The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.

[timelessbeing]

I have a bridge to sell you.

[ajb]

Did you listen to the video clips?

Okay, so. . . you're asking us to listen to a pair of recordings you made, with an unspecified microphone and recording system, which you processed into an unspecified format, and then uploaded it to youtube, where it was compressed into some sort of (lossy?) format, and then played back on our systems, most of which, statistically, are going to be the cheapest internal audio DACs the PC motherboard designers could come up with, feeding whatever speakers or headphones we have--statistically, again, not likely to be anything "audiophile" grade. . .

. . . and you want to know if we heard a difference caused by a slightly fancier arrangement of copper strands in a couple of feet of your speaker wiring.

[Gary.M]

I guess it fooled you.

Hahahaha. You are a funny person.

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[Gary.M]

I have a bridge to sell you.

You are a great contributor. Trolls always add value.

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[timelessbeing]

Awww... not funny anymore? I must have hit a sore spot.

Yes, I'm a troll for trying to keep people from pissing away their money. 

Fine don't listen to logic and reason. Fill your boots with magical power cables.

[BravoV]

Just a gentle warning, certain "type" of audio people just don't fit in here at this forum. There is a big mobs that I guess is patiently waiting to jump in here aiding timelessbeing, just search for word "audiophile" in this forum and watch the mobs reactions  , yes, I'm part of the mobs.

[timelessbeing]

No thanks.    I'm not interested in "aid", mobs or drama. Things are pretty civil so far (except the name calling). There has been a little bit of productive discussion, and maybe even a tiny bit of open mindedness. Escalation will only take things backwards.

Declaring people as a "type" is pretty insulting. The super-subtle "we don't take kindly to your folk around here" talk sounds like it's taken straight out of a scene of "Deliverance". Intimidation is a sad resort for people who have nothing intelligent to say. 

Poking fun on the other hand is totally fair game. In good humour of course. (and ideally tasteful and funny).

This is a science-centric forum so hopefully everybody comes expecting grown-up academic discussion. I think it's a big shame every time an opportunity for somebody to learn something is missed.

[wraper]

Here's one to set you all off. I was sitting in a store in September last year listening to music on a system. Someone interrupted things to swap the standard issue mains cord for some expensive audio foolery one, to see if he could hear a difference. I wouldn't have believed it but damn the difference was significant. Don't ask me to quantify it but it did sound more like real music.

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Adding a bit of volume will make it sound 'better', that's how those tricks are often done. Human echoic memory is only 3-4 seconds. What happens after that is hard to compare if difference is small because you simply don't really remember what was before.

[adauphin]

I agree it's pretty civil, but what gets me is the fact there are people that state the fact upgrading cables is BS, or it makes no difference, or people claiming to have the "golden ear"

Should it be fact that there is no discernable difference in quality? Who gets to make that claim?

The OP asked about skin effect and also asked about the best given a mutual price point.

I'm adding that if the OP wanted to go with Litz...for whatever reason, there is some testament, at least from me, that in my certain application, there was an improvement.

Whether that's small or large, it opens the door for criticism. I'm not someone that claims that all the higher gear is better, just claiming that I have used Litz in an audio application and it benefited my system.

Litz wire I used was less than $2 per foot, not terribly expensive.

Again, its system dependent.

[Gary.M]

Adding a bit of volume will make it sound 'better', that's how those tricks are often done. Human echoic memory is only 3-4 seconds. What happens after that is hard to compare if difference is small because you simply don't really remember what was before.

Yes, volume level will affect everything if it is changed. In the case I observed the only thing that was done was to switch off the amp, change the cord, and switch on again. The change in sound was not subtle and I have no explanation for it.

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[timelessbeing]

what gets me is the fact there are people that state the fact upgrading cables is BS, or it makes no difference

If those people back up their claim with evidence, what's wrong with calling something what it is?

It's no secret that there are people out there who knowingly sell false promises to people who don't know any better, in order to turn a profit. Surely you're not that naive.

Should it be fact that there is no discernable difference in quality?

Yes. We can measure sound and therefore be able to say that there is no difference.

Who gets to make that claim?

The theory stands up to the most scrutiny, and generates reproducible data that supports the theory is the correct one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

there is some testament, at least from me

Your testament was flawed. We already provided you with two examples of how.

Again, its system dependent.

If the phenomenon you describe only manifests itself in your living room, then what good is it to us?

[timelessbeing]

There is a thing called placebo effect. It's well studied and understood. The awareness of having the Litz wire makes you actually hear a difference. And I don't mean you imagine it. They can stick you in an MRI machine and measure your brain signals, and it would show that you actually heard the music differently. 90% of "hearing" (vision too) happens in your brain, not your ears. An audiologist explained this to me once (and I have an interesting story about it if you want to hear it).

And there's nothing wrong with that. Since using that cable truly does make the music sound better to you, then you're kind of right. The only problem with that, is that it's not consistent since it only works for you. It might not work the same way for the next guy. The result cannot be guaranteed by the seller, and therein lies the fraud. He will do an excellent job of convincing you that the cable works. And in fact, at that point, he is already starting to shape your neural pathways so that you do hear that difference.

This is where the ethics get really grey. It's not really the object that is making the sound better. It is your perception of that object. And people will pay thousands of dollars for that perception. It's their money so I don't care, but the remarkable thing is that you can produce that same psychological effect with anything. You're better off buying a magic rock for $1. As long as I can convince you that placing that magical rock in the center of your living room will absorb harmonic energies in the inaudible spectrum, and re-radiate them in tune with your music, thereby adding "thereness" ... if I make you truly believe it, then it will actually sound better to you. For a lot less money. It's a lot easier to sell cable elevators and directional cables to people with a weak scientific background, because logic doesn't get into the way.

The really fascinating thing about placebos, is that even the person knows it's a placebo, it still works to some degree! Even if I tell you that a pain medication is a just a sugar pill, the pain in your knee will still go away! Unfortunately, it works in reverse too. The so called "nocebo". If I tell you that the sugar pill will cause nausea, it probably will. I foresee that in the future, we will use more psychogenics in medecine.

[timelessbeing]

This effect also seems relevant to the "golden ears"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
"The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability."

[Gary.M]

This effect also seems relevant to the "golden ears"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
"The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability."

Most of the consumers of audio equipment are avid music lovers, with large music collections, and spend a lot of their spare time listening to and enjoying music. They also tend to be regularly exposed to live music, which is "the Reference". Reproduction in the home is an attempt to recreate that live experience, and is always doomed. But these enthusiasts do know what real music sounds like, and any improvements that work for them, are valid within the context of their pastime. I've heard things other than the power cord that do seem to make a difference, but no one knows why. The whole field is dealing with an interface between technology and physiology, with a subjective experience as the end result. Very hard to pin down scientifically.

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[boB]

Where did you find that nice graph of ability to recognize their lack of ability ?

I don't appear to have the ability to find it although I have the ability to know that I don't have the ability...

[timelessbeing]

The whole field is dealing with an interface between technology and physiology ...

... and psychology.

[timelessbeing]

Where did you find that nice graph of ability to recognize their lack of ability ?

I don't appear to have the ability to find it although I have the ability to know that I don't have the ability...

Hehe. Don't take the graph too seriously. It was made to illustrate a concept. Obviously you can't quantify ability and perception. However, it is based on experiment survey results.

[timelessbeing]

these enthusiasts do know what real music sounds like, and any improvements that work for them, are valid within the context of their pastime.

Sure. If it doesn't hurt anybody, do whatever makes you happy

But consider this: The more you understand about how something works, the less valid and meaningful these perceived improvements become... the more immune you are to being bamboozled ... the more money you save... the more you are able to make informed decisions, and focus on things that make real measurable improvements. Then again, maybe to some people the perception is more important than reality.

I think ego plays a lot into audiophoolery. As you say, many people are really enthusiastic about music. It's a hobby that is easily accessible and doesn't require skills or education. They lack the technical understanding of physics, but they need to have that guru status. So their brain just starts coming up with things. They need to hear things that you don't, and perceive things that are "beyond science". We all crave recognition to some degree.

[Gary.M]

I think ego plays a lot into audiophoolery. As you say, many people are really enthusiastic about music. It's a hobby that is easily accessible and doesn't require skills or education. They lack the technical understanding of physics, but they need to have that guru status. So their brain just starts coming up with things. They need to hear things that you don't, and perceive things that are "beyond science". We all crave recognition to some degree.

There are a hell of a lot of assumptions in what you wrote. Do you know any of these people? I have some amongst my friends, and I've been exposed to others through my work. None of them are at all egotistical and none seek any sort of guru status. All they care about is enjoying the music. Craving recognition? They all have their own fields of work and career, and often are highly educated.

I'm starting to observe that you seem to be opining on an area outside of your experience, and that is fraught. Applying the field you do know, to one you don't. When you are amongst your own you can seem wise, if you found yourself amongst the people I refer to you would seem silly. I don't mean that as any sort of barb, its just that you have to be careful with assumptions and opinions that are outside your own experience.

In psychology they talk about unconscious incompetence. When you don't know that you don't know something. Caution is advised.

[vk6zgo]

Adding a bit of volume will make it sound 'better', that's how those tricks are often done. Human echoic memory is only 3-4 seconds. What happens after that is hard to compare if difference is small because you simply don't really remember what was before.

Yes, volume level will affect everything if it is changed. In the case I observed the only thing that was done was to switch off the amp, change the cord, and switch on again. The change in sound was not subtle and I have no explanation for it.

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Maybe the sound quality did improve, but not from the fancy power cord!

Sometimes, when the filter caps in a power supply are a bit marginal, turning the device off for a minute or so, then back on, will temporarily improve the output regulation of that supply.
(I had a "logical" explanation for this, but upon reflection, my explanation doesn't work if you just turn off the Mains in solid state equipment.)

In some cases, other components may have an intermittent problem which can be "temporarily" fixed by the removal  & restoration of power.

Obviously, the only way to prove this would be to go back & swap the power cord back.

This sort of thing does pop up at times, when you are fixing a lot of stuff.

[Gary.M]

Yes, volume level will affect everything if it is changed. In the case I observed the only thing that was done was to switch off the amp, change the cord, and switch on again. The change in sound was not subtle and I have no explanation for it.

Maybe the sound quality did improve, but not from the fancy power cord!

Sometimes, when the filter caps in a power supply are a bit marginal, turning the device off for a minute or so, then back on, will temporarily improve the output regulation of that supply.
(I had a "logical" explanation for this, but upon reflection, my explanation doesn't work if you just turn off the Mains in solid state equipment.)

In some cases, other components may have an intermittent problem which can be "temporarily" fixed by the removal  & restoration of power.

Obviously, the only way to prove this would be to go back & swap the power cord back.

This sort of thing does pop up at times, when you are fixing a lot of stuff.

Well I'm not presenting any theory as to why, except that it just did. The amplifier was a brand new one, and I know the designer, and I know that it is well designed, so I doubt turning it off and on would make a difference. It was the only item turned off, everything else remained powered up. I have no idea why it did what it did.

[timelessbeing]

I said some people. And yes, full disclosure, I'm not a psychologist. Everything I say is opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not judging anybody. We all have egos and they affect us on a subconscious level.

[timelessbeing]

Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.

I don't know how powerful this piece of equipment was, but with high current devices, you will get a lower voltage with power cables that have higher resistance. You will know this if you've tried to use a saw or something on a long extension. Just an idea, but this could have affected the output volume. In this case, you still don't need fancy cables, just power cords that are properly sized to the application (16awg or whatever the case may be).

[adauphin]

Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.

I don't know how powerful this piece of equipment was, but with high current devices, you will get a lower voltage with power cables that have higher resistance. You will know this if you've tried to use a saw or something on a long extension. Just an idea, but this could have affected the output volume. In this case, you still don't need fancy cables, just power cords that are properly sized to the application (16awg or whatever the case may be).

Or maybe the fact that when the cord was changed, it sounded better. 

Seems that you may have a belief that nothing can sound better, it all sounds the same. For whatever reason, one cable is different from another, everything is on the table that can be different, except for the fact it can sound better, it's all a placebo effect....some wild hopeless fantasy that the audio being heard is the same and we are hoping, and imagining it could be better.

What defines better? The fact a vocal can sound a bit more true to life than before? The cymbal ride doesnt just have a crash sound but also a noticeable decay? Etc, etc.

I stated earlier that I had performed the same thing.....I replaced my upgraded cords with stock cords for a short session and it sounded much worse.

I get all the math involved, I'm not doubting that there are numerical values and in physics, electronics, numbers don't lie. I also get the fact there are many angles to what is going on, especially the psychological angle. The fact there are quite a numerous amount of people that hear differences, positive or negative, holds value. Not everyone is imagining things. 

[wraper]

Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.

It's just well prepared con show. There are many ways how to do this. Increase volume, play different track, adjust EQ. All of this can be done unnoticed even if spectator is relatively vigilant.