Author Topic: The Digispark or "Idiots buying idiotic s**t" (Read 23141 times)

Christopher · « **on:** August 21, 2012, 05:07:05 pm »

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/digistump/digispark-the-tiny-arduino-enabled-usb-dev-board

Just an attiny85 on a board and USB connector on the PCB.

Routed badly and really not worth it, considering the cost for components+board in that kind of qty is like $5 a pop...

Thoughts?

Short Circuit · « **Reply #1 on:** August 21, 2012, 05:45:18 pm »

3361 backers think different obviously...

KTP · « **Reply #2 on:** August 21, 2012, 06:20:24 pm »

Quote from: Christopher on August 21, 2012, 05:07:05 pm

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/digistump/digispark-the-tiny-arduino-enabled-usb-dev-board

Just an attiny85 on a board and USB connector on the PCB.

Routed badly and really not worth it, considering the cost for components+board in that kind of qty is like $5 a pop...

Thoughts?

So they are selling them in single quantity for $10, and you estimate the cost of components + board + assembly + testing is $5. They will have some number of failures and returns. There was significant time and effort I would guess in design and marketing. And you think $5 profit on this is too much? LOL

Don't go into manufacturing.

tom66 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 21, 2012, 06:23:32 pm »

Looks good; only comment I'd make is for an ATTiny and a ~50mA of IO, 10mA of CPU, that LDO looks a bit overkill.

I figure 5.25V in, 3.3V out @ 60mA = ~0.12W

Bored@Work · « **Reply #4 on:** August 21, 2012, 06:30:04 pm »

Man, if I have to read shit like this

Quote

we were tired of leaving our valuable Arduino's behind in projects

I'd like to vomit.

Dude, don't start a project with a fucking Arduino, if you can't afford that overpriced junk.

Fraser · « **Reply #5 on:** August 21, 2012, 06:53:46 pm »

I have no need for the item, but I was interested in the pictures of the board.

If I were looking for backing I would at least produce a decent looking prototype with well soldered components. The quality of soldering and on the pictured PCB is shocking ! He even managed to get solder on the plated USB connections .... pretty crap looking.

This guy needs some marketing lessons from Dave !

poorchava · « **Reply #6 on:** August 21, 2012, 07:53:33 pm »

Rotfl, does he really have traces routed at 90* in there?

btw. I won't buy it or back it up, encourage it or anything, because i think that one has to be retarded or something to use arduino when he/she can use a proper microcontroller programmed with C and guess what... not have to worry about leaving your development tool/board inside the product (who does such thing anyway?)

Christopher · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2012, 08:09:14 pm »

Quote from: poorchava on August 21, 2012, 07:53:33 pm

Rotfl, does he really have traces routed at 90* in there?

btw. I won't buy it or back it up, encourage it or anything, because i think that one has to be retarded or something to use arduino when he/she can use a proper microcontroller programmed with C and guess what... not have to worry about leaving your development tool/board inside the product (who does such thing anyway?)

Your own designed minimal AVR PCB is much better, than this! You can get 10 boards from seeed for like $10, uC is cheap and not much passives needed.

What i'm pointing out is the fact this board is so so simple, these twonks should be able to create a similar one themselves... i mean there's like 10 components on the board max? Hardly requires 10 years of engineering experience and a masters to create your own simple simple board for a micro...

Bored@Work · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2012, 09:35:51 pm »

Quote from: poorchava on August 21, 2012, 07:53:33 pm

not have to worry about leaving your development tool/board inside the product (who does such thing anyway?)

Who does? Arduino people apparently do. Because they sit in their self-selected Arduino ghetto . By their own choice they have no alternative, but to leave the Arduino in.

tom66 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 21, 2012, 09:50:53 pm »

Arduino has it's uses, and has got many people interested in electronics who would otherwise not be interested. Agreed, it's not a brilliant platform (there are several flaws in selecting an AVR alone - but let's not get started.) Looks interesting, I wouldn't buy it as I have no need, but $140,000 says that just a few people are interested. And that's all that really matters in the end.

mgregg · « **Reply #10 on:** August 21, 2012, 10:05:13 pm »

There is a lot of hate in this thread.

That board looks to be designed well enough, and 90 deg traces shouldn't cause issues on that small thing.

$10 is a good price for these things at this volume. As another poster pointed out, the parts are nearly 50% of the cost. There is going to be some assembly and packaging labor. There will also be shipping costs.

And calling these boards idiotic is simply not fair, even if you do not like Arduino's.

poptones · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2012, 02:09:48 am »

Do you really think this thing cots $5 to make? 1000 lot prices on that chip are like 70 cents, and with 140K in their pocket surely they can go to 5000 or even 10,000 lots. My bet is the board costs maybe 2.50 to make in panels.

28 bucks for three doesn't sound too bad. My problem with it is the limited i/o and the fact I can use a 14 pin device with a six pin header and get more functionality for less than a buck.

RCMR · « **Reply #12 on:** August 22, 2012, 03:24:26 am »

I say "good on him".

He's had the testicular fortitude to build a prototype, solicit for funding and more than achieve his target.

Who cares if it costs just $0.70 to build it -- all those who ante'd up with the money must feel they're getting *value* so what's the problem?

The *real* thing this guy has done is perhaps inspire others to sit down, design and build a really good bit of kit then go seek funding in the same way.

Here in NZ, taxpayers have poured a million bucks in to a jet-pack driven by a snowmobile motor for Christ's sake! Now *that* is a folly and a rip-off -- except that when your government does it, it's called "investment".

Pffffft!

poptones · « **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2012, 03:26:40 am »

ROTFL. But audio engineers are shills?

HardBoot · « **Reply #14 on:** August 22, 2012, 03:35:11 am »

All that money given away for what?
He's already made and designed the thing, it's just funding to outsource development.

slateraptor · « **Reply #15 on:** August 22, 2012, 03:39:45 am »

Holy shit, US$143k to fund an effective sub-US$1 BOM?!?! *CHACHING*

Nirios · « **Reply #16 on:** August 22, 2012, 04:21:00 am »

The quality or price does not concern me. I am just happy to see more people getting into electronics and DIY/OSH activities.

EEVblog · « **Reply #17 on:** August 22, 2012, 07:50:51 am »

Quote from: slateraptor on August 22, 2012, 03:39:45 am

Holy shit, US$143k to fund an effective sub-US$1 BOM?!?! *CHACHING*

Wish you'd have done it huh?

In any case, they'd want to making a whopping margin on nickle and dime stuff like this because the time overhead of postage and handling will kill him.

Dave.

poorchava · « **Reply #18 on:** August 22, 2012, 08:39:04 am »

Btw, does anyone know if there is any controlling of the funds committed to the project? I mean dos the guy simply get $140k for presenting a movie with blinking led and designing something that half-witted junio high school kid can do? Or does he have to submit some report regarding the usage of funds?

GeoffS · « **Reply #19 on:** August 22, 2012, 10:32:03 am »

From the Kickstarter Terms of Use:

"Kickstarter does not oversee the performance or punctuality of projects ..."

I take that to mean that as long as Kickstarter get their fees, any problem with the product's non appearance is a matter for the backers.

timcki · « **Reply #20 on:** August 22, 2012, 06:28:22 pm »

Is this guy the new guy to hate this week because he did something you didn't??
He took his idea, asked for backers, made his product and brought it to market...
How much money he makes or loses on his product is really none of your business.
You either want to buy the product or not.
If you don't want to use his product, move on.

westfw · « **Reply #21 on:** August 23, 2012, 03:50:45 am »

Quote

All that money given away for what?

People aren't "giving away" money; they're making "advanced purchases" of the Digispark boards at $8-10 each. That's pretty much the essence of a good kickstarter campaign; the "contributors" get a product at a price they would have paid anyway, giving up quick delivery for the "feel-good" of having helped something off the ground.

Quote

He's already made and designed the thing, it's just funding to outsource development.

Outsource manufacturing, and/or fund his experiment in being an electronics device vendor. Yep. That's pretty much when you need funding. Designing a thing is pretty much free for an individual. Shipping 15k of them takes some up-front cash. $140k may sound like a lot, but the guy has a lot of work ahead of him too. I hope he ends up thinking it was worth it. (Designing things is fun. Moving stuff from bulk bins into individual packaging and sticking address labels on them and carting them to the post office; not so much.) (all this assuming that he doesn't take the money and run, of course. I'd have thought that if that were common, it would have made a bigger splash than: http://www.theonion.com/video/internet-scam-alert-most-kickstarter-projects-just,28655/ )

I signed up for 5. WTH; cheaper than dinner out with the family.

Want to join the action? I've got lots of ideas for little single-board computers that might be interesting enough to get some funding. How about a "modern" 8051 hobbyist board, to replace HandyBoard and such. Maybe based on an SILabs C8051F501 or similar, 32k external RAM and USB connectivity. All you have to do is design a low-cost board, make sure it works, figure out how to buy/manufacturer it in various quantities that match up with kickstarter goal points, start the campaign, probably get a business license, figure out how to ship everywhere without getting branded as an arms exporter or terrorist, do the manufacturing, packages and ship the results. Bonus points for tying SDCC and/or an open source assembler into an easy-to-use multi-platform IDE (arduino or wiring would be ok.) I don't particularly feel like building my own, but I'd be happy to pre-pay arduino-like prices for two or three to pay with...

urbanwriter · « **Reply #22 on:** August 23, 2012, 04:07:47 am »

As of a few minutes ago there were 3,696 'backers, accounting for a total of 14,279 Digispark units. Apparently the Ayn Rand engineers missed the point on this thing.

First, I suspect that not many people ever left their arduino 'in' something, and, like test gear, it's their property to do with as they please. The naysayers might think of that. Oh, and look up the definition of irony. Or, if the video was hiding it in plain sight, sarcasm.

I know that many of the technically competent posters are fully conversant with Dip-Trace, Gerbers, G-code, solder mask, Altium, Haas CNC, have established relationships with board houses who never foul up their boards, can design and produce their own PCBs in under five minutes at home, have a full range of carbide drills and the appropriate drill-press. Apparently many of the technically competent can program in 27 different languages, troubleshoot circuits from the simplest relaxation oscillator to systems that have hot-end extruders run by IBM 370 'frames, communicating over a combination of Xbee and 300 baud modems (yes, the acoustically coupled ones in the wooden boxes, dial phone) and never worry about a lack of skills, parts, knowledge.

Some of us however (this is me, particularly) want something I can afford to blow up, throw out, give away, not fully understand, curse, and delight in.

If having fun makes me an idiot, well, I'm a drooling idiot.

Maybe you could think about the possibility of adding to the Arduino environment - oh, no, it's a ghetto - rather than bad-mouthing not only the guy who presents the product, the now 3,700 backers. That's right, while you're whining, thousands of people see possibilities.

Now, back to having some fun. Where did I put that Taser?

poptones · « **Reply #23 on:** August 23, 2012, 04:12:54 am »

Maybe I'm nuts then, I kinda like shipping. For a while I was an ebay power seller, shipping a few dozen units a week. I was spending about two days a week handling shipping labels (that is NOT FUN the way ebay has it set up)bagging up stuff, labeling it and carting it off to the post office. It was fun because it was MONEY.

I say good for this fellow. He's doing what he wants to be doing (one would assume) and offering something lots of people see VALUE in. Oh no! More of that subjective stuff!

EEVblog · « **Reply #24 on:** August 23, 2012, 06:25:07 am »

There is absolutely nothing to complain about here, unlike the Tangibot thing.
He made changes to an existing OSHW product and is getting the product manufactured.
On a low cost product like this you simply MUST make a massive margin to make it worthwhile. A lot more than the usual x2.5-x3 figure often bandied about.
The time and effort you spend on organising the manufacture, support and shipping, potentially a reseller margin, and presumably testing as well, you would be absolutely batshit crazy to sell a $1 BOM item for anything less than say $5 a pop retail.
I think his pricing is pretty much spot on.

Dave.

Bored@Work · « **Reply #25 on:** August 23, 2012, 06:58:44 pm »

Quote from: urbanwriter on August 23, 2012, 04:07:47 am

I know that many of the technically competent posters are fully conversant with ...

All you have just demonstrated is envy. Well, you are of course free to bath in your incompetence and nurse is. These days many people do it. It is a sign of the times to be proud of not being capable of doing something. And then buying your way out by purchasing a fashion icon.

You might think you are looking cool, but I am old fashioned. And really, it is laughable when someone with no ambition tries to tell us we should shut up.

Thor-Arne · « **Reply #26 on:** August 23, 2012, 10:26:48 pm »

Hi guys.

First there's a lot of good points in this thread, both good and bad IMO.

Designspark
The product it self might have quite a few uses. I think the guy had a good idea, and I would like to see many ideas like this in the future - both arduino related and not. IMO these kind of cheap boards widen the interest for electronics, and can be nothing but positive. And if the guy can start a business and actually make a few bucks, that's even better.

Arduino
Arduino is a great concept, it allow people with little or no knowledge of electronics to get started (I helped people getting started myself). One can even get away without having to solder a board (shield) if one wants.

Leaving the arduino in the finished product?
Well, some do just that, shield and everything.

Some get their boards manufactured and just solder inn the mcu (have seen the 328 with crystal and caps sold online), perhaps after extensive testing - which is a good ting for beginners.
And there's always the Arduino nano (China model sells at approx. $13), and this gives you two additional analog ports.

Arduino community
That's another story; calling it a ghetto might not be fair, IMO there's it's more flames, sarcasm and general trolling than actual helpful comment - especially towards newbies that perhaps doesn't even know how to describe their problem.
Even a simple and helpful respond to a newbies question can result in undesirable comments to ones post.

Bottom line
Sure, better mcu's exist, handpicked to the actual project.
But this is not what Arduino is about, it's about a low entry point to the world of micro controllers at an affordable price.

And before you ask: Yes, I have several Arduinos.

westfw · « **Reply #27 on:** August 23, 2012, 11:02:49 pm »

Quote

All you have just demonstrated is envy.

Yep. Go on back to being bored at work, while he has fun!

slateraptor · « **Reply #28 on:** August 24, 2012, 04:36:14 am »

Quote from: Bored@Work on August 23, 2012, 06:58:44 pm

All you have just demonstrated is envy. Well, you are of course free to bath in your incompetence and nurse is. These days many people do it. It is a sign of the times to be proud of not being capable of doing something. And then buying your way out by purchasing a fashion icon.

You might think you are looking cool, but I am old fashioned. And really, it is laughable when someone with no ambition tries to tell us we should shut up.

Engineer's gospel of the day. Amen.

amyk · « **Reply #29 on:** August 24, 2012, 07:49:45 am »

Quote from: westfw on August 23, 2012, 03:50:45 am

Want to join the action? I've got lots of ideas for little single-board computers that might be interesting enough to get some funding. How about a "modern" 8051 hobbyist board, to replace HandyBoard and such. Maybe based on an SILabs C8051F501 or similar, 32k external RAM and USB connectivity.

8051 is considered "old-fashioned" and difficult to use, so it hasn't been as popular among hobbyists as AVRs and (to a lesser degree now) PICs. But it's still great for high-volume applications because they're really cheap. I think it'll be hard to convince the AVR/Arduino crowd to migrate to 8051, even harder than it is to get them to PIC.

HackedFridgeMagnet · « **Reply #30 on:** August 24, 2012, 12:51:04 pm »

Quote

Quote
All you have just demonstrated is envy. Well, you are of course free to bath in your incompetence and nurse is. These days many people do it. It is a sign of the times to be proud of not being capable of doing something. And then buying your way out by purchasing a fashion icon.

You might think you are looking cool, but I am old fashioned. And really, it is laughable when someone with no ambition tries to tell us we should shut up.

Engineer's gospel of the day. Amen.

that quote really doesn't make much sense, on it's own, in a gospel, with or without what it is referring too. please be clearer.
nurse his? or neurosis? ok it's probably neurosis.

T4P · « **Reply #31 on:** August 24, 2012, 01:20:55 pm »

Quote from: amyk on August 24, 2012, 07:49:45 am

Quote from: westfw on August 23, 2012, 03:50:45 am
Want to join the action? I've got lots of ideas for little single-board computers that might be interesting enough to get some funding. How about a "modern" 8051 hobbyist board, to replace HandyBoard and such. Maybe based on an SILabs C8051F501 or similar, 32k external RAM and USB connectivity.
8051 is considered "old-fashioned" and difficult to use, so it hasn't been as popular among hobbyists as AVRs and (to a lesser degree now) PICs. But it's still great for high-volume applications because they're really cheap. I think it'll be hard to convince the AVR/Arduino crowd to migrate to 8051, even harder than it is to get them to PIC.

At the fair least at the prices of modern 8051's you get a shitload of storage and speed

ToddFun · « **Reply #32 on:** August 25, 2012, 01:26:57 am »

I'm proud to be a backer of Digispark. I backed it weeks ago. Normally when I finish a project I just build up my own arduino clone on some perf-board with just the needed pins, like I did here:
http://www.toddfun.com/2011/01/01/making-a-custom-arduino-board-to-hack-a-christmas-photo-frame/
I don't even use the arduino boot loader in my clones.

When I seen this kickstarted I said "WOW great product! I could use that in some of my final projects and the cost is just right for a 3 pack.” Compared to other solutions digispark is smaller and will save me time when I'm just hacking something together for a friend’s idea. I love this product and now that my kids are getting into arduino I don't mind if they dedicate a digispark to the toys they hack. For now they will be able to hack more and when they are older I can teach them the more complicated way of building up their own boards.

This product helps everyone expand their horizons; it’s not just for “know it all hackers and engineers”. Arduino is very well established in the artist community and with electronics beginners who will greatly benefit from embedding a digispark or two in projects. I maybe a bit above their target audience but I still see uses in my weekend hacking projects and for helping artists and others get into the electronics hobby.

Short Circuit · « **Reply #33 on:** August 25, 2012, 02:04:23 am »

Quote from: ToddFun on August 25, 2012, 01:26:57 am

... and now that my kids are getting into arduino I don't mind if they dedicate a digispark to the toys they hack. For now they will be able to hack more and when they are older I can teach them the more complicated way of building up their own boards.

That is really cool, seriously!

Not that I'm particulary fond of Arduino or kids,
but this is the best combination I've come accross.

poptones · « **Reply #34 on:** August 25, 2012, 02:48:02 am »

That's a pretty good article, ToddFun. I'm more interested in this as an open source project, since it means he (hopefully) will soon be releasing some new arduino devkit avr code to make the attiny usb enabled without any extra hardware. That means the same code can be put into anything and a 4 pin dip USB header stuck on the board for isp reprogramming. Sweet! Better ability to make use of ISP and the minimal pin count - this is what open source is all about.

frenky · « **Reply #35 on:** August 28, 2012, 03:53:27 pm »

I also think that this Digispark project is a good thing for diy community...

Before I was not familiar with attiny but after seeing this kickstarter project I went on searching for attiny tutorials and bought 10 pcs of ATTINY85 from ebay for 17$ shipped.
How cool is that?

I love the fact that you can power it with CR2032 which is not possible with arduino.

I have made the shield for programming it with arduino (like here: http://hlt.media.mit.edu/?p=1695) and now the fun begins.

I think that many Digispark supporters will soon realise that they can buy the attiny chip alone and save some extra money...

westfw · « **Reply #36 on:** August 28, 2012, 09:37:20 pm »

Quote

10 pcs of ATTINY85 from ebay for 17$ shipped. How cool is that?

Not very. List price at Mouser is $1.08 in q10, so you might have saved slightly by having shipping included...

A CR2032 could power an ATmega328p (the cpu used in the full-sized Arduino); the two chips have very similar power consumption, according to the datasheet. The full Arduino board is another matter; there were no attempts to make it be a low-power device, so there are many components on the board that consume more power than is "necessary" for a minimal system.

The ability to buy bare chips for your Arduino-compatible project has always been a major attraction, but I think a lot of people end up with a thought process like: "This project took 100 hours of my time, worth $1500 or so. The difference between a $30 Arduino board and a $3 ATmega328 chip is ... irrelevant." Different economics apply for "production" quantities...

frenky · « **Reply #37 on:** August 29, 2012, 07:24:02 am »

I understand that price is not that important for those that are professionally working on these chips and making big bucks.

But for hobbyist who gets only a satisfaction (and a hole in a pocket) from diy projects the price is not irrelevant.
And the number of Digispark supporters shows that there are many that would like to have cheaper "arduino"...

andersm · « **Reply #38 on:** September 03, 2012, 12:17:18 am »

Quote from: westfw on August 23, 2012, 03:50:45 am

How about a "modern" 8051 hobbyist board, to replace HandyBoard and such. Maybe based on an SILabs C8051F501 or similar, 32k external RAM and USB connectivity.

This board has been for sale for several years. It's quite expensive, but I suppose much of the value comes from their driver and software.

craftycoder · « **Reply #39 on:** September 11, 2012, 02:20:27 pm »

I had a similar thought when I saw it. What does it do exactly? Very little. I think people will be disappointed when they get it but what do I know?

I recently posted a Kickstarter of my own. It is another small Arduino compatible AVR, but with a USB Host controller rather than whatever the Digispark has (he doesn't bother to explain it). Its got very little interest from the Kickstarter visitors though. Knowing what people want is not very easy to figure out. He clearly hit the nail on the head.

Quote from: Christopher on August 21, 2012, 05:07:05 pm

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/digistump/digispark-the-tiny-arduino-enabled-usb-dev-board

Just an attiny85 on a board and USB connector on the PCB.

Routed badly and really not worth it, considering the cost for components+board in that kind of qty is like $5 a pop...

Thoughts?

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #40 on:** October 30, 2012, 03:08:20 pm »

$300K+ backed he could retire a millionaire in my country or come with another bigger thing than arduino (no usb controller, direct usb to attiny85 with micronucleus?]http://digistump.com/board/index.php?p=/discussion/74/micronucleus-a-2-07kb-usb-bootloader-for-attiny85-chips]micronucleus?). item promised on 2013 i guess he's now busy as a professional solderer since from month back http://digistump.com/ congratulation again to him if its reality. i wish kickstarter can open up to many more countries


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Author Topic: The Digispark or "Idiots buying idiotic s**t" (Read 23141 times)

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