This is why we should all leave the EU

[owiecc]

Which was the point i made, as you say the motor is not important factor, so why legislate on it ? How about they legislate on efficiency rating

You didn't read the document yet? These are the requirements:

Vacuum cleaners shall comply with the following requirements (2014):
- annual energy consumption shall be less than 62,0 kWh/year,
- rated input power shall be less than 1 600 W,
- dust pick up on carpet (dpuc) shall be greater than or equal to 0,70. This limit shall not apply to hard floor vacuum cleaners,
- dust pick up on hard floor (dpuhf) shall be greater than or equal to 0,95. This limit shall not apply to carpet vacuum cleaners.

These do not apply to industrial vacuum cleaners.

Look at the last two requirements. They say how efficient vacuuming is. Not how efficient motor is. This is the important stuff.

Iin 2017 manufacturers will have tighter standards:

- annual energy consumption shall be less than 43,0 kWh/year,
- rated input power shall be less than 900W,
- dust pick up on carpet (dpuc ) shall be greater than or equal to 0,75. This limit shall not apply to hard floor vacuum cleaners,
- dust pick up on hard floor (dpuhf ) shall be greater than or equal to 0,98. This limit shall not apply to carpet vacuum cleaners,
- dust re-emission shall be no more than 1,00 %,
- sound power level shall be less than or equal to 80 dB(A),
- the hose, if any, shall be durable so that it is still useable after 40 000 oscillations under strain,
- operational motor lifetime shall be greater than or equal to 500 hours.

[Simon]

I'm a very ecological minded person, but i also look at the bigger picture.

What's in the bigger picture that takes precedence over your environment?

Knee jerk reactions in one small area never help the environment, they just shift the problem elsewhere or cause side effect problems. The biggest problem is companies wanting to make a quick buck and loads of profit. It's like electric cars, sounds great if your one track minded and just looking at cars and their output, but as soon as you consider the wider picture and the true environmental concerns you find that your just shifting the problem elsewhere and making it worse. the solution to electric cars is to design and implement better and less carbon dependent electricity to put in those cars before you make a statement, throw loads of our money at incentives that actually costs ridiculous amounts to the tax payer and actually make the larger scale problem worse.

If only politicians were engineers...........

I bought a 120W hedge trimmer, it was useless, took ages to get the job done as it cut so bad. Then i found a battered 200W one in my out building that was abandoned by the previous house owner. Stuck a plug on it and gave it a go. I flogged the "new" 120W trimmer that was useless and kept the beaten up old 200W one and get the job done in under 1/2 the time. Tell me which trimmer is "greener"

I don't think you've answered my question. If you did can you reword it and possibly make it less verbose for me?

I answered it perfectly but you don't want to listen!

I'm being quite serious. Your original claims seemed to be contradictory so I asked my question. If you don't understand the question then please say so. If you can't or don't want to answer the question then that's fine.

The environment is the bigger picture but often a small part of the problem is tackled so the direct result of that is that it "looks" better but the overall result is that it's no better or worse and costs us a fortune usually to the tax payer in subsidies like electric cars, my example was clear and VERY pertinent.

[XOIIO]

Which was the point i made, as you say the motor is not important factor, so why legislate on it ? How about they legislate on efficiency rating

You didn't read the document yet? These are the requirements:

Vacuum cleaners shall comply with the following requirements (2014):
- annual energy consumption shall be less than 62,0 kWh/year,
- rated input power shall be less than 1 600 W,
- dust pick up on carpet (dpuc) shall be greater than or equal to 0,70. This limit shall not apply to hard floor vacuum cleaners,
- dust pick up on hard floor (dpuhf) shall be greater than or equal to 0,95. This limit shall not apply to carpet vacuum cleaners.

These do not apply to industrial vacuum cleaners.

Look at the last two requirements. They say how efficient vacuuming is. Not how efficient motor is. This is the important stuff.

Iin 2017 manufacturers will have tighter standards:

- annual energy consumption shall be less than 43,0 kWh/year,
- rated input power shall be less than 900W,
- dust pick up on carpet (dpuc ) shall be greater than or equal to 0,75. This limit shall not apply to hard floor vacuum cleaners,
- dust pick up on hard floor (dpuhf ) shall be greater than or equal to 0,98. This limit shall not apply to carpet vacuum cleaners,
- dust re-emission shall be no more than 1,00 %,
- sound power level shall be less than or equal to 80 dB(A),
- the hose, if any, shall be durable so that it is still useable after 40 000 oscillations under strain,
- operational motor lifetime shall be greater than or equal to 500 hours.

Only 500 hours? Wow, it should be 5000 hours.

[bwat]

I'm a very ecological minded person, but i also look at the bigger picture.

What's in the bigger picture that takes precedence over your environment?

Knee jerk reactions in one small area never help the environment, they just shift the problem elsewhere or cause side effect problems. The biggest problem is companies wanting to make a quick buck and loads of profit. It's like electric cars, sounds great if your one track minded and just looking at cars and their output, but as soon as you consider the wider picture and the true environmental concerns you find that your just shifting the problem elsewhere and making it worse. the solution to electric cars is to design and implement better and less carbon dependent electricity to put in those cars before you make a statement, throw loads of our money at incentives that actually costs ridiculous amounts to the tax payer and actually make the larger scale problem worse.

If only politicians were engineers...........

I bought a 120W hedge trimmer, it was useless, took ages to get the job done as it cut so bad. Then i found a battered 200W one in my out building that was abandoned by the previous house owner. Stuck a plug on it and gave it a go. I flogged the "new" 120W trimmer that was useless and kept the beaten up old 200W one and get the job done in under 1/2 the time. Tell me which trimmer is "greener"

I don't think you've answered my question. If you did can you reword it and possibly make it less verbose for me?

I answered it perfectly but you don't want to listen!

I'm being quite serious. Your original claims seemed to be contradictory so I asked my question. If you don't understand the question then please say so. If you can't or don't want to answer the question then that's fine.

The environment is the bigger picture

So the answer is "nothing"?

but often a small part of the problem is tackled so the direct result of that is that it "looks" better but the overall result is that it's no better or worse and costs us a fortune usually to the tax payer in subsidies like electric cars, my example was clear and VERY pertinent.

To be brutally honest I think you need to work on your reading comprehension because what you wrote there has nothing to do with my question. I wasn't asking about problems or how to tackle them so I don't see the relevance. I merely asked what in your "bigger picture" was taking precedence over your environment.

[grumpydoc]

Only 500 hours? Wow, it should be 5000 hours.

If they are thinking 62kWh/year at 1600W then they are modelling approx 40 hours of use per year which seems reasonable in a domestic setting. So 500 hours means a motor life of >10 years at that duty cycle.

[Rufus]

Vacuum cleaners shall comply with the following requirements (2014):

What kind of vacuum cleaner I buy should be up to me not some unelected bureaucrat sitting in Brussels.

I would be happy with legislation requiring manufacturers to provide more performance and efficiency information which would help me exercise my right to choose. But no, I am not trusted to make (in their view) the right choices so the legislation removes from the market some of the worse (in their view) choices and my right to choose has gone.

Regardless of technical arguments that alone is enough reason to agree with the OP that the EU should f**k off and die.

[SeanB]

I use 2 vacuum cleaners at home, a pretty beat up old Hoover upright and a newer one. The beat up old one is better at cleaning floors and gets dust and dirt out great, while the newer one is not as good, but has a flexible hose attachment so I can clean other things like furniture. Both were picked up free and thrown out, just needed some bags ( aftermarket generic Hoover bags at $1 each) and a clean and minor repairs.

At work I have a Electrolux 650W cylinder vacuum ( the car vac, known as the "soon to die" one) and a Columbus cylinder, known as the "Dirty Vac", as I use it to clean grease, muck, gunge and assorted horrid stuff out of machinery. Has had a new motor ( 500W) and new hoses over the years, along with lots of new washable filter elements. Looks like cr@p, but works well. I wash it after every job so it stays relatively dust free.

[Simon]

The bigger picture is the environment, but often policy claims aren't actually looking at the environment but a small part of the problem, it's not my bigger picture but that of policy makers. which often goes as far as a knee jerk reaction and a result that is a result if your ignoring the environment,

AGAIN CLASSIC EXAMPLE electric cars, great idea, cars that have zero emissions WHILE THEY ARE GOING DOWN THE ROAD so policy makers claim victory and ignore the power station emissions to charge them later when they ARE NO LONGER GOING ALONG THE ROAD

All clear now or do i need to use baby talk ??!!!!!

[German_EE]

Please could I add another vote for wooden floors and no carpets? We re-floored our entire apartment when we moved in and apart from making the cleaning easier it's cut the amount of dust down to almost zero.

Our vacuum cleaner may have a 2Kw motor but it sounds like a fighter jet and it only gets used once a month.

[bwat]

The bigger picture is the environment, but often policy claims aren't actually looking at the environment but a small part of the problem, it's not my bigger picture but that of policy makers. which often goes as far as a knee jerk reaction and a result that is a result if your ignoring the environment,

AGAIN CLASSIC EXAMPLE electric cars, great idea, cars that have zero emissions WHILE THEY ARE GOING DOWN THE ROAD so policy makers claim victory and ignore the power station emissions to charge them later when they ARE NO LONGER GOING ALONG THE ROAD

All clear now or do i need to use baby talk ??!!!!!

Again, lots of text not related to the question.

Simon, this isn't an attack on you please understand this. I think you need to see that there's a pattern that's become obvious to some of us (me at least): you got into a mess not reading the exam question on your BTEC paper, you got yourself into a mess not  reading the EU rules the BBC story was about, and now you're in a mess answering the question you think I asked, not the question I actually asked. You need to work on your reading comprehension and not jump to conclusions. I just know you're going to take this the wrong way but I had to write it. I'm genuinely sorry if you're offended.

[Simon]

The bigger picture is the environment, but often policy claims aren't actually looking at the environment but a small part of the problem, it's not my bigger picture but that of policy makers. which often goes as far as a knee jerk reaction and a result that is a result if your ignoring the environment,

AGAIN CLASSIC EXAMPLE electric cars, great idea, cars that have zero emissions WHILE THEY ARE GOING DOWN THE ROAD so policy makers claim victory and ignore the power station emissions to charge them later when they ARE NO LONGER GOING ALONG THE ROAD

All clear now or do i need to use baby talk ??!!!!!

Again, lots of text not related to the question.

Simon, this isn't an attack on you please understand this. I think you need to see that there's a pattern that's become obvious to some of us (me at least): you got into a mess not reading the exam question on your BTEC paper, you got yourself into a mess not  reading the EU rules the BBC story was about, and now you're in a mess answering the question you think I asked, not the question I actually asked. You need to work on your reading comprehension and not jump to conclusions. I just know you're going to take this the wrong way but I had to write it. I'm genuinely sorry if you're offended.

You just don't want to hear the argument.

[Simon]

Oh and why no moan to the BBC for not making all of the facts available ? seriously if you have time to trawl through every paper the EU releases then good luck.

[owiecc]

What kind of vacuum cleaner I buy should be up to me not some unelected bureaucrat sitting in Brussels.

No. As a society we limit some of the thing that we can do so that the society can benefit. This is called a law. Otherwise it would be every man for himself. Now vacuum cleaners are part of this law because people were doing stupid things.

I would be happy with legislation requiring manufacturers to provide more performance and efficiency information which would help me exercise my right to choose. But no, I am not trusted to make (in their view) the right choices so the legislation removes from the market some of the worse (in their view) choices and my right to choose has gone.

You had a choice for a long time. Manufacturers could have given you the information. They chose not to do it because they decided people will ignore the facts and just buy the most powerful vacuum. This did not work and therefore action was taken by EU. If the market had self regulated itself into right direction EU would't need to pass any law. IMO this is the right way.

[Simon]

It still won't stop cheap bad performing units being sold that will break down prematurely and go to landfill, so much more wasted in metal and plastic and most likely non of it will get recycled.

Yes you can and i stress CAN make a good vacuum cleaner with a lower power motor but who will make you ? the market is already full of sub 1KW vacuum cleaners that should never have been made because they are useless and just made to be cheap and if you use them you will use up 10x+ materials and energy in their manufacture. - Like i said - bigger picture.

[bwat]

The bigger picture is the environment, but often policy claims aren't actually looking at the environment but a small part of the problem, it's not my bigger picture but that of policy makers. which often goes as far as a knee jerk reaction and a result that is a result if your ignoring the environment,

AGAIN CLASSIC EXAMPLE electric cars, great idea, cars that have zero emissions WHILE THEY ARE GOING DOWN THE ROAD so policy makers claim victory and ignore the power station emissions to charge them later when they ARE NO LONGER GOING ALONG THE ROAD

All clear now or do i need to use baby talk ??!!!!!

Again, lots of text not related to the question.

Simon, this isn't an attack on you please understand this. I think you need to see that there's a pattern that's become obvious to some of us (me at least): you got into a mess not reading the exam question on your BTEC paper, you got yourself into a mess not  reading the EU rules the BBC story was about, and now you're in a mess answering the question you think I asked, not the question I actually asked. You need to work on your reading comprehension and not jump to conclusions. I just know you're going to take this the wrong way but I had to write it. I'm genuinely sorry if you're offended.

You just don't want to hear the argument.

I don't care about your argument; I only care about your answer. The question was:

What's in the bigger picture that takes precedence over your environment?

Some suitable answers:
- nothing.
- my free time.
- my money.
- ...
See zapta's answer to the very same question. He seemed to be able to provide an answer.

Oh and why no moan to the BBC for not making all of the facts available ? seriously if you have time to trawl through every paper the EU releases then good luck.

But it's important to get the right information when it comes to decision making. As the Nobel prize and Turing award winner H. Simon wrote:

Any rational decision may be viewed as a conclusion reached from certain premises.... The behaviour of a rational person can be controlled, therefore, if the value and factual premises upon which he bases his decisions are specified for him.

You just let the BBC specify your "factual premises" and look what happened - you were controlled. It's your responsibility to get the correct "value and factual premises".

[Simon]

So basically you have made your mind up as to what is right and wrong and if people or more specifically me get the answer "wrong" in your eyes you treat them like idiots and pretend their missing something instead of debate the actual arguments. You have done more judging in this thread than actually putting your own point, or don't you have one other than to target people ?

I say again i don't have hours a day to read every law passed, I albeit indirectly employ politicians and the media to in the first case look after my interests and second to keep me informed. Obviously they are not perfect and I'd rather do without both. Sadly i actually have to work for a living most of the day instead of read every new law and policy wish list. Instead of pretending other people have problems sort out your own problems.

[bwat]

So basically you have made your mind up as to what is right and wrong and if people or more specifically me get the answer "wrong" in your eyes

It really wasn't a pass/fail question.

you treat them like idiots and pretend their missing something instead of debate the actual arguments. You have done more judging in this thread than actually putting your own point, or don't you have one other than to target people ?

I'm trying to tell you that you seem to be exhibiting a pattern of behaviour that can be quite limiting. What you do with that is up to you.

I say again i don't have hours a day to read every law passed

You should at least read the ones you publicly decry.

[zapta]

...Yes you can and i stress CAN make a good vacuum cleaner with a lower power motor but who will make you ? the market is already full of sub 1KW vacuum cleaners that should never have been made because they are useless and just made to be cheap and if you use them you will use up 10x+ materials and energy in their manufacture. - Like i said - bigger picture.

It's just one more aspect of big-government, bureaucrats and and utopians run amok and the laws and regulations keep piling in an attempt to regulate the perfect world. It's the new form of collectivism.

[Rufus]

What kind of vacuum cleaner I buy should be up to me not some unelected bureaucrat sitting in Brussels.

No. As a society we limit some of the thing that we can do so that the society can benefit. This is called a law. Otherwise it would be every man for himself. Now vacuum cleaners are part of this law because people were doing stupid things.

As a society we can choose to do those things, and politicians do and and voters have at least a little control over them. This is called democracy.

Do you work in the EU bureaucracy? Your assertion that 'people' were doing stupid things (buying vacuum cleaners ffs?) and that you know better and people should be forced to do what you think they should indicates you would fit right in.

We have no control over EU bureaucrats almost no control over EU politicians, local politicians shrug off criticism of EU policy blaming the EU and offer little prospect of change. The EU is an enormous thoroughly undemocratic political machine mostly serving itself. Thankfully fringe political parties offering the prospect of change like UKIP in the UK are rapidly gaining popularity.

I am reminded of a quote by C.S. Lewis

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

[XOIIO]

Hmm, maybe I should make a vacuum cleaner with one of those 1/2hp motors I have 

[Simon]

Unfortunately most individuals only care for themselves so the wider picture of the environment we live in is of no interest to them. some people will genuinely not be able to spend much money so will buy the cheapest, the nastiest and most pointless goods. It's an argument i keep having with my dad who wants everything so cheap yet expects it to be perfect and work for years and years.

Who is going to test and rate the vacuum cleaners ? What the EU should do is institute that any appliance is designed to work efficiently and last a reasonable amount of time. that way the cheap rubbish that is expensive in the long run will be removed from the market. Once upon a time a vacuum cleaner was so well made and so expensive that you bought it on finance from a man that can to your door the same day you got paid and demonstrated it and took your deposit. These days we pick vacuum cleaners up with our food shopping.

I bought my 2KW vax in lidl, it is powerful, it works very well on a clean filter but due to the actual volume available for dust being so small the filter clogs quickly and it starts to become innefective eventually. In order to maintain efficiency and therefore reduce the time i spend using it and make every watt count i wash the filter regularly.

[madires]

Being ecological (green) does not have to be such a problem. It becomes a problem when knee jerk policies are inacted in the name of being green without looking at the overall picture.

My sister bought a nice little 700W vacum cleaner, did not work very well and broke down after 3 months........ is that the EU's idea of saving the planet ? or lining manufacturers, importers and retailers pockets ? 

My vacuum cleaner I bought last year got 2200W but I run it at about 450-500W without any problems. My observation about the increasing power ratings over the years is that it might be related to additional filters, profit and customers. Most people think that more power is better, so they choose the vac with the higher power rating. The higher power rating also compensates the loss of suction caused by additional filters and allows to keep the design simple and cheap. A more efficient vac would require more effort in R&D, and could be less profitable. I think that the idea of limiting the power rating is to force the vendors to increase the efficiency of the vacs. Hence the performance requirements. Otherwise vendors would simply put larger motors into the vacs to meet the required performance. I'm not happy with everything the EU does but this seems to be a quite reasonable idea.

[Simon]

I just fear that we will end up with more premature failures from vacuum cleaners with motors that struggle and pass the "tests" but fail after some use, again who is testing these things ? We've all heard of controls, regulations, quango's.

[SirNick]

I just fear that we will end up with more premature failures from vacuum cleaners with motors that struggle and pass the "tests" but fail after some use, again who is testing these things ? We've all heard of controls, regulations, quango's.

That's a possible outcome, but it isn't necessarily the only outcome.  You can't regulate a perfect product, but the EU seems to be doing what they can in a reasonable way:

They want a ceiling on the total power input, as it is trending upward and getting out of hand.  The market and the public failed to resolve this, so the EU stepped in and called time-out.  Fair enough.  People had freedom, people failed to police themselves, people's freedom got taken away.  That's kinda how it works.  Any parent or pet owner has put that exact same system into effect.

They want a certain level of efficiency, so the net effect of the law is not just a reduction in power, but a reduction in wasted power.  Seems like a wise move, and contrary to some of the key complaints in the first couple pages of this thread.

To curb premature failure, they require a reasonable expected lifetime of the system under these constraints.

To recap:  They are requiring less waste, better efficiency, and durability.  If consumers had done that themselves, the gov't would've have stepped in.

Will it totally prevent lemons and underpowered vacuums?  Nope.  But there will be appliances that fit the guidelines and are built well.  Ultimately, consumers will decide the fate of the products on the market at that time.  There.  You still have freedom, so use it wisely.

As to who tests these things, probably the same people who test large appliance efficiency, or EMC, or electrical safety.  There will be requirements for compliance, and testing centers certified to test for that compliance.  This isn't a ground-breaking idea, so I'm sure it can be modeled after some existing pattern that has proven more or less successful.

Disclosure:  This law doesn't (won't) apply to me, so my only involvement is as an interested bystander.  If it did apply to me, I would have no problem with it.

[Simon]

I'm afraid the consumer has no control, good quality machines generally have more powerful motors and some have speed control like mine. We can only buy what is offered.

the only control the consumer has is to try and choose the best one but how many people understand the in's and outs, many genuinely can't afford much so buy cheap rubbish that costs more in the ling run.

if what they are limiting is the motor power rather than power consumption that is not the best idea and one of those little knee jerk reactions. Regulating power consumption makes more sense, the motors can be made for more power and de-rated, that would automatically extend their life and is directly reflected in the documentation i have read much of when trying to find a motor to use in a hand drier, 48V 1KW motors are available but the datasheet heavily recommended 36V and stated life time at 36V despite the motor being rated for 48V. I expect that a 2KW motor designed for 300V may well run at 1.6KW at 240V, providing the EU are happy with that we may be ok.

Unless clear rules are made about the design we won't necessarily get good products. My vacuum cleaner could do with more dust storage space, do we need a law for that ?

If they are genuinely going to take an all round approach then I don't have a problem and have a problem with reactionary media.