Author Topic: Let's talk about leaking batteries.  (Read 2330 times)

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Offline floobydust

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2018, 05:58:40 am »
I think the increased leakage is due to cost cutting.

Many brands were high quality, high price - only to get bought by a mega conglomerate and raided for cost improvement to deliver "accelerating revenue growth and increased shareholder value".

Alkaline batteries compete mainly on price, and capacity is all over the place. Why put more into a battery, consumers don't notice the extra hours.
We all put these batteries into very expensive equipment, beyond a toy or TV remote, so leaking causes great damage.

Looking at a couple alkaline battery seal patents, it seems the end-crimp closure is expensive and everyone moved to using glue instead.
The glues are attacked by the electrolyte. "zero added mercury" causes more corrosion. So lots of trouble, a cocktail of at least four glues; epoxy, silicone rubber, hot glue etc.  :palm:

US6605383 Energizer
US5332633 Duracell
 

Online IanB

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2018, 06:20:36 am »
Alkaline batteries compete mainly on price

This is not my observation. I observe that Duracell and Energizer are very expensive in spite of cost sensitive consumers, and so I conclude they must compete on brand image. I can buy a pack of 4 AA Sunbeam alkaline AA cells for $1, compared to a pack of 4 Energizer/Duracell for about $5 (maybe less in bulk or on special offer), with the added bonus that I have never seen a Sunbeam cell to leak. Furthermore the Sunbeam cells have more or less the same capacity. So I am left mystified about why Duracell and Energizer are still in the market?
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2018, 10:46:03 am »
Australia is quite different to class actions and consumer protections...in otherwords we have stuff all consumer protections.  We don't even have motor vehicle Lemon laws.  Halcyon mention we have some protections but these are rarely enforced especially by individuals. 

I'd have to disagree. We have some of the most powerful consumer laws in the world and retailers and manufacturers are picking up their game because of it. I've had a couple of claims over the years and while you might need to "educate" the person you're dealing with about your consumer rights (nicely of course), each time I've got a remedy without resorting to further action. People just need to read and understand their rights (the customer is not always right) and assert them when they are entitled to do so.

Increasingly, companies are getting some pretty serious fines and other sanctions for breaching consumer law. Apple Australia has been under the spotlight a number of times and were forced to explain the consumer law in conjunction with their own warranty terms more clearly on their website. Another is MSY (a computer parts retailer) who was fined $750,000.

No, we don't have "lemon laws" as such, but they are coming. In the mean time, the same consumer rights apply to motor vehicles bought from a dealer. If you don't get anywhere with the place that sold you the vehicle (or product), go directly to the manufacturer, that's your choice and neither can fob you off to the other.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 10:54:15 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2018, 08:25:10 pm »
All the batteries nowadays either leak and or or crust up, you can take that to the bank 

they are a coin toss at best

Don't blow your cash on overpriced DuraJell drummers or EnerJizzer bunnies    :-- :-- 

unless it's in smoke detectors so you can sue someone if they fail (if you survive the fire) as these two pos brands are 'recommended for smoke detectors'


I have reasonable luck and better run with cheapies like Toshiba and Camelion and save a bundle   (two dollar!  :clap: )

 

 

Online blueskull

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2018, 08:31:13 pm »
unless it's in smoke detectors so you can sue someone if they fail (if you survive the fire) as these two pos brands are 'recommended for smoke detectors'

I have reasonable luck and better run with cheapies like Toshiba and Camelion and save a bundle

I even use Energizer Lithium 6F22 on smoke detectors, just for the hope that they can last longer and I don't have to be waken up so frequently in the midnight by the chirps which I sometime can't even locate. Last time a smoke detector battery failed, I swapped 4 smoke detectors before pinpoint the exact one that chirped.

Toshiba, I don't think they sell to individuals, I think they are OEM only. At least I've never bought a single Toshiba separately.

In China we have a saying: once bitten by a snake, being afraid of ropes for life. I'm not broken enough not to afford lithium batteries, and I will stay away from alkaline for now.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2018, 04:56:47 am »
I started using LSD NiMH 9V batteries in my smoke alarms, I think they're "BATK" brand, so far so good. I had some of those expensive lithium ones for a while but they seemed to only last about twice as long as the much cheaper alkalines, nowhere near the 10 years claimed. Now I can just recharge the NiMH batteries twice a year or so and be done with it, no need to wait for the things to start chirping.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2018, 08:46:03 am »
unless it's in smoke detectors so you can sue someone if they fail (if you survive the fire) as these two pos brands are 'recommended for smoke detectors'

I have reasonable luck and better run with cheapies like Toshiba and Camelion and save a bundle

I even use Energizer Lithium 6F22 on smoke detectors, just for the hope that they can last longer
and I don't have to be waken up so frequently in the midnight by the chirps which I sometime can't even locate. Last time a smoke detector battery failed, I swapped 4 smoke detectors before pinpoint the exact one that chirped.

Toshiba, I don't think they sell to individuals, I think they are OEM only. At least I've never bought a single Toshiba separately.

In China we have a saying: once bitten by a snake, being afraid of ropes for life. I'm not broken enough not to afford lithium batteries, and I will stay away from alkaline for now.

I'll bet serious money there are fine dust particles or bits of insects and their deposits settled in those chirpers,

especially detectors near carpets and rugs, exterior entry doors and properties located near the sea or dusty dry areas

give them a careful blowout on all sides with a hair dryer on cold setting to clear out the sensor chamber/s or whatever it's called,

fit new batteries, check that BOTH the 9 volt connections are tight,
one may be a loose slacker and contribute to random chirping as the voltage decreases over time, 

refit, do a test (hold your ears)  and see what happens


This has worked for me EVERY TIME with different suspect detectors, new and vintage, 240 volt powered combos and cheapie battery ones,

all work flawlessly FOR ME (Disclaimer City) and family and friends
and frustrated clients in business premises that don't favor an expensive hard wired multiple swap out of detectors if they don't have to   

FWIW my final pre-walk away testing involves burning something nearby to trigger the detector/s,

not just pressing the test button and knocking on wood


My phone calender reminds me to do battery swap outs twice a year, but usually once is enough unless the weather has been extreme   

My multimeters score the old batteries which usually read 8.5 to 9 volts under load, good enough for a meter 


Occasionally you can come across a NEW bad battery that leaks or crusts up after a few months,
sometimes the entire batch may be affected if bought at the same time

and very old suspect detectors past 10 years that fail the above, should be replaced anyway with an affordable reputable brand or store rebadge,
not a cheap no-name


   
 
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2018, 09:28:00 am »
The Ni-MH 9V batteries 280mAh just cooked and died in Agilent U1252 multimeters, not sure why.

flooby, if your U1252 is cooking batteries, it's possible that the charger is malfunctioning. Mine was like that brand new and was replaced by Keysight.
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Offline wasyoungonce

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2018, 08:09:07 pm »
I'd have to disagree. We have some of the most powerful consumer laws in the world and retailers and manufacturers are picking up their game because of it. .....

Increasingly, companies are getting some pretty serious fines and other sanctions for breaching consumer law. Apple Australia has been under the spotlight a number of times and were forced to explain the consumer law in conjunction with their own warranty terms more clearly on their website. Another is MSY (a computer parts retailer) who was fined $750,000.

...

I know what your saying but these changes haven't been around for a great length of time yet we have very slack laws for our biggest asset purchases cars houses.  Too many companies Phoenix'ing like building companies, allowing purchase off the plan delaying building then upping the cost exorbitantly (allowed in contracts), VW sending letters to Australian owners asking them to sign a waiver they would not sue them or be liable for losses due to dieselgate. Companies refusing to pay superannuation payments yet the government does little to stop this.  The recent 7/11 wages saga is typical of Australian corporate thinking.

We also have damn poor consumer support for repairs here.  In USA you can order any part from any appliance on line.  I usually have to order said same parts from OS, they either won't sell them or only supply to "Authorised repairers"..which is a croc.

Anyway.../rant.
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2018, 08:54:59 pm »
I'd have to disagree. We have some of the most powerful consumer laws in the world and retailers and manufacturers are picking up their game because of it. .....

Increasingly, companies are getting some pretty serious fines and other sanctions for breaching consumer law. Apple Australia has been under the spotlight a number of times and were forced to explain the consumer law in conjunction with their own warranty terms more clearly on their website. Another is MSY (a computer parts retailer) who was fined $750,000.

...

I know what your saying but these changes haven't been around for a great length of time yet we have very slack laws for our biggest asset purchases cars houses.  Too many companies Phoenix'ing like building companies, allowing purchase off the plan delaying building then upping the cost exorbitantly (allowed in contracts), VW sending letters to Australian owners asking them to sign a waiver they would not sue them or be liable for losses due to dieselgate. Companies refusing to pay superannuation payments yet the government does little to stop this.  The recent 7/11 wages saga is typical of Australian corporate thinking.

We also have damn poor consumer support for repairs here.  In USA you can order any part from any appliance on line.  I usually have to order said same parts from OS, they either won't sell them or only supply to "Authorised repairers"..which is a croc.

Anyway.../rant.

Too right mate, it's snafu as usual and 'Buyer Beware'

The big cities are filling up with visa jumpers, graffitti, trash, homeless people on the streets,

non stop high rise shoe dog box housing that benefits the lowlife developers
and halfass skilled tradie neanderthals trying to convince us they are pros by wearing orange and green circus clobber, standing around performing OHS (SFA) and holding up traffic   

This so called 'progress' dumps homeless possums and wildlife in batttlers back yards to wreak havoc, and the birds eat and trash anything that grows

and infinite roadworks no one gas about anymore because it's a CONSTANT PITA and won't even benefit motorists in the future

Just money spinning for the serial richtards who will stink so hard when they die, cremation will be a must
or better still send these pos to the Sun in an unmarked r0cket

How is the governmint going to slow down these money hoarding clowns who are their mates and election time cash throwers?


That rant aside, just try sending a trashed big dollars multimeter eaten by expensive hyped batteries to the battery manufacturer or their rep here in Australia

Don't hold your breath waiting for a new meter, you may get a fresh pack of replacement batteries
and the knackered meter returned in a half open box with bonus cracked display and resident cockroach,
with some corporat excuse aka The Finger documentation saying it's your fault the batteries jizzed because it was operated in a professional device, likely beyond normal parameters

or some other cringe worthy lame excuse  :palm:

 

Offline TechieTX

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2018, 01:49:08 am »
I've replaced the batteries in things I care about (test gear and remotes) with primary Lithium cells.  They're not supposed to leak, and I haven't experienced any of them leaking yet.  Cheap-#ss Chinese electronics get whatever 'cos the product may not outlast the batteries.  ;)  I get around a 5 to 8 year shelf life on primary Lithium batteries, rarely any longer.

HOWEVER, the Lithium batteries are at least mildly "hazardous waste", and Alkalines can go in the local landfill here in Texas.  The US EPA doesn't regulate onesie-twosie home disposal of Lithium batteries, but they do in larger quantities.  Individual states are allowed to restrict Lithium batteries more strongly than the limits in 40 CFR; I haven't looked to see if any US states (or other countries) restrict them from homeowners.
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Online james_s

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2018, 02:44:37 am »
I don't know about the 1.5V lithium cells but I've seen numerous vintage computers completely destroyed by leaking lithium batteries of the 3V type used in 80s-90s Macs and some other machines. They leak on the motherboard dissolving components and traces and the vapors rust out all the steel in the machine. They're worse than any leaky alkaline I've seen. Hopefully the lithium AA cells are a different enough chemistry for that to not be an issue.
 

Online IanB

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2018, 02:52:02 am »
I don't know about the 1.5V lithium cells but I've seen numerous vintage computers completely destroyed by leaking lithium batteries of the 3V type used in 80s-90s Macs and some other machines. They leak on the motherboard dissolving components and traces and the vapors rust out all the steel in the machine. They're worse than any leaky alkaline I've seen. Hopefully the lithium AA cells are a different enough chemistry for that to not be an issue.

I believe lithium AA cells have the same corrosive alkaline electrolyte that alkaline cells have. The difference is that there is very little of it (the cells are almost dry inside), and more importantly the cells do not generate hydrogen gas that pressurizes the insides and squeezes stuff out through the seals. So unless the seals degrade the battery will not leak.

Those old small cells in vintage computers have been waiting for decades before they leak. I think either the seals degrade or the metal casing corrodes, and eventually they spill their guts. An AA lithium might do that if you left it for 20-30 years, but they are likely to be disposed of long before then.
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Offline TechieTX

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2018, 09:39:59 am »
I haven't seen leaking CR2032 batteries on the mainboards we repair, but none of 'em are over 5 years old: not long enough for the batteries to turn to goo.

CR coin cells are lithium and manganese dioxide with an organic electrolyte (there are several different electrolytes that I'd found).  The 1.5V and 9V primary Lithium batteries generally use Lithium & iron disulfide with an electrolyte made from lithium salt & and organic solvent, which varies a bit between manufacturers.  You can find the specific electrolyte by looking at the SDS/MSDS for the battery, at least for US manufacturers.

Stuff I plan to keep gets the batteries replaced every 5 or 6 years, regardless of whether they're still good or not.  It's no fun to have your emergency light turn up dead because you forgot to replace the batteries.  Now that a lot of people are making primary lithiums the price has dropped way down from what I used to pay.  It's still a premium compared to Alkalines, but worth the cost to me.

Hmmm... I just looked at an Energizer app note for their 'Ultimate Lithium' batteries, and they say that the batteries won't leak in normal consumer use, which is nice weasel-words for "we'll replace the leaky battery but not your gear", so buyer beware.
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2018, 10:46:10 am »
Hmmm... I just looked at an Energizer app note for their 'Ultimate Lithium' batteries, and they say that the batteries won't leak in normal consumer use, which is nice weasel-words for "we'll replace the leaky battery but not your gear", so buyer beware.

Or an excuse to charge more for Energiser "Industrial" batteries?
 

Online helius

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Re: Let's talk about leaking batteries.
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2018, 11:17:06 am »
I don't think that the consumer repair-or-replace warranty applies to Industrial batteries (they say "not for consumer use", so presumably you takes your chances).
 


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