The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.

[adauphin]

Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.

It's just well prepared con show. There are many ways how to do this. Increase volume, play different track, adjust EQ. All of this can be done unnoticed even if spectator is relatively vigilant.

There's surely a possibility it could happen. There's also a possibility that it didn't.

There's more to a stereo system than a woofer cone and a CD.

[wraper]

Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.

It's just well prepared con show. There are many ways how to do this. Increase volume, play different track, adjust EQ. All of this can be done unnoticed even if spectator is relatively vigilant.

There's surely a possibility it could happen. There's also a possibility that it didn't.

There's more to a stereo system than a woofer cone and a CD.

Yeah, and less than 2 meter power cable sprinkled with virgin blood is supposed to have any effect when there is long wiring of cheap cables connected in series to it  .

[timelessbeing]

Seems that you may have a belief that nothing can sound better, it all sounds the same.

You are overreacting. I never said that, and of course it's not true.
Enclosures built with acoustics in mind can sound better. Low noise power supplies can sound better. Etc...

Power cables certainly will not have a measurable difference.

There are certain properties that are desirable in audio signal cables. I do not deny that. For example, coaxial cables can reject more interference. But the importance and claims of cabling in general is WAY overblown, and rife with exaggerations and outright lies.

[adauphin]

Yeah, and less than 2 meter power cable is supposed to have any effect when there is long wiring of cheap cables connected in series to it  .

I mentioned that earlier.

Here's another angle to look at....how about an inferior cable taking away from the purity of a signal? How pure? Not putting a numerical value on it. But how about the possibility of accepting the......idea, that one cable can contribute to higher THD. By that rationale, there's the option of a cable contributing to a lower SQ.

[timelessbeing]

how about the possibility of accepting the......idea, that one cable can contribute to higher THD.

So what are you waiting for? Show us how you measured lower THD with your litz wire.

[Gary.M]

Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.

I don't know how powerful this piece of equipment was, but with high current devices, you will get a lower voltage with power cables that have higher resistance. You will know this if you've tried to use a saw or something on a long extension. Just an idea, but this could have affected the output volume. In this case, you still don't need fancy cables, just power cords that are properly sized to the application (16awg or whatever the case may be).

Yes, well there is that. The standard cable was a regular issue 1.5 meter mains cord terminated with an IEC C14 connector. The one that was substituted was quite a lot heavier gauge with substantial 3 pin and IEC connectors. However the loudspeakers were stand mounted units with a 5.25" bass driver, and the room was on the small size, so no power needed.

[Gary.M]

Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.

It's just well prepared con show. There are many ways how to do this. Increase volume, play different track, adjust EQ. All of this can be done unnoticed even if spectator is relatively vigilant.

Well it couldn't be this either as the salesman wasn't the one making changes. It was just a guy who was curious and himself was surprised. No-one touched any of the controls and the guy played the same track each time, I guess to make comparison easier. These systems don't have eq either, that is a dirty word.

[Gary.M]

At some levels, when people are passionate about things any subject becomes become a matter of faith. Once they reach that level, then it is usually either not worth talking, unless you want to join them. The are missionaries of their religion.

On a somewhat unrelated subject, I had a chat with somebody who does not believe in anthropomorphic climate change. They were a local politician. It was very painful for us both.

Audiophiles are a more harmless version of the same effect. They are trapped in a self-reinforcing feedback loop. The more skin one has have in the came (speakers, music, wire, 'source material', $$) the more important it becomes, and the less likely it is that one can provide an objective assessment. If you don't agree with them then change the subject or move on - you will never win, and only make them dig in harder.

Oh, and on the global warming topic there was some other crackpot who believed that it was all an big IPCC conspiracy, and they have forced various government and non-government agencies to falsify data - going as far as reprinting old books - to support their political agenda. Apparently he had an nephew who worked for [agency X] and they are all a bunch of crooks. Sigh...

Now now, you're confusing conspiracy theorists with people passionate about their pastime. As before I think you're looking over the fence at neighbours who don't speak the same language as you, and you're telling them that their world is wrong, despite there being a communication barrier.

[timelessbeing]

Please do not hijack this topic with your climate change opinions. It's completely off topic. Thanks. 

[timelessbeing]

you're looking over the fence at neighbours who don't speak the same language as you, and you're telling them that their world is wrong

Audio and electronics share much of the same vocabulary. 

[timelessbeing]

If you don't agree with them then change the subject or move on - you will never win

With that mindset no you won't.

But if you don't set out to win an argument, and just discuss some specifics with an open mind, you often come away learning something. (even if you don't want to admit it). It doesn't have to be a contest.

[BravoV]

No thanks.    I'm not interested in "aid", mobs or drama. Things are pretty civil so far (except the name calling). There has been a little bit of productive discussion, and maybe even a tiny bit of open mindedness. Escalation will only take things backwards.

Declaring people as a "type" is pretty insulting. The super-subtle "we don't take kindly to your folk around here" talk sounds like it's taken straight out of a scene of "Deliverance". Intimidation is a sad resort for people who have nothing intelligent to say. 

Poking fun on the other hand is totally fair game. In good humour of course. (and ideally tasteful and funny).

This is a science-centric forum so hopefully everybody comes expecting grown-up academic discussion. I think it's a big shame every time an opportunity for somebody to learn something is missed.

Fine, either you like it or not, its just the way it is the nature of this forum, many have the same taste as you said, the sense of poking fun, and from the past, at many discussions like this, ended up not pretty. My words actually more toward for the other side. 

[timelessbeing]

Thank you for the warning. Like I said, things are cool.

[wraper]

Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.

It's just well prepared con show. There are many ways how to do this. Increase volume, play different track, adjust EQ. All of this can be done unnoticed even if spectator is relatively vigilant.

Well it couldn't be this either as the salesman wasn't the one making changes. It was just a guy who was curious and himself was surprised. No-one touched any of the controls and the guy played the same track each time, I guess to make comparison easier. These systems don't have eq either, that is a dirty word.

Have you thought this 'random' guy was actually one of those who sold this crap? It's a well known con tactic when some of the crowd are con men in disguise.

No-one touched any of the controls

There is such thing as remote control.

[timelessbeing]

That what I was thinking in the back of my head when I read that. But we will never prove it so it's pointless to discuss.

[Gary.M]

you're looking over the fence at neighbours who don't speak the same language as you, and you're telling them that their world is wrong

Audio and electronics share much of the same vocabulary. 

Not quite what I meant. We all speak the English language, but we are engineers, and there are others who are doctors, research scientists etc. Without being in an area of special interest it is hard to hold firm and valid opinions on it.

[Gary.M]

Have you thought this 'random' guy was actually one of those who sold this crap? It's a well known con tactic when some of the crowd are con men in disguise.

No-one touched any of the controls

There is such thing as remote control.

Well no. There were just maybe 4 people in the room, and the guy who swapped the cable was definitely not suspect. I know him and he was not employed by the store. Also no-one was trying to demo anything to sell it, we were just kicking the tyres. The remote control was sitting untouched, I noted this.

[wraper]

Have you thought this 'random' guy was actually one of those who sold this crap? It's a well known con tactic when some of the crowd are con men in disguise.

No-one touched any of the controls

There is such thing as remote control.

Well no. There were just maybe 4 people in the room, and the guy who swapped the cable was definitely not suspect. I know him and he was not employed by the store. Also no-one was trying to demo anything to sell it, we were just kicking the tyres. The remote control was sitting untouched, I noted this.

Yeah, and of course a only single piece remote control can exist.

[timelessbeing]

It doesn't really matter. We can go back and forth like this until the cow comes home.

The bottom line is that one guy saying "it sounded better to me" amounts to diddly squat. There's no theory, no data or explanation of any kind behind it.

[rs20]

Probably no chance of bringing this conversation back-on-topic at this stage, but this idea that solid wire is "the worst" needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Like, the fact that they use tubes of copper instead of solid bars is *not* because the tubes are better than solid bars in any absolute sense; they're just better per kilogram of copper. Carving the copper out of the middle of the rod to make the tube (yes I know that's not how tubes are made) increases the AC resistance a bit, they only reason they do so is because it's worth it for the copper your reclaim.

Consider comparing 1.5mm solid wire with 2.5mm solid wire. You would think that because the 2.5mm solid wire is bigger, the proportion of metal that is at the surface (by whatever fixed definition of depth you choose) will be lower, and that the "skin effect" would be more severe. Indeed, the ratiometric difference between DC resistance of 2.5mm solid wire and 20 kHz AC resistance of 2.5mm solid wire is greater than the ratiometric difference between DC 1.5mm and 20kHz 1.5mm.

HOWEVER, the 2.5mm solid wire has considerably more surface area than the 1.5mm solid wire, so its AC resistance at any given frequency is lower. It's just that at the limiting case, it decreases in proportion to the radius, not the radius squared as you would normally assume. The obvious and intuitive fact that 2.5mm solid wire carries electricity much better than a 1.5mm conductor holds perfectly true at both DC and 20kHz.

Take some speakers 10m (!) away from the amplifier, so a loop length of 20m. Here are the impedances at DC and 20 kHz:

         DC   20kHz
1.5mm  0.190  0.215   ohms
2.5mm  0.068  0.111   ohms


Now assuming the speakers have a flat 8 Ohm resistance (actually have no idea how valid this is but let's run with it), that works out to attenuations (in dB) of:

         DC   20kHz
1.5mm  0.204  0.230   dB
2.5mm  0.074  0.120   dB


To my surprise, it turns out that the flatness of the 2.5mm wire (0.046 dB) is inferior to the 1.5mm wire (0.026 dB). However, let's just keep things in context: 0.046 dB of flatness is absolutely inaudibly insignificant. Remember we're talking about a 10m long speaker wire here.

Reflecting upon this further, it turns out that both extremes (a tiny hair of wire that is immune to skin effect and a solid infinite diameter ingot of copper) have perfect flatness. There exists a worst-case diameter for flatness from DC to 20kHz, somewhere above 2.5mm. I wonder what that is?

Either way, avoiding solid wire on the basis of "skin effect" in audio applications is just silly.

[Gary.M]

Have you thought this 'random' guy was actually one of those who sold this crap? It's a well known con tactic when some of the crowd are con men in disguise.

No-one touched any of the controls

There is such thing as remote control.

Well no. There were just maybe 4 people in the room, and the guy who swapped the cable was definitely not suspect. I know him and he was not employed by the store. Also no-one was trying to demo anything to sell it, we were just kicking the tyres. The remote control was sitting untouched, I noted this.

Yeah, and of course a only single piece remote control can exist.

Your comments aren't at all constructive, merely combative.

Sent from my MI 8 using Tapatalk

[Gary.M]

On the impedance thing, loudspeakers  can have wildly varying impedance, so it's possible that you would get interaction with a cable, but, perhaps the amplifier's damping factor and output Z comes into play as well. I don't think considering the construction of the wire is that useful.

Sent from my MI 8 using Tapatalk

[timelessbeing]

Yeah, and of course a only single piece remote control can exist.

Your comments aren't at all constructive, merely combative.

He's being a bit snarky, but he still has a point.

[timelessbeing]

I don't think considering the construction of the wire is that useful.

Well that's exactly what this topic is about... using Litz wire to mitigate skin effect.

[timelessbeing]