Unnecessary Complexity

[IDEngineer]

The geniuses who approved this and SATA connectors without positive retention should be fed to a sarlacc to be digested together over a 1000 years.

I always thought that was a particularly hideous bit of creativity. I remember seeing that for the first time in the theater - it stayed with me!

A shorter version was the Alien chestburster. There were a couple of people who got "implanted" after the humans had learned how the organism gestated. One scene in Aliens has a guy glued to a wall, awake, fully knowing and feeling what was happening inside him yet powerless to stop it, or even commit suicide (until he got some outside help). Brutal.

And I agree that is a suitable punishment for egregiously bad design decisions. As I often say, "No one is completely worthless. You can always serve as a bad example." To which we might now add, "...in the stomach of a sarlacc".

[David Hess]

Those side terminals have been standard for decades on gm vehicles, they rarely have issues but you can easily replace them with an aftermakret top post.

Yes, but I did not realize the significance before inheriting my first and last GMC vehicle.  Oh, and how did GMC find a plastic which shatters in weather only cold enough for snow?  Maybe it never snows where GMC is.

They are not so easy to replace when the cables are too short to reach the top of the battery and must be spliced.

[eugenenine]

Those side terminals have been standard for decades on gm vehicles, they rarely have issues but you can easily replace them with an aftermakret top post.

Yes, but I did not realize the significance before inheriting my first and last GMC vehicle.  Oh, and how did GMC find a plastic which shatters in weather only cold enough for snow?  Maybe it never snows where GMC is.

They are not so easy to replace when the cables are too short to reach the top of the battery and must be spliced.

Huh?  You just buy the little side to top adapters.

[SilverSolder]

Gasoline doesn't "know" that it's in a carbed vs. injected engine.

What might be happening is that gasoline is constantly evaporating out of the carb, leaving thick goo behind.  Another possibility is that the air reacts with the fuel somehow.  When totally enclosed in an air tight system, it might take longer to "go bad".  We'll have to run a controlled experiment at some point!

[tooki]

Curious, I downloaded the PDF manual (the one called Owner’s Manual; the Owner’s Guide is just a quick start guide), and on page 130 it describes and depicts using the key to unlock the door when either the “remote battery or vehicle battery is dead”.

Must be a different year or model. Here's page 130 from my manual. Also, the "bigger" manual is now called the "Owner's Guide" (~180 pages) which is separate from the much shorter intro manual. Maybe they flip the names on odd/even years. 

I did find information about starting the engine "when the battery in the remote transmitter is weak". But dead? Damaged? Dropped in water? I still have found nothing.

Nope, I literally was looking at this info when I wrote my comment. See https://owners.honda.com/vehicles/information/2018/Pilot/manuals

It says “The Owner's Guide provides a quick how-to on basic functions and features” and “The Owner's Manual explains the various features and functions of your Honda, offers operation tips and suggestions for vehicle care and maintenance, provides specific details on safety systems, and includes comprehensive technical specifications.”

The owner’s manual is a 695 page PDF. The scanned page you showed is from the ~180 page owner’s guide, the shorter of the two and expressly not the one I said to look in. If you look at p.130 of the manual you will find the info.

[james_s]

Gasoline doesn't "know" that it's in a carbed vs. injected engine.

What might be happening is that gasoline is constantly evaporating out of the carb, leaving thick goo behind.  Another possibility is that the air reacts with the fuel somehow.  When totally enclosed in an air tight system, it might take longer to "go bad".  We'll have to run a controlled experiment at some point!

I suspect both play a part. I have cleaned out a lot of small engine carburetors but I've had very few instances of gummed up fuel injection components. Typically the fuel rail and lines remain pressurized when the engine is at rest, the system is airtight so the more volatile components of the gasoline don't evaporate out. The high pressure in the fuel rail is likely also able to blast out any gunk that does accumulate in the injector nozzles while a carburetor relies on atmospheric pressure so it doesn't take much to gum up the system.

Someone else mentioned K-Jetronic, one of my Volvos originally had that. It was a very impressive system in its day and generally quite reliable. Unfortunately as of about 10 years ago parts had become very hard to find, the control pressure regulators fail and a rebuilt one would have cost around $500 so I replaced the whole setup with a more modern EFI system.

[CatalinaWOW]

Those side terminals have been standard for decades on gm vehicles, they rarely have issues but you can easily replace them with an aftermakret top post.

I have never decided whether I dislike the top terminals or side terminals more.  The clamps on top terminals frequently corrode the posts or have their tightening bolts corrode until they are nearly impossible to remove.  I have had frequent problems with the side terminals coming loose.  If you try to apply enough torque to keep them from loosening they strip the threads in the battery. 

After nearly one hundred years of using these batteries you would think that something really robust, and easy to use would be developed.  I guess if I did what the makers want and buy a vehicle every 3-5 years I wouldn't have these problems, but my average retention for vehicles is measured in decades.

[james_s]

I haven't really had much trouble with the top post terminals. The only issue I recall is having the clamping bolts rust out and break, I replace them with stainless which holds up better. I also squirt a little anti-corrosion grease on them any time I mess with the battery.

[SilverSolder]

I have cleaned out a lot of small engine carburetors but I've had very few instances of gummed up fuel injection components.

Of course, we can't get away from the interaction with air at the tip of the injectors - where gummy deposits can and do interfere with the spray patterns, which are important for proper atomization / vaporisation.   Many rough running fuel injected engines run noticeably smoother after a sip of injector cleaner clears its nostrils.

On the carb front, I have found that fuel stabilizer really works well too.  I use the marine grade stuff, pre-mix it in a 5 gallon can and always use it all year round.  Haven't had to clean out a carb for about 5 years now (knock on wood!).

To remain on topic about unnecessary complexity,  I guess adding chemicals to the fuel is an example of increasing complexity in exchange for a defined benefit!

[T3sl4co1l]

When you're shipping millions of gallons of the stuff annually, for decades upon decades, you figure out a few neat tricks.  Fuel is very tightly formulated, from the obvious octane rating, to oxygen content, to lubricators and antioxidants.  Not so tightly that it's expensive, mind -- to a certain extent, it's to make do with a cheaper feedstock.  It's an industrial scale compromise, and the result is an incredibly consistent, competitively priced* product across time and space.  You can drive your vehicle to any country on Earth (within reach) and put the same grade of fuel in it without problems.  That's amazing.  It's a highly complex system, and necessarily so.

*Not withstanding local/state/fed sales taxes on the product, which are very common the world around, to greater or lesser degree depending.

Tim

[IDEngineer]

The owner’s manual is a 695 page PDF. The scanned page you showed is from the ~180 page owner’s guide, the shorter of the two and expressly not the one I said to look in. If you look at p.130 of the manual you will find the info.

So the LARGER of the manuals they included with the car isn't even the actual owner's manual?!? Un-freaking-believable.

Shame on me for presuming that a new buyer gets a printed copy of the actual owner's manual. Service manuals aren't for everyone, sure, but owner's manuals? Wow. Just wow.

Seriously, thanks for pointing this out. It would not have occurred to me that A) they wouldn't have included the owner's manual, and B) that a 180+ page perfect-bound BOOK in the bundle of documentation they DID bother to provide wasn't, in fact, the owner's manual.

[IDEngineer]

You can drive your vehicle to any country on Earth (within reach) and put the same grade of fuel in it without problems.  That's amazing.

Note that's even better than mains voltage/frequency, which I would argue is easier to "control" than the complex chemical process necessary to create gasoline or diesel fuel. With the advent of SMPS's you have a better shot at a "universal" power supply, but that's just the consumer accommodating the source - nowhere near the standardization that you point out regarding fuels.

[eugenenine]

Of course, we can't get away from the interaction with air at the tip of the injectors - where gummy deposits can and do interfere with the spray patterns, which are important for proper atomization / vaporisation.   Many rough running fuel injected engines run noticeably smoother after a sip of injector cleaner clears its nostrils.

No a days everything is direct injected into the combustion chamber so if anything were to gum up it would quickly get burnt off.  Back when the injectors were in the air intake or throttle body they could get a little gummy/dirty.

[james_s]

I would bet that a majority of the cars on the road today still have the "old fashioned" port injection with the injectors mounted to the intake manifold. I've seen GDI engines but I've never had or worked on a car that had one.

Now certainly allowing fuel to go stale is not a good idea, and fuel stabilizer is probably a good idea for rarely used engines (does it have any downsides other than cost?) but injected engines are certainly more tolerant of stale fuel.

[SilverSolder]

Now certainly allowing fuel to go stale is not a good idea, and fuel stabilizer is probably a good idea for rarely used engines (does it have any downsides other than cost?) but injected engines are certainly more tolerant of stale fuel.

The main downside is probably breathing whatever the chemical is...  small engines often don't have catalytic converters so you end up standing in a cloud of unmitigated exhaust fumes when the engine is running...

[IanMacdonald]

Now certainly allowing fuel to go stale is not a good idea, and fuel stabilizer is probably a good idea for rarely used engines (does it have any downsides other than cost?) but injected engines are certainly more tolerant of stale fuel.

The main downside is probably breathing whatever the chemical is...  small engines often don't have catalytic converters so you end up standing in a cloud of unmitigated exhaust fumes when the engine is running...

Carbon monoxide is likely to be more of a health concern, and is more of a problem with carburettors because they have a tendency to run rich.

[tooki]

The owner’s manual is a 695 page PDF. The scanned page you showed is from the ~180 page owner’s guide, the shorter of the two and expressly not the one I said to look in. If you look at p.130 of the manual you will find the info.

So the LARGER of the manuals they included with the car isn't even the actual owner's manual?!? Un-freaking-believable.

Shame on me for presuming that a new buyer gets a printed copy of the actual owner's manual. Service manuals aren't for everyone, sure, but owner's manuals? Wow. Just wow.

Seriously, thanks for pointing this out. It would not have occurred to me that A) they wouldn't have included the owner's manual, and B) that a 180+ page perfect-bound BOOK in the bundle of documentation they DID bother to provide wasn't, in fact, the owner's manual.

Hey, at least they bothered to write a full manual at all. With so many products, they've simply stopped creating them to begin with. Remember when software came with 3-ring binders with hundreds of pages of detailed documentation?

As someone who has worked as a professional technical writer, writing a full manual, quick start guide, FAQ, etc., as well as doing technical support, it's a sad truth that almost nobody actually reads the manuals. If you're really lucky, a user will do a keyword search in the manual or read the relevant section, but mostly people just ignore them and call instead…


Out of curiosity, were you able to try key entry into the car?