Sounds like Linus is Disagreeing with thunderfoot on the hyper loop not agreeing

[Beamin]

Another thunderfoot busted video where he says linus tech tips changes his tone about the hyper loop sometime later on his wan show. And says its debunked.

But his tone and phrasing say "Its like all the people crying debunked on the hyperloop assume that the creators didn't read 11th grade physics" (not exact quote watch the video I skipped to the exact spot)

It sounds like he saying: The people crying bullshit seem to think that the creators don't know rudimentary physics. But obviously they do and the critics are dumb for assuming they didn't already think of this. Like when some one comments on a video saying "Its obvious why the plane blew up: Kerosine is flammable and the fuel tanks were full of vapors". When in reality they don't understand that a tank full of vapors must be in a specific % to explode and too much air actually won't blow up, but they have no actual knowledge of combustion limits but think they know everything because they have seen vapors explode.

I think Linus is calling the critics idiots on some small aspect but to know what hes actually talking about you would have to watch his whole video. Also why are his voice inflections making it sound like the critics are dumb if hes trying to make the creators sound dumb? Some times thunderfoot will go off on a stupid detail like a line on a map on that Sarkasian womans video; when the map isn't relevant at all to the point but he's doing a bill oreilly where he distracts by focusing on a little detail because his whole argument is weak.

My 0.02$



https://youtu.be/ktO6IvLT2eg?t=20m40s

[steve30]

I saw the Thunderf00t hyperloop video the other day. I think the reason the hyperloop travels so slowly is because there are speed limit signs all along it  .

[Ampera]

In my experience I have stayed out of the hyperloop crap because I honestly do not have the time in order to research exactly why it's bad or if it's not. i will sit here and wait until it is either finished or never finished.

Thunderfoot is an interesting character. He is half in and half out of a group known off hand as the YouTube "Skeptics", with popular examples including some of my personal favourites Bearing and MundaneMatt. They are not a unified group with a unified opinion, outside the concept that everything should be taken with a grain of salt, and that they are just there to give their opinion on the matter.

Linus is a guy a lot of people here hate, but I rather like him. Be it my personal standards of entertainment are so low, or what have you, I enjoy his mad videos on just doing crazy shit for views. Idk, he does have some quality content, including some interesting videos. Just stay away from Tech Quickie, the channel that takes a note from the mainstream media and sees it more important to educate people than actually conducting research into what they are educating. They are most of the time alright, but there are just some videos that make me want to slap the writer in the face for being so totally and inexcusably stupid.

[Fungus]

I'm on a hyperloop team so I get a kick out of threads like this. 

[Lightages]

I'm on a hyperloop team so I get a kick out of threads like this. 

OK, tell us about it.

[lukier]

In my experience I have stayed out of the hyperloop crap because I honestly do not have the time in order to research exactly why it's bad or if it's not. i will sit here and wait until it is either finished or never finished.

I'm in the same camp - regarding the physics of it. It might be doable, but will require man-years of R&D effort and years to iron out the edges to make a production grade system.

So I'm doubting the economics of it. I cannot see how on earth this is going to be cheaper than conventional high speed rail. The latter is proven technology, already in the field (TGV,Shinkansen) for decades, so the R&D costs are almost zero and the manufacturing and running costs must be surely lower, no massive pipes, no vacuum to keep, simpler power trains and so on.

High speed rail (non-maglev) would be of course slower, but the Hyperloop total travel time, including going through the locks, pumping and acceleration/deceleration might not be significantly better.

[nctnico]

In my experience I have stayed out of the hyperloop crap because I honestly do not have the time in order to research exactly why it's bad or if it's not. i will sit here and wait until it is either finished or never finished.

I'm in the same camp - regarding the physics of it. It might be doable, but will require man-years of R&D effort and years to iron out the edges to make a production grade system.

So I'm doubting the economics of it. I cannot see how on earth this is going to be cheaper than conventional high speed rail. The latter is proven technology, already in the field (TGV,Shinkansen) for decades, so the R&D costs are almost zero and the manufacturing and running costs must be surely lower, no massive pipes, no vacuum to keep, simpler power trains and so on.

High speed rail (non-maglev) would be of course slower, but the Hyperloop total travel time, including going through the locks, pumping and acceleration/deceleration might not be significantly better.

It depends on where you are. In the US it makes sense due to the long distances but in the EU 'conventional' high speed rail is an easier solution. AFAIK the French pushed the TGV to about 520km/h in a test.

[Beamin]

The thesis of this thread has nothing to do with the hyperloop. I'm asking if thuderfoot is quoting linus out of context to further his cause when really linus is calling the critics idiots.

As an aside I think the hyper loop is stupid when you could just use a maglev for a fraction of the cost at almost the same speed using technology that you can order today and build tomorrow no R&D needed or big accidents with loss of life to get through the learning curve.

Back on point: Thunderfoot is twisting Linus's words. 

[coppice]

As an aside I think the hyper loop is stupid when you could just use a maglev for a fraction of the cost at almost the same speed using technology that you can order today and build tomorrow no R&D needed or big accidents with loss of life to get through the learning curve.

Where can you order a solid practical cost effective maglev system today, which requires no additional R&D?

[Fungus]

I'm on a hyperloop team so I get a kick out of threads like this. 

OK, tell us about it.

a) Nothing is fixed in stone. Any or all of the assumptions in thunderfoot's video may be completely wrong.

eg. "Vacuum" isn't part of any written specification that I've seen.

The only fixed design requirement is "SPEED IN A TUBE!". The rest is up to you.

(OK, "less than atmospheric air pressure" is probably helpful )

[EEVblog]

I'm in the same camp - regarding the physics of it. It might be doable, but will require man-years of R&D effort and years to iron out the edges to make a production grade system.

Any competent engineer (who is not blinded by belief that it's "cool", and "anything is possible") can instantly see the countless complete show-stopper problems with such a massive scale vacuum based Hyperloop.
There are good reasons it has sat on the shelf for over 100 years.
But there is will always be engineers willing to work on impractical "cool" projects just because they are fun, and I guess there is nothing wrong with that if some sucker (not taxpayer) is willing to fund it.

So I'm doubting the economics of it. I cannot see how on earth this is going to be cheaper than conventional high speed rail. The latter is proven technology, already in the field (TGV,Shinkansen) for decades, so the R&D costs are almost zero and the manufacturing and running costs must be surely lower, no massive pipes, no vacuum to keep, simpler power trains and so on.
High speed rail (non-maglev) would be of course slower, but the Hyperloop total travel time, including going through the locks, pumping and acceleration/deceleration might not be significantly better.

Bingo, that's the other major issue that will kill it cold even if they magically got it carrying passengers.
The trade-off of double the potential speed vs the ridiculous absurd engineering issues wit the Hyperloop, will always make it an impractical solution.
I've been on a maglev at 430kmh, they work. Double the speed for an almost infinite amount more system implementation and maintenance complexity kill this whole idea cold.

[EEVblog]

a) Nothing is fixed in stone. Any or all of the assumptions in thunderfoot's video may be completely wrong.
eg. "Vacuum" isn't part of any written specification that I've seen.

OMFG! 

The entire concept of the Hyperloop is based on the vacuum premise 

But of course no one wants to solve the vacuum problem, because everyone knows it is a fundamentally stupidly impractical idea. So, lets just dick around with Maglev in a tube and call it Hyperloop, because, you know, hype.

[cdev]

Do you know anything about a condition called narcissistic personality disorder? A very high percentage of politicians seem to me to have this affliction, which is also sometimes called "delusions of grandeur". For them, everything has to be "paradigm shifting" or "record shattering". Also underlying it is simple greed and a desire to funnel away taxpayers money.

Also, WTO GPA..figures into this.. Since its government procurement.

if they did something that's been done before, the companies that did it before would all be overseas, and obviously they could do the same thing cheaper, again, so they would win the bid. They don't want that so they have to do nothing or come up with something no other countries firms would be dumb enough to bid on. Then they can get the contract.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive". 
- Old saying

[raptor1956]

I just wish we in the USA had any trains that averaged more than about 100kph -- yes, some of the Amtrak trains peak as high as about 150kph but the average is almost certainly less than 100kph.  It is unlikely we here will see anything better in the foreseeable future as a good many people have a political hatred of trains so no government money is going to future projects and the only long distance passenger service, the Amtrak I mentioned before, is way underfunded and has had one foot in the grave since the 70's.  We in the USA like trucks and big cars -- anything that consumes huge quantities of fuel per passenger/pound.


Brian

[cdev]

There is much more to this than that, the US started an international association in 1994 thats pushing to progressively privatize what used to be public services unless they are completely noncommercial, and free, everywhere.

So they cant create any more public anything. They can only privatize it.Countries still have freedom to enact any law as long as its consistent with these goals and doesn't decrease profits.

[T3sl4co1l]

The things that bother me the most about thunderf00t's video are:
1. Sure, expansion, fine.  WHAT ABOUT YOUNG'S MODULUS, YOU RETARD?  Steel is flexible!  It is certainly not a fagot of strands, as his expansion diagram would suggest.
2. No discussion about actually solving the "show stoppers".  Example: rust is trivially* solved by merely switching to stainless steel.

*At no small cost, mind, but it's trivial on the drawing board.  Somewhere inbetween lies the real answer.  Galvanized or aluminized steel for example, or just good old paint.

Flex is a particularly bothersome issue, because he's mentioned it several times, yet he still hasn't realized the existence of actual pipelines crisscrossing the continent already.  It's a solved problem.

Now, not necessarily that it's solved on precisely the same scale, no.  Most of those pipelines are filled with a fluid (water and petroleum being the most important), which keeps the temperature consistent across the pipe and from day to day.

But then, there are pipelines crisscrossing major fault lines, subject to Earthquakes at least as strong as California has ever seen, that see enormous seasonal temperature swings: Alaska.  And they're fine.  They solved that by giving lateral freedom on the supports, and zig-zagging the pipeline across the countryside.

A "Hyperloop" would have to have much softer bends in it, because of its contents; but there's no on-the-face reason that this factor is a complete game breaker.

Tim

[Jeroen3]

This is like the Concorde.
It's cool, everyone wants it. But it's turns out to be expensive and dangerous, and it will be cancelled.

But this doesn't mean nothing can be learned!

[filssavi]

What really bothers me in this hyperloop charade is how easily engineers, people who should know better, fall for the hype train...

I mean it isn't that hard to see that the whole thing is just hot hair, without even doing a single addition with just common sense and critical thinking (ok granted seen how popular votes went last year that seems to be in exceptionally short supply)

here just few of the countless argumentations:

- why is Elon Musk "open sourcing the idea" (whatever that means) and not really putting his own money/companies into that, for f**k sake he basically started his own nasa, so don't tell me he can't make bold moves and open up new industries/Sectors

-The  economics of it just aren't making any sense...

let's just look at maglev it is a proven technology, it has been in use for more than a decade now in shanghai and still you can count the number of operational and under construction lines on two hands, and all but one (Ch?? Shinkansen) don't even reach 100 km in lenght and most of them just run between an airport and the center city.
The problem is that the upfront costs of building the damn thing are just too great, the running costs might be shlightly smaller, and in the long run it might even save you some money (and I doubt it) but still no governament (excluding China) has that much money to throw at a project upfront, we haven't got them in europe, and shure as hell you haven't got them in america, the governament is risking shutdown each year and i don't see a decrease in military spending anytime soon.

So maglev technology is struggling to find a place in the market and the briliant idea to decrease the cost is to run a maglev train in high vacuum at twice the speed?? how on earth will that decrease costs? it won't.


And that is why unless some really huge breakthrough in this field happens the hyperloop will always remain a pipe dream....

Ok I was joking there is so much media hype around this thing that it can't die, the most probable outcome is that the specs will be gradually decreased until the hyperloop will become just a standard maglev run in a low vacuum tube.

[filssavi]

This is like the Concorde.
It's cool, everyone wants it. But it's turns out to be expensive and dangerous, and it will be cancelled.

But this doesn't mean nothing can be learned!

This will be even worse than Concorde, as that plane made sense when it was designed in the sixties as fuel was dirt cheap back then, it's the steadily climbing oil prices that killed supersonic passenger flight

This hyperloop isn't even making sense now

[amspire]

a) Nothing is fixed in stone. Any or all of the assumptions in thunderfoot's video may be completely wrong.
eg. "Vacuum" isn't part of any written specification that I've seen.

OMFG! 

The entire concept of the Hyperloop is based on the vacuum premise 

But of course no one wants to solve the vacuum problem, because everyone knows it is a fundamentally stupidly impractical idea. So, lets just dick around with Maglev in a tube and call it Hyperloop, because, you know, hype.

This is just getting caught up in semantics. The Tesla proposal suggested 1/1000th of an atmosphere which for all safety aspects is the same as a vacuum.

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/hyperloop_alpha3.pdf

They had done a fair bit of calculations which make it sound theoretically feasible, but the safety and disaster recovery issues would be monumental. I am not sure the estimated costs come near reality.

In peak hour carriages are leaving every few minutes and so in the case of a problem they would probably have to apply the emergency brakes to all the carriages and open the whole tube to air while people are waiting to be rescued. There will be thousands of people in the tube, so they probably need fail-safe ventilation hardware all along the length to ensure there is adequate air quality for the passengers being rescued. They will have to slowly drive the carriages to an end on battery power (if possible) and then when the problem is fixed, re-empty the tube of air.

How long is that going to take?

Not sure what the protocol will be when they have to cut the tube open to rescue people. How much will it cost to have fully equipped rescue crews all along the length of the tube? When they have to cut the tube open, how long will it take to repair and safety check the tube?

I cannot help thinking that the Hypertube somehow depends on it being so reliable, it never fails.

[Artlav]

In case some people are confused, this isn't talking about Linus the creator of Linux, but rather Linus from a "PC and related stuff" advertisement YouTube channel "Linus Tech Tips".

Having seen both videos, i wonder why either take it so seriously. On Linus's side, it's obvious that engineers working on the hyperloop demo knew their basic physics. They also knew that this was a quick PR project, to be made at just enough cost and quality to last through the demo day. It should also be obvious to a "tech" person that challenging an idea is a default mode of communication among scientists and engineers.

On the other side, Thunderf00t got his typical corrosive drive-point-home-ness about what is obviously just a Musk's pet research project. Hyperloop lets engineers work on a cool, if impractical, idea while being paid for it by a guy who got spare money for that. I don't see a problem with that, it's not like this is an another crowdfunding scam like solar roadways or anything.

[CJay]

This is like the Concorde.
It's cool, everyone wants it. But it's turns out to be expensive and dangerous, and it will be cancelled.

But this doesn't mean nothing can be learned!

This will be even worse than Concorde, as that plane made sense when it was designed in the sixties as fuel was dirt cheap back then, it's the steadily climbing oil prices that killed supersonic passenger flight

This hyperloop isn't even making sense now

Concorde never made sense, it was always a loss making enterprise and was designed as a 'flagship' product to promote the cause of supersonic travel, the start of a new era in trans continental transport.

It is however an astonishing engineering feat, a beautiful plane and an amazing way to travel (I'm told, I never flew in one but my Uncle did), the history is fascinating and a great read if you have some time to spare.

The Concorde which crashed in France that caused the whole Concorde fleet to be grounded was essentially used as an excuse to be rid of the increasingly heavy financial millstone.

[coppice]

This will be even worse than Concorde, as that plane made sense when it was designed in the sixties as fuel was dirt cheap back then, it's the steadily climbing oil prices that killed supersonic passenger flight

You must be young. Living through the development of Concorde, there was almost weekly news of something which made it seem a dumber and dumber idea. Cheap oil would not have overcome the bans on it flying overland, and the volume of Concordes made for pure over ocean flying would never have made the project make sense.

Most bad projects which people say only look bad with hindsight were not being very critically observed going forwards.

[cdev]

Leon Festinger was a psychologist who studied group dynamics and he put together a body of knowledge about something called cognitive dissonance.  His work indicated that people will believe what they want to believe even given only a shred of evidence supporting it and a large body of evidence against it, IF they have invested heavily emotionally in that position and integrating the new knowledge would require some action on their parts..

Clearly part of the function of projects like the hypeloop is propaganda- hiding how and why the system has changed - and won't ever return to the way it was 30 years ago, without the underlying things that have been done being brought out into the open and debated.

[CJay]

Leon Festinger was a psychologist who studied group dynamics and he put together a body of knowledge about something called cognitive dissonance.  His work indicated that people will believe what they want to believe even given only a shred of evidence supporting it and a large body of evidence against it, IF they have invested heavily emotionally in that position and integrating the new knowledge would require some action on their parts..

If he's still alive I bet he's having a field day with all the recent events, massive confirmation of his theories, the biggest ever, the greatest .