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Author Topic: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.  (Read 3690 times)

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Online blueskull

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2017, 08:03:18 AM »
http://mashable.com/2017/07/14/australian-government-encrypted-apps.amp

"Well, the laws of Australia prevail in Australia, I can assure you of that. The laws of mathematics are very commendable but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia," he said.

 :palm:
Well, he can't be totally wrong. He could always pass a law mandating 1+1=3, everybody would comply, what the problem?  >:D

I think you guys are misinterpreting his words. I don't think he's stupid enough to say math doesn't work in his country. Instead, he meant to use laws to moderate people's behavior (in this case, using math to circumvent government's evidence collection).
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Offline Hero999

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2017, 08:11:03 AM »
According to Edward Snowden the WTO treaty on telecommunications requires equal back doors be given to other WTO members if one has one. So all of this may be an elaborate scheme to create the false impression to some wto members that back doors dont exist so they countries that have the back door keys  dont get forced to give up their back door key advantage to every other country thats in power simply because they are in power and are in the WTO. Because trade treaties are completely amoral and care not one whit about "right" or "wrong" - there is no right or wrong, or legitimate versus illegitimate government, right is the entity that gets to make the local domestic regulations that the WTO gets to discipline, period..

In other words, government is just whoever is in power, because they are in power, period, and everybody else doesnt exist.

You can see why corporations have successfully shifted the whole world away from democracy, its because people would vote differently than what they want, and it would cost them money, so they have defined "right" as things that make them more money and "illegal" as things that make them less.

period.

Did you guys and gals follow that?  While you were sleeping, the ownership of our planet has been taken.

Australia's declaration is a symptom of a deeper problem, the total capture of the planet's countries and futures by a corporate superstate.

Just try to elect somebody who disagrees with their agenda, even symbolically.


Another problem with backdoors is the criminals can exploit them to steal secrets from the government and commit other crimes such as fraud.

Depending on laws, but I remember some countries doesn't allow HTTPS or whatever kind of encryption. Some countries requires their citizen to provide the key to decrypt anything the government is interested with a warranty, while in some countries encrypted communication is outlawed.
For most of the times, most people don't give it a shit though, but with a warranty and threat to imprisonment, I see no reason this can't be enforced.
For instance, unauthorized use of encryption in China is illegal, which means technically the use of FireFox or Chrome are illegal. Only IE, Edge and Safari are approved by Chinese government, but apparently nobody gives it a shit. This also applies for other encryptions such as EFS, which Microsoft has its products approved, but the use of encrypted Linux OS is illegal, though the same systems are widely deployed by Chinese government and its affiliates by a lot. But to be exact, if the Chinese government wants to get someone in trouble, the use of FireFox along will suffice.
That kind of shit is common with authoritarian governments: make lots of things illegal with tough punishments but don't enforce it, so everyone is routinely breaking the law. Now if they want to get rid of someone, for whatever reason, they have an excuse to because they've broken some obscure law.

 
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Offline cdev

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2017, 08:52:55 AM »
To corporations, everything, ESPECIALLY major disasters for human beings, are a PROFIT OPPORTUNITY.

Thats the magic of the marketplace. There is no right to anything.

Game over.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2017, 10:08:11 PM »
That kind of shit is common with authoritarian governments: make lots of things illegal with tough punishments but don't enforce it, so everyone is routinely breaking the law. Now if they want to get rid of someone, for whatever reason, they have an excuse to because they've broken some obscure law.

And that includes governments that one would not automatically think of as "authoritarian governments", such as the UK. There's a case making its way through the system at the moment based on "possessing information useful to a terrorist organization" under section 58 of the Terrorism Act 2000 and it's clear from the way the law was drafted that it was intended to be one of those kind of laws.

Section 58 of the Terrorism Act 2000 creates the offence, liable to a prison term of up to ten years, to collect or possess "information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism".

If you're a journalist who has a list of MPs addresses (a quite reasonable and legitimate thing to possess) you have "information of a kind likely to be useful ... terrorism", or a student with a chemistry textbook that includes information that could be used to make explosives you have "information of a kind likely to be useful ... terrorism", and so on.

There is nothing in the law itself that requires intent, mere possession of "information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism" is sufficient. The government can choose, on a quite arbitrary basis, who will and who will not be prosecuted for this offence. Most people possess some information that could conceivably be used by a terrorists, such as a map, and could quite legally be arrested and swept off the street at any time.

If you ask awkward questions about the existence of laws like this you're likely to get a reply like "Well of course we wouldn't use it like that", but the very existence of a law that could be lawfully used like that is a direct insult to the idea of democracy. Parliament failed on this one to ask the question that should always be asked about laws like this - "What could this law do if put into the hands of my worst enemies?".
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2017, 10:14:48 PM »

I think you guys are misinterpreting his words. I don't think he's stupid enough to say math doesn't work in his country. Instead, he meant to use laws to moderate people's behavior (in this case, using math to circumvent government's evidence collection).

Check out some of the other things he's said and done and I think you'll come to the conclusion that he could very well be stupid enough to mean what he said.

We, in the English speaking world, seem to have recently acquired some of the worst and dumbest political leaders that we have ever had.

It's come to something when an Englishman gets to look at the French with envy for the intelligence and integrity of their president.  :)
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Offline cdev

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2017, 11:49:40 PM »
He's saying (to corporations and investors) that they don't have to worry about anything factual, as he's got their backs and will never let scientific facts stand to determine how they are treated in Australia. (Just the law, which they have deals to control, and wherever the law is silent, they are innocent.)

Even if they knowingly poison people, as long as they don't break any "standards" they'll be okay. This is important because all sorts of chemicals are varying kinds of dangerous (for example, endocrine disrupters, which are often used in plastics, flame retardants, etc, we come into contact with every day, or even put into our bodies, which cause dozens of diseases, including cancer, diabetes, sterility, and gasp: morbid obesity)  Which are building up in the environment.. with unknown effects for mankind in the future. (they could threaten human reproduction)

Dangerous substances are knowingly being used in products people use everyday because they make something more profitable.  The march of progress had to be stopped because business is clearly being irresponsible, the cost of diseases caused by these chemicals is astronomical (a significant portion of the world's GNP, its estimated).

Engineered nanomaterials are similar. They are a potential disaster for people's health, but so useful in products like "tyres" and athletic equipment and underwear that companies are rushing to use them even though many are clearly dangerous in some contexts.

He's affirming that its national governments role now is to absolve businesses of guilt, not control them.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 11:57:21 PM by cdev »
 

Offline MarkS

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2017, 12:43:29 AM »
You had your tinfoil hat custom made out of a solid block of CNCd aluminum, didn't you?
 

Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2017, 01:12:10 AM »
The European Union and the most European Country are against there own Population.
The situation turn into the orwils nightmare.
Made in Japan, destroyed in Sulz im Wienerwald.
 

Offline vodka

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2017, 01:16:05 AM »
The European Union and the most European Country are against there own Population.
The situation turn into the orwils nightmare.

With Franco we lived better  :rant:
 

Offline Hero999

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2017, 01:17:39 AM »
That kind of shit is common with authoritarian governments: make lots of things illegal with tough punishments but don't enforce it, so everyone is routinely breaking the law. Now if they want to get rid of someone, for whatever reason, they have an excuse to because they've broken some obscure law.

And that includes governments that one would not automatically think of as "authoritarian governments", such as the UK. There's a case making its way through the system at the moment based on "possessing information useful to a terrorist organization" under section 58 of the Terrorism Act 2000 and it's clear from the way the law was drafted that it was intended to be one of those kind of laws.

Section 58 of the Terrorism Act 2000 creates the offence, liable to a prison term of up to ten years, to collect or possess "information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism".

If you're a journalist who has a list of MPs addresses (a quite reasonable and legitimate thing to possess) you have "information of a kind likely to be useful ... terrorism", or a student with a chemistry textbook that includes information that could be used to make explosives you have "information of a kind likely to be useful ... terrorism", and so on.

There is nothing in the law itself that requires intent, mere possession of "information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism" is sufficient. The government can choose, on a quite arbitrary basis, who will and who will not be prosecuted for this offence. Most people possess some information that could conceivably be used by a terrorists, such as a map, and could quite legally be arrested and swept off the street at any time.

If you ask awkward questions about the existence of laws like this you're likely to get a reply like "Well of course we wouldn't use it like that", but the very existence of a law that could be lawfully used like that is a direct insult to the idea of democracy. Parliament failed on this one to ask the question that should always be asked about laws like this - "What could this law do if put into the hands of my worst enemies?".
I agree, those laws weren't intended to be used like that, but all that's needed is some bad people in the crown prosecution service and a dodgy judge. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2017, 01:30:40 AM »
Quote
With Franco we lived better  :rant:
I dont know every part of the History but what I know is Merkel was invited everyone in the World to come to Europe (  :rant: ) and German NGO Smuggle every Day Thousand and Thousand of African People into Europe.

Tell me in which European Country is the Unemployment Rate under 0%?  :-//
Sorry we cant support the Million People who got Bombed by the Germans, British and American Army.
The NATO Member cause everyday crimes against the Humanity. Does it Stop no...
The American also support ISIS with Weapons and Money. The Saudi Regime also support it with there Religion.  :palm:

So get back to the Tec Forum. Do you know what the DARPA currently make research in?!
Do you every read the news from Tec Company when the present there Solution? Like Cams with Build in Face recognition who send an ID to an Server System.
The new drones who are under development for better Human Tracking.  :--
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Offline cdev

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2017, 04:21:25 AM »
GnuPG is developed in Germany


Quote from: Bicurico on Yesterday at 02:34:04
Germany.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2017, 04:38:09 AM »
Corporations are not people and are a legal fiction so they occupy not physical space, so they needed countries to be located in. But now they are creating a new network of private international law which supersedes national laws in areas involving economic issues like goods and services. The rules that control everything of economic importance is being takjen out of the hands of voters because the logic goes, they would just vote for things that help them. Do you want healthcare that works, and saves lives, or do you want healthcare that makes lots of money for a very few and dumps people who aren't profitable or run out of money.

Since in the future fewer and fewer people will have jobs and many have less saved than they want. People probably made a faulty assumption they were living under a democracy which wouldn't have been changed in 1995 to not allow anything to be fixed, but in fact it was. It was rigged.

What should they have done? If they were better informed they would have demanded more of the profits that were made be plowed back into society, for example, in public education , health care and infrastructure, as well as living wages, so people could save more money, but that stands in the way of supply and demand and a predicted race to the bottom that the owners hope to reap big rewards from as wages fall as demand falls and supply grows.

So the people weren't told this was being done, anywhere, it seems, so they wouldn't speak up.

In fact here in the US, three out of the four Presidential candidates ran on platforms that were in many respects already banned by trade agreements. Two candidates entire platforms were all barred. So one could even say they were part of an elaborate cover up.

We start getting into a complex moral situation here, that anybody can see makes the situation quite evil. And illegitimate.

Who gave politicians a right to sign these agreements that gave away our rights to fix things, internationally?  They are basically agreements between the very wealthiest people to set aside democracy for good, now just as the world really needs it.

A system that undermines the core values of society and which virtually everybody agrees corruption and self dealing by the powerful is out of control.

Ironically, the solutions that save the most money are also the most hated by neoliberalism.

For example, public healthcare, which trade agreements block, saves money.
http://www.cfhi-fcass.ca/sf-docs/default-source/mythbusters/Myth_User_Fees_EN.pdf

Thats why they want to get rid of it, its too efficient, and it doesn't allow the jobs and soon, patients to be used as bargaining chips in what amounts to an international poker game.

Quote from: Lord of nothing on Today at 09:12:10
The European Union and the most European Country are against there own Population.
The situation turn into the orwils nightmare.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 04:43:57 AM by cdev »
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2017, 04:52:05 AM »
The European Union and the most European Country are against there own Population.
The situation turn into the orwils nightmare.

With Franco we lived better  :rant:

That amuses me, because Eric Blair, aka George Orwell, fought against Franco in the Spanish Civil War.
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Offline cdev

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2017, 06:10:14 AM »
The big change for the EU came in 2006 with the Services Directive (Services in the Internal Market Directive)

"in order to promote competition" 
However in areas such as healthcare adding more competition is less efficient, also all assumptions are off when you realize many lost jobs will never be replaced. So it really becomes a means of labor arbitrage, pushing wages down. Thats not a good thing because who will buy the products of industry.  In the neoliberals rush to shaft working people, ("everybody else is doing it") they are going to end up killing the goose that laid the golden egg, the middle class.

Globally.

Idiots!

 

Offline edy

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2017, 09:44:25 AM »
I remember when companies would restrict users from exporting encryption products or software to other countries that were "enemies" of the USA:

http://www.cisco.com/wwl/export/faq.html

Or limit the length of encryption keys. But if the software is available in open source (like PGP) or you have the ability to learn, understand and code your own encryption, you can make it however length key you want. So what is the point? Will the police show up at your door if you make this software? Didn't someone rule that software was like writing... and it is part of "free speech" protection?

I don't know all the legal rules to all of this, but you have people also hacking firmware in Quadcopters to free up the GPS limitations. Do you remember that you could build a model helicopter or even an airplane and make it do whatever you want? If you are going to be a bad guy, there are many ways to do it.

Part of living in a free society is that we take the benefit from our own freedom and balance it with the risk of someone else's freedom possibly harming us. Some things make sense to limit, but others just don't and won't have the effect you want them to have. For example, banning encryption.

It seems that if someone encrypts their machine with TrueCrypt or has PGP app on their phone, they will automatically be suspected of criminal activity. Meanwhile, you can easily hide everything anyways in plain sight using any number of steganographic methods. Embed it in some photos, a video file, music, etc... You have countless ways to hide bits inside any of these media. Unless people know the algorithm you used, it would be hard to detect and decipher.

My point is, criminals don't need to abide by the rules so they will be able to circumvent all of this anyways while the lay average law-abiding person is vulnerable to getting hacked.

Part of the reason these companies went to using encryption methods that are end-to-end (without them holding any keys or master backdoors) is because they did not want to be responsible for constantly handing over keys to governments. Also, it would make their system more bulletproof to potential hacks by 3rd party criminal organizations which could compromise their userbase and cause mass exodus in case of a breach. As a messaging service, why would I put my company at risk by having users leave me in droves when (not if) there is a compromise in my backdoor, or my server master database containing all the keys? That's just stupid for business.

At the end of the day, even if the government manages to ban strong encryption, put in back doors in everything, and spy on all electronic communications, I don't think it will make a difference to those who really are intent in harming us. Seems like most of it is reactionary anyways, just to find co-conspirators if the person was sloppy covering their tracks... which is probably the best argument for why police want to get their hands on it.
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Online blueskull

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2017, 09:51:12 AM »
Technically speaking US government requires US based companies or individuals to get approval before selling encryption enabled software. For open source software, approval is not needed, but you should report to USDOC to let them know.
SIGSEGV is inevitable if you try to talk more than you know. If I say gibberish, keep in mind that my license plate is SIGSEGV.
 

Offline vodka

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2017, 03:08:32 AM »
The European Union and the most European Country are against there own Population.
The situation turn into the orwils nightmare.

With Franco we lived better  :rant:

That amuses me, because Eric Blair, aka George Orwell, fought against Franco in the Spanish Civil War.


His famous books as "Animal Farms" and "1984" were savage criticims versus the  Stalin's communism, especially with his experience on  the Republic Spain band. Speacially with the "Jornadas de Mayo*" event  of 1937 , where the troops of the Spanish Republic(Stalinist) tried to assault the Anarchist and POUM(Troskist) headquarters on Barcelona. Eric Blair was freed nearly from terminating on a "checa".

And  why do you believe that the higher General of the Spanish Republic Vicente Rojo said this: "All Catalonia already desired to Franco"?

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Days
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2017, 03:37:14 AM »
 

Offline Lord of nothing

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2017, 04:22:00 AM »
1932 what better the unemployment rate was very low.  :popcorn:
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Offline vodka

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2017, 05:28:01 AM »

With Franco we lived better  :rant:



Franco bombed more Madrid and Barcelona during years,  see the response of the  population.

Madrid

https://youtu.be/w6o5Sdeh_3E?t=5m35s

Barcelona



 

Offline Len

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2017, 05:33:19 AM »
Replace "mathematics" in his statement with "gravity" or "physics". I get the clear understanding that he had no clue what he was talking about.

Don't forget, Australia has already re-legislated gravity to keep everyone from falling off the bottom of the Earth.  :D
 
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Online blueskull

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2017, 06:15:13 AM »
Don't forget, Australia has already re-legislated gravity to keep everyone from falling off the bottom of the Earth.  :D

Someone has to post this :-DD... Was waiting for a while.
SIGSEGV is inevitable if you try to talk more than you know. If I say gibberish, keep in mind that my license plate is SIGSEGV.
 

Online Naguissa

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2017, 03:36:49 AM »
The European Union and the most European Country are against there own Population.
The situation turn into the orwils nightmare.

With Franco we lived better  :rant:
Another spaniard here... XD

Enviado desde mi Jolla mediante Tapatalk


Offline X

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Re: The laws of mathematics can be overruled in Australia.
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2017, 04:11:28 PM »
Don't forget, Australia has already re-legislated gravity to keep everyone from falling off the bottom of the Earth.  :D
They even tried to repeal Murphy's Law but something went wrong.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 04:13:53 PM by X »
 


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