UK Customs!

[paulca]

Got a letter today.  From Parcel Force.

Apparently Customs charged me £9.86 VAT on importing 5 PCBs.  Because of this I have to pay parcelforce £11.20 handling fee as well.

Here's the thing.  The PCBs are worth £3.59

Unfortunately my only option is to pay as they are now holding my parcel to ransom.  Only then, when I pay the ransom will they release the parcel and associated documentation to me so I can appeal the charges.

What is the most dishonest thing about this is that "Border Force" have simply just made up a value, randomly, off the top of their heads or out of their arse and slapping it on the package.

So, there is a remote possibility of getting the £9.86 VAT back, but zero chance of getting the £11.20 back.

In the UK the authority ladder goes like this:
You, Your Boss, The police, The government, God, Her Majesties Custom and Excise.

</rant>

[boffin]

Got a letter today.  From Parcel Force.

Apparently Customs charged me £9.86 VAT on importing 5 PCBs.  Because of this I have to pay parcelforce £11.20 handling fee as well.

Here's the thing.  The PCBs are worth £3.59

And get ready for the same thing to happen for shipments from the rest of Europe.

[CJay]

Re-order and abandon that shipment?

[ebastler]

The party to complain to is the shipper.

It seems that they have not attached the required declaration of contents and customs value to the outside of the package. Otherwise, why would customs have had to estimate the value? In my experience, the Chinese vendors have become quite good about this, presumably having learned from prior hassles. So please do reach out to your vendor. (Although I doubt that they would refund you more than the money you paid to them.)

For consolation, see it this way: £3.59 plus £11.20 is still darn cheap for getting 5 PCBs made! I don't even want to remember what I paid for hobby PCBs manufactured in Germany before I figured out about the low-cost vendors... 

[paulca]

Re-order and abandon that shipment?

And wait for 2+ more weeks?

More like  4 or 5.  I ordered this during Chinese spring festival.  I ordered a second one 2 weeks later, it arrived last Thursday, DHL.

Apparently they include the cost of shipping, so the VAT actually owed would be £4.89.  However it says:

[quote link=https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty]
other goods worth more than £15
[/quote]

If that doesn't include shipping, then 0 VAT is due.

I will check the packaging when I recieve it, I have, of course, had to pay the ransom.  If it does not declare it's value I will mention it to the supplier.

All in I have now paid:
$5 for the PCBs.
$29 shipping
£9.86 VAT
£11.20 Handling
£45.51

Still cheaper than the cheapest UK PCB manufacturer for a single board.  I would have had that one 4 or 5 weeks ago though.

[NivagSwerdna]

Ouch!

Who was the supplier?  I would like to avoid them.

[fourtytwo42]

Who are these numbskulls!! I have never paid import duty on pcb's. I have just received a batch of pcb's on my doorstep 8am this morning from an order placed evening time here 5 days ago. Allpcb try them, also free shipping atm
Have a quick go on the online quoter, I think you will be very pleasently suprised.

[paulca]

Allpcb

Nice.  I'll try them next time.  Interestingly they use the same quoting software that PCBWay use.  Wonder if they are the same company, or if there is a company selling PCB online quote software to PCB fabs.

[ebastler]

Apparently they include the cost of shipping, so the VAT actually owed would be £4.89.  However it says:

other goods worth more than £15

If that doesn't include shipping, then 0 VAT is due.

Yes, foreign shipping costs also incur VAT; and I'm afraid they count towards the £15 free limit. (At least that's how it works for us.) So customs and Parcel Force did not overcharge you all that painfully...

The most annoying experience I once had was with a Mouser order from the US. The order volume was above whatever the threshold for free shipping was at the time, and hence Mouser threw in UPS shipping for free. They had attached a customs invoice on the outside of the package, which nicely included a line item for "Shipping: $0".

Which German customs chose to disbelieve.  "UPS shipping is worth more than $0. If no plausible price is declared, we can estimate one. We estimate $30. VAT please!"  -- I spent time on the phone with them, but eventually gave up...

[mikeselectricstuff]

In the UK, the declared goods amount determines whether it is above or below the threshold, but if over, the VAT is on the value plus the shipping cost. 

[paulca]

Nice.  I'll try them next time.  Interestingly they use the same quoting software that PCBWay use.  Wonder if they are the same company, or if there is a company selling PCB online quote software to PCB fabs.

They are different companies with different sales and different fabs, but owned by the same venture investment company.

I thought it was a peoples republic, doesn't that mean that the people own it?

[sleemanj]

I thought it was a peoples republic, doesn't that mean that the people own it?

Ummm... no.

https://www.chinacheckup.com/blogs/articles/company-registration-in-china

[Stray Electron]

 

I thought it was a peoples republic, doesn't that mean that the people own it?

   Where have you been for the last 100 years?  "People's Republic" is code for the government owns everything and people are just tools in their factories. It's not what Marx promised but it's what Trotsky and Stalin delivered and the other People's Republics have just followed along.

[paulca]

I thought it was a peoples republic, doesn't that mean that the people own it?

   Where have you been for the last 100 years?  "People's Republic" is code for the government owns everything and people are just tools in their factories. It's not what Marx promised but it's what Trotsky and Stalin delivered and the other People's Republics have just followed along.

That's what I thought
https://www.boredpanda.com/corporation-economies-explained-cows-ecownomics/

[jmelson]

Yup, I sell items to the UK, and have gotten some back, as they couldn't even bother to inform the recipient that he owed VAT, etc.

Jon

[ovnr]

Tell them to fuck right off and include a copy of the invoice. If it's below the cutoff, there's no VAT or fees due.

[wraper]

If that doesn't include shipping, then 0 VAT is due.

I will check the packaging when I recieve it, I have, of course, had to pay the ransom.  If it does not declare it's value I will mention it to the supplier.

All in I have now paid:
$5 for the PCBs.
$29 shipping
£9.86 VAT
£11.20 Handling
£45.51

Still cheaper than the cheapest UK PCB manufacturer for a single board.  I would have had that one 4 or 5 weeks ago though.

It always includes shipping. If you use anything other than slow mail for shipping, be ready to pay taxes. VAT seem to be overcharged by 2 times, probably they used "statistical" value for shipping cost .

[BravoV]

In the UK the authority ladder goes like this:
You, Your Boss, The police, The government, God, Her Majesties Custom and Excise.

You should respect it, as that top rank of the last item is there for a reason, it has been "sponging" tax for centuries making your country rich and powerful, where pillaged stolen gathered resources and commodities were imported from all over the world during the colonization period. 

[Towger]

The customs declaration must include itemised value of both item and shipping cost.

If is does not, shipping is included or free
They will calculate/estimate values as follows:

Value of item: Pull it out of their arse.

Shipping: Cost of sending item back to country of origin from the point it entered EU. (Using same company who delivered it.)  Now this is the kicker, it is much cheaper to send China to EU by courier than the other way around.  'Free DHL' delivery from China on a $45 item ends up costing as much again in additional VAT.

[CJay]

Re-order and abandon that shipment?

And wait for 2+ more weeks?

Yes, If the boards were for a no deadline hobby project and choice was to pay the charges or abandon then I'd consider re-ordering from elsewhere and letting those boards rot instead of spending the time to try and argue the case with no guarantee of success.

The problem with that approach is that there's also no guarantee that the next supplier wouldn't screw up the same way and land me with another load of customs charges.

If I had a deadline then I'd have not even bothered asking the question and paid the charges (but I'd then question the wisdom of using that supplier for something with a deadline), as someone else pointed out, they're still not that expensive on a per unit basis even taking the charges into account.

[Mr. Scram]

Shipping is probably added to the value, obviously because companies were giving items away for nearly free, charging a lot of shipping instead. It's the same reason eBay calculates their fees over the full amount.

[dexters_lab]

you should always expect to pay VAT + Fees on imported goods and this is always calculated as 20% of value+shipping and then a processing fee on top

...when something slips past and you pay nothing then just take that as a very good win!

[Fred27]

I agree with dexters_lab. Assume the worst. You might get away with it - but assume you won't and then it's all up from there. And don't enter something like Keysight Wave unless you're prepared to potentially pay the VAT on your prize.

I agree it is annoying when the "handling fees" are a large percentage though.

[fourtytwo42]

For the UK I found the exemption rules here https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty
In my case the paperwork on the outside of the box stated value at 18.3USD so under the limit

[Howardlong]

The VAT amount isn’t in line with the item’s value even if shipping is added.

Was the value declared on the package? (I guess you won’t know that until you see it).

The problem I’ve encountered in the past is when trying to contest the amount, you’re pissing in the wind, even if there is a process, which I’ve yet to discover, it’ll be so circuitous and painful that unless you have time on your hands, save yourself the grief and pony up.

ISTR when I wuestioned one, Parcel Force simply referred me to Border Force at Coventry Airport..  you could see where that was going.

[paulca]

The problem I’ve encountered in the past is when trying to contest the amount, you’re pissing in the wind, even if there is a process, which I’ve yet to discover, it’ll be so circuitous and painful that unless you have time on your hands, save yourself the grief and pony up.

I "might" consider filling one of these out and posting it.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-customs-dutyimport-vat-relating-to-imports-by-post-bor286

Of course, you are correct, it will be like pissing in the wind.  If I thought there was a chance of getting the Royal Mail handling fee back it would be worth the time and effort, but it's not really worth it for about £4.VAT back.

[medical-nerd]

Hiya

For the UK I found the exemption rules here https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty
In my case the paperwork on the outside of the box stated value at 18.3USD so under the limit

Unfortunately its not only the declared cost that counts - its declared cost and postage plus VAT at 20%.
So 18.3 USD + 20% =21.96USD = £15.73

The VAT is nowt, its the processing fee that screws you.  = £11.20

So you really have to order items less than £13 with free postage, or a total of £13 including postage to avoid the processing fee once VAT is added.

I order a low cost item first from an overseas supplier to see what they declare it as before ordering something over the £13 limit.

I ordered a small letter shaped parcel from Australia :

https://www.minikits.com.au/eme179.htm   51.50 Australian dollars  = £29.11

So add the $25 charged to send it to me, VAT on the cost plus postage and the processing fee, it came to $111 Australian dollars in total.

So for a kit costing £29 I had to pay a total of £62 - so no more purchases from Australia for me.   

 Cheers

[Mr. Scram]

you should always expect to pay VAT + Fees on imported goods and this is always calculated as 20% of value+shipping and then a processing fee on top

...when something slips past and you pay nothing then just take that as a very good win!

Not if you're below the minimum amount. In that case you should expect to pay nothing.

[medical-nerd]

Hiya

you should always expect to pay VAT + Fees on imported goods and this is always calculated as 20% of value+shipping and then a processing fee on top

...when something slips past and you pay nothing then just take that as a very good win!

Not if you're below the minimum amount. In that case you should expect to pay nothing.

Yup - but they add VAT to the purchase cost plus shipping to see then if you are under the minimum amount, then add a hefty processing fee for pushing some buttons on a calculator if you are just one penny above.

Cheers

[paulca]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-value-your-imports-for-customs-duty-and-trade-statistics

[Lord of nothing]

How about take an Ryanair Flight to BTS and collect the Parcel from my Adress?
Here in Austria normaly you dont need to pay Tax if the Chinese Company declare it as usual with 5$. 
Only the Stupid American declare it rite and I have to pay a lot of Tax. 

[donotdespisethesnake]

Yup - but they add VAT to the purchase cost plus shipping to see then if you are under the minimum amount, then add a hefty processing fee for pushing some buttons on a calculator if you are just one penny above.

That's not what it says on the website. Sounds like you got ripped off too!

[TheDane]

I came across an article a while ago, where the EU anti fraud division had uncovered a massive problem with under-declared imports to the UK.
Perhaps it is the 'system' which is facing financial trouble when leaving the EU

https://ec.europa.eu/anti-fraud/policy/joint-customs-operations/operation-octopus_en

[paulca]

So it arrived.  It has a complete and full EMS declaration on it for the total order value of $34.

So that's about £24.50.  VAT @20% is about £4.90.  They charged me twice that.

So they have obviously assumed the value of goods was $34 and then added shipping on top.  Given the shipping was actually $29 worth of the order.  That would probably add up to £9.86 VAT.

Absolute merchant bankers.

It's not really worth chasing them for £5.  I won't get the £11.20 Parcel Force fee back, but it just urks me somewhat that they can make stuff up to suit themselves.

[Kjelt]

In the UK, the declared goods amount determines whether it is above or below the threshold, but if over, the VAT is on the value plus the shipping cost.

Yes he same here in NL. On shipping costs there is something very fishy in China going on.
You get a nonsense T&T code ending with CN for China then after a week it changes in a DHL T&T code.

I ordered a closed loop stepper motor drive set for $160 +$40 shipping.
I asked the seller to put $40 on the freightbill which he did.
Then the customs saw the freightbill declared vat on the $40 , there was no shipping costs declared.
So customs took the dhl express europe to china shipping pricelist which for this parcel would cost $140 
And declared vat over that as well.
Now how can a company make profit if indeed those dhl express tarifs are correct?
Is the chinese gvt still subsidizing shipping costs? But in these amounts ?
I am puzzled but catch 44 if i show the original transaction the vat would have been the same.

[wraper]

So customs took the dhl express europe to china shipping pricelist which for this parcel would cost $140 

This is BS pricing for reasonably small package even when sent from EU. Maybe if you send as a private person directly, without using shipping broker.

[Lord of nothing]

  I am not from the UK but today I should receive an Parcel with an Value of 180€ we will see if I have to pay Custom fees.