Author Topic: Small electronics company wants to compete on price with huge Electronics co's  (Read 1626 times)

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Online Kjelt

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Or buy the front of the ferrari and built a led lamp from it and sell it for £790000 goes quicker that way.
 
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Offline MK14

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Your idea, is still NOT crazy enough. Google was able to find someone who has done it already, or at least fairly similar.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 06:47:16 am by MK14 »
 
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Offline rstofer

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thanks, yes, i agree with you, and this is why  the UK must abide by the recommendations of the "Revive British Industry" campaign...
https://massey276.wixsite.com/revive

Anything with a hint of protectionism (like government owned businesses) is an all-lose situation.  You charge the taxpayers for the privilege of overpaying for goods.  They get hit for the cost of running the business and then they get to overpay for the products.  In general, people don't like this idea.

We, in the first world countries, don't want to see our way of living reduced to that of third world countries.  That is understandable.  But we can't keep what we have if we also include barriers to trade.

So, as bad as it seems, we need to step away from low level manufacturing.  Sure, cars and airplanes can be competitive but not T-shirts and jeans.  We need to walk away from those things and take up technology.

The US doesn't have the lowest manufacturing cost in the world, far from it.  What we do have is creativity.  We don't build magic but we do invent it.  For that you need to world's best educated work force.  We're a little light on that but, overall, we're in pretty good shape.  We have some great institutions as do many other countries.

Why is Silicon Valley so successful?  Stanford University - simple as that.  The best education breeding startup companies like puppies.  Some succeed, some fail, but if enough startups succeed we make a lot of money.  We (California) used to build airplanes and still do to some extent but it's nothing like the days after WWII and up through the cold war.  People whose only skill was bucking rivets are unemployable today.  People who design avionics will always have a job.

So, as to that "Revive British Industry" document, I think the part about encouraging STEM education is absolutely the right thing to do.  The bit about having government owned businesses, maybe not so much.  The government, any government, is not going to run an efficient business.

I was in 7th grade, I believe, when Sputnik was launched.  Unless you were there, you couldn't imagine the shift in focus.  Everybody had to really get into math and science.  No more fooling around with navel gazing, we had things to learn.  Everybody had to go to engineering school.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 06:58:43 am by rstofer »
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Trying to compete with big companies for what are universal "jellybean" products like LED drivers makes no sense.
If there are reasons you need an own-brand product, buy in and badge something from China.
The only way you can succeed is if you fill a special niche that's too small for the big guys, but big enough to be worthwhile.
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Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
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Offline MK14

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Trying to compete with big companies for what are universal "jellybean" products like LED drivers makes no sense.

But it can make sense to at least one person. I.e. OP/Treez.
Hopefully, we can persuade the OP/Treez, that his idea may not be a good business/government plan.
EDIT: I'm disappointed, that the business where he works, seems to be trying out that very strategy.
It could go, badly wrong.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 07:00:31 am by MK14 »
 
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Offline rstofer

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If you want to play in the big leagues, you need to make the rules.

When Jack Welch ran GE, he had a rule for the business segments:  If they weren't number one in the market or number two with a chance of becoming number one, he sold off the business.  Only the leader can set the price.  ...

Instead of growing or developing the business, including (first) doing a decent business plan - this is the corporate cancer: demand the business unit be number one or off with your head.

GE sucks badly lately, so I wonder if this "swing the axe" rule is good for anything other than war.

It worked very well under Jack Welch.  His successors have been totally incompetent.

I think maybe GE shot themselves in the foot when they sold off GE Capital.  At one time they were the profit leaders of GE.  They owned more airplanes than any airline, they owned more railroad rolling stock than any railroad and a vast number of containers hauling cargo were owned by GE.  Plus consumer credit, of course.

They got badly hurt in the 2008 meltdown and I guess GE didn't see a way to resurrect that business.  Now that the markets have fully recovered, GE isn't benefiting.  Too bad...

Or, one could argue that Jack Welch was a unique individual running a business during a unique period of time.  "He got lucky!".  I'm not buying that, he was a genius!
 
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Online Benta

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"treez", this is the last post from me as to your threads on street lighting. I'm fed up with the whining.

Your company is doomed if it keeps following the business model of making LED drivers for street lighting. There are very big companies already doing this, and they don't just offer the drivers - they offer the complete street lamp including mast, excavation, cabling and installation. And they have 100s of engineers developing this, plus a sales force that knows exactly how to address public utilities and municipalities.

This market is NOT for a SMB.

YOUR market is niche, and that's where you can excel! Designer lighting, architectural lighting, mood lighting, club lighting and so on. Applications where tailor-made solutions are sought.

Go actively find designers and architects that need your kind of know-how. Then you're suddenly in a high-margin business.

Sorry for the harsh tone, but after reading dozens of your threads I felt it had to be said.
No offense intended, I hope you find success.
 
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Online coppercone2

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where is this quality chinese factory?

and, don't you just feel personally violated by 49/51? chinese government should get their own ferraries off my back because they let me exploit their peons or something? i'd rather sleep at night. who the hell takes 51%, thats a legitimate take over.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 08:54:09 am by coppercone2 »
 
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Offline MK14

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where is this quality chinese factory?

and, don't you just feel personally violated by 49/51? chinese government should get their own ferraries off my back because they let me exploit their peons or something? i'd rather sleep at night

WARNING: To correct a possible misunderstanding. This post has had this warning added to it. It is a joke post!

It is in a very secret place, which even if I was under immense pressure, I'd never reveal to you.

Ok, here it is:
http://www.globalsources.com/NEWS/SIC-6-crucial-steps-sourcing-good-factory-china.HTM

How to get out of the 49%:51% and similar issues. again, I'd never tell you.

Ok, here it is:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/world/china-watch/business/shanghai-encourages-foreign-startups/

As to the Ferrari, again I'd never tell or show you how or what that gets sorted out.

Ok, here it is:


WARNING: To correct a possible misunderstanding. This post has had this warning added to it. It is a joke post!
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 09:20:56 am by MK14 »
 
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Online coppercone2

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did you even read it? does anyone here look like a graduate from a chinese university? that whole article reads like a puff piece from some comrades

and that picture in that article about factories looks like something someone set up out of a apartment.

surely your joking? unless you mean I should look for a patsy that graduated from a Chinese university and then trust or find a way to control him so I can run my business? their probably a bit 'culturally (r)educated' after going to a Chinese university man..
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 09:04:47 am by coppercone2 »
 
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Offline MK14

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did you even read it? does anyone here look like a graduate from a chinese university? that whole article reads like a puff piece from some comrades

and that picture in that article about factories looks like something someone set up out of a apartment.

surely your joking?

You are exactly right, yes I was being light hearted. It was a joke.

The original concept. That it can be considerably cheaper to get things done in China, rather than the west, is basically potentially true.
BUT I did not spend the time and effort, spending 6 months (say), researching specifically how to do a real/proper start up in China, vs the UK or West. Because I don't have that specific experience, so I made stuff up.
But the jist of it, is hopefully at least partly true, to try and explain the concept in this thread. It was intended to be obvious that I was being light hearted.
E.g. I probably don't have an identical twin in real life, who is also technically minded. Etc etc.

WARNING: I've amended the original post, with a somewhat big warning message. That it is done in a light-hearted way.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 09:17:35 am by MK14 »
 
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Offline MK14

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I.e. It perhaps would cost me £100 to get a small prototype set of small scale PCBs manufactured in the UK.

The same set of prototype PCBs, at less, but still quite good quality, would perhaps cost only £20 from Chinese PCB suppliers.

So what I was saying, is similar to that. Just scaled up a lot, for LED light production.
 
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Online Kjelt

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We, in the first world countries, don't want to see our way of living reduced to that of third world countries.  That is understandable.  But we can't keep what we have if we also include barriers to trade.

So, as bad as it seems, we need to step away from low level manufacturing.  Sure, cars and airplanes can be competitive but not T-shirts and jeans.  We need to walk away from those things and take up technology.

The US doesn't have the lowest manufacturing cost in the world, far from it.  What we do have is creativity.  We don't build magic but we do invent it.  For that you need to world's best educated work force.  We're a little light on that but, overall, we're in pretty good shape.  We have some great institutions as do many other countries.
Perhaps it is my poor perception of the US but it seems the brightest minds are imported from abroad for big $.
How are americans doing in education anno 2018 ? How is the level of highschool education at the moment? Last time I checked it was mediocre.

Still, every country has a huge population and if only the 10% brightest are usefull there is a big problem. Those 90% also need jobs and good living standards because then they buy stuff that helps the economy. Your country is at the moment IMO a poor example of how we need to distribute wealth over the population. I believe your 1% richest have 99% of the wealth and someone also gave them huge tax cuts so they don't pay much tax either. The result well you can figure it out on your own but to give a hint it gets worse and worse each year. No I am not a communist but capitalism is starting to fail when the money is not circulating but hoarded by a few privileged ;)
Nr 1 solution is a lot of decent payed jobs and I don't see only technology generate that many jobs, au contraire, the amount of jobs in electronics have decreased over the years in the as you call it 1st world countries. I see a future in a lot a lot of small businesses each serving a niche product or service. The big companies like GE are dinosaurs and getting extinct. You can't do everything and be the best in everything you need to focus. But that is how I think about it.

To get back on topic: building your own LED drivers might not be a good market opportunity, installing and servicing them (24/7 service?) can be, if someone wants that badly enough to pay for it.
 
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Online xaxaxa

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where is this quality chinese factory?

and, don't you just feel personally violated by 49/51? chinese government should get their own ferraries off my back because they let me exploit their peons or something? i'd rather sleep at night. who the hell takes 51%, thats a legitimate take over.

I think you just need to have the company owned by a chinese citizen. Plus you can always just operate without ever registering a business. In practice most small companies and individual merchants don't, and no one pays tax either. (sales tax is never paid unless a receipt is issued.)
 
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Online Mr. Scram

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Perhaps it is my poor perception of the US but it seems the brightest minds are imported from abroad for big $.
How are americans doing in education anno 2018 ? How is the level of highschool education at the moment? Last time I checked it was mediocre.

Still, every country has a huge population and if only the 10% brightest are usefull there is a big problem. Those 90% also need jobs and good living standards because then they buy stuff that helps the economy. Your country is at the moment IMO a poor example of how we need to distribute wealth over the population. I believe your 1% richest have 99% of the wealth and someone also gave them huge tax cuts so they don't pay much tax either. The result well you can figure it out on your own but to give a hint it gets worse and worse each year. No I am not a communist but capitalism is starting to fail when the money is not circulating but hoarded by a few privileged ;)
Nr 1 solution is a lot of decent payed jobs and I don't see only technology generate that many jobs, au contraire, the amount of jobs in electronics have decreased over the years in the as you call it 1st world countries. I see a future in a lot a lot of small businesses each serving a niche product or service. The big companies like GE are dinosaurs and getting extinct. You can't do everything and be the best in everything you need to focus. But that is how I think about it.

To get back on topic: building your own LED drivers might not be a good market opportunity, installing and servicing them (24/7 service?) can be, if someone wants that badly enough to pay for it.
The US isn't doing so well when it comes to education. There are a few well know flagship schools and examples that seem to dominate the discussion, but those also seem to obscure reality. The average or mean student isn't great when compared to those of other advanced industrial nations and you need those numbers to get anywhere. A few stellar examples won't cut it.
 
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Offline rstofer

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The US isn't doing so well when it comes to education. There are a few well know flagship schools and examples that seem to dominate the discussion, but those also seem to obscure reality. The average or mean student isn't great when compared to those of other advanced industrial nations and you need those numbers to get anywhere. A few stellar examples won't cut it.

Well, as uneducated as we are, an awful lot of innovation starts in the US.

One reason is that the cost of entry into becoming a business isn't terribly high and there are risk takers willing to put money into a good idea.  Sure, they're going to take a sizable chunk of the ownership but that's the way capitalism works.  There were a huge number of multi-millionaires created the day Facebook went public.

We're having a  problem defining equality in financial terms.  The right's definition is equality at the starting line.  Everybody has the opportunity to get a good education at a reasonable cost but they have to do the work.  The left wants equality at the finish; equal outcome without equal effort.  That isn't going to happen!

California is the 5th largest economy in the world but we have the highest poverty rate in the US when housing is included.  The median home price is over $500k.  Why?  Because we make it easy to be poor.  We have programs for everything!

Kids have exactly one choice:  Get a really good education and work in STEM.  If not, flip burgers for a living because the jobs in the middle are going away.  There'll still be a lot of jobs in retail and quite a few in manufacturing (and some of those pay well) but as the US shifts to a technology based society, you're either in or  you're out.  You can either write code or you're going to go hungry (not literally but close).

Our top universities are pretty good.  Cal-Tech, MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Harvard, and that bunch.  But our state universities are also pretty good as are the state colleges (even the community colleges).  The students who complete the programs and can't find a job chose the wrong major.  Trust me, there's no point in majoring in navel gazing.

I wish we did a better job teaching math in the lower grades.  The problem may just be that the teachers don't understand it either.  Given that Calc I is supposed to be the first math course upon entry to a STEM program, there is the assumption that the incoming students have already mastered Algebra, Geometry and Trig.  Unfortunately, our high schools don't always meet that need.  There are a number of societal reasons for this but an incoming student will almost always have to spend a year taking Pre-Calc.  The 5 year STEM program just stretched out to 6.

We have a problem segregating students and this keeps the 'average' level of achievement in the lower grades at a pretty low level.  By chance, there are dull/disinterested/disruptive students and bright students in a class and the material will be taught to the lowest common denominator and that's pretty low.  There are some charter schools working on this but it isn't going to be enough.  We really need a scheme for dividing up the classes.  The AP concept helps but that starts in high school (I think) and that's pretty late.

In effect, education doesn't really kick into high gear until college.

And, yes, we import bright people from all over the world.  I would like to see us pick up the pace on that.  Go out and harvest all the brain power we can get!
 
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Online coppice

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Well, as uneducated as we are, an awful lot of innovation starts in the US.
The education problems in the US are mostly in the schools. Over half the founders of startups reaching IPO in the US were not born in the US, but many received their university education there.

I wish we did a better job teaching math in the lower grades.  The problem may just be that the teachers don't understand it either.  Given that Calc I is supposed to be the first math course upon entry to a STEM program, there is the assumption that the incoming students have already mastered Algebra, Geometry and Trig.  Unfortunately, our high schools don't always meet that need.  There are a number of societal reasons for this but an incoming student will almost always have to spend a year taking Pre-Calc.  The 5 year STEM program just stretched out to 6.
Most countries have trashed their maths education. When I was at school in the UK in the 60s and early 70s I spent over half my maths lessons between 14 and 18 studying calculus. Today they start calculus far later, and don't get that deep into it before finishing school. They haven't added much alternative material to replace the calculus which has been dropped. When I talk with people my age in places like India and China they all complain of similar lowering standards they see in their children's education. When you see reports of high maths standards in Asian schools, they aren't all that impressive by historic standards. The quality of people hasn't degraded, but what is expected of them has.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Until we separate the students who can and will from those who can't or won't, our mandatory lower level education system is doomed to fail.  Then the burden falls on the community colleges to pick up the slack and get the students ready for their major.

I worked in Singapore for a while and I was impressed by their education system.  What really amazed me was walking into McD's late in the afternoon and seeing the back section of the dining room filled with middle school kids doing their homework.  No food fights, no grab assing, just good solid work.  It was a sight!

But their parents are relentless on education.  Everybody understands that what they will achieve in life will be a function of their education.

I really admire Singapore and their leadership!


 
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Offline Bassman59

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Perhaps it is my poor perception of the US but it seems the brightest minds are imported from abroad for big $.
How are americans doing in education anno 2018 ? How is the level of highschool education at the moment? Last time I checked it was mediocre.

The biggest problem with education in the US is that a small group of very rich people have decided that they have no interest in funding public education at the levels required to maintain excellence. To that end, they've run a some long-game parallel tasks meant to disrupt public education.

One is to broadcast propaganda on a particular cable TV channel saying that "taxes are bad, you should demand tax cuts everywhere."

A second is to fund the candidacies of elected officials who agree with the "taxes bad" premise, and to fund smear campaigns against candidates who recognize that taxes are needed to fund necessary public programs.

A third is to demonize teachers and teaching as a profession ("that lazy teacher only works 9 months out of the year!"), so that voters in local districts see schools as a drain on public money. Part of this is demonization of education and intelligence, calling people with college degrees "elites" and the like. (Perversely, many of the people calling those with college educations "elites" are products of the most elite universities in the country! But they know their audience and feed them the nonsense anyway.)

A fourth is to use standardized testing to identify "failing" schools, and use the test scores as a cudgel to say, "Your school isn't meeting our standards, therefore we will cut funding to it." Which, of course, is exactly the wrong thing to do. And while people on the ground can identify the reasons why schools "fail" (hint: poverty is the number one reason for lack of achievement in schools, this is a conclusion not up for debate), for obvious reasons the people controlling the purse are not listening and are not interested in those reasons.

And the fifth combines all of the above to reduce funding for public education at all levels.

Make no mistake: there are a LOT of very bright kids here. The problem is that too many of them never get any opportunity to capitalize on their intelligence.  A lot of kids are born with two strikes against them and there's a fastball coming at them all the time.
 
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Online coppercone2

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where is this quality chinese factory?

and, don't you just feel personally violated by 49/51? chinese government should get their own ferraries off my back because they let me exploit their peons or something? i'd rather sleep at night. who the hell takes 51%, thats a legitimate take over.

I think you just need to have the company owned by a chinese citizen. Plus you can always just operate without ever registering a business. In practice most small companies and individual merchants don't, and no one pays tax either. (sales tax is never paid unless a receipt is issued.)

thats pretty shady
 
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Online Mr. Scram

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"treez", this is the last post from me as to your threads on street lighting. I'm fed up with the whining.

Your company is doomed if it keeps following the business model of making LED drivers for street lighting. There are very big companies already doing this, and they don't just offer the drivers - they offer the complete street lamp including mast, excavation, cabling and installation. And they have 100s of engineers developing this, plus a sales force that knows exactly how to address public utilities and municipalities.

This market is NOT for a SMB.

YOUR market is niche, and that's where you can excel! Designer lighting, architectural lighting, mood lighting, club lighting and so on. Applications where tailor-made solutions are sought.

Go actively find designers and architects that need your kind of know-how. Then you're suddenly in a high-margin business.

Sorry for the harsh tone, but after reading dozens of your threads I felt it had to be said.
No offense intended, I hope you find success.
The solution is RGB streetlights, preferably with a stroboscope setting.
 
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Online tggzzz

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"treez", this is the last post from me as to your threads on street lighting. I'm fed up with the whining.

Your company is doomed if it keeps following the business model of making LED drivers for street lighting. There are very big companies already doing this, and they don't just offer the drivers - they offer the complete street lamp including mast, excavation, cabling and installation. And they have 100s of engineers developing this, plus a sales force that knows exactly how to address public utilities and municipalities.

This market is NOT for a SMB.

YOUR market is niche, and that's where you can excel! Designer lighting, architectural lighting, mood lighting, club lighting and so on. Applications where tailor-made solutions are sought.

Go actively find designers and architects that need your kind of know-how. Then you're suddenly in a high-margin business.

Sorry for the harsh tone, but after reading dozens of your threads I felt it had to be said.
No offense intended, I hope you find success.

I too hope he finds success, but I suspect he is operating in such a small market that the other inhabitants can guess who he is. (No, I don't know, and don't want to know).

He has the air of a computer engineer in this old joke...

Three engineers are riding in a car. One is a mechanical engineer, one is an electrical engineer, and one is a computer engineer. The car breaks down and coasts to the side of the road.

"Hang on," says the mechanical engineer. "The problem is probably the engine, let me have a look at it and I'll have us on the road again in no time."

"Wait," says the electrical engineer. "The way it just stopped like that, I think it's the electrical system. Let me have a look and I'll get us going again in a minute or two."

"Hold on," says the computer engineer. "Why don't we all just get out of the car and get in again, and then see if it starts?"
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Gliding aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline MK14

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Since you just told a joke, it is too tempting for me.

If and when I eventually die, I want to die, very peacefully in my sleep, just like my great grandfather did.
Not screaming in abject terror and complete horror. Like the passengers my great grandfather, was giving a lift to, when he fell asleep and crashed.
 
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Offline mrpackethead

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goign back to the OP, try lcsc.com they are the digikey of china. 
 
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Offline Gyro

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"Hold on," says the computer engineer. "Why don't we all just get out of the car and get in again, and then see if it starts?"

I prefer the version where the s/w engineer says "Let's push the car back up to the top of the hill and see if the brakes burn out again".  :)
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 
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