "skeptics".

Edit: If go carefully over the list of members might notice distinct lack of experimental physicists yet abundance of people very good at directing public opinion :popcorn:
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 02:45:12 AM by MrW0lf »
 

Online Dubbie

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #329 on: December 07, 2017, 06:34:27 AM »
Mr Wolf,
It is another skill entirely to critically evaluate experimental protocols. Especially when deception may be involved. A typical scientist is laughably naïve when it comes to that sort of thing. The group at the CSI have decades of experience in the ways that an experiment can go wrong. If there was some nifty trick thought up 120 years ago by some con-man, they will know about it.
 

Online MrW0lf

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #330 on: December 07, 2017, 07:39:04 AM »
CSI is looking at it from own perspective. Magician thinks its a trick, psychology specialists think it is in their head etc. Also conveniently select only information that can be picked on ignoring all the other assuming public is so stupid that reads only abstracts and cannot do own experiments. Dowsing is not LHC. Anyone can experiment and arrive at own conclusions.
And question remains, why CSI would not go after string theory and many other mathematical fantasies w/o any experimental proof at all. Smells like double standards.



« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 07:42:08 AM by MrW0lf »
 

Online Dubbie

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #331 on: December 07, 2017, 07:56:55 AM »
why CSI would not go after string theory and many other mathematical fantasies w/o any experimental proof at all. Smells like double standards.

Thats because nobody is making any claims about string theory == reality.
Nobody seriously researching it is under any illusions that it is anything more than a theory that will need a ton more work and experimentation before anyone can be confident that it actually coincides with reality.
 

Offline Vtile

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #332 on: December 07, 2017, 08:01:59 AM »
Pick your point and call it as a ground.
 

Online MrW0lf

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #333 on: December 07, 2017, 08:24:37 AM »
Nobody seriously researching it is under any illusions that it is anything more than a theory that will need a ton more work and experimentation before anyone can be confident that it actually coincides with reality.

:o Seems to tick most of the boxes here :-+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience#Use_of_vague,_exaggerated_or_untestable_claims

Now looking here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_Skeptical_Inquiry
"CSI conducts and publishes investigations into Bigfoot and UFO sightings, psychics, astrologers, alternative medicine, religious cults, and paranormal or pseudoscientific claims"

Double standards: check
 

Online Lightages

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #334 on: December 07, 2017, 08:35:19 AM »
But what seems to consistently encourage such beliefs, and much of pseudoscience is the arrogant way those who claim to follow 'science' immediately dismiss such ideas with a wave of a hand

Who here has dismissed anything with a wave of a hand? We refer to tests that show no better than chance, and there is still no evidence that shows it works. Do you believe anything [proposed without a reason to believe it?
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Online Lightages

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #335 on: December 07, 2017, 08:49:03 AM »
Wow, after reading more responses from the side of believing, I am starting to sort out who I will follow any advice or help here on the forums.  I have already dismissed at least 5 people who I will ignore anything they say, on any subject. Maybe we need an ignore option here for members we never wish to see their messages.

We have anecdotes and nothing more other than flawed tests that were inconclusive. Yet we have believers here who defend dowsing and other woowoo without any good reason. Nothing offered except stories and weird references to weird things.

What is the default position on an assertion without evidence or proof?  It is not a reality or to be believed.

What is the position on something that is asserted when evidence and repeatable testing has shown it to be better than chance? Perhaps it is to believe, at least provisionally, until better evidence and better tests show it to be not believable.

How are these things so difficult for people? I have been wondering for 46 years. Anything asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Show me dowsing works or go away. I have even made a challenge where I would stand to lose a lot of money if I am wrong. All the woowoo cowards just ignore the challenge and go on to more woowoo BS assertions and personal interpretations of "experiments" and appeals to authority.
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Offline Buriedcode

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #336 on: December 07, 2017, 11:48:37 AM »
But what seems to consistently encourage such beliefs, and much of pseudoscience is the arrogant way those who claim to follow 'science' immediately dismiss such ideas with a wave of a hand

Who here has dismissed anything with a wave of a hand? We refer to tests that show no better than chance, and there is still no evidence that shows it works. Do you believe anything [proposed without a reason to believe it?

My point was, such debates become entrenched because of a disagreement about what constitutes "evidence" and whilst many ask someone to explain why they believe something is true (which generally comes as a consequence of belief, not cause) there are occasions where someones beliefs are dismissed in a somewhat patronizing way - which may or may not be warranted, but only really has the effect of alienating the other side, further strengthening their resolve.  So ones contribution to the debate isn't to always further anyone's understanding, or to get their point across, but to ridicule and perpetuate such ideas.

Do I believe anything without a reason to believe it?  I imagine I do.  I believe everyone does.  Although this all depends on what constitutes 'reason'.  There are good/reasonable reasons, such as believing the sun will rise tomorrow - because that has happened every day I have been alive.  There are fair reasons - such as believing that the Battle of Hastings happened, even though I didn't experience it, I trust historians. 

There are beliefs that instinctively feel right, such as.. eating more fruit is healthy, or that often diseases are caused by modern lifestyle, but these are vague and so can both be proved, and disproved depending on where you wish to put the goal posts.

I think this thread is a fine example of how relatively intelligent people who are clearly skilled/knowledgeable can hold beliefs we find almost silly.  If you think you're a logical, reasonable person who doesn't believe in anything without good reason - then you're just as susceptible to having unprovable beliefs as anyone else.

Also, lightages, whilst I understand the frustration - I don't understand why people believe dosing 'work's either - it seems you're dismissing the (electronics) opinions of people based on their beliefs in other areas.  By that logic do you also refuse to converse with anyone who subscribes to a religion? Or do you accept that someone can both have faith in an almighty and at the same time, study mathematics, or medicine?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/excellent-beauty/201608/weird-beliefs  - not the best source

edit: changed link, used the wrong one

« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 11:55:13 AM by Buriedcode »
 

Online Lightages

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #337 on: December 07, 2017, 02:18:23 PM »
My point was, such debates become entrenched because of a disagreement about what constitutes "evidence" and whilst many ask someone to explain why they believe something is true (which generally comes as a consequence of belief, not cause) there are occasions where someones beliefs are dismissed in a somewhat patronizing way - which may or may not be warranted, but only really has the effect of alienating the other side, further strengthening their resolve.  So ones contribution to the debate isn't to always further anyone's understanding, or to get their point across, but to ridicule and perpetuate such ideas.

I have tried dowsing. I have read and watched many studies on the efficacy of dowsing. I have never seen any test where the situation did not rely on outside clues where dowsing has worked. I do not believe that dowsing works as it has never proven to be reliable in tests where the tested person could not receive clues. To believe that dowsing works without evidence is worthy of ridicule.

Do I believe anything without a reason to believe it?  I imagine I do.  I believe everyone does.  Although this all depends on what constitutes 'reason'.  There are good/reasonable reasons, such as believing the sun will rise tomorrow - because that has happened every day I have been alive.  There are fair reasons - such as believing that the Battle of Hastings happened, even though I didn't experience it, I trust historians.

I might hold beliefs that I do not have a reason to do so. I do not want those beliefs and as soon as they are brought to my attention I will discard them. This is unlike those who look for anything to help them believe things not in evidence. There are reasons to believe that the battle of Hastings occurred, but not many if any to not believe it. There is no reason to believe that dowsing works once it has been shown to be no more reliable than chance in every test put forward that was properly controlled. Stop making straw men.

There are beliefs that instinctively feel right, such as.. eating more fruit is healthy, or that often diseases are caused by modern lifestyle, but these are vague and so can both be proved, and disproved depending on where you wish to put the goal posts.

Who gives a damn what feels right. What is real is real and if it is not I care not how it feels if it is right or not. Silly.

I think this thread is a fine example of how relatively intelligent people who are clearly skilled/knowledgeable can hold beliefs we find almost silly.  If you think you're a logical, reasonable person who doesn't believe in anything without good reason - then you're just as susceptible to having unprovable beliefs as anyone else.

When did I say otherwise? Actually I think I said the same thing. :palm:

Also, lightages, whilst I understand the frustration - I don't understand why people believe dosing 'work's either - it seems you're dismissing the (electronics) opinions of people based on their beliefs in other areas.  By that logic do you also refuse to converse with anyone who subscribes to a religion? Or do you accept that someone can both have faith in an almighty and at the same time, study mathematics, or medicine?

When certain people go to the length I have seen here to try and justify their beliefs against the evidence, I am loath to trust any other deduction they might have. Broken logic breeds more broken logic. I have no choice but to live an world of woowoo because no other world exists yet that I know of.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/excellent-beauty/201608/weird-beliefs  - not the best source

edit: changed link, used the wrong one

Yup, I agree that people can have two completely opposite beliefs in their head at the same time. I said that earlier. So?  I might have the same problem. The difference is that I will discard the belief that has no basis once I am conscious of the problem. Many people in the world do not seem to be able to do so and go through huge mental gymnastics to make them fit. I have been observing this my whole life as an atheist. I have been the victim of those who do this all my life also. Yes, a victim.
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Online Lightages

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #338 on: December 07, 2017, 02:39:38 PM »
Anybody want to take my challenge?  :-DD
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Offline hendorog

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #339 on: December 07, 2017, 02:45:09 PM »
Think outside the square folks:

Dowsing succeeds in getting a group of people to agree on where to dig the hole.

Think about in the old days, a few people spending all day digging a hole by hand. They needed to agree on where to dig somehow and this way no-one is to blame.

When I've seen it done everyone ended up pointing to the same spot. That is the part which is interesting, that people subconsciously make it work.
 
Whether there is water underneath is another thing entirely and down to blind luck, but at least it avoids the punch-ups.

 
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Online MrW0lf

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #340 on: December 08, 2017, 02:07:33 AM »
Wow, after reading more responses from the side of believing, I am starting to sort out who I will follow any advice or help here on the forums.

Do not remember saying that I believe. Also if you disagree with person on something and go into ignore mode because of that - fairly not efficient in real world - basically kindergarten level approach. Maybe should look closer into that approach if wondering why nothing works for you - nor dowsing or getting someone to agree into meaningful communication.

We have anecdotes and nothing more other than flawed tests that were inconclusive.

Whiny CSI article covered only small part of info in GTZ paper concentrating on experiments that are on well trained ESP level, not some random tech dowser. In fact these kinds of tests have little to do with historical way of dowsing at all. I have yet seen anything that would disprove efficiency of actual field work they did with drilling. Russian book covers quite well what might go wrong with indoor testing, testing at time when weather changes [no reaction], testing on constantly changing situation etc. Note that book was approved by high level academic commission. Also there has been no constructive criticism on their findings.

So what we have here? Einstein, Planck, Russian academics vs some shady organization consisting mostly of psychologists and writers? And note - big thinkers have not said anything about believing - only about need for proper research not kindergarten level tests on another level subject (pure ESP) that imply people involved have no concept about underlying physics.

If you want to actually gain knowledge then for starters buy some electrometers, ground radars etc T&M stuff, cool off, talk respectfully to some drilling teams who uses dowsing. Then observe their work "in natural habitat" and record what you find. While at that that keep in mind manipulating stats or "natural habitat" to support your belief is not ok.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 02:12:54 AM by MrW0lf »
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #341 on: December 08, 2017, 02:11:55 AM »
You might not be saying that you believe, but you're sure moving heaving and earth to make a case for dowsing. You're certaily not saying you don't believe.
 

Online MrW0lf

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #342 on: December 08, 2017, 02:36:48 AM »
You might not be saying that you believe, but you're sure moving heaving and earth to make a case for dowsing. You're certaily not saying you don't believe.

Actually my case is against pseudoskepticism which is one of greatest evils facing any potentially game changer research. True innovation is often individual or very small group effort. Doing that effort should be interesting and pleasant, for example sharing your findings. But instead it is the case of "everything you say or do will be used against you". Some things havent changed a bit from medieval times. Fairly disgusting.




« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 02:38:40 AM by MrW0lf »
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #343 on: December 08, 2017, 02:49:45 AM »
Actually my case is against pseudoskepticism which is one of greatest evils facing any potentially game changer research. True innovation is often individual or very small group effort. Doing that effort should be interesting and pleasant, for example sharing your findings. But instead it is the case of "everything you say or do will be used against you". Some things havent changed a bit from medieval times. Fairly disgusting.
Do you consider dowsing and research related to it to be "game changer research"?
 

Offline drussell

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #344 on: December 08, 2017, 02:51:33 AM »
Maybe we need an ignore option here for members we never wish to see their messages.

There is an ignore option...  It is in the same place as the "Buddies List".

Go to your Forum Profile then under Modify Profile click Buddies/Ignore List...

It can be very useful to reduce the noise level.  :)
 

Online MrW0lf

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #345 on: December 08, 2017, 03:00:54 AM »
Do you consider dowsing and research related to it to be "game changer research"?

All research related to humans being something more than a unreliable algorithmic robot is fairly important in the light of latest developments.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 03:03:58 AM by MrW0lf »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #346 on: December 08, 2017, 03:03:31 AM »
Do you consider dowsing and research related to it to be "game changer research"?
Oh come on. All results to date have been negative, or the methods shot down as highly flawed. There has been no investigation that has made a well trained observer think "hey, what's going on there?". There is nothing that would currently make a dispassionate observer say there was something worth throwing serious resources at, to investigate further. However, if someone started getting positive results, that people couldn't find the flaws in, it would most certainly be a game changer.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 03:09:45 AM by coppice »
 

Offline ChrisLX200

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #347 on: December 08, 2017, 03:30:06 AM »
Well that's the key - extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.. Better to see it working and move from there to discovering how it worked, as opposed to making up theories on how such a thing may work and trying to prove it. Evidence to support a claim of extraordinary ability must come first (to avoid wasted effort) and I'm not at all convinced it exists. However, I try to keep an open mind and won't dismiss it out of hand. After all, who would have believed birds could detect and navigate using Earth's magnetic field? Is that an extraordinary and unexpected ability?

If you want to take the position where nothing can be true unless proven to your own personal satisfaction then that's fine, but you also dismiss the beliefs of most of the planet's population who believe otherwise and may well hold beliefs/faith you find totally unjustifiable. I've been around too many years to think I know everything, that's a trait of younger generations. Just ask a teenager :)
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #348 on: December 08, 2017, 04:10:50 AM »
Another way to look for water - more electronics related:
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Scientist finds UK water companies use 'magic' to find leaks
« Reply #349 on: December 08, 2017, 04:23:36 AM »
All research related to humans being something more than a unreliable algorithmic robot is fairly important in the light of latest developments.
I take that to be a yes.
 


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