Companies that hide their address... why?

[ebastler]

That's bizarre, and people actually operate home based businesses under those rules? There is no way I would do that, my home address is private, there is absolutely no reason for it to be publicly posted. Here standard practice for home based businesses is to use a PO box for all physical correspondence.

Well, if you choose to make your home address also your business address, it is no longer private.

The EU Directive requires the "geographical address", and I am pretty sure that this deliberately excludes P.O. boxes, the reason being that an address suitable for service of process is required. Which I find entirely plausible, in the interest of customer/consumer protection, as discussed by others above.

Business owners who want to avoid disclosing their home address typically contract with an office service provider -- to have access to office and meeting space on demand, or just to receive mail.

[james_s]

Well, if you choose to make your home address also your business address, it is no longer private.

The EU Directive requires the "geographical address", and I am pretty sure that this deliberately excludes P.O. boxes, the reason being that an address suitable for service of process is required. Which I find entirely plausible, in the interest of customer/consumer protection, as discussed by others above.

Business owners who want to avoid disclosing their home address typically contract with an office service provider -- to have access to office and meeting space on demand, or just to receive mail.

I'm just thinking of cases such as a fuel injector cleaning service that is located somewhere not far from where I live. It's pretty obviously a one-man operation, likely just based out of his garage. The physical address isn't listed anywhere on the website, just the PO box where you send your injectors to. I've used them before and I was happy with the work, it's obvious why they don't want random customers dropping by, there would be some wanting to hang out and chat, or wishing to drop by at odd hours wanting to pick up or drop off their order, and likely the occasional pissed off customer who is unhappy for a reason that may or may not be legitimate showing up on their doorstep, that's not a good situation. The government will have the name and physical address of the proprietor on file but it's not publicly available and I see no reason why it should be.

[hans]

In the European Union, EU directive 2000/31/EC makes it a legal requirement that contact information and address are provided on any website which offers "information society services". Member states have to put appropriate national legislation in place, e.g. in Germany the "Telemediengesetz" (TMG).

That strange term "information society services" is defined broadly and includes e.g. online shops, online product catalogs, and other information offerings which serve a commercial purpose (and are typically, but not necessarily, offered for a charge). So there should not be much debate whether a EU-based commercial website makes the company's address available.

Interesting.
I understand its aim for e-commerce. It's interesting that article 5 of that directive also cites that just email is sufficient for rapid communications. There is no mention of phone.
Either big corporations are escaping this ruling for 2+ decades, or it doesn't apply to them. Google, Facebook, etc. are not e-commerce in its core activity. They may be commercial entities, but customers typically do not spend money on them. Although Play and Oculus App store begs to differ. So now I'm also a bit confused.

But regarding e.g. a freelancer or private consultant, I'm not sure how these rules apply. Safest bet is to include information, but then I could also devil's advocate based on 2 arguments:

1) If nobody cares about it, you probably get away skipping it 'for now'. It becomes an issue when its urgent (TM).

2) One could argue that a freelancer or consultancy homepage does not include a commercial transaction, but is just a digital visitor card for someones services. Many sites that offer information providing and commercialize based on ad revenue is perhaps similar. If you cannot spend money on a site, it can still mean the site has a commercial intent, however to what extent does need to follow this ruling.

I know it does play very well in the data-driven society where the internet of a gold mine for advertisers with restrictive EULAs that you "agree upon" by "using" a website, without any repercussions. As long as handing over data is not seen as a commercial transaction, this remains a problem.

That directive does state its main target is "in particular" e-commerce, so I think its open for interpretation and argument which commercial activities are particularly bound to its internet presence. Maybe a jurist/lawyer/judge case will have to attempt to clarify the intent and practical implications of such a law, since a freelancer working from home maybe only wants to be contacted by email, (mobile) phone and P.O. box. And honestly I think that's a legit claim. However since I'm neither of those (jurist/lawyer/judge), don't take my 0.02EUR for any legal advice[/disclaimer].

[ebastler]

1) If nobody cares about it, you probably get away skipping it 'for now'. It becomes an issue when its urgent (TM).

In Germany, we have seen some waves of "cease & desist" letters from seedy lawyers, mainly when the legislation was newer and less well-known. They send form letters to all kinds of companies who do not fully comply, claiming to represent a competitor. Targeted companies need to sign a declaration that they will play by the rules going forward, and have to pay a few 100 € to the attorney for their "services".

2) One could argue that a freelancer or consultancy homepage does not include a commercial transaction, but is just a digital visitor card for someones services. Many sites that offer information providing and commercialize based on ad revenue is perhaps similar. If you cannot spend money on a site, it can still mean the site has a commercial intent, however to what extent does need to follow this ruling.

Logically I would argue that the whole idea is to protect customers by making transparent who they deal with -- for those business models and offerings where the whole "dealing" happens online. I don't see why the full address should be required if the "deal" requires some other form of interaction, like an on-site visit from a craftsman, and the website is just to advertise the services and enable the potential customer to get in touch.

But it seems that the applicability of the law is interpreted broadly, at least in Germany. Even freelancers who essentially just publish an "electronic business card" on their website do include their full details. And the chambers of commerce etc. certainly instruct you that it is required no matter what you publish and offer on a web site, as soon as the site is connected to a business.

Either big corporations are escaping this ruling for 2+ decades, or it doesn't apply to them. Google, Facebook, etc. are not e-commerce in its core activity. They may be commercial entities, but customers typically do not spend money on them.

I don't find that to be true. Just checked the German pages of Apple, Google, and Facebook, and they each give the full address of their main European subsidiary (i.e. the legal entity responsible for their European presence). Found it in the "contact" or "impressum/imprint" sections of the web pages. All three companies have their EU headquarters in Ireland, by the way; I won't go into why that might be the case... 

[CatalinaWOW]

It appears that in the EU you have decided that the risks to the consumer are more important than the risks to the business.  Which on the surface sounds absolutely correct.  But it is decidedly less true for very small businesses.  You have thus created a bias towards large business organizations.  Your economies are working just fine for now, but it will be interesting to see how this works out in the long run.  Here in the US we have found that most innovation (of all types, not just technical) occurs in small businesses and that they are the most potent creators of wealth.  But we also are tending to make consumer safety the most important issue.  Only time will tell how it works out for all of us.

[PlainName]

In the European Union, EU directive 2000/31/EC makes it a legal requirement that contact information and address are provided on any website which offers "information society services". Member states have to put appropriate national legislation in place, e.g. in Germany the "Telemediengesetz" (TMG).

That strange term "information society services" is defined broadly and includes e.g. online shops, online product catalogs, and other information offerings which serve a commercial purpose (and are typically, but not necessarily, offered for a charge). So there should not be much debate whether a EU-based commercial website makes the company's address available.

That's bizarre, and people actually operate home based businesses under those rules? There is no way I would do that, my home address is private, there is absolutely no reason for it to be publicly posted. Here standard practice for home based businesses is to use a PO box for all physical correspondence.

Where in that legislation does it say you have to use your own address? It says "contact information and address", so however you want to be contacted is what you use. It's very common for companies, and particularly one-man operations, to use their accountant's details, and most accountancy practices expect to provide this service.

[themadhippy]

It's very common for companies, and particularly one-man operations, to use their accountant's details,

Exactly what sevral companys i deal with do.Are they trying to hide something? yes were they store  there expensive toys and especially  cable.Advertising you've got 100's of meters of copper in your garage tends  to    attract certain elements of society.

[Haenk]

Home-run business are (or at least were, a couple of years ago) quite common in Germany. Our company was initially run from my parents house, then from my brothers student apartment.
In all these years, hundreds of thousands of orders later, there have only been a handful of customers ringing at our business address (now dedicated office/building) without arranging a pickup in advance.
That has never been a problem, ever. Addresses were publically visible on our web site and print ads, all the time.

Personally, I would never order from someone who does not show his business address and contact detail. (At least in Germany, that is a pretty certain hint at fraudulent operations.)

[james_s]

Personally, I would never order from someone who does not show his business address and contact detail. (At least in Germany, that is a pretty certain hint at fraudulent operations.)

I don't even understand this way of thinking. The address will be registered with the government, if something happens they can be located. There is no legitimate reason for you to need the physical address if it is a business that does not accept walk-in customers. Even if they give you an address you're not going to know if that's actually their address unless you go there and find out. I could list the address of any number of nondescript business parks, how are you going to know that's the real address? A listed address does nothing to tell you that the business isn't fraudulent.

[mendip_discovery]

Personally, I would never order from someone who does not show his business address and contact detail. (At least in Germany, that is a pretty certain hint at fraudulent operations.)

I don't even understand this way of thinking. The address will be registered with the government, if something happens they can be located. There is no legitimate reason for you to need the physical address if it is a business that does not accept walk-in customers. Even if they give you an address you're not going to know if that's actually their address unless you go there and find out. I could list the address of any number of nondescript business parks, how are you going to know that's the real address? A listed address does nothing to tell you that the business isn't fraudulent.

One of the first things that the police talk about when you are looking at a website with the potential to buy from it. It comes about every year on the haunted fish tank at xmas time as the scammers try to sell that item that is hard to get gold of.

[james_s]

One of the first things that the police talk about when you are looking at a website with the potential to buy from it. It comes about every year on the haunted fish tank at xmas time as the scammers try to sell that item that is hard to get gold of.

If it's some random business selling impossible to get fad items that has red flags all over it, I'm thinking of the sort of stuff I've bought from small businesses, obscure test equipment or kit devices, automotive accessories, injector cleaning, obscure tools, the sort of stuff that is often sold by one-man operations. I always pay by credit card for that sort of thing anyway so I'm not worried about getting scammed, if I get ripped off I can just have the charge reversed, no need to even get the police involved.

[EPAIII]

I have had a one man company for over 10 years now and have never made any effort to hide my address.

Never had even a single sales person or customer show up on my doorstep. E-mails, yes. Personal visits? NO. It might be nice to have a salesman call and buy me lunch someday.

[PlainName]

In a previous life I had some group take a dislike to a potential product and do the usual doxing of me. Showed my address on their forum and threatened to turn up (amongst other things, like deliberately injuring themselves with the product to claim damages from me). Don't know if they did turn up because it was my accountants office address and, once you're there, pretty obvious it wasn't what they might be expecting

[soldar]

In the European Union, EU directive 2000/31/EC makes it a legal requirement that contact information and address are provided on any website which offers "information society services". Member states have to put appropriate national legislation in place, e.g. in Germany the "Telemediengesetz" (TMG).

That strange term "information society services" is defined broadly and includes e.g. online shops, online product catalogs, and other information offerings which serve a commercial purpose (and are typically, but not necessarily, offered for a charge). So there should not be much debate whether a EU-based commercial website makes the company's address available.

Yup. The EU has wonderful legislation on paper ... or I guess these days it would be on the Internet. In Spain this wonderful legislation is very often observed in the breach. Legislation which is not enforced is worse than no legislation.

Some fly-by-night guy in his kitchen wants me to send him money but does not want me to know where I am sending my money. I have no problem buying from eBay not knowing where Mr ebay lives or buying from Amazon not knowing where Mr Amazon resides but I'll be darned if I'm going to send my money to some website where I have no redress if things do not go well. I would much rather pass on a too-good-to-be-true opportunity than take the risk.

Consumers in Spain, which is nominally part of the EU, are totally unprotected. It is the law of the jungle and not the law of the EU.