Simone Giertz

[NiHaoMike]

They should heavily tax junk food to subsidize healthcare. A lot of the health issues seen today are related to unhealthy habits and those who live a healthy lifestyle do not want to pay for others' bad decisions.

[CJay]

They should heavily tax junk food to subsidize healthcare. A lot of the health issues seen today are related to unhealthy habits and those who live a healthy lifestyle do not want to pay for others' bad decisions.

I pay just over £1500 per year in tax for the NHS, that covers me for pretty much anything that happens, any illness, injury etc. even if it's a pre-existing condition.

If I need drugs in hospital then they're free, I pay no extra, prescriptions on discharge are usually free or, if they're prescribed by my doctor, I pay £8.80 per medication, again subsidised by the portion of my tax payment that goes to the NHS.

If I need dental care I pay a flat fee per treatment which is, again, subsidised by that £1500 per annum, medication again, £8.80.

I reckon I get a pretty good deal (the occasions where I've needed medical care, I've had great treatment and care) and I am happy that my tax contribution means that people who need healthcare get it, without having to worry about how to pay.

Call me a socialist if you like but I reckon that's what civilised, caring people in a decent society do for each other so tell me again how great it is to not have social healthcare?

[EEVblog]

after $232736.56 ... "what a bargain!" she said
i wonder what ppl do w/o insurance 

Did she have to actually pay that or was she insured?

$28k in Oz it seems, or free if you want to wait for a public hospital and get the work experience kid. I'd happily pony up the $28K for private and more for the best brain surgeon in the country.
When I had my knee op, I sort out the best surgeon in the country and only paid like $3k. As a bonus I also got one of the best anesthetists in the country too.

http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Hospitals/Going_To_hospital/cost-of-care/Pages/default.aspx

[NiHaoMike]

She said she had insurance.

[T3sl4co1l]

Keep in mind also, hospitals bill you for $ridiculous, any and every thing they can think of, at prices that have no basis anywhere.  It isn't meaningful.  Apparently the trick is to refuse payment until they send you the bill, itemized, priced correctly, for things actually used, at more or less the rate the insurance co's get.

Which is still a ridiculous amount, but that's a political issue, so let's not diverge too far that way.

Tim (has not had to do this, so take this with a grain of salt)

[NiHaoMike]

I'm pretty sure a big reason for the high initial quote is to make overpriced insurance look like a great deal.

[james_s]

A large part of it is that hospitals bill the maximum the insurance will pay, there are no cost controls of any kind so they submit a high bill and then it gets reduced to the max that can be paid. Another part of it is that the hospitals can't refuse treatment, so they must absorb the costs of those who can't pay. That's what opponents of universal healthcare don't seem to comprehend, we *already* pay for all the people who can't pay, we just do it in about the least efficient way possible. Even under ideal circumstances where one has good insurance it's a nightmare. In network, out of network, inpatient, outpatient, specialists, generic and name brand drugs, some stuff is covered, some isn't. You can go see a doctor and not know if you'll walk out with a $30 bill or a $30,000 bill. Doctors will prescribe treatments or medications and it's up to you to figure out if your insurance will cover that particular treatment. Sometimes you have to wait weeks for the insurance to approve it, or they deny coverage on treatment you need and then you have to battle them. It's absurd, and something my friends in other countries always seem baffled by how broken and backwards it all is here.

[Mr. Scram]

They should heavily tax junk food to subsidize healthcare. A lot of the health issues seen today are related to unhealthy habits and those who live a healthy lifestyle do not want to pay for others' bad decisions.

Honestly, most of the health issues seen today and the ever increasing cost of healthcare have to do with us getting older and older. Old, rickety people hanging in there are very expensive. Unhealthy people tend to die early and are therefore much cheaper. It's a bit of a catch 22, because you can hardly tax old age.

[Mr. Scram]

For at least 50% of the Americans, the blue marked text above already counts as 'communism' which must therefore be strictly combated. Never give away anything that could benefit others.

I guess that's what you get after half a century of indoctrination, but the relentless fear of communism and socialism has caused the US and its citizens way more harm than communism could ever have done.

[Pinkus]

A large part of it is that hospitals bill the maximum the insurance will pay

Oh, yeah, I remember my wife getting cystitis on vacation in the US in 1998.
Since we did not know (at that time there was no smartphone with internet) where we could find which doctor, we went to a small hospital that we happened to pass.

The lady at reception was kind enough to make it clear to us tourists, that we do NOT want to be treated there, because that could quickly cost us several thousand dollars. We'd better go to Dr. xy, whose address she gave us. That was then reasonably priced (can't remember, but was OK, maybe $50 or $100).

[Mr. Scram]

Oh, yeah, I remember my wife getting cystitis on vacation in the US in 1998.
Since we did not know (at that time there was no smartphone with internet) where we could find which doctor, we went to a small hospital that we happened to pass.

The lady at reception was kind enough to make it clear to us tourists, that we do NOT want to be treated there, because that could quickly cost us several thousand dollars. We'd better go to Dr. xy, whose address she gave us. That was then reasonably priced (can't remember, but was OK, maybe $50 or $100).

I think I remember a story of a British lady that unexpectedly went into labour in the US, with the child needing all sorts of care for being premature. They couldn't travel home due to the baby's health, racking up the costs and leaving them in a financial sink hole.

Luckily the hospital decided to eat the costs after the media reported on the matter, but it's certainly a nightmare. There are plenty of other cases where people got stuck in the US with a bill of hundreds of thousands of dollars that didn't end so well. Not a lot of fun.

[ttelectronic]

A large part of it is that hospitals bill the maximum the insurance will pay, there are no cost controls of any kind so they submit a high bill and then it gets reduced to the max that can be paid. Another part of it is that the hospitals can't refuse treatment, so they must absorb the costs of those who can't pay. That's what opponents of universal healthcare don't seem to comprehend, we *already* pay for all the people who can't pay, we just do it in about the least efficient way possible. Even under ideal circumstances where one has good insurance it's a nightmare. In network, out of network, inpatient, outpatient, specialists, generic and name brand drugs, some stuff is covered, some isn't. You can go see a doctor and not know if you'll walk out with a $30 bill or a $30,000 bill. Doctors will prescribe treatments or medications and it's up to you to figure out if your insurance will cover that particular treatment. Sometimes you have to wait weeks for the insurance to approve it, or they deny coverage on treatment you need and then you have to battle them. It's absurd, and something my friends in other countries always seem baffled by how broken and backwards it all is here.

It's so screwed up, and the attitude is why should I cover someone elses bill as you said they don't even realize that is what is done anyways, you cannot get blood from a stone. I will take my socialist healthcare any day over a system where you are out hundreds or thousands even if you have insurance if they cannot find a way to drop the costlier patients.

To the people that say why should I pay for someone else, I always want to say do you care about your brothers, sisters, cousins, grandparents, parents etc etc. It's such a selfish attitude that I don't think will ever change. Meanwhile the insurance cos make bank of of the malpractice insurance and health insurance etc. Ugh. I don't know if there is any hope of people getting why universal healthcare is better.   

No healthcare system is perfect. But, I'm glad for what we have.

[Pinkus]

I frequently remember a scene in a television documentary about American hospitals. That was about six or seven years ago. It did shock me that much, that every one and now I remember this scene which left me with tears in my eyes. I repeat: this was a real documentary, not scripted reality:

An elderly gentleman came into the emergency room (I think). After the examination it turned out that he had a bowel obstruction. (FYI: if this is not operated, it ends deadly)

Apparently, his insurance company refused to pay for the necessary operation, so he was admitted to the hospital but only received painkillers. He was made clear by the doctors that he would die shortly and that he should settle his affairs.
I wonder what a system this is where the insurance company decides if it's worth saving me. So it will always come down to me becoming too expensive for the insurance company and they will let me die. As a farewell they at least pay for the painkillers.....

[mtdoc]

The medical "system" in the USA is a racket designed to maximize profits for insurance companies, medical device manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies, and the large hospital corporations.   

The political system in the US has been poisoned by money from these interests so that a large number of Americans falsely believe that single payer healthcare as practiced in every other developed country is somehow inferior or more expensive (it is neither).

Even with that, the majority of Americans do favor changing to a single payer system, yet the corporate owned politicians do not follow the will of the people. We live in an oligarchy not a democracy.

Most of the people on the ground working in health care: doctors, nurses, techs, etc  are doing the best they can and do not put profits over people (there are exceptions).

[Bassman59]

The medical "system" in the USA is a racket designed to maximize profits for insurance companies, medical device manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies, and the large hospital corporations.   

The political system in the US has been poisoned by money from these interests so that a large number of Americans falsely believe that single payer healthcare as practiced in every other developed country is somehow inferior or more expensive (it is neither).

Even with that, the majority of Americans do favor changing to a single payer system, yet the corporate owned politicians do not follow the will of the people. We live in an oligarchy not a democracy.

Most of the people on the ground working in health care: doctors, nurses, techs, etc  are doing the best they can and do not put profits over people (there are exceptions).

All of the above is entirely true.

That there is even the notion of for-profit health care is horrific.

That our for-profit health care is paid for using for-profit insurance is the insult to the injury.

I live in America -- a third-world country that will not admit such.

[NiHaoMike]

To the people that say why should I pay for someone else, I always want to say do you care about your brothers, sisters, cousins, grandparents, parents etc etc. It's such a selfish attitude that I don't think will ever change. Meanwhile the insurance cos make bank of of the malpractice insurance and health insurance etc. Ugh. I don't know if there is any hope of people getting why universal healthcare is better.   

The problem is that those who live an unhealthy lifestyle unfairly take more from the system than those who live a healthy lifestyle, thus raising cost for everyone. Taxing junk food is one way to try to level that. Note that I'm not biased against those who incur large medical costs due to misfortune like what happened to Simone - just those who got into it through bad choices of their own.

To make an analogy, why should a driver who has had a spotless driving record for 10 years pay as much for car insurance as someone who regularly runs red lights, drives way above the speed limit, and has been in several serious accidents in the last 10 years?

[james_s]

I guess that's what you get after half a century of indoctrination, but the relentless fear of communism and socialism has caused the US and its citizens way more harm than communism could ever have done.

I'm going to try not to be political or take sides here, but to a lot of people "socialism" is a dirty word that gets used to describe all manner of negative things regardless of whether they have anything at all to do with socialism. When a lot of people hear that word they think "communism" and have images of oppressive Soviet dictatorships. Nevermind that none of these "isms" really exist in a vacuum. Some concepts like insurance are inherently socialist, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with capitalism. For the most part I think the capitalist free market works very well, but health care is one of those things that I don't think it is well suited for.

[james_s]

The problem is that those who live an unhealthy lifestyle unfairly take more from the system than those who live a healthy lifestyle, thus raising cost for everyone. Taxing junk food is one way to try to level that. Note that I'm not biased against those who incur large medical costs due to misfortune like what happened to Simone - just those who got into it through bad choices of their own.

To make an analogy, why should a driver who has had a spotless driving record for 10 years pay as much for car insurance as someone who regularly runs red lights, drives way above the speed limit, and has been in several serious accidents in the last 10 years?

That sounds good in theory, but how do you implement it in practice? What counts as junkfood and how much impact does that food really have? Should we tax people for being lazy and not exercising? Should we tax people for eating too much food? I mean you can get fat eating nothing but fruits and vegetables if you pig out all the time. Sedentary lifestyles, air pollution and genetic factors have a huge impact on overall health, should we tax people based on their genes? Seems it would make more sense to provide health coverage for everyone since we are already paying for it anyway, and create incentives for being healthy. It's ironic though that if you look at the regions where people on average are most vocally opposed to things like universal healthcare, those regions tend to have some of the highest obesity rates in the nation.

For the most part a driver with a poor record does pay more for insurance than one with a clean record. I do find it annoying that the difference is not greater though. I have an absolutely spotless record for more than 20 years, never gotten a ticket and the only accidents I've been in I was rear-ended while stopped and yet my insurance rates creep up regularly. At least driving is technically optional, I don't have to choose between buying car insurance and dying.

[NiHaoMike]

I mean you can get fat eating nothing but fruits and vegetables if you pig out all the time. Sedentary lifestyles, air pollution and genetic factors have a huge impact on overall health, should we tax people based on their genes?

Freelee the Banana Girl has disproved that it's possible to get fat eating just (unprocessed or minimally processed) fruits and vegetables. I did consider the possibility of subsidizing gym memberships, but couldn't figure out a way that would keep the gyms honest (they'll definitely raise prices to compensate) and not be biased against those who exercise in other ways. Air pollution is not really something that can be controlled on an individual level, except for smoking which should be outlawed in public. Genetics is not something an individual chooses so diseases caused by it fall under the "misfortune" category.

[james_s]

It has been shown though that there is a strong genetic link to obesity, along with many other factors. Sometimes people are fat because they overeat and/or don't exercise, but some people have the fortune of being able to eat practically anything they want while not gaining weight. I had a friend when I was younger who used to complain that he couldn't gain weight and his appetite was making him broke. I wouldn't take one person's experiment as proof that it's not possible to get fat by eating fruits, she may well be one of those lucky people whose body doesn't seem to stockpile a lot of fat.

[Gyro]

It's so screwed up, and the attitude is why should I cover someone elses bill as you said they don't even realize that is what is done anyways, you cannot get blood from a stone. I will take my socialist healthcare any day over a system where you are out hundreds or thousands even if you have insurance if they cannot find a way to drop the costlier patients.

Speaking of blood (sorry, tenuous link), I think one of the big money oriented  issues (the flip side of private medical bills?) with the US health system is the practice of paying for blood donations. This leads to the people in greatest financial need, and potentially least suitability, making up the majority of 'donations'.

There was a huge historical scandal in the UK over the number of Hemophiliacs contracting and dying of HIV and Hepatitis-C due to the use of imported blood products. In the NHS, blood donations are exactly that, we bleed for free. OK the system isn't perfect, there's always a need more donors, but donors have no reason to lie about their medical status or history.


Edit: I don't know how much of an issue contaminated blood products is in the US?  It's hard to believe that we were just sold the 'bad' stuff.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_tainted_blood_scandal

Edit 1: Just curious, how many other countries do pay for blood donations?

[NiHaoMike]

It has been shown though that there is a strong genetic link to obesity, along with many other factors. Sometimes people are fat because they overeat and/or don't exercise, but some people have the fortune of being able to eat practically anything they want while not gaining weight. I had a friend when I was younger who used to complain that he couldn't gain weight and his appetite was making him broke. I wouldn't take one person's experiment as proof that it's not possible to get fat by eating fruits, she may well be one of those lucky people whose body doesn't seem to stockpile a lot of fat.

Freelee the Banana Girl used to be fat, then she lost weight and became a fitness model just by eating healthy.

I know quite a few who eat a lot yet are really skinny. Most of them are Asians so it's obvious genetics is the main factor at play. In college, I even dated one (in fact, the only one I know in that group who is not Asian) and she wanted to pay for what she ate because she apparently feels bad if someone else has to pay for it.

[chickenHeadKnob]

There was a huge historical scandal in the UK over the number of Hemophiliacs contracting and dying of HIV and Hepatitis-C due to the use of imported blood products. In the NHS, blood donations are exactly that, we bleed for free. OK the system isn't perfect, there's always a need more donors, but donors have no reason to lie about their medical status or history.

Edit: I don't know how much of an issue contaminated blood products is in the US?  It's hard to believe that we were just sold the 'bad' stuff.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_tainted_blood_scandal

Edit 1: Just curious, how many other countries do pay for blood donations?

OK this is wandering off-topic into the political realm but:
Canada has voluntary whole blood donations but was also caught-up into the factor 8 scandal. I personally know a (Canadian) hemophiliac who contracted hep C and became very sick. The wiki article you linked briefly mentions the dangerous manufacturing method for factor 8 used at the time but it actually was mind boggling stupidly negligent. They would take the paid  plasma donations from up to 8000 !  prisoners and junkies and place them into one stainless steel mixing vat where just one bad apple would spoil the brew. This mixing was a compounding amplifier of the paid donor source risk. They showed the vat on TV news and I had a literal face palm reaction.

You know one of Bill Clinton's early scandals while serving as Arkansas governor  was that  of the prison blood collection racket:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_8:_The_Arkansas_Prison_Blood_Scandal

[ttelectronic]

The problem is that those who live an unhealthy lifestyle unfairly take more from the system than those who live a healthy lifestyle, thus raising cost for everyone. Taxing junk food is one way to try to level that. Note that I'm not biased against those who incur large medical costs due to misfortune like what happened to Simone - just those who got into it through bad choices of their own.

To make an analogy, why should a driver who has had a spotless driving record for 10 years pay as much for car insurance as someone who regularly runs red lights, drives way above the speed limit, and has been in several serious accidents in the last 10 years?

Funny, we also have goverment car insurance, so ..... 

However, this is the current insurance rate in our province. You tell me if that sounds to costly for you and unfair?
[see attached]
I have thin relatives, fat relatives, healthier and less healthier lifestyles and yes, even the fitter are running into medical problems. I still care about them all as family, how about you?

[james_s]

That chart doesn't have enough information to say. Is that for liability only coverage? Does it cover your own vehicle too? How high is the limit to the coverage? Does it matter what kind of car you drive or what your driving record is like?

For reference I pay about $50/month for liability and personal injury protection on a 34 year old car with a squeaky clean record. While I dislike insurance companies rather intensely I still have less issue with that being a for-profit business than medical care. I can choose not to drive a car if it really comes down to it and it won't kill me. The way the health insurance is now I'm required to have it *and* it's provided by for-profit corporations with absolutely no cost controls.