Author Topic: This is why we should all leave the EU  (Read 142903 times)

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Online bookaboo

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2014, 07:37:57 pm »
Yeah these appliances go through a tonne of CE directives as it is, would be pretty trivial and useful to add one for efficiency. Power cap is a good first step though.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2014, 07:56:44 pm »
Plenty of directives, but often enforcement is complaint driven rather than something actively sought by the importers.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2014, 08:01:41 pm »
Yeah these appliances go through a tonne of CE directives as it is, would be pretty trivial and useful to add one for efficiency. Power cap is a good first step though.

Are you joking ? how hard is it to print a CE mark ? that is all it takes, you the manufacturer write out a peice of paper to say that your product complies and put a label on the product, congrats, you just passed CE. There is nothing to pass with CE you just have to hope that you read the directives and work out which ones apply and do the testing yourself. Some of it is stringent and makes you go to certain test houses.

i think we all know that CE marking of goods from china is a poor joke!
 

Offline minibutmany

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2014, 08:26:25 pm »
Lol, what's the big deal? It's a vacuum cleaner, they are barely used. Sheesh.
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Online tszaboo

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2014, 08:29:40 pm »
Vacuum cleaners shall comply with the following requirements (2014):
- annual energy consumption shall be less than 62,0 kWh/year,
- rated input power shall be less than 1 600 W,
- dust pick up on carpet (dpuc) shall be greater than or equal to 0,70. This limit shall not apply to hard floor vacuum cleaners,
- dust pick up on hard floor (dpuhf) shall be greater than or equal to 0,95. This limit shall not apply to carpet vacuum cleaners.

I must say, then after all, there is some brain in their heads. When I was buying it the last time, I went for something small,  bag-less with decent quality. In fact, it would be useful to specify the efficient rating of it like with fridges and washing machines.
Even though my argument is still valid. This is a less frequently used appliance, so reducing the consumption is not that useful. I dont know where they got the 4x KWh/year number. Probably some old english lady living in a castle with 40 cats.
 

Offline SirNick

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2014, 08:31:42 pm »
Sure, CE markings are forged with regularity.  The likelihood of that depends on whether your brand has credibility.  Hoover and Dyson aren't going to forge CE.  SucksAll will, and when it dies within 15 hours of use, hopefully the consumer learns that was not money well spent.  If not... well... regulation can only help so much.  At some point, you have to stop being careless with your money.
 

Offline denelec

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2014, 09:47:10 pm »
If you leave the EU, don't go to the USA or Canada.  ;)
Our 120V 15A outlets severely limits the power available.  |O
>1600W vacuum cleaners would be impossible here.  :-//
Unless maybe for a central vacuum cleaner wired to a 240V circuit.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2014, 09:55:46 pm »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28878432

I mean seriously ? what version of prick dreamed this up ? where did they get their technical background ?
Well if you want to keep using outdated, energy inefficient equipment, stay locked into one vendor, etc, etc then by all means leave the EU. You don't need a lot of power to make a good vacuum cleaner. It's just about using more clever techniques. The high power ones are mostly the cheap ones that don't turn that extra power (and increasingly more money!) into a better result. How do the English say that? 'Good riddance' IIRC!
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Offline rolycat

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2014, 10:29:20 pm »
There is surely a point of diminishing returns which lies well below 1600W.

I have a (cheap) robot vacuum cleaner which consumes around 20W. While it's not a total replacement for a conventional machine it does a surprisingly effective job on both hard floors and carpet, and it has a HEPA filter.

I wouldn't pretend to be an expert, but my suspicion is that a domestic user needs a 2000W+  vacuum about as much as they need a 20+ megapixel phone camera with a miniscule lens and sensor, a five-blade razor, or any other triumph of marketing hype over engineering reason.
 

Offline M. András

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2014, 10:59:57 pm »
i just dont get it why arent they brothered to incrase the suction power and effectiveness of the whole vacuum turbine in them, seriously all you can get looking at some publshed specs on rated suction power and rated power input, seriously 3-400 watts suction for 2kw consumed power? thats pretty shitty effiency, they should enforce this not limiting this. im in no way educated enough to be easly think for solution to incrase the effectiveness but how hard could it be? ban all the cheap chinese inefficient shit even entering the continent etc then you can get a living from improving things. i would gladly pay a fair price for a vacuum cleaner that has enugh suction no to leave anthing on the floor or carpet. a good test would be cement, fire brick dust etc which sticks to everything and loves to stay there if that gets sucked up from a carpet without trace then im in the market for one ohh and the second 80dB max noise? make it 65 and we can talk.
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2014, 11:40:17 pm »
They want a ceiling on the total power input, as it is trending upward and getting out of hand.The market and the public failed to resolve this, so the EU stepped in and called time-out.  Fair enough.  People had freedom, people failed to police themselves, people's freedom got taken away.

People had the freedom to choose but they didn't make the choice we thought they should so we are going to take away their choice because we are right and they are wrong. And you call that fair enough? I don't think you understand the meaning of the word.

In a democracy what people choose is right by definition. The EU can get away with shit like this because it is completely devoid of any democratic accountability.
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2014, 12:05:21 am »
In a democracy what people choose is right by definition.
Nonsense. Just because the majority want something doesn't make it right.

This is one reason why most of us live in a representative democracy rather than a direct one.

Quote
The EU can get away with shit like this because it is completely devoid of any democratic accountability.
Not nonsense. But not as true as they probably wish.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2014, 12:28:57 am »
I mean seriously ? what version of prick dreamed this up ? where did they get their technical background ?

the actual docs:

http://ec.europa.eu/smart-regulation/impact/ia_carried_out/docs/ia_2013/swd_2013_0240_en.pdf
http://ec.europa.eu/smart-regulation/impact/ia_carried_out/docs/ia_2013/swd_2013_0241_en.pdf (summary of first document)
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32013R0666 (actual law)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2617/contents/made (UK law from adoption of EU regulation)

It seems pretty reasonable and well thought-through to me. It seems intuitively wrong that hoovers across the EU use more power than the whole of Denmark, and produce more emissions than washing machines and dishwashers. This at a time when other household devices have been becoming more efficient (eg computers are drastically more efficient than 15 years ago) hoovers have been getting worse by 2.5% PA.
Those Danes already get under the current regulations and have neatly classified one of their most popular cleaners as both a consumer and industrial product (with different model codes):

https://www.nilfisk.com/en/products/Pages/product.aspx?fid=14950&Name=GM%2080P%20220-240V%20EU

Everyone wants a Nozzle on their cleaner!
 

Offline SirNick

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2014, 12:50:36 am »
And you call that fair enough? I don't think you understand the meaning of the word.  ...  In a democracy what people choose is right by definition.

You might be right -- maybe it's not fair.  On the other hand, maybe one of the most important roles of government is the ability to enforce regulation upon people who are too self-absorbed to consider anything beyond their immediate desires.

Ironically, the people have the same responsibility regarding their government.

It boils down to this:  Mankind are merely animals, with all the same tendencies.  (And believe me, I am not pointing fingers here.  I understand I am one evolutionary step away from chasing my own tail.)  Everyone needs someone to call them on their BS.  And a 2kW home vacuum cleaner is a perfect example of BS.  It might not be the most pressing issue facing the union; it might just be low-hanging fruit that happened to get plucked this time.
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2014, 01:58:48 am »
Everyone needs someone to call them on their BS.  And a 2kW home vacuum cleaner is a perfect example of BS.

Except it isn't bullshit or only bullshit because they declare it to be and remember every point they make is from the eco green tosser perspective, for example this comment

Quote
Certainly there are silent vacuum cleaners at reportedly 66 dBA instead of the louder 80 dBA that one might expect from the average vacuum cleaner. But still, the power consumption is around 2200 W. Combinations of noise at those levels and a low power consumption can currently not be found. Note that, because of this negative correlation between noise and energy, stakeholders are not in favour of overly stringent noise requirements.

In other words my choice to buy a quiet vacuum cleaner and pay for the extra power consumption should be removed.

The following paragraph is just as bad, legislation will not require very high performance dust filters because they require more power, but, it will limit power anyway meaning people requiring high performance filters because of respiratory problems will just have to lump it and vacuum slowly.

So your claimed perfect example of bullshit is err bullshit.
 

Offline steve30

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2014, 05:29:03 am »
I expect a low power vacuum cleaner should be possible. I have an 1800W vacuum cleaner and I normally run it at a power of considerably less than that.

Its a shame that I don't have a Ewbank carpet sweeper. I've used those before and really like them. If I had one here, I would probably use the vacuum cleaner a lot less.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2014, 08:51:28 am »
So an electric car that needs to get power from a coal fired power station with all of the associated transmission losses is more efficient overall and better for the environment than just burning the fossil fuel directly in the car with no transmission losses and infrastructure costs ? Seriously ? until we have carbon neutral electricity generation this will never happen, as it is we can;t use renewables to generate enough electricity for household use never mind transportation......... No I haven't read your link, i did the basic math in my head!

If we are going to get sensible vacuum cleaner regulations then I accept them, as others have mentioned for something that is used occasionally the environmental argument is negligible, but quality of product would be nice to have, speaking of which why aren't ALL of our domestic appliances regulated for built quality and sensible efficiency ?
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2014, 08:52:22 am »
While I'm here I might as well debunk your nonsense about electric cars too: http://www.nextgreencar.com/electric-cars/environmental-benefits.php
This is still a very debatable subject since you should calculate the fabrication carbon footprint as well.
An electric car with 0 miles (so off factory) has the same carbon footprint of a conventional car with 80000 miles on it.  :o
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324128504578346913994914472
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2014, 08:54:04 am »
So an electric car that needs to get power from a coal fired power station with all of the associated transmission losses is more efficient overall and better for the environment than just burning the fossil fuel directly in the car with no transmission losses and infrastructure costs ? Seriously ?
If you only concentrate on that part it could be true. Don't forget that most power stations have to run 24/7 and only during daytime there is a great demand of the energy. So charging in the night or using energy in the night can be very interesting from this point of view.
 

Offline Yago

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2014, 10:14:09 am »
Whilst the aim seems laudable the propositions seems cart before the horse.
Enforce power cap then introduce self regulatory performance-testing.

Should start with enforced independent performance-testing, then see how little power can be used effectively.

 

Offline DenzilPenberthy

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2014, 10:36:27 am »
Can't say it any clearer than this. A direct quote from Simon:

Quote
"What the EU should do is institute that any appliance is designed to work efficiently and last a reasonable amount of time. that way the cheap rubbish that is expensive in the long run will be removed from the market."

"If they are genuinely going to take an all round approach then I don't have a problem and have a problem with reactionary media"
Then courtesy of owiecc:
Quote
"Vacuum cleaners shall comply with the following requirements (2014):
- annual energy consumption shall be less than 62,0 kWh/year,
- rated input power shall be less than 1 600 W,
- dust pick up on carpet (dpuc) shall be greater than or equal to 0,70. This limit shall not apply to hard floor vacuum cleaners,
- dust pick up on hard floor (dpuhf) shall be greater than or equal to 0,95. This limit shall not apply to carpet vacuum cleaners.

These do not apply to industrial vacuum cleaners.

Look at the last two requirements. They say how efficient vacuuming is. Not how efficient motor is. This is the important stuff.

Iin 2017 manufacturers will have tighter standards:

- annual energy consumption shall be less than 43,0 kWh/year,
- rated input power shall be less than 900W,
- dust pick up on carpet (dpuc ) shall be greater than or equal to 0,75. This limit shall not apply to hard floor vacuum cleaners,
- dust pick up on hard floor (dpuhf ) shall be greater than or equal to 0,98. This limit shall not apply to carpet vacuum cleaners,
- dust re-emission shall be no more than 1,00 %,
- sound power level shall be less than or equal to 80 dB(A),
- the hose, if any, shall be durable so that it is still useable after 40 000 oscillations under strain,
- operational motor lifetime shall be greater than or equal to 500 hours."

...which meets the definition of "institute that any appliance is designed to work efficiently and last a reasonable amount of time."

I think we can put this to bed now and move on.

 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2014, 10:44:33 am »
Does this unwanted rule also affect industrial cleaners?
I have no problem using that in my house.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline DenzilPenberthy

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2014, 10:48:51 am »
 |O

Quote
These do not apply to industrial vacuum cleaners.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2014, 11:09:04 am »
So an electric car that needs to get power from a coal fired power station with all of the associated transmission losses is more efficient overall and better for the environment than just burning the fossil fuel directly in the car with no transmission losses and infrastructure costs ? Seriously ? until we have carbon neutral electricity generation this will never happen, as it is we can;t use renewables to generate enough electricity for household use never mind transportation......... No I haven't read your link, i did the basic math in my head!
The UK electrical transmission loss is under 5%. For the US, a huge country, it's only 6%. High voltage transmission and 99.9% efficiency transformers do help.

I posted this previously:
Quote
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=105&t=3

About the same amount of fuel is consumed transporting petrol than is lost in the US grid system.  40,000 litres per tanker approx. Truck does about 5mpg. If it has to travel from port city to central distribution (it will change over in places of course, but this is an approximation) let's say ~1000mi distance then it will consume 200 gallons fuel or about 1000 litres, which is 2.5%, plus return journey, totaling 5% losses for transportation.
It's worse for the UK, because we have to import all oil to refine in the country (do we import petrol too? maybe?), and that has to come in via ship or train.

Also refining oil into petrol uses approx 5kWh per gallon - that's enough to go 18 miles in a Tesla P85 alone...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 11:14:04 am by tom66 »
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: This is why we should all leave the EU
« Reply #99 on: August 22, 2014, 12:13:41 pm »
Has the EU bothered to regulate LED lighting yet ? I was speaking to the technical director of a UK PCB manufacturer today and he told me that 60% ok UK consumption is on lights and 60% of their work is in lighting. Has the EU legislated yet on new LED's ? The guy was telling me that many installers and designers have move away from chinese stuff because it fails early and is not very efficient, are there regulations ? not as far as i'm aware, halogens are almost as bad as the now banned incandescent and naturally there are plenty of crap CFL's out there that are not as efficient as they claim to be, produce poor lighting and fail early, has the EU legislated on CFL quality ? No but it's worried about a vacuum cleaner that is used a whole lot less................
 


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