The importance today, of "Times-Tables" ???

[madires]

I sometimes regret that I only learned the tables up to 10x10 (there are some times when knowing 13x12 would be useful without having to do long multiplication: measuring with yardsticks for instance). But there is a limited window for acquiring this skill and I am far beyond it.

I don't agree You can learn at any age, it just might take more time.

[BillB]

Hmmm.  I agree that the automation tools/simulators/calculators/etc have certainly reduced the need for a strong working knowledge of higher math for a lot of EE work these days.

Regarding memory, at this point, I'm just happy when I remember to put on pants before I leave the house in the morning.

[IanB]

As one currently suffering through the last 2 months of high school before hopefully going on to learn electrical and electronic engineering, how important is binomial, differential calculus and other hard maths things?

If you find those maths things hard, then you will likely find much of the content of an engineering degree hard. Even if you don't specifically have to use those mathematical tools, your engineering studies will involve many other complex and abstract topics to wrap your head around.

The reason universities ask for good A level grades from students applying for entry is to select for aptitude to get through the course material. So treat your A level studies like training to run a marathon. What you are studying is improving your mental fitness to get through your university course.

[CatalinaWOW]

While all of the tools make the job easier, if you don't understand what went into them you are at their mercy.  I can't count the times that a simulation program has given a garbage answer.  In some cases the garbage would be obvious to anyone.  Not so in others.  In all cases fixing it so that it wasn't garbage required one of a few approaches.  Just trying stuff until the answer looks reasonable.  Or insight into why the garbage might have occurred and what to do about it.  Or passing the job off to someone more talented, maybe by asking a question on a forum.

You can all decide which approach you like better.

[james_s]

But Calculus is fun!   

That's the right approach to the problem (I also enjoy it). Don't see it as a chore or a wall. It's a puzzle from which you win understanding.

For some reason I always thought calculus sounded scary and hard, even just the name. Then I learned a bit of it by accident and realized it's actually not all that difficult and it's actually quite interesting and useful, I think some of the concepts should be taught earlier in regular highschool math.

[james_s]

I sometimes regret that I only learned the tables up to 10x10 (there are some times when knowing 13x12 would be useful without having to do long multiplication: measuring with yardsticks for instance). But there is a limited window for acquiring this skill and I am far beyond it.

I don't agree You can learn at any age, it just might take more time.

At some point that time can approach infinite depending on how much life one has left, however learning the multiplication tables is likely within the grasp of most. There are apps you can get now for your phone to do that. I actually re-learned mine up to 12x12 recently because I realized I'd forgotten a lot of them, I'd also forgotten how to do some fairly basic math so I picked that back up. It's the result of relying far too heavily on calculators for years, I'm now seeing the value of doing some of the math by hand to keep the brain sharp.

[free_electron]

Hey siri , how much is two times two.

[bitseeker]

Siri: The same as two plus two. Let me know if you need help with that.

[james_s]

My mom is a tutor and often complains that kids will get out a calculator to solve something like 14 + 9, or 3 * 8. That's the sort of stuff one ought to be able to do in their head faster than getting out the calculator.

[CatalinaWOW]

Hey siri , how much is two times two.

My experience with Siri is that the first response will be - "I can't find anything called two times two for sale, but here are listings for two by two.", followed by "You must be joking." and sooner or later you will get it to respond with four.  By then you could have gotten the response even on a calculator.

The best answer for why to learn the times table comes from an experience I had many years ago when teaching an engineering technology class.  For a variety of reasons many of the students had a lot of trouble with the class (AC Circuits, with impedance, phase calculations, and so on).  One student came for help during office hours.   His problem - he didn't know which buttons to push on the calculator to do the multiplications required.  He had forgotten that an X was an abbreviation for times, similar problems for +, - and the division symbol.  I mean why memorize that crap when there is a calculator to do all the arithmetic?   

When you think you can't dumb something down anymore, someone will come along and prove you wrong.

[bitseeker]

His problem - he didn't know which buttons to push on the calculator to do the multiplications required.  He had forgotten that an X was an abbreviation for times, similar problems for +, - and the division symbol.

Woah.

[EEVblog]

I'm pretty sure Sagan is learning his times tables, he's in year 2. I've seen the big chart hanging up in the classroom.

[EEVblog]

At some point that time can approach infinite depending on how much life one has left, however learning the multiplication tables is likely within the grasp of most. There are apps you can get now for your phone to do that. I actually re-learned mine up to 12x12 recently because I realized I'd forgotten a lot of them

I have to admit that I've caught myself occasionally not being sure of some times table stuff I used to know completely.

[mtdoc]

For some reason I always thought calculus sounded scary and hard, even just the name.

Just call it Mooculus - it sounds less scary.

Actually that link is an excellent online resiurce for learning calculus. Also good for older farts like me who want to wake up 35 year dormant calculus synapses...

[Cerebus]

Just call it Mooculus - it sounds less scary.

If you want it to sound less scary, just translate it from its original Latin: pebble. (Calculus was named back in the days when the lingua franca of academics was Latin.)

[BradC]

Calculus was named back in the days when the lingua franca of academics was Latin.

I still get weirded out when my Dentist talks about it in the context of nasty stuff on teeth. I'm ok with the mathematical kind, but insinuating lackadaisical dental hygiene is a bridge too far.

[bitseeker]

Calculus, dental, and bridge all in the same post. Impressive.

[Cerebus]

If he'd mentioned renal calculii at the same time we'd have thought he was taking the piss.

[helius]

Of course if you you're really nuts, you could memorize your times tables in brass...

[VK3DRB]

I find many Australian electronics engineers do not know their times table. What I don't understand is how they can even get into their uni course not knowing their times tables. Worse still is their spelling. If it were not for spell checkers, these engineers would be hopelessly lost. The fault is not theirs. It is our education systems that allows students to automatically move into the next grade irrespective of how dim they are.

From my observations (having lived in the USA), American engineers are generally much better at grammar than Australian engineers.

[NiHaoMike]

I find many Australian electronics engineers do not know their times table. What I don't understand is how they can even get into their uni course not knowing their times tables. Worse still is their spelling. If it were not for spell checkers, these engineers would be hopelessly lost. ...
From my observations (having lived in the USA), American engineers are generally much better at grammar than Australian engineers.

I see that a lot online. (To be fair, some of them are not fluent in English and have a legitimate excuse.) On a particular mobile device forum back in the day, there was a member who never seems to use the shift key or spell checker and has not improved at all in 3 years or so, earning him a complaint thread from unhappy members. One girl replied that if he wants a good job or smart girl later in life, his bad writing would make it a lot harder.

[GlennSprigg]

Thank you to ALL who contributed here, and for many reasons. (Too many to mention).
I also thank 'EEVBlog' for bringing up a good point.....  (As well as 'Sagan's level in his year).
That being that 'US' adults think we remember the 'basics', but how quickly we forget without 'Revision' xx
No-one is 'supposed' to instantly know what 36 x 46 is, without WORKING IT OUT, (without aid xx).
Again... the 1st step is obviously '6 x 6', for which there is no 'help' but KNOWLEDGE, unless counting 'beans'.
MOST adults "know", that 6 x 6 = 36. And 8 x 8 = 64. And 7 x 5 =35......, but this is not regimented now.
MANY kids, in what ever year, DO understand this, because SOMEONE drummed it in to them, and that's good.
However, it is by far lacking today, in general basic education. Please push this with kids/grandkids   

[mtdoc]

However, it is by far lacking today, in general basic education.

Absolutely not true!

In fact, in the US, knowing the multiplication tables by the end of third grade (ages 8-9) is part of the Common Core Standard which states: “By the end of Grade 3, know from memory all products of two one-digit numbers.” 

My boys, who are now 9 and 12, both learned their multiplication tables through 12x12 in the 3rd grade.

[IanB]

No-one is 'supposed' to instantly know what 36 x 46 is, without WORKING IT OUT, (without aid xx).
Again... the 1st step is obviously '6 x 6', for which there is no 'help' but KNOWLEDGE, unless

I see your point, but '6 x 6' is not obviously the first step, especially if doing mental arithmetic. In fact, trying to do long form multiplication in your head this way is likely to lead to too many partial sums to keep track of, and it gets very difficult.

A more productive first step is 40 x 36 = 1440, and then 6 x 36 = 216, and then add them to give 1656.

I believe the modern curriculum tries to show children more ways to look at and understand multiplication rather than just learning by rote the primitive way of doing it on paper, and this has the positive effect of building stronger mental tools for thinking about arithmetic. This actually would make the way I showed above more accessible to the modern child than to the child of yesteryear.

[helius]

I see your point, but '6 x 6' is not obviously the first step, especially if doing mental arithmetic. In fact, trying to do long form multiplication in your head this way is likely to lead to too many partial sums to keep track of, and it gets very difficult.

A more productive first step is 40 x 36 = 1440, and then 6 x 36 = 216, and then add them to give 1656.

Code: [Select]

   36
x  46
------
   3
  186
  2
+124
------
  216
+1440
------
 1656
Isn't what you did exactly "long form multiplication"?