Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep

[cdev]

We will need more safety because services like fire and ambulance response and health care will all likely be less available and more costly.

Also, people may not call them, even when they need help, because of externalities (cost)

http://www.bilaterals.org/?emergency-services-turn-life

[Mr. Scram]

Just go the brute force way -- put all illegal importers and certificate document forgers to jail, plus a million Euro and 10 years per death. Simple, brute force, and will be effective.

Brute force rarely works, if ever. If that were to be true, countries with very severe penalties would be virtually crime free, while countries with more relaxed judicial systems would be crime riddled. If you look at the numbers, the opposite seems to be mostly true, with some exceptions on both sides.

Even though the primal urge to be harsh is understandable, we really need to stop giving in to it if we want to improve society. What feels right and what actually turns out to be effective aren't necessarily the same thing.

[Kjelt]

Let manufacturers build DC devices and let the consumers buy a certified dc power supply in their own country.

PSU is extremely cost sensitive. It's common for a Level VI/CoC Tier II 5V 2A adapter with worldwide certificates to be manufactured for <$3.
The cheapest CUI 5V 2A PSU with Level VI and CoC II is $4.69 in quantity from Future, and I believe its cost is definitely less than $3.
Can you make one for that price in Netherlands? Can you make one for twice or even thrice the price in Netherlands?

Probably not but that is beside the point. A good decent designed and built and certified psu can be made in Asia on a large order of a local company that will certify it to the real EU norms and be sold by that company locally. What we do not want is unsafe mains powered devices of any sort being bought by consumers without any knowledge and blindly shipped and delivered to such consumers.
This is not only about mains connected devices, we have here those terrible green lasers with 100mW power blinding pilots on landing aircrafts and schoolchildren some lost their vision in their eyes for life. It is highly illegal here and is not allowed to be sold but on the internet you can buy them and they will be  shipped. Same for illegal fireworks, tasers, guns and so on.

[MK14]

Just go the brute force way -- put all illegal importers and certificate document forgers to jail, plus a million Euro and 10 years per death. Simple, brute force, and will be effective.

That and/or similar things would work, and to a large extent, already exists and is carried out in practice. I.e. If a bricks and Mortar Shop, tries to sell illegal/unsafe goods/items/services, the authorities will often, soon crack down on them. Shut them down and potentially imprison the orchestrators of the bad organisation.
But in some less well off, parts of the UK, there can be these run down shops, who sell very cheap items. Those items can be illegal to sell in the UK (as in they have not been electrically compliance tested and do not meet the EU rules and regulations for items that can be sold). E.g. Fake chargers (potentially unsafe ones).
From time to time, the Authorities (such as the Police), handle/crackdown such organisations.

But the thing which seems to get easily onto the UK market, WITHOUT any real checks. Is ebay (and other methods), mail order parcels, from (often) China. These can easily be fakes, unsafe, poor quality, etc etc.
They are usually extremely cheap, which probably makes UK buyers, buy them like crazy.
At least I can truthfully say, I never, ever buy such items.
Ok, some of the electrical goods, are so temptingly priced, and if they don't connect to the mains, or have potentially fire hazard lithium batteries in them. It can be worth a try, for some, otherwise very hard and expensive items to get hold of.
E.g. I recently bought a USB to midi adaptor for around £3.36, including postage (at that price, who cares if it doesn't work, but reviews, mostly say it will work).

[vk6zgo]

Even the official Apple cords are as thin as they can make them. They aren't that robust. I have lots of them and Ive had lots of them fail on me. Ive stopped buying Apple products pretty much now. Thats one of the reasons.

Even without any internal faults, I often worry about chargers plugged into a power board along with a lot of other devices.

It would not be hard for one of these skinny leads to be caught under another plug, with the soft, low voltage insulation breached by the Active pin of (particularly), an Oz plug ( the corners of the pins of which are quite sharp).

It shouldn't happen with modern plugs where the first cm or so is covered in insulation, but Australian plugs are very durable, & there are plenty of the older ones still in service, not to mention the very similar Chinese ones, which (correct me if I'm wrong), don't have the insulation on the pins.

[MK14]

They are usually extremely cheap, which probably makes UK buyers, buy them like crazy.

When can people learn the old saying, you get what you paid for.
It's no longer exactly true with globalization, you can get $300 Chinese phones that is on par with $600 Samsung, but there's ultimately a limit.
You never get $10 goods beating $100 goods (besides pirate IP, which has no incremental cost at all), no matter where and how these are made, who and where these are sold.

You're right, of course. But human nature is such, that many people will buy such things, in practice.

If in Vietnam, a real Apple charger is $89, and the (might be fake) one, but which looks similar, and seems to work ok, is $8.99 . Also, if the country, tends to have limited amounts of money floating about.
I can understand why many people, will buy the $8.99 ones, rather than the official Apple $89.99 ones.
N.B. Prices are made up, as I don't know the prices in Vietnam. But I bet the fake chargers are a fraction of the price of the real ones (or there is some horrible product scamming going on there).

[rsjsouza]

They are usually extremely cheap, which probably makes UK buyers, buy them like crazy.

When can people learn the old saying, you get what you paid for.
It's no longer exactly true with globalization, you can get $300 Chinese phones that is on par with $600 Samsung, but there's ultimately a limit.
You never get $10 goods beating $100 goods (besides pirate IP, which has no incremental cost at all), no matter where and how these are made, who and where these are sold.

You're right, of course. But human nature is such, that many people will buy such things, in practice.

If in Vietnam, a real Apple charger is $89, and the (might be fake) one, but which looks similar, and seems to work ok, is $8.99 . Also, if the country, tends to have limited amounts of money floating about.
I can understand why many people, will buy the $8.99 ones, rather than the official Apple $89.99 ones.
N.B. Prices are made up, as I don't know the prices in Vietnam. But I bet the fake chargers are a fraction of the price of the real ones (or there is some horrible product scamming going on there).

My brother lives in Argentina and he mentioned how impossible it is to find original/official chargers for his iPad and S5 phones. The ones he was able to purchase were utter garbage to the point his iPad stayed unusable for a few months until I got some chargers from the US.
As someone else pointed out, some countries do not have the good or even average stuff sold in the aftermarket.

[cdev]

Also many people would not buy an $89 charger "on principle".

[vk6zgo]

Some people believe it or not DON'T know that its dangerous to use electrical appliances in the bathtub/bathroom.

The generation who were at least informed by Hunter S. Thompson's work have aged out of the system.

----

I think pressure should be put on companies like Apple to both lower the price for replacements for the original charger and make them using substantially more robust (thicker) components like cables AND add really good strain relief, both so they last longer and so that imitators will be forced to use thicker cables too.

Yes, in third world countries, electricity is still relatively new. The general public still doesn't fully understand how to use it properly and need to be educated.

In first world countries, the general public have forgotten that electricity is dangerous.

In the past, if you wanted anything more serious than a pocket transistor radio, you knew that the device had to be plugged into the Mains, as batteries  just couldn't "hack it".

Now, all the "devices" people play with are portable & battery operated, so there has been a mental disconnection with the idea of Mains power.
Even when they use a charger, it still doesn't quite "sink in" there is a source of major grief on the other side of that power socket it is plugged into.

This disconnection with the real world is seen in other areas, too.
Young people believe they have a "God given" right to wander across roads, or even up the centre of them, & scream blue murder if they get hit by a car.

Another thing is candles:-
Everybody of the older generations were told by their parents that you never left a candle burning unattended for more than a few minutes, never, ever put them near curtains or drapes, & never, ever, ever ( yes, they were very repetitive) left little children alone with them .

These days, every winter, we read about house fires caused by candles left unattended by people who couldn't pay the electricity bill (spent it all on drugs?).

At least the third world people know how dangerous fire is!

[MK14]

My brother lives in Argentina and he mentioned how impossible it is to find original/official chargers for his iPad and S5 phones. The ones he was able to purchase were utter garbage to the point his iPad stayed unusable for a few months until I got some chargers from the US.
As someone else pointed out, some countries do not have the good or even average stuff sold in the aftermarket.

That sounds, really, really horrible.
I guess that if there is very little market, for the more expensive stuff. Then only the really cheap (and nasty) stuff, gets sold on the market.
Part of the issue, is that things like mobile phones, and Apple products, are seen as "MUST HAVE" items, by the younger generations. So they will obtain such things, even if the country can't really afford such items, and even if they have been sold, fake/dangerous, poor quality items.
I guess part of it, is the modern, globalised world we live in today.

In the 1900 .. 1960's, people lived perfectly well without, many of the modern things, like mobile phones, microwave ovens, and even TVs (especially colour ones), before the 1970s (most people around the world).

In the UK recently, I was disappointed, to see a person, walking along, continually looking at their mobile phone. Then stopping for a few minutes and (apparently), sending texts. Why can't they just walk to where they are going, and leave the phone alone.

But yes, your relatives (and friends), should be able, to buy reasonable quality and safe, chargers in Argentina. The fact they couldn't, is disappointing.

[MK14]

Also many people would not buy an $89 charger "on principle".

That's true. I probably chose too high a price for that example. But that was to try and emphasise the concept of how expensive the real items are, and how cheap the fakes can be.

This thread, seems to be highlighting, so many things which are probably wrong with modern, global (world wide), societies. Safety training, rich/poor ratios (as in available spending money, per person) being possibly too big on a world wide scale, fakes existing, unsafe practices in some countries, exploitative global companies (I'm not mentioning names here, Apple), and probably most importantly (as regards this thread), proper certification of items, so they are safe, on a world wide basis . Also many other things, I expect.

[Mr. Scram]

That sounds, really, really horrible.
I guess that if there is very little market, for the more expensive stuff. Then only the really cheap (and nasty) stuff, gets sold on the market.
Part of the issue, is that things like mobile phones, and Apple products, are seen as "MUST HAVE" items, by the younger generations. So they will obtain such things, even if the country can't really afford such items, and even if they have been sold, fake/dangerous, poor quality items.
I guess part of it, is the modern, globalised world we live in today.

In the 1900 .. 1960's, people lived perfectly well without, many of the modern things, like mobile phones, microwave ovens, and even TVs (especially colour ones), before the 1970s (most people around the world).

In the UK recently, I was disappointed, to see a person, walking along, continually looking at their mobile phone. Then stopping for a few minutes and (apparently), sending texts. Why can't they just walk to where they are going, and leave the phone alone.

But yes, your relatives (and friends), should be able, to buy reasonable quality and safe, chargers in Argentina. The fact they couldn't, is disappointing.

Get off the lawn, gramps. You're in the way of progress.

[MK14]

Get off the lawn, gramps. You're in the way of progress.

I was just asking for a richly deserved comment like that. 

But I don't really like the concept of "Every one must have everything, now", even if they live in North Korea, and haven't got a job or anything.

I.e. I partly put the blame of this incident on some modern trends. The girl, must have been overly obsessed by the phone (facebook maybe), to be having it, along with the charger in her bed, with her. If you understand what I mean.

At least in my case, the oscilloscope helps keep the bed warm, the multimeter is nice to look at if I get bored, and the signal generator, makes nice soothing noises, which help me get to sleep faster 

[amyk]

From what I've seen, those cheap Chinese chargers often get nearly everything right; and would be perfectly fine, if it weren't for some tiny flaw which compromises the safety (like a track routed right across the isolation clearance.)

Perhaps it would be a good idea to design a minimal PSU with very low cost yet sufficient isolation/safety and in the same style as the Apple ones, with the explicit goal of getting as many of the Chinese manufacturers as possible to clone the design 100%, thus solving most of the problem with horrible isolation clearances. Transformer isolation is a different matter, but we could at least fix one problem at a time...

[Cyberdragon]

From what I've seen, those cheap Chinese chargers often get nearly everything right; and would be perfectly fine, if it weren't for some tiny flaw which compromises the safety (like a track routed right across the isolation clearance.)

Perhaps it would be a good idea to design a minimal PSU with very low cost yet sufficient isolation/safety and in the same style as the Apple ones, with the explicit goal of getting as many of the Chinese manufacturers as possible to clone the design 100%, thus solving most of the problem with horrible isolation clearances. Transformer isolation is a different matter, but we could at least fix one problem at a time...

From what I've seen, those cheap Chinese chargers often get nearly everything right; and would be perfectly fine, if it weren't for some tiny flaw which compromises the safety (like a track routed right across the isolation clearance.)

Perhaps it would be a good idea to design a minimal PSU with very low cost yet sufficient isolation/safety and in the same style as the Apple ones, with the explicit goal of getting as many of the Chinese manufacturers as possible to clone the design 100%, thus solving most of the problem with horrible isolation clearances. Transformer isolation is a different matter, but we could at least fix one problem at a time...

No, all of the components are bad too. non-Y capacitor, cheap PCB, poor regulation, cheap filter caps...

[Mr. Scram]

From what I've seen, those cheap Chinese chargers often get nearly everything right; and would be perfectly fine, if it weren't for some tiny flaw which compromises the safety (like a track routed right across the isolation clearance.)

Perhaps it would be a good idea to design a minimal PSU with very low cost yet sufficient isolation/safety and in the same style as the Apple ones, with the explicit goal of getting as many of the Chinese manufacturers as possible to clone the design 100%, thus solving most of the problem with horrible isolation clearances. Transformer isolation is a different matter, but we could at least fix one problem at a time...

Considering the talent some manufacturers have for eliminating safety features to shave a few cents, I think that might actually backfire. People know the good units, and don't realize their units doesn't have proper isolation or filtering because the manufacturer didn't want to pay for something like an optocoupler or properly constructed transformer.

You see this happening in a lot of products, like the cheap LCR units, or some multimeters. They start out being properly designed and specced, but slowly some manufacturers start changing out parts that are often vital for safe, accurate or proper operation. The price difference is negligible, but competition fierce and the pressure therefore huge.

[Cyberdragon]

No, all of the components are bad too. non-Y capacitor, cheap PCB, poor regulation, cheap filter caps...

I've never seen non-Y caps in place of a Y cap, there are some non certified ones, or certified to local standard ones, but I've never seen a non-Y cap in that range.
In fact, for the sake of scale of economy, I highly doubt if a non-Y cap will be cheaper than a real Y cap, since for that capacitance and voltage combo, it seems Y caps is the biggest application.
99 out of 100 times, PCB is not the one that causes excessive leakage.
Poor regulation and cheap caps don't contribute to electrocution hazard. Device damage or (less likely) fire hazard may be related to poor caps and poor regulation, though.

The only thing that I think can (practically) cause electrocution under normal condition (no transient, no wet environment) is bad PCB design and extremely poor xfmr implementation.

Watch some videos on Youtube. They use the cheapest ceramic cap where the Y cap is supposed to be. Is it the right voltage? No, probably not, but if it doesn't explode instantly it's good enough for them.

[amyk]

Watch some videos on Youtube. They use the cheapest ceramic cap where the Y cap is supposed to be. Is it the right voltage? No, probably not, but if it doesn't explode instantly it's good enough for them.

Mind drop a link? That sounds interesting.

You don't even need to watch videos, the link I put in my previous post has an example - it's #7 there:

http://lygte-info.dk/pic/USB%20PS%20test/7/DSC_1477a.jpg

The back also shows the situation I mentioned earlier --- decent isolation except, for want of a Y cap, someone put the trace for it right in the middle of that isolation :

http://lygte-info.dk/pic/USB%20PS%20test/7/DSC_1478a.jpg

...although if you look at the summary table at the bottom of the page I linked, that one did pass a 2.5kV hi-pot (but not the 5kV, which is technically already slightly higher than the safety standard requires, so don't read too much into that.)

[Cyberdragon]

It's hard to find the exact videos where I saw them, but here's one.



I remember others with even smaller caps, sometimes even sticking up on spindly long leads.

[Brumby]

What we could do with is more product inspection and enforcement of standards as well. Ebay has been a brilliant vehicle for cheap dangerous rubbish to travel all over the world. the chinese company put CE on it, you buy if from them, ebay don't know or care about CE marking so your left to deal with a foreign seller, well you just don't bother.

No amount of training will help people spot dodgy products and to be honest we all know that water and electricity don't mix so the giuy that killed himself in the bath tub fully deserved it.

The UK, should really enforce the laws, and make sure that items, which people commonly buy. From bricks and mortar shops, and mail order (including abroad). Should meet all the regulations (and especially be safe).
I'm NOT sure what the best solution going forwards, is going to be. But something should really be done about it.

EDIT:
Maybe the solution, is to make a law, so that only items that meet the regulations (certification etc), are allowed to be imported. I.e. they don't electrocute people, catch on fire, contain hazardous substances, pay all taxes (including VAT, import dties etc) and meet other sensible regulations.

I think if you look, you will find that those laws already exist - certainly in Australia (as I understand it) and quite likely in the UK and the EU, I would guess.

The problem is the that these laws apply to the importer - and for the online shopper buying overseas, they are the importer.  So, strictly speaking, they have accepted the risk.  IANAL, but my understanding is that as far as prosecution is concerned, if they try to re-sell non-compliant merchandise, then they will fall foul - but I'm not sure where self use falls.

Any reason makes you think CUI sells non safe products? CUI is one of the world's best PSU manufacturer, in the same league of Phihon and Flextronics, only one tier below Delta/Emerson/whatever-super-high-quality-telecom-PSU-maker.

If making it locally (the Neverlands or wherever), costs a lot more, but is the only reliable way to make things safe. Then that is what we may need to do.

Just go the brute force way -- put all illegal importers and certificate document forgers to jail, plus a million Euro and 10 years per death. Simple, brute force, and will be effective.

You could be lining up tens of thousands of people for the courts.

[Mjolinor]

Not exactly safety related but a good example of Chinese design.

Spot what they did at this ultrasonic cleaner PCB to convert it from 110 volts to 230:

[wasyoungonce]

Gotta say...something is not right here.  The Charger is 110V version straight pins NZ is 230V AC.  Yes some motels have 110V sockets but usually in the bathrooms.

Did she plug it into 230V?   Yes I know many chargers are mutl-voltage input ok but hell that looks to be a very cheap charger unit.

Edit: Ahhh it happened in Vietnam.   Explain the 110V charger but apparently Vietnam is generally 220V.

[Mjolinor]

It is a multi input voltage charger. I have an identical one here in the UK.

[chris_leyson]

Check out Ken Shirriff's blog for a teardown of the iPad and iPhone chargers. A very good read. I really like the Dialog Semiconductor controller chips iW1691 and iW1699B.

http://www.righto.com/2014/05/a-look-inside-ipad-chargers-pricey.html
http://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-quality.html#ref12
https://www.dialog-semiconductor.com/sites/default/files/iw1691_datasheet.pdf
https://www.dialog-semiconductor.com/sites/default/files/iw1699b_product_summary.pdf

[amyk]

Expensive and overengineered, not uncommon for Apple. I'll go so far as to say if they used a simpler design with fewer components they might have gotten even better creepage distances and not require such a high density to fit in the same space. Two optocouplers, seriously...