Soldering risks Advice please

[stk]

Hi all I need some advice on soldering.

For the last two years I have been getting very ill and I am not 100% sure but it all ways seems to be around the time I have done some soldering.

I wake up in the morning with very bad belly and of course what goes with that and later in the day I all so start being sick.

When I solder I do so in my garage so its not a really small room but I am leaning over the smoke that comes from it.

As for the amount of time its not all ways more than 30mins.

I do not have an extractor BTW.

Does soldering do this to some people?.
Towards the end of the day I start to feel a bit better all be it extremely dehydrated.

[Rerouter]

standard solder uses a flux known as a rosin core,

this flux is a mid level carcenogenic (bad for lungs), and is why they so heavily reccomend extractors,
if your mouth is feeling dry its because you are breathing in excessive amounts of the stuff,

[stk]

Thanks for the reply.

I will cut to the chase

I wake up with extreme stomach cramps and then I have diorhea all day real bad and then sickness.

I have IBS any way and the doctors think I may have some kind of blockage but I was just trying to cover all areas.

I use to use white metal at work and it all seemed to start back then but I have not done any now for 2 years and still get t so I cant see it being that still?.


All you advice is much appreciated as I need to get to the bottom of this thanks

[Rerouter]

mate, in short dont breath it in, other than that, it would be unwise of any of us to try and diagnose you over the internet being i would presume none of us are doctors or chemists,

[Psi]

Everyone responds to chemicals differently so its definitely possible that the solder fumes are to blame.

However i think it's statistically unlikely, unless you have some other condition which is being exacerbated by the solder fumes or your having an allergic reaction to something in the fumes. [i'm not a doctor or chemist]

A couple of times when i've done a lot of soldering i have noticed an upset stomach.
I'm really not sure its related though as it doesn't happen often enough to draw any conclusions.
And its very mild.

I cant say I've ever noticed a dry mouth as said above.

But yeah, as people have already said, get a fan so there's an airflow over your work area.
You can get a proper fume extractor with filter but they don't really work unless they are up close.
Most people turn them around and use them to blow air across the table.

[stk]

Hi I totally agree.

I am not after a diagnoses I am asking if any one else here who does more soldering than me has ever had this?.

I will be making an extractor fan to remove it from the workshop before I do any more soldering but I was wondering if any one else has had these effects after soldering before.

Thanks

[saturation]

A simple rule is not to breath the fumes of anything, to not get its effect; it could be unhealthy or not, but why risk it?  Make sure you have good ventilation where you work, an exhaust fan or a fume extactor.

The contents of most solder can be found in the MSDS sheets of the maker, and its potential health hazards.

[Psi]

Are you using normal solder?

The fumes from lead free solder are much worse than normal solder.

[vtl]

If you solder in a room for hours without ventilation the fumes eventually end up being distributed everywhere. Because of the gradual buildup you probably won't notice but anyone walking in will notice immediately. As long as you open a window or leave the door open it should be fine.

[Psi]

It's a bit fringe sciencey but you could try touching some solder and just see what it 'feels' like.
Yes, i know how that sounds, bear with me for a sec, it's quite valid.

With some reactions to metals/chemical your body/brain will start to tell you something is wrong.
While the symptom itself can be quite obvious any body/brain response/hint to the cause will start mild.
The substance responsible might just feel a bit odd when you touch it.
Then it turns into wanting to put the stuff down right after picking it up.
Eventually you start feeling ill as soon as you touch it.
It probably has a medical name, i just don't know it. but it's a real thing.

I have no idea if it's applicable in this case but it's something to keep in mind in case you notice anything like that.

[Pickers]

Even if the solder fumes are not making you ill, I'd really suggest getting some form of extraction. A simple well positioned computer fan to suck the fumes out of your way is better than nothing.

Regards
Kris.

[G7PSK]

Are you soldering Zinc or zinc rich metals as the symptoms you describe are for Zinc fumes which is why you should never weld galvanized metal the fumes will give you stomach cramps and the trots, You can get the same from the zinc fumes released from hot brass Just ask a tank gunner from WW2 where the hot cases were ejected onto their laps in a confined space that and the cordite fumes gave them brown trousers.

[Psi]

Good point.

I think some lead free solders may contain some zinc.

[stk]

Thanks for the reply`s I will look at me solder in a bit and get back to you all.

I got it from Maplins about a year ago.

[alm]

What's the expected zinc vapor pressure at typical soldering temperatures? My guess is that it's extremely low. Welding involves much higher temperatures.

[baljemmett]

I got it from Maplins about a year ago.

I don't think Maplin have sold leaded solder for quite some time -- last time I needed some in a hurry they only had lead-free, and that must be about five years ago now.  So yeah, ventilation is an even stronger recommendation for the fumes from lead-free soldering, as I understand it!

[IanB]

When I solder I find the rising plume of flux fumes always seems magnetically attracted to my face. Needless to say, breathing in those fumes is bad and definitely to be avoided. What I do is use a small gentle fan wafting air across my work surface. This directs the fumes away from my face and allows me to breath fresh air. I solder in a large ventilated space so the accumulation of fumes in the air is not a problem. But if soldering in a small room like a study or office then an open window or extractor fan would be a good idea.

[Armin_Balija]

Try getting a respirator as well as a fume extractor. That's what I do and I haven't had a problem since. type N95 are the best, they filter out everything and are common practice in pharmaceutical companies.

EDIT: To be fair, while some people might call this overkill I just recently underwent a double lung transplant so I've been extremely cautious and this is what the doctor recommended.

[alm]

Try getting a respirator as well as a fume extractor. That's what I do and I haven't had a problem since. type N95 are the best, they filter out everything

Which is why N99 and P100 respirators exist, I guess. Did you look into the types of particles and fumes produced by soldering and verify that they will not penetrate an N95 filter? I haven't, but I wouldn't assume a random mask not designed for this purpose to provide adequate protection.

and are common practice in pharmaceutical companies.

Pharmaceutical companies are very concerned with protecting their employees from flux vapors?

[G7PSK]

The symptoms are not lead poisoning with that You get nerve damage and your gums turn blue and your teeth fall out in extreme cases it does sound like metal fume fever from Zinc do you get a dry mouth and a sweet taste the other symptoms coming on over night is classical for Zinc chills, smelter shakes or brass founders ague as metal fume fever has been called in the past.

You also get similar problems from cadmium in much smaller doses.

[PeteInTexas]

While you definitely should not inhale solder fumes, don't forget to investigate what else is in your garage!  Are there other chemicals stored there (cleaning, automotive, paints)?  What about trash?  What about sewage pipes?  Dead animals?

[vk6zgo]

It's a bit fringe sciencey but you could try touching some solder and just see what it 'feels' like.
Yes, i know how that sounds, bear with me for a sec, it's quite valid.

With some reactions to metals/chemical your body/brain will start to tell you something is wrong.
While the symptom itself can be quite obvious any body/brain response/hint to the cause will start mild.
The substance responsible might just feel a bit odd when you touch it.
Then it turns into wanting to put the stuff down right after picking it up.
Eventually you start feeling ill as soon as you touch it.
It probably has a medical name, i just don't know it. but it's a real thing.
I have no idea if it's applicable in this case but it's something to keep in mind in case you notice anything like that.

I'm not sure how the above works,but I do know that you can be affected by allergens contacted in a different way to that normally encountered.

I have an allergy to the pollen of Australia's National flower,the Wattle,& inhaling this causes Asthma.
When I was a kid,it was a major problem,but as I became older,it diminished to the point that I hardly notice it.
I went to a Shopping Centre where they were giving away biscuits with Wattle seeds on them.

I thought,--"Seeds,not Pollen,& besides,it doesn't affect me much these days".
The biscuits were delicious,but within minutes,I began to feel sick.
My daughter,who was with me ,went to the Chemist,& bought a Ventolin Inhaler--after 2 puffs,I was OK.

I have never tried just placing Wattle products on my skin,but it possibly may affect me that way.

I agree with the comments re zinc--I have tried melting brass with an Oxy-Acetylene torch---NOT a good idea!!
I've brazed Galvanised Iron with only a few mild symptoms,but that was in the open air.

The symptoms of Zinc inhalation I experienced,were nausea & headaches mainly.
Zinc fumes are initially,not unpleasant,but soon assume a sickly,cloying nature.At about this point ,a pounding headache & nausea begin.
You may be allergic to the Flux---overheated Liquid Resin Flux causes "a catch in my throat",but nothing much else.
I have spilt Flux on my skin ,& it burns slightly,but nothing more.

VK6ZGO

[Ajahn Lambda]

Another vote for a possible allergic reaction occurring.  An upset stomach and feeling like ass all day (not in a good way, with that last symptom! ) are hallmarks of allergic reactions, particularly the types where the allergen is inhaled or swallowed, in addition to the classical hives, itching, swelling, etc.  I've experienced these enough to know the feeling all too well.


Peanut products are my cyanide; the last time I had a reaction was due to accidentally eating an Oreo...with a peanut filling.  I was sick for four days, basically lived in the bathroom, and went through a whole box of Benadryl just to keep the symptoms in check.

Speaking of Benadryl, that'd be a great 'check' to see if it's an allergic reaction you're experiencing:  pop a Benadryl or two before soldering, maybe 15-30 minutes beforehand, and see if your reaction changes.  If your symptoms diminish or are nonexistent, well, there's your answer: you're likely (though not definitively) allergic to the flux.

Why would anyone be allergic to flux?  Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia to explain:

There are three types of rosin: gum rosin (from pine tree oleoresin), wood rosin (obtained by extraction of tree stumps), and tall oil rosin (obtained from tall oil, a byproduct of kraft paper process). Gum rosin has milder odor and lower tendency to crystallize from solutions than wood rosin, is therefore preferred for flux applications. Tall oil rosin finds increased use due to its higher thermal stability and therefore lower tendency to form insoluble thermal decomposition residues. The composition and quality of rosin differs by the tree type, and also by location and even by year. In Europe, rosin for fluxes is usually obtained from a specific type of Portuguese pine, in America a North Carolina variant is used.

Notice that two of the three come directly from trees, the source of many allergies.  So it's not all that far-fetched to think that it could be what's setting off your system; the smoke makes the allergen airborne, and doesn't really destroy it as much as many people would like to think.

Just an FYI, Benadryl is diphenhydramine HCl, comes in a zillion store brands and generics, and should be stocked in every first aid kit.

For the record, I love soldering with zinc chloride flux.    I really don't buy the 'lead free is more dangerous' argument.  Almost every flux I have used in electronics has been some form of rosin, and at least as far as I've been able to discern, there's not a huge difference between their chemical components.  At least as far as the MSDS for any of them have told me.  The only real difference I can think of is that the lead-free solders require a bit higher temperature, and so if we're getting a different level/type of chemical exposure due to the increase in temperature, then that's plausible.

That said, I do use a home-made fume extraction unit while soldering in the lab, and open the window.

[G7PSK]

What are the reasons for lead free solder, there is so much lead in other products, The argument I have seen put foward in the UK is in case a toddler chews a circuit board, how would the said toddler get the bare board to chew and if it had already eaten the case of the remote for the tv it has already choked to death on bits of plastic and smd's and chips.
Lead free solder dissolves copper or rather the tin does that is why the soldering iron needs plating as the reaction happens faster at elevated temperatures but still goes on at lower temperature, In extreme cases it has eaten right through copper wires and boards have failed as a result lead free with silver is better but to prevent the erosion requires more than 2% silver raising the melt point. There was an article in the American Welding Society magazine a few years back.

[Psi]

I think the issues are with PCB getting into landfills and the lead leaching out into the water table.

With lots of throwaway electronics and people changing their cellphone every 6months that's a lot of PCBs being buried every year.

[G7PSK]

But in Europe all pcb's are supposed to be recycled and most are. I expect that far more lead from other sources finds its way into land fill there is lead in many steels especially ones which have to be machined or deep drawn or rolled in many areas that finds its way into land fill.

[benemorius]

But in Europe all pcb's are supposed to be recycled and most are. I expect that far more lead from other sources finds its way into land fill there is lead in many steels especially ones which have to be machined or deep drawn or rolled in many areas that finds its way into land fill.

Yep. You're slowly working your way through all the bullshit toward the answer to your question. When you get there, you'll find that you've narrowed it down to a single word: bureaucracy.

[gregariz]

I think the issues are with PCB getting into landfills and the lead leaching out into the water table.

With lots of throwaway electronics and people changing their cellphone every 6months that's a lot of PCBs being buried every year.

I wonder if the burn rate has gone up amongst recyclers because they are going to need to use blowtorches to get the parts off.

[stk]

Wow so many reply`s.

I am not ignoring any other possibility`s I just wanted to know if soldering could do this and here is me answer yes its possible.

I have a large tub of Flux I wonder if its that.

I will take pictures of the solder and flux I use and post it on here to see if you lot spot any higher than normal dosages of some thing.

And yes I do get head aches after I solder and my eyes feel like crap.

This is not every time I solder just when I assume I have done it for a loner period of time.

Thanks so much for the info guys.

I will in future get a fan and maybe even a mask.

What about wearing latex gloves as to even avoid touching any thing with the solder and flux on suppose it wont hurt to try?.

EDIT

Just to add when I have done soldering for longer periods of time I all so notice the whites of my eyes look yellow and then I get head aches and then the craps and sickness ummm the more I think about this the more I am hoping I am right at least I have a reason for the 2.5 years of illnesses.

[sonicj]

I definitely have some sort of allergy related to flux.  When i solder with RMA (rosin mildly activated) I will wake up the next day with my eyes glued shut. Its pretty gross. Haven't paid much attention to respiratory or digestive problems as I've pretty much quit using RMA. I do kinda recall not feeling "right" the next day. I now have some kester liquid flux pens I use if I have to. One is water soluble, the other is a no clean but I am pretty careful about avoiding the fumes and haven't had any major reactions since. Changing solders also seemed to help. I now use no-clean (low activation) rosin core Kester SN63/PB37.  I think the activator is more my issue than the rosin... Not sure, but I'll start paying closer attention.

Also, I now wear nitrile gloves anytime I solder. They conform very tightly to you skin allowing very little change in dexterity. If you decide to purchase some, make sure you get them so they fit tight; loose fittings gloves are a nuisance, properly fitting gloves go unnoticed.

One more thought... If you are soldering in the garage and have the ability to vent the fumes outside (aka: cut a hole in the wall), then you probably want to go that route over the filter.  Something like a small fan, dryer hose, and dryer exhaust louvers can work with minimal modification to the home/shop.  Bathroom exhaust fans and kitchen range hoods are other options along those lines. 
-sj

[stk]

Hi mate yeah I was going to use a bathroom extractor and some kind of piping system to get rid of the fumes.

I all ways wear tight fitting latex gloves like you I hate loose gloves really bugs me LOL.

[alm]

Until you develop latex allergy

[Psi]

I wouldn't recommend latex gloves, nitrile are much better.
They're thinner and easier to wear while working.

[stk]

Until you develop latex allergy

Nope definitely not allergic to latex .

[Armin_Balija]

I wouldn't recommend latex gloves, nitrile are much better.
They're thinner and easier to wear while working.

I only use nitrile gloves. Way easier to work with and hug the skin.

[stk]

Yeah I have used nitrile befor reason is latex ones would just break up with the chemicals I used at work.

I will get some nitrile ones then.

Thanks

[saturation]

Abandon latex.  For one, it will dissolve in organic solvents.  Nitrile is more inert and stable.  Its a common component of o rings.

One complaint against nitrile has been 'feel', latex fits like a glove so it gave fingers good tactile sensation.  What most users do is use one size smaller than your hand so it fits very tight.

[stk]

Yep thats what I did at work use a smaller size.

And yeah I do like the feel of latex gave a little more grip to.

[IanB]

I really dislike the way those gloves make my hand get drenched with sweat inside the glove. Two possible alternatives are barrier cream or cotton gloves. You shouldn't really need nitrile or latex gloves unless you are working with liquids.

[Conrad Hoffman]

Ventilation is good, but hardly anybody has a problem with traditional solder and fluxes. If you've had a metal fume problem in the past, you might be sensitized now. I know this can occur with epoxy and certain photo developers, but have no idea if it happens with anything related to soldering. With those things, once a person reacts and becomes sensitized, they can't even be in the same room with the stuff.

[alm]

One difference between developers and most metals is that developers tend to be fairly volatile, resulting in a fairly high vapor pressure if the room is not properly ventilated. The same is not true for typical soldering metals, even at soldering temperatures. The vapor pressure will always be above zero, but it will be very low. This makes an allergic reaction merely from being in the same room less likely. This is of course not the case for flux, which can boil and even burn at (hot) soldering temperatures.

[stk]

Ventilation is good, but hardly anybody has a problem with traditional solder and fluxes. If you've had a metal fume problem in the past, you might be sensitized now. I know this can occur with epoxy and certain photo developers, but have no idea if it happens with anything related to soldering. With those things, once a person reacts and becomes sensitized, they can't even be in the same room with the stuff.

TBH I did start feeling bad when I started doing white metaling at work maybe this set it all off.
I will look into whats in white metal.

I would feel like crap after doing it and the fumes was terrible from that.

We all so used tinning compound when white metaling and this stuff was nasty to.

[firewalker]

Did you visited a doctor?

Alexander.

[stk]

No I have not mentioned the white metaling.

They think it may be a blockage etc I have to have an xray when I next get ill.

I was just wondering if it could be soldering and the white metaling I did that triggered it off?.

I have not done white metaling now for 2 years but still get ill but cant be sure if I had done any soldering around the time I get ill (bad memory).

Blood tests did not show any thing wonder if there is a different test for metals etc in the blood?.