Author Topic: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.  (Read 4080 times)

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Online ajb

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2019, 05:55:36 am »
... A Cisco cert is a legitimately marketable qualification for the modern stagehand (although now there are several lines of networking infrastructure gear purpose-built for production usage, so standard enterprise networking gear is becoming less common).

Which of course really just means that connectors aside (Neutrik FibreConn & EtherConn are wonderful) they're largely terrible crap, luckily given the trivial data rates involved that's not a problem.

Getting pretty far off topic, but is that based on direct experience?  I've never personally used any of it, but as far as I know Luminex, Pathport, and ProPlex gear is all pretty well regarded within their application areas.  Some of the ProPlex stuff looks very much like an off-the-shelf managed switch stuffed into a 2RU case and patched out to EtherCON, although I don't know if it might be running custom software. 

Data rates on show networks are trivial when sending a handful of DMX universes and audio channels, but can get pretty serious when multiple control desks and network processors are required to run a distributed show file, or when you have multiple video streams.
 

Offline LapTop006

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2019, 03:26:55 pm »
... A Cisco cert is a legitimately marketable qualification for the modern stagehand (although now there are several lines of networking infrastructure gear purpose-built for production usage, so standard enterprise networking gear is becoming less common).

Which of course really just means that connectors aside (Neutrik FibreConn & EtherConn are wonderful) they're largely terrible crap, luckily given the trivial data rates involved that's not a problem.

Getting pretty far off topic, but is that based on direct experience?  I've never personally used any of it, but as far as I know Luminex, Pathport, and ProPlex gear is all pretty well regarded within their application areas.  Some of the ProPlex stuff looks very much like an off-the-shelf managed switch stuffed into a 2RU case and patched out to EtherCON, although I don't know if it might be running custom software. 

Data rates on show networks are trivial when sending a handful of DMX universes and audio channels, but can get pretty serious when multiple control desks and network processors are required to run a distributed show file, or when you have multiple video streams.

Video brings it up, and with minimal compressions does easily get into the tens of gigabits.

Context is I (until late last year) ran large scale networks at Google, where as well as the stuff we ran, I'd also see what was being installed for AV purposes.

They likely are all running the same chips (mostly from Broadcom), and probably even the same base SDK, so yes, they're unlikely to be too terrible, however they're almost certainly lacking in the telemetry department making it harder to debug when things do go wrong (and given many of these protocols use multicast, things *will* go wrong).
 
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Offline calexanian

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2019, 09:16:57 am »
Also don't forget high the X of L of the driver goes sky high as the frequency gets up high enough to matter reducing the drive impedance requirements, so that's working in your favor.
Charles Alexanian
Alex-Tronix Control Systems
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2019, 12:49:54 am »
OP, are you looking to achieve improved SQ by changing speaker wires? I'm only assuming this because you are questioning the skin effect.

If this is the case, granted it will be system dependent and how revealing your system is.

I can also attest to the fact, that Litz wire noticeably improved my system by changing the factory stranded 16 ga copper internal wire to 15.5 ga Cardas Litz wire. The difference was noticeable enough you couldn't listen to both speakers at the same time, with one upgraded and then other stock....the tonal change was enough that the synergy was way off...needless to say the Litz was the clear winner.

Now this was an internal re-wire, not amp to speakers. I wont turn this into a big cable debate since that's what your request was.

Litz wire takes more time to terminate using a solder pot, but it's very good wire for audio.
 

Online wraper

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2019, 03:35:33 am »
I can also attest to the fact, that Litz wire noticeably improved my system by changing the factory stranded 16 ga copper internal wire to 15.5 ga Cardas Litz wire. The difference was noticeable enough you couldn't listen to both speakers at the same time, with one upgraded and then other stock....the tonal change was enough that the synergy was way off...needless to say the Litz was the clear winner.
In call that bullshit. Unless you've done blind test, it could be just psychological perception. As of 'synergy' which sounds just like BS audiophools like to talk, very likely you miswired one of the speakers and it was working in opposite direction to another speaker.
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2019, 07:41:50 am »
I can also attest to the fact, that Litz wire noticeably improved my system by changing the factory stranded 16 ga copper internal wire to 15.5 ga Cardas Litz wire. The difference was noticeable enough you couldn't listen to both speakers at the same time, with one upgraded and then other stock....the tonal change was enough that the synergy was way off...needless to say the Litz was the clear winner.
In call that bullshit. Unless you've done blind test, it could be just psychological perception. As of 'synergy' which sounds just like BS audiophools like to talk, very likely you miswired one of the speakers and it was working in opposite direction to another speaker.

Speakers were wired perfectly.

When I say unlistenable, I'm referring to the fact they were different enough that you could obviously tell a difference.

There wasn't a wire disconnected and there wasn't any amount of faulty connection points. I have gone through the speakers quite a few times performing mild upgrades of mechanical components like using metal female threads instead of just the factory wood screws, replaced factory  binding posts, replaced the caps, resistors etc.

I've had these speakers for a few years, I do take note to any changes good or bad regarding source material, amps etc.

I'm fine with the fact that we can agree to disagree, but its not placebo effect. Calling BS is kinda harsh, I do like experimenting, I do like taking notes, sometimes changing a component doesn't change much if anything, but I'm not lying to you that's for sure.  :-+

One thing I did do, was take a video of the gear using a slightly decent microphone...but definitely not the best..lol, with my Sony camcorder. (Edited to add that the microphone was a Sony external stereo microphone) I took the video of the stock internal wiring and then once I changed to the Litz.

It's something I do if I make any big changes. The only difference was the wires, no camera change, no change in volume, everything was kept the same for the test.

Please understand that the mic I used at the time has been since upgraded, but for these two recordings, nothing was changed with the recording gear. it's not a clear representation of what it sounds like, obviously your ears hear different than a microphone..sounds much better in person. There's some slight hiss from the gain, some added sibilance, but the settings remained the same.

What I ask is that you listen with some good headphones, or on a good set of gear, listen to the whole song and get a good memory of the tone. Then listen to the second recording and you will "possibly" hear that it's smoother and easier to listen to....somewhat less edgy, more life-like tones.

Stock internal chassis wire.




Litz internal wire.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 08:47:20 am by adauphin »
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2019, 09:12:42 am »
the synergy was way off

I think that says it all right there.   :-DD
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2019, 09:24:53 am »
the synergy was way off

I think that says it all right there.   :-DD

Not sure what you're getting at. Two speakers with different tonal qualities definitely won't blend well.
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2019, 09:35:46 am »
I'm referring to your nebulous language.

If it's not a placebo, then perhaps you can back it up with some numbers.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 09:38:38 am by timelessbeing »
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2019, 09:42:15 am »
I'm referring to your nebulous language.

Ok...well, I suppose I could have described it slightly better.

I was basically referring to the whole is greater than the sum of the parts...in other words....synergy.  So both speakers together tend to disappear slightly, the vocals are portrayed in the center.

When I tested the new wire with the stock wire, that "synergy" was compromised..or the whole listening experience was comprised.

One speaker with a perceived higher sound quality didn't blend well with a speaker that was lesser in sound quality.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 09:45:16 am by adauphin »
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2019, 09:49:56 am »
higher sound quality
Still nebulous. Not a blind test so it doesn't exclude placebo effect.

Actually it doesn't even have to be placebo effect since you didn't isolate all the variables.

Do you at least have some spectral measurements?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 09:51:44 am by timelessbeing »
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2019, 10:00:29 am »
I'm referring to your nebulous language.

If it's not a placebo, then perhaps you can back it up with some numbers.

Did you listen to the video clips? It's not so much a numbers game. Are there numerical differences? Sure. How those numerical differences coincide with good or bad sound quality will rest in the opinion of the listener.

There will always be a cable debate. There will always be people who aren't open for the possibility of a  improvement. There will always be people who just simply don't believe in any possible differences.

I don't want to get into a cable debate, I've been into audio most of my life, and that surely doesn't make me an expert.

But I will say that for me, and to give some type of evidence  that a tonal change is contributed to a difference of wire and/or construction of wire, that there was a noticeable change (for the better) in sound quality from thin stranded copper to a high quality litz wire that has supposedly also has a smoother surface as well.

Was it the copper wire, or how the wire is constructed? That part I'm not trying to debate. Just basically backing up the fact that cables can make a difference, and other peoples opinions are welcome.

But others blatantly calling it BS to me is kinda calling other people out for not hearing any differences.


 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #62 on: February 02, 2019, 10:14:09 am »
The video clips don't prove anything.

Are there numerical differences? Sure.
Where?

But I will say that for me ... there was a noticeable change (for the better) in sound quality from thin stranded copper to a high quality litz wire
If it sounds better to YOU then that's fine. But don't make generalizations that "Litz wire is good for audio" for everyone. The rest of us will enjoy our music without the expensive unicorn wire.

to give some type of evidence  that a tonal change
That's not "evidence". That's just your subjective experience.

high quality litz wire that has supposedly also has a smoother surface as well.
oh man  :-DD


But others blatantly calling it BS to me is kinda calling other people out for not hearing any differences.
I truly believe that you heard a difference. That fact doesn't exclude that it's BS.
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #63 on: February 02, 2019, 10:21:43 am »
higher sound quality
Still nebulous. Not a blind test so it doesn't exclude placebo effect.

Actually it doesn't even have to be placebo effect since you didn't isolate all the variables.

Do you at least have some spectral measurements?

At this moment, the only difference in the two clips was the wire used.

 While it wasn't a complete blind test, once I finished one speaker I listened to it and I was quite surprised. I called my son into the room, had him sit next to me and I said "Hey I want you to listen to this speaker and then to the other speaker and I want you to tell me if you hear a difference"

 I played a mono track in the left speaker and the same mono track in the right speaker, he kind of smiled and pointed to the rewired speaker and said ..yeah that one sounds better.

 In general, if capacitors and resistors of the same value can sound different, why does it have to stop at a copper wire? Why do copper wires not make a difference?
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #64 on: February 02, 2019, 10:30:58 am »
he kind of smiled and pointed to the rewired speaker and said ..yeah that one sounds better.

Fantastic. A sample size of two. It isn't statistically more significant than random chance.

I'm just going to spitball here just to illustrate one of the hundreds of ways that your test is flawed: Did you place the speakers in the exact same location?


if capacitors and resistors of the same value can sound different
I would argue that you would have trouble distinguishing the difference, but nonetheless a capacitor has frequency dependent response curve. A piece of wire doesn't (at audio frequencies). I guess you ignored that part at the beginning of the thread.

Why do copper wires not make a difference?
To understand, you can start by reading the article on skin effect that was provided to you.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 10:33:18 am by timelessbeing »
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2019, 10:51:41 am »
 For the record, I'm keeping this a friendly debate.

We were obviously replying at the same time.

I truly believe that you heard a difference. That fact doesn't exclude that it's BS.

Then which part is BS?

 The fact that I didn't hear a difference, or that different types of copper wires between two points, including how they are constructed inside an outer covering, can have an audible difference in some cases?

 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2019, 10:55:29 am »
The latter.

Since you have no measurable proof, there is nothing to debate.
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2019, 11:07:05 am »
The latter.

Since you have no measurable proof, there is nothing to debate.

Are you reading my replies? The difference includes the construction of the wire. A numerical difference, perhaps viewed on a scope, may or may not result in improved SQ.

I can see if I can get you a FFT of two wires, whether or not that data coincides with improved sound quality is in the ears of the listener.
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2019, 11:19:36 am »
Believe it or not SQ can be measured and quantified. That's what figures like THD are for, and frequency response charts.

Listener's ears are connected to a that large mysterious blob we call a brain, and we don't fully understand how it generates reality.

Graphing the FFT would be a good start.
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2019, 02:13:37 pm »
Believe it or not SQ can be measured and quantified. That's what figures like THD are for, and frequency response charts.

Indeed, I'm aware of that.

Hypothetically speaking, if a signal through lampcord showed higher THD than a Litz wire, wouldn't that still be BS?   ;D
Graphing the FFT would be a good start.

I can surely give it a try.
 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2019, 02:50:47 pm »
Hypothetically speaking, if a signal through lampcord showed higher THD than a Litz wire, wouldn't that still be BS?   ;D
Would what be BS?

whether or not that data coincides with improved sound quality is in the ears of the listener.
I think you mean BETWEEN the ears of the listener.
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2019, 04:55:58 pm »
Believe it or not SQ can be measured and quantified. That's what figures like THD are for, and frequency response charts.

Indeed, I'm aware of that.

Hypothetically speaking, if a signal through lampcord showed higher THD than a Litz wire, wouldn't that still be BS?   ;D
Graphing the FFT would be a good start.

I can surely give it a try.

It could mean that the frequency response of the lamp cord was better, showing up more THD in the source.
Back in the day, when early enthusiasts were trying to promote wide bandwidth "HI FI" audio, they met resistance from people who "liked the sound" of equipment with limited frequency response.

Investigation showed that wide band equipment made higher frequency harmonic distortion audible, whereas limited bandwidth equipment attenuated such distortion, making the sound "more pleasant".

The pioneers of HIFI "were smarter than the average bear", so, at considerable expense they set up a listening environment with a chamber orchestra playing live behind a screen.
They also designed an "acoustic filter" with a similar response to that of popular home "radio grams".

First the orchestra played without a filter, then it was added.
There were several iterations of this, but the end result is the audience always preferred the full bandwidth signal, when there was no distortion in either option.

In the days when I used to do tests upon AM Broadcast transmitters, we had one unit which was quite marginal in frequency response.
Notably, it always gave better THD figures for the higher frequency audio test frequencies than the better transmitters did.
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2019, 06:13:29 pm »
Here's one to set you all off. I was sitting in a store in September last year listening to music on a system. Someone interrupted things to swap the standard issue mains cord for some expensive audio foolery one, to see if he could hear a difference. I wouldn't have believed it but damn the difference was significant. Don't ask me to quantify it but it did sound more like real music.

Sent from my MI 8 using Tapatalk

 

Online timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2019, 06:26:48 pm »
I guess it fooled you.
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #74 on: February 03, 2019, 03:03:56 pm »
Someone interrupted things to swap the standard issue mains cord for some expensive audio foolery one, to see if he could hear a difference. I wouldn't have believed it but damn the difference was significant. Don't ask me to quantify it but it did sound more like real music.

It's when you hear it on a revealing system its definitely an attention getter.

When I started upgrading the power cords, I didnt hear too much with one component. But for a trial about a year ago, I replaced 3 of my upgraded cords with the stock cords and taking all of them back to stock is when the music went to being less dynamic and slightly tinny.

It's not the length of romex before the outlet, it's more that the power cord is the first 3 to 6 feet from the component..
 


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