Author Topic: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???  (Read 25265 times)

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Offline Brumby

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #125 on: April 28, 2018, 02:21:37 am »
Did does nobody get it?
I was criticizing tables because you can't as easily calculate what's beyond those tables as someone who learned math differently.
Am I so unprecise?
You presume that by learning their tables people don't bother to learn anything past that ... which is absurd.

I learned my tables by wrote in primary school and use that stored information often.  It is efficient in day-to-day use.  You don't need to know why 6 x 9 = 54 - you just need to know that it does.  6 x 9 = 54 is one operation.  It is quick.   Aside from 9 + 9 + 9 + 9 + 9 + 9 being painful and slow, by having to go through 5 operations to get an answer the opportunity to make an error increases by a factor of 5.

But knowing that doesn't stop you from exploring numbers further.  Once you know your tables, seeing patterns becomes easier; understanding why 6 x  9 = 54 becomes trivial and finding alternative expressions to go from 6 x 9 to an answer of 54 is not that hard.  Do your 10 times table and tell me you don't see any patterns!

I think anyone who has not learned up to at least the 10x table is at a disadvantage - but with calculators so freely available these days, it doesn't have the same impact as it did many years ago.

Perhaps this is the argument - that because calculators are so ubiquitous, learning the tables isn't as necessary as it once was - but explaining how things work is still valid.

Can't say I agree completely.  If I had my way I'd say, by all means do the "how and why" - but let's get the tables down pat along the way.
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #126 on: April 28, 2018, 02:46:40 am »
I recently had a graphic demonstration.  While teaching a younger relation to play Cribbage.  A game which requires finding combinations of cards which add to fifteen.  This person understood the idea of addition perfectly and could use a calculator, but had not successfully memorized addition tables.  In gameplay the individual was reduced to counting pips on various card combinations to test the sum.  This is just a game, and is just addition, but it illustrates the penalty exacted by not having the tools internalized.  A number sense is just another name for a slightly different version of the same thing.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2018, 02:58:04 am »
Did does nobody get it?
I was criticizing tables because you can't as easily calculate what's beyond those tables as someone who learned math differently.
Am I so unprecise?

I guess it really comes down to the fact that not many agree with you.  It doesn't matter how a person learns to multiply, the times tables being one method of learning, what's important is that they learn to multiply.  I don't see how you can posit that numbers beyond the times tables present any kind of challenge.  For a decimal system, worst case, all we need is up through the 9's.  Everything else is carry and add.  The largest conceivable product is 9x9 which is 1 and carry the 8.

Over time, people will discover for themselves methods for doing the work faster.  Or they won't.  Some people just hate math.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2018, 03:04:56 am »
I recently had a graphic demonstration.  While teaching a younger relation to play Cribbage.  A game which requires finding combinations of cards which add to fifteen.  This person understood the idea of addition perfectly and could use a calculator, but had not successfully memorized addition tables.  In gameplay the individual was reduced to counting pips on various card combinations to test the sum.  This is just a game, and is just addition, but it illustrates the penalty exacted by not having the tools internalized.  A number sense is just another name for a slightly different version of the same thing.

Fifteen two and the rest won't do!

IMO, this is an example of someone who has never given much effort to doing arithmetic by hand - always using a calculator, even for simple addition.  As a result, they just don't become familiar with the association of 6's and 9's or 7's and 8's with the magic number 15.

You've summarised this eloquently:
...but it illustrates the penalty exacted by not having the tools internalized.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #129 on: April 28, 2018, 03:10:24 pm »
They actually teach them this in the format "number bonds" now at school at the age of 5 here because hammering that intuition in early while the brain is mushy is pretty important.

Quite impressed if I'm honest. My 14 year old is learning calculus already.

Reminds me of this bit of Star Trek:

 

Offline rstofer

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #130 on: April 28, 2018, 03:32:24 pm »
The real discussion should be on a) the inability to read a technical statement and b) the hatred of word problems.  The two are deeply related.

Maybe it's really an appreciation for word problems that works to filter STEM students.

You don't have to love them but you do have to solve them.  Life is a word problem!

 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #131 on: April 28, 2018, 03:55:47 pm »
The question was "Why are time tables no longer important" or "not tought in school anymore" and brought up a point for that.
I could go asking you to cite studies to prove your point, while providing studies that prove my point. But I don't really care.

No, I get your point, I just don't see much mileage in any continued debate. I doubt there's much chance of you changing the minds of the "It was good enough for me" school of thought. When you have participants who bewail that children nowadays do not learn times tables in the way they were taught in maths classes, but eschew all that they were taught in English classes I suspect you're on a hiding to nothing.
He is right. I'm on a hiding to nothing. (I had to search that saying, but meh)
I am not responsible for your children. If you want to follow the tradition than that's it. I thought I could teach you about educational psychology, but I am not equipped for that.

Word problems are good, imo. (Do you see any "imo"s in my other statements, btw?)

Offline james_s

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #132 on: April 28, 2018, 11:50:09 pm »
The real discussion should be on a) the inability to read a technical statement and b) the hatred of word problems.  The two are deeply related.

Maybe it's really an appreciation for word problems that works to filter STEM students.

You don't have to love them but you do have to solve them.  Life is a word problem!

I always rather liked word problems, usually the actual math involved is a bit simpler and they almost always throw in some extraneous information. Half the problem is extracting the data from the sentences and I've always been good at that part.
 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #133 on: April 28, 2018, 11:57:48 pm »
I always rather liked word problems, usually the actual math involved is a bit simpler and they almost always throw in some extraneous information. Half the problem is extracting the data from the sentences and I've always been good at that part.
Learning how to actually use math in the real world is at least as important as learning the math itself.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #134 on: April 29, 2018, 12:26:36 am »
"If you have one bucket that holds 5 gallons and another bucket that holds 2 gallons, how many buckets do you have ?"   :palm:

Common core , socially caring infused version:
If you have 2 buckets that hold 4 gallons each, and your neighbour has 2 buckets that hold 3 gallons each how many buckets should you give to him so you both have the same number of buckets?



   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #135 on: April 29, 2018, 12:58:54 am »
I am not responsible for your children. If you want to follow the tradition than that's it. I thought I could teach you about educational psychology, but I am not equipped for that.

I'm of the totally unqualified opinion that all the psycho babble around education has lead to lower and lower results.  Everybody feels good about themselves even when they can't add.  A real unspoken problem around 'new math' and it's successors is the fact that parents can't help their kids with the homework.  This makes both the kids and the parents feel depressed and the kids think their parents are stupid.  It wasn't the way we were taught!  It's almost an elitist kind of thing; the teachers are smarter than everyone else.  That's why they make so much more money than a EE.  Oh, wait...

I remember having to do arithmetic on the blackboard in front of the other students.  It was get the right answer or be laughed at.  Nobody was worrying about MY feelings.

What I remember about junior highschool on Oct 5th 1957 (the day after Sputnik was launched) was a complete turnaround in teaching math and science.  It was learn by doing, get up here and show us!  I was in the 7th grade...
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 01:10:18 am by rstofer »
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #136 on: April 29, 2018, 06:56:19 am »
Don't blame the teachers for your inability to keep up with the children. Praise them

Also the teachers are only - kind of - following orders. If they differ too much from the schools or states educational plan, they can look for a different job. At least here in germany

Offline GlennSpriggTopic starter

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #137 on: April 29, 2018, 01:35:41 pm »
PHEW!!... I couldn't have believed it would get this far ??  (My original post...).
I 'THINK' that most people understand/understood what I was initially proposing?...

However....  "Distelzombie", I am left with no other recourse than to assume that...
"never the twain shall meet" (it's beyond this scope here x), so I bow out to 'you' :-)

That being said, I 'tried' to show respect to your comments/thoughts, but to no avail.
I think everyone else knows that when I mentioned "maths with single digits", I meant
just that my friend.... NOT 'knowing' off by heart what is  "13x17" or "23x49"... ???
The BASIC single-digit memorized 'results' are but the first, of REPEATED steps for the
next level???  But everyone else KNOWS that, and what I mean???

In the latter part of this post/comments, 'BRUMBY'  did say it all, with simple clarity and I thank him !!!!
However... 'someone else' said, in answer to 'Distelzombie'....
  "No, I get your point, I just don't see much mileage in any continued debate. I doubt there's much chance of you changing the minds of the
  "It was good enough for me" school of thought. When you have participants who bewail that children nowadays do not learn times tables in
  the way they were taught in maths classes, but eschew all that they were taught in English classes I suspect you're on a hiding to nothing."
simply 'smacks' of ill-informed aggression with the goal of 'belittling' me.... (He knows ) :-)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 02:35:41 pm by GlennSprigg »
Diagonal of 1x1 square = Root-2. Ok.
Diagonal of 1x1x1 cube = Root-3 !!!  Beautiful !!
 

Offline GerryBags

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #138 on: April 29, 2018, 01:51:35 pm »
I always rather liked word problems, usually the actual math involved is a bit simpler and they almost always throw in some extraneous information. Half the problem is extracting the data from the sentences and I've always been good at that part.
Learning how to actually use math in the real world is at least as important as learning the math itself.

that seems to be the only way I CAN learn any math(s), if it's purely abstract, or even too generally applied, I find it much harder to retain the interactions. I swear there is a numerical version of dyslexia and I have it. I can remember lines from books that I read thirty years and more ago, or song lyrics, but unless Toots & The Maytalls made a song about it (54-46, that's my number) I ain't remembering your phone number.
 
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Offline Distelzombie

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #139 on: April 29, 2018, 02:02:35 pm »
PHEW!!... I couldn't have believed it would get this far ??  (My original post...).
I 'THINK' that most people understand/understood what I was initially proposing?...

However....  "Distelzombie", I am left with no other recourse than to assume that...
"never the twain shall meet" (it's beyond this scope here x), so I bow out to 'you' :-)

That being said, I 'tried' to show respect to your comments/thoughts, but to no avail.
I think everyone else knows that when I mentioned "maths with single digits", I meant
just that my friend.... NOT 'knowing' off by heart what is  "13x17" or "23x49"... ???
The BASIC single-digit memorized 'results' are but the first, of REPEATED steps for the
next level???  But everyone else KNOWS that, and what I mean???

In the latter part of this post/comments, 'BRUMBY'  did say it all, with simple clarity and thank him !!!!
However... 'someone else' said, in answer to 'Distelzombie'....
  "No, I get your point, I just don't see much mileage in any continued debate. I doubt there's much chance of you changing the minds of the
  "It was good enough for me" school of thought. When you have participants who bewail that children nowadays do not learn times tables in
  the way they were taught in maths classes, but eschew all that they were taught in English classes I suspect you're on a hiding to nothing."
simply 'smacks' of ill-informed aggression with the goal of 'belittling' me.... (He knows ) :-)
I have no idea if you want to say that I misread what you wrote or something else. Clearly, I am incapable of understanding your written accent or slang. I also don't want to involve more than read-through into this anymore.
That "someone else" (Cerebus) is right with what he said. If you want to be heard, make sure you're speaking the same language. (That is quite hypocritical, but meh.)

Offline Cerebus

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #140 on: April 29, 2018, 02:34:46 pm »
  "No, I get your point, I just don't see much mileage in any continued debate. I doubt there's much chance of you changing the minds of the
  "It was good enough for me" school of thought. When you have participants who bewail that children nowadays do not learn times tables in
  the way they were taught in maths classes, but eschew all that they were taught in English classes I suspect you're on a hiding to nothing."
simply 'smacks' of ill-informed aggression with the goal of 'belittling' me.... (He knows ) :-)

You're supposed to be ignoring me, remember - looks like that 'last word' was just too tempting for you, even if you had to get it in sideways. As it is, I didn't have you specifically in mind, but if the caps fits, feel free to wear it. I must have become unnaturally important in your world to have already become a "he who must not be named", I'm honoured.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline GlennSpriggTopic starter

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #141 on: April 29, 2018, 03:06:19 pm »
Me..???   Moi ???  (To the ant eater)... I didn't mention your name??? YOU did !! :-)
You 'TOLD' me previously , NOT to 'speak' after your last Diatribe.....
However, YOU chose to ADD your verbal diarrhea SINCE then, which I simply quoted !!!
So I reacted to that..... (fuck you are pathetic mate...)  :) :) :)..........
Back to normality with everyone else.....  Just move on (or shut up, or eat ants whatever...)
Diagonal of 1x1 square = Root-2. Ok.
Diagonal of 1x1x1 cube = Root-3 !!!  Beautiful !!
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #142 on: April 29, 2018, 04:09:52 pm »
Me..???   Moi ???  (To the ant eater)... I didn't mention your name??? YOU did !! :-)
You 'TOLD' me previously , NOT to 'speak' after your last Diatribe.....
However, YOU chose to ADD your verbal diarrhea SINCE then, which I simply quoted !!!
So I reacted to that..... (fuck you are pathetic mate...)  :) :) :)..........
Back to normality with everyone else.....  Just move on (or shut up, or eat ants whatever...)

As to the claimed 'diatribe' (by the way, that is the proper usage of single quote marks) can you point to this 'diatribe', quote it? No, because it's all in your imagination. I have not commanded you not to speak, I have been nothing but reasonably civil to you, even in the face of provocation. I am still being reasonably so.

You are the one who has used phrases like "(fuck you are pathetic mate...)  :) :) :)" — and what kind of twisted mind thinks that piling smileys after cursing in someone's face is even sane?

May I advise you not to pick a battle of words, with anybody. It's not exactly your natural medium, is it?

I doubt many people know of Dave Sim's "Cerebus the Aardvark" comic (its circulation back in the day was so small that 'cult' is making it sound more popular than it was), especially a retiree from Aus. Heck, you can't even tell from Dave's and Gerhardt's drawings or my avatar that it is an aardvark unless someone tells you. So you must have gone out of your way to research the nickname, merely to give yourself what you hoped would be some ammunition to pelt me with, or make me quake in my boots at your awesome internet research skillz, after one short comment to one of your messages. That's mighty odd behaviour, obsessional even. Flattered though I am by the attention, I've got a girlfriend thanks and, bluntly, you're not impressive enough to be of interest. You are more like a mosquito, mildly distracting, but of no real consequence. Now, buzz off...


===*===


If anybody's going to the bar I'll have a pint of apricot brandy and a bag of chocolate coated ants. Thanks.  :popcorn:

For the avoidance of any doubt, lest anyone think I'm being too heavy handed with Ms. Spring, here is the 'diatribe' and the "You 'TOLD' me previously , NOT to 'speak' after your last Diatribe....." with which I earned his effervescent but ineffective opprobrium:

Well if you want a peaceful life, why make a post that dredges up some spat you've had elsewhere with Brumby in an unrelated topic? That does seem to be trolling for a response. 

Oh and please, less smilies, less brackets, less ... ellipses, less random punctuation in general and RANDOM changing into ALL CAPS in the middle of run on sentences. It makes it incredibly hard to read what you've written.

Dear 'Cerebus'.....  I was not aware that Mathematics was a favorite topic of 'Aardvarks', or why you read this far?
'HE' was mentioned, because he usually makes some Pious remarks when I post something, & here was no exception !
I have ZERO interest in 'your' thoughts beyond that, so please stick to 'licking ants' mate......

OH... and as for your...... "and please, less smilies, less brackets, less ... ellipses, less random punctuation " diatribe,
do you now feel like a 'bigger' 'man' in your personal attack, beyond your apparent need to lick 'someone's' butt (???).
Well, every 'punctuation' mark I use is for a reason, as raw text says/highlights/means nothing..........

Ignoring YOU (from now on), will be easy.....   Back to the REAL commenters that the rest of us love here.....

You've got troll written all over you mate, otherwise why would you turn a polite request to adopt a more readable writing style into a "personal attack" and spend so much time crafting such a personalised reply. Well, perhaps crafting is too  skilled a word for it, but it's clear the intent was to try and get some intemperate response out of me. As to ignoring me, good, but I bet you don't have the self control to let me have the last word.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #143 on: April 29, 2018, 11:28:11 pm »
"If you have one bucket that holds 5 gallons and another bucket that holds 2 gallons, how many buckets do you have ?"   :palm:

Common core , socially caring infused version:
If you have 2 buckets that hold 4 gallons each, and your neighbour has 2 buckets that hold 3 gallons each how many buckets should you give to him so you both have the same number of buckets?

That’s not the Common Core at all.

The whole point of the Common Core for math is to teach kids numeracy. That is, put simply, understanding numbers, the numerical analogue to literacy.

Part of numeracy is doing word problems, which require the learner to approach problems in various different ways. Sure, word problems are manufactured, but oftentimes you are faced with a math problem expressed as a word problem.

The other approaches to numeracy (the number bonds already mentioned, and the various strategies) are all intended to get the students to understand what they are doing. It’s more than just the rote memorization of times tables, and more than the algorithmic approach to multiplication. Approaching the problem from many angles is a good thing. I know a lot of parents are baffled when asked to help with math homework. “I don’t understand all of this new stuff!” is one common refrain. Another is, “the old style of math teaching was good enough for us!” to which I reply, “you hated math and barely passed, so clearly it was not good enough.”

My kid is in third grade, doing math at a 6th-grade level. A lot of it is because he enjoys math, and better, he enjoys helping his classmates with their math problems. And help he does, because he truly understands it.

 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #144 on: April 30, 2018, 03:15:24 am »
Quote
The whole point of the Common Core for math is to teach kids numeracy
Thank %DEITY%   for the 21st century geniouses that figured out math was being taught wrong for a few thousands of years.
Those of us still around 20-30 years from now can discuss how it worked out then :)



 



   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #145 on: April 30, 2018, 03:43:40 am »
  for the 21st century geniouses that figured out math was being taught wrong for a few thousands of years.

What makes you think math has been taught the same way for thousands of years?  Or for that matter, what makes you think it has ever been taught the same way across different cultures.?
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #146 on: April 30, 2018, 06:43:31 am »
  for the 21st century geniouses that figured out math was being taught wrong for a few thousands of years.

What makes you think math has been taught the same way for thousands of years?  Or for that matter, what makes you think it has ever been taught the same way across different cultures.?

Nothing!  That's the point. Throughout  history, somehow it was being done incorrectly. And now it's "fixed".



   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #147 on: April 30, 2018, 10:43:15 am »
  for the 21st century geniouses that figured out math was being taught wrong for a few thousands of years.

What makes you think math has been taught the same way for thousands of years?  Or for that matter, what makes you think it has ever been taught the same way across different cultures.?

Nothing!  That's the point. Throughout  history, somehow it was being done incorrectly. And now it's "fixed".

What makes you think that the current method does not draw from methods used successfully in the past or currently by other cultures.?
 
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Offline DimitriP

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #148 on: May 01, 2018, 12:04:51 am »
Quote
What makes you think that the current method does not draw from methods used successfully in the past or currently by other cultures.?

Incompetence.
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???
« Reply #149 on: May 01, 2018, 12:10:20 am »
Quote
What makes you think that the current method does not draw from methods used successfully in the past or currently by other cultures.?

Incompetence.

Oh, I think you're being a little harsh on yourself.  ;)
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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