Author Topic: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep  (Read 28820 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Specmaster

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14483
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2017, 02:07:05 pm »
I use phones / tablets in bed as well, but never charge them at the same time. But even then, they recommend that do not leave a phone or tablet on, in or under the pillow, even switched off while you're asleep either for fire safety reason.
Who let Murphy in?

Brymen-Fluke-HP-Thurlby-Thander-Tek-Extech-Black Star-GW-Avo-Kyoritsu-Amprobe-ITT-Robin-TTi
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline amyk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8240
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2017, 04:56:34 pm »
Sorry, my previous post was too long. Summary:
Well worn cable frayed/fake/faulty in two places, hence providing two conduction points/path for electrocution.
...and those two places happened to be connected to different sides of the mains by a faulty PSU that failed exactly in such a way that both sides of mains were connected to +5V and GND, respectively of the USB output? That sounds extremely implausible. More likely is that one terminal of the PSU output was connected to mains active via the failure, and she contacted both the cable and another grounded object in the vicinity.
 
The following users thanked this post: Cyberdragon

Offline MK14

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4527
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2017, 05:03:51 pm »
Sorry, my previous post was too long. Summary:
Well worn cable frayed/fake/faulty in two places, hence providing two conduction points/path for electrocution.
...and those two places happened to be connected to different sides of the mains by a faulty PSU that failed exactly in such a way that both sides of mains were connected to +5V and GND, respectively of the USB output? That sounds extremely implausible. More likely is that one terminal of the PSU output was connected to mains active via the failure, and she contacted both the cable and another grounded object in the vicinity.

I completely agree with you.
But in my original (big) post, I linked to the Local Police (via a news site), who seem to be saying that the fake charger, provided the electrocution paths.

Bigclive's videos, often show potentially dangerous items, like these. So I can imagine some kind of poorly designed/made adaptor and cable, which can provide both electrical mains connections and hence electrocution.

But you are quite right, a path to Earth is also a very likely explanation as well, I agree.

As my original (big) post tries to explain. What I am saying here, is HUGE on speculation and TINY on evidence/details.

So I could very easily be completely wrong indeed!

Maybe she wasn't even electrocuted, maybe it was some other cause. Etc etc.
 

Offline Mjolinor

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 328
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2017, 05:08:33 pm »
Sorry, my previous post was too long. Summary:
Well worn cable frayed/fake/faulty in two places, hence providing two conduction points/path for electrocution.
...and those two places happened to be connected to different sides of the mains by a faulty PSU that failed exactly in such a way that both sides of mains were connected to +5V and GND, respectively of the USB output? That sounds extremely implausible. More likely is that one terminal of the PSU output was connected to mains active via the failure, and she contacted both the cable and another grounded object in the vicinity.

The chance of either scenario are pretty remote but I suspect that if you stick the number of mobile phone users that have died / total number of mobile phone users and compare it to the probabilities of either of those two possibles named then you would not be far from an equals sign in the middle.

 

Offline MK14

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4527
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2017, 05:16:08 pm »
The chance of either scenario are pretty remote but I suspect that if you stick the number of mobile phone users that have died / total number of mobile phone users and compare it to the probabilities of either of those two possibles named then you would not be far from an equals sign in the middle.

I was thinking, similar things. There must be so many millions of potentially dangerous fake chargers around. It is surprising this sort of thing, doesn't happen more frequently.

I'm not sure what the figures are. But some of the time, even when you get what could have been a fatal electric shock. You live to tell the tale. But, sadly, sometimes luck or whatever is not on a persons side, and unfortunately, it does not go well.
Different sources, seem to give differing accounts, as to electrocution. But some seem to say, that it depends on where in the heartbeat cycle (or whatever the proper medical term is, ask a doctor), it is, when the mains electric shock occurs. If you are unlucky, it then stops or changes rhythm or something. Which is really bad, unless you are given immediate treatment (which ironically means more electric shocks, but in the correct way, to restart the heart).
 

Offline Mjolinor

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 328
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2017, 05:28:35 pm »

Many years ago while on a course for LV operations (certification to work, live on 240 AC networks) we were shown a video in which a doctor said " If you are brought to me having suffered a severe electric shock then I will do my utmost to get your family here before the inevitable happens". Boy has that stuck with me. The sight of those cooked meat autopsy pictures sure teach you well. :)
 

Offline MK14

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4527
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2017, 06:52:41 pm »

Many years ago while on a course for LV operations (certification to work, live on 240 AC networks) we were shown a video in which a doctor said " If you are brought to me having suffered a severe electric shock then I will do my utmost to get your family here before the inevitable happens". Boy has that stuck with me. The sight of those cooked meat autopsy pictures sure teach you well. :)

I have heard, that electrical burns, can do terrible damage beneath the surface. Somehow, the huge respect that at least some of us, had for electrical safety, many years ago. Seems to be in decline, when you see many of the cheap items (often originating from China).
I try and avoid them, for fear of them burning the place down, electrocution or just plain being short lived and unreliable. Especially anything which plugs in the mains.
To be clear, I mean I avoid Chinese branded items (e.g. for sale on ebay) and/or fakes (such as chargers).
A western manufacture's branded item, even if made in China, is usually safe and well made. So I use things like that, such as the original chargers, which come with quality branded mobile phones.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 06:58:13 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline chris_leyson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1541
  • Country: wales
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2017, 07:29:39 pm »
I think amyk spelled out the most plausable single fault condition, thanks. It's most likely that the charger is going to be a primary regulated flyback with a single isolation barrier across the transformer and therefore no need for a second barrier across the opto coupler. Saves a lot of board space and money. It could have been a badly wound transformer that didn't meet creapage and clearance. For example, somebody posted a picture of a badly wound flyback where a secondary turn had slipped of the bobbin and was touching a primary pin, either eevblog or bigclive I don't remember, but I do remember that the seconary wire was just plain enameled copper rather than T.I.W. if it had been tripple insulated it would have been less of a problem. Another scenario could be a failed Y cap connected between primary and secondary to reduce emissions. We won't know until the supply is examined to find the failure mechanism.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 17729
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2017, 07:52:32 pm »
I'm remembering a click bait news article a while back about a bloke getting electrocuted while using his phone in the bath and charging it. Turns out he had the charger plugged into a extension cord and that fell into the bath or something.

I saw the charger in this case and thought its not a genuine one. I'm sure the investigators will open it and see, but the news reports probably won't change. It also looks a bit burnt where the cable is plugged into the charger, or are my eyes deceiving me?

He had the end of an extension on his chest whilst lying in the bath so that the charger could be plugged in. The fact that it was a phone was really pretty irrelevant. Socket was basically on his heart and all he had to do was exhale deeply to have it get wet and electrocute him as he was the direct path to earth. He deserved it, what a prick.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2676
  • Country: us
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2017, 08:14:41 pm »
I think amyk spelled out the most plausable single fault condition, thanks. It's most likely that the charger is going to be a primary regulated flyback with a single isolation barrier across the transformer and therefore no need for a second barrier across the opto coupler. Saves a lot of board space and money. It could have been a badly wound transformer that didn't meet creapage and clearance. For example, somebody posted a picture of a badly wound flyback where a secondary turn had slipped of the bobbin and was touching a primary pin, either eevblog or bigclive I don't remember, but I do remember that the seconary wire was just plain enameled copper rather than T.I.W. if it had been tripple insulated it would have been less of a problem. Another scenario could be a failed Y cap connected between primary and secondary to reduce emissions. We won't know until the supply is examined to find the failure mechanism.

If both sides of the mains failed to the output lead, 1. how did the wires get across her body? (is a very short current path still fatal?) 2. the phone would have probably exploded from mains. I don't see any exposed metal on the charger itself, so she must have either contacted the frayed mains cable itself, or her bedframe was grounded.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline MK14

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4527
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2017, 08:28:43 pm »
If both sides of the mains failed to the output lead, 1. how did the wires get across her body? (is a very short current path still fatal?) 2. the phone would have probably exploded from mains. I don't see any exposed metal on the charger itself, so she must have either contacted the frayed mains cable itself, or her bedframe was grounded.

The latest and most accurate reports, I have been able to find (in approx the last hour). Seem to say that the Police have said that there were TWO faults.
The open (and hence dangerous), fake (suspected to be) charger and the frayed wire. They also seem to be talking about black burn marks, between (presumably), these two potentially live contact points.

One example of the many internet articles about this:

Quote
Police said a "broken-down" charging brick and frayed cable were also found in the 14-year-old's bed. It is not thought those devices were made by Apple.

I.e. it makes no mention of Earth being involved, at this stage.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/teenage-schoolgirl-electrocuted-iphone-cable-sleep-died-le-thi-xoan-vietnam-apple-hanoi-a8056831.html

tl;dr
Released EVIDENCE seems to suggest a two point contact electric shock (i.e. two of the mains wires, made contact, two of live, neutral, Earth, whatever they use in that country), rather than live to ground (something Earthed) type of shock (unless the Earth, came from the exposed mains cables/connections, themselves).
But it is still all speculation, at this point. Best to wait until the proper information (if ever), is released.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 08:33:24 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2017, 08:35:44 pm »
This story is a good argument for why we should include some basic electronics and electricity in the curriculum for everybody at the elementary and middle school level. In the last year Ive probably read at least seven or eight of these kinds of stories, both here and elsewhere. This problem with phone chargers appears to be fairly common.

You know it would probably be possible to test chargers in a non-invasive manner by capacitance somehow. Then bigger stores that sold after market chargers could be required to have a little kiosk with one of these testers so people could test theirs. If there was some way of testing their likelihood of failure of causing shocks, people would bring their chargers in and test them.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 08:41:25 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
The following users thanked this post: tooki

Offline MK14

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4527
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2017, 08:37:15 pm »
I think amyk spelled out the most plausable single fault condition, thanks.

As I said before, I also agree with that. Because the early information is sometimes WRONG, and because some kind of Earth connection, can be involved in Electric shocks.
But so far, the released reports, don't mention Earth at all, so it is just speculation at this point.
Summary:
The released (early) information, seems to point to a to point contact electric shock (or whatever the proper terminology should be, I'm NOT a doctor, also that is MY interpretation, which also could easily be WRONG and others may have their own opinions of the released information). But speculation that it could be an Earth related issue, is also highly plausible.
I guess we just don't really know for sure, yet, either way.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 08:40:47 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 17729
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2017, 08:40:29 pm »
What we could do with is more product inspection and enforcement of standards as well. Ebay has been a brilliant vehicle for cheap dangerous rubbish to travel all over the world. the chinese company put CE on it, you buy if from them, ebay don't know or care about CE marking so your left to deal with a foreign seller, well you just don't bother.

No amount of training will help people spot dodgy products and to be honest we all know that water and electricity don't mix so the giuy that killed himself in the bath tub fully deserved it.
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2017, 08:44:56 pm »
Some people believe it or not DON'T know that its dangerous to use electrical appliances in the bathtub/bathroom.

The generation who were at least informed by Hunter S. Thompson's work have aged out of the system.

----

I think pressure should be put on companies like Apple to both lower the price for replacements for the original charger and make them using substantially more robust (thicker) components like cables AND add really good strain relief, both so they last longer and so that imitators will be forced to use thicker cables too.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 08:50:16 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline MK14

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4527
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2017, 08:48:49 pm »
What we could do with is more product inspection and enforcement of standards as well. Ebay has been a brilliant vehicle for cheap dangerous rubbish to travel all over the world. the chinese company put CE on it, you buy if from them, ebay don't know or care about CE marking so your left to deal with a foreign seller, well you just don't bother.

No amount of training will help people spot dodgy products and to be honest we all know that water and electricity don't mix so the giuy that killed himself in the bath tub fully deserved it.

The UK, should really enforce the laws, and make sure that items, which people commonly buy. From bricks and mortar shops, and mail order (including abroad). Should meet all the regulations (and especially be safe).
I'm NOT sure what the best solution going forwards, is going to be. But something should really be done about it.

EDIT:
Maybe the solution, is to make a law, so that only items that meet the regulations (certification etc), are allowed to be imported. I.e. they don't electrocute people, catch on fire, contain hazardous substances, pay all taxes (including VAT, import dties etc) and meet other sensible regulations.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 08:52:53 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline MK14

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4527
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2017, 08:56:28 pm »
Some people believe it or not DON'T know that its dangerous to use electrical appliances in the bathtub/bathroom.

The generation who were at least informed by Hunter S. Thompson's work have aged out of the system.

----

I think pressure should be put on companies like Apple to both lower the price for replacements for the original charger and make them using substantially more robust (thicker) components like cables AND add really good strain relief, both so they last longer and so that imitators will be forced to use thicker cables too.

I agree, that improved safety education, is a good idea.

But putting the blame on Apple, because people buy dangerous fakes, of their (presumably) perfectly safe devices, seems to be a bit unfair and harsh.

Maybe create a law, which forces companies to allow third parties, to produce "official" releases of compatible chargers (and stuff), which are then checked to be safe by Apple or other entities.
A bit like the Original IBM PC and the "official" compatibles/clones we had, of it.
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2017, 09:07:52 pm »
Even the official Apple cords are as thin as they can make them. They aren't that robust. I have lots of them and Ive had lots of them fail on me. Ive stopped buying Apple products pretty much now. Thats one of the reasons.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline Cyberdragon

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2676
  • Country: us
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2017, 09:10:24 pm »
Some people believe it or not DON'T know that its dangerous to use electrical appliances in the bathtub/bathroom.

The generation who were at least informed by Hunter S. Thompson's work have aged out of the system.

----

I think pressure should be put on companies like Apple to both lower the price for replacements for the original charger and make them using substantially more robust (thicker) components like cables AND add really good strain relief, both so they last longer and so that imitators will be forced to use thicker cables too.

Yes, in third world countries, electricity is still relatively new. The general public still doesn't fully understand how to use it properly and need to be educated.

Did you seroiously ask Apple to lower their prices? :-DD That will never happen. Second, Apple's cables are good, but counterfeit products will always be garbage since that's their whole point, to scam you.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2017, 09:14:06 pm »
Even the official Apple cords are as thin as they can make them. They aren't that robust. I have lots of them and Ive had lots of them fail on me. Ive stopped buying Apple products pretty much now. Thats one of the reasons.
Those squared design connectors aren't great too. We've figured out how to do proper strain relieves years ago, yet for the sake of looks functionality suffers.

Both Apple and Microsoft do this, by the way. Apple leads are renowned for failing and Microsoft had to do a recall on their Surface charger leads.
 

Offline chris_leyson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1541
  • Country: wales
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2017, 09:26:43 pm »
If MK14's information is correct then there are either two faults in the supply which is highly unlikely but still plausable but I suspect they might count the frayed USB cable as a fault, it's common sense. In that case the second fault is primary/secondary breakdown. The breakdown could be either from the +400V or 0V from the "HOT" mains connected primary side or maybe from the drain connected switching node. If that is the case that opens up a whole can of worms.
If you divert current from the switching node to ground what is the controller chip going to do ? It's going to increase the primary ON time to put more energy into the primary widing to get regulation and where does that energy go ? it goes through the unfortunate victim in this case and NOT the secondary side. Switching frequency is likely going to be 100kHz or so to get the transformer size down and the human body would not detect the current because it's high freqency AKA small Tesla coil. It could result in a serious RF burn perhaps. It's another single condition fault that could occur.
EDIT: You don't need a direct ground connection for current to flow at 100kHz just capacitance.
EDIT: One of the corner pins on the primary side of the transformer is going to be "HOT" and if you've got a splipped seconary turn it could well short to a corner pin. Could be rectified AC mains or could be HF switching you just don't know.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 10:09:20 pm by chris_leyson »
 

Offline MK14

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4527
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2017, 09:43:41 pm »
If MK14's information is correct then there are either two faults in the supply which is highly unlikely but still plausable but I suspect they might count the frayed USB cable as a fault, it's common sense. In that case the second fault is primary/secondary breakdown. The breakdown could be either from the +400V or 0V from the "HOT" mains connected primary side or maybe from the drain connected switching node. If that is the case that opens up a whole can of worms.
If you divert current from the switching node to ground what is the controller chip going to do ? It's going to increase the primary ON time to put more energy into the primary widing to get regulation and where does that energy go ? it goes through the unfortunate victim in this case and NOT the secondary side. Switching frequency is likely going to be 100kHz or so to get the transformer size down and the human body would not detect the current because it's high freqency AKA small Tesla coil. It could result in a serious RF burn perhaps. It's another single condition fault that could occur.

Sadly, what you just said, does make a lot of sense. Because they seem to have gone through the incident, without releasing themselves from the shock (not always possible, because your muscles, can be held rigid by the shock(s) ). Also, the reports seem to say that she was alive, and taken to hospital (where she later died). Tending to imply that they were badly injured (burned etc), rather than somewhat rapidly being killed by heart failure and/or loss of breathing function.

If your theory is right, maybe because it was a "fake" charger, it was missing (or had badly designed) safety circuits, could have contributed to this incident. As a properly designed one, may have tripped out, If the victim was lucky.

I guess there are many, many factors here. Use of fakes, poor equipment maintenance (frayed cables, open mains connected cases), poor habits (using chargers in bed), lack of RCD/GFCI protection and probably many other things.
 

Offline MK14

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4527
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2017, 09:50:36 pm »
Can you make one for that price in Netherlands? Can you make one for twice or even thrice the price in Netherlands?

Properly designed, reasonable/good quality items, which are safe (especially as regards electric shock and fire hazards), can and do cost more money, to make and buy (common sense).
But given the huge expenses (in both money and irreplaceable loss of human life, when it does go horribly wrong, such as in this thread), it should be well worth the extra cost. Hopefully, everywhere in the world.
But it maybe could be said that the "third world" countries, can't afford such quality and safety. But discussion of that, would soon become too political, and hence not advisable on this forum.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 09:55:06 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline MK14

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4527
  • Country: gb
Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2017, 10:05:53 pm »
Any reason makes you think CUI sells non safe products? CUI is one of the world's best PSU manufacturer, in the same league of Phihon and Flextronics, only one tier below Delta/Emerson/whatever-super-high-quality-telecom-PSU-maker.

I'm not trying to say, anyone is safe or unsafe.

What I am trying to say, is that safety, should be a much higher priority/concern than the item price. because the loss of human life is irreplaceable and very sad.

It could mean that societies, have to accept that things cost more, and hence they can't afford to have as many items, as they would perhaps like.

I.e. all things for sale (ideally), should meet a minimum level of safety standards, probably everywhere in the world.

But such safety standards, can cost quite a lot of money to pay for, and payment for the regulations to be checked. Usually leading to higher product costs.

EDIT: tl;dr
If making it locally (the Neverlands or wherever), costs a lot more, but is the only reliable way to make things safe. Then that is what we may need to do.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 10:15:59 pm by MK14 »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf