UK Engineer petition

[Alex]

I don't feel it is fair when I see a piece of paper on the broken washbasin saying 'An engineer has been called', but this is not an objective poll. To take it one step further, a petition is the wrong research tool for this issue. There should be some way of seeing how many read it and decided not to sign it. 1322 have signed and counting.

[quantumfall]

I don't feel it is fair when I see a piece of paper on the broken washbasin saying 'An engineer has been called', but this is not an objective poll. To take it one step further, a petition is the wrong research tool for this issue. There should be some way of seeing how many read it and decided not to sign it. 1322 have signed and counting.

I take it you are an Engineer,  I can understand if you feel a maintenance worker is not an "Engineer" and you feel insulted. but its not so bad really.

I would not take it to heart too much there is a lot more to the guys who do this type of work and I know they are mostly very well trained, they need to know a lot about water storage flow rates, minimum temperatures to keep hot water to stop germs breeding and a myriad of other technical knowlege and regulations to uphold.

On large buildings the maintenance guys have very complicated plant to look after Chillers, heat pump systems, sophisticated "Building management systems" and to understand several of these with their foibles is an art in its self.

They also unblock the toilets and fix the sinks, true heroes thats no exaggeration.

They are Engineers in my eyes if not by title. I'm not  trying to put down Engineers with other fields they may be very sophisticated in what they do as well.

These guys are often overlooked as true pros in what they do, like so many people who do jobs that do not get the recognition they deserve.

Of course you do get the few who are bad at what they do or rip people off on costs, but I'm sure that can be said of all services including Engineering services.

[Alex]

I am aware and support all that you said. Engineer has come to mean anyone that fixes or designs anything. By fair I meant that engineer should be indicative of the profession, I did not imply anything about the qualities or skills of the person. So a Plumber would not be an Engineer in the same way you cannot call a pilot a laywer, or a secretary a translator.

Maybe this whole mess boils down to the word engineer not being able to stand on its own. When I say lawyer, you get a very good understanding of what the person does. But when I say Engineer...pfffff....it has to be preceeded by some other title. Electrical installation engineer, rocket propulsion engineer, signal integrity engineer, circuit board layout engineer and so on.

So maybe we should put a petition up to ban the word engineer from being used on its own!

[quantumfall]

I am aware and support all that you said. Engineer has come to mean anyone that fixes or designs anything. By fair I meant that engineer should be indicative of the profession, I did not imply anything about the qualities or skills of the person. So a Plumber would not be an Engineer in the same way you cannot call a pilot a laywer, or a secretary a translator.

Maybe this whole mess boils down to the word engineer not being able to stand on its own. When I say lawyer, you get a very good understanding of what the person does. But when I say Engineer...pfffff....it has to be preceeded by some other title. Electrical installation engineer, rocket propulsion engineer, signal integrity engineer, circuit board layout engineer and so on.

So maybe we should put a petition up to ban the word engineer from being used on its own!

Yes "Engineer" has many meanings. I think, like the 12 year old software wizard who is one .

Unfortnately its a very wide term not suitable to being legalised I would think, no matter how much some feel slighted and I do think I have a feeling of how that can be.

It is now a generic term in the UK I think not an accademic one.

[gregariz]

So maybe we should put a petition up to ban the word engineer from being used on its own!

Its not just a UK thing, although things have come to a head in the UK. A similar petition has been circulating every year or two for the last 5 or 6 years. Its about 100 signatures a day at the moment. There were over 20,000 signatures a year or two ago, but its a political issue really and depends on how much pushback the politicians get from the various trade organizations. As a result of the lack of political will, moves have been made behind the scenes to raise the qualification levels around the world so the UK 4 year MEng may be a thing of the past in a few years as it would no longer satisfy the educational requirements. Part of this is recognition by the societies themselves that, as many technicians point out, they know in many cases as much as the graduates on some issues. On top of that members have been upset that wage levels have been getting dragged down. In the US there have been some similar moves to get the industrial exemption lifted so companies just can't call anyone an engineer, but again that will be political. I personally think that's the wrong way to go but unless the engineering council goes along with it they will find their members recognition will not be transferrable overseas. That may not mean much in this field but UK civil engineers will be screaming if that happens. We've just been through the last 20 years of very relaxed and easy entry into the profession. I expect in the next 5 we will see a reversion back to the 80's.

[EEVblog]

I hate it when people with a doctorate in engineering or whatever call themselves "Doctor" all the time, it's just stupid.
Joe Bloggs PhD = Fine
Dr Joe Bloggs = Dickhead

Or maybe they're from some countries that use Dr instead of PhD. But please be a stereotypical American and don't let knowledge from other cultures stop you from calling names.

I don't give a rats arse what they do in other countries, they can do whatever they like, and likewise I don't give a rats arse what wikipedia says.
As far as I'm concerned, calling yourself a "Doctor" in our field when you just have a PhD in something is being a wanker. That's called an opinion, and it's a not uncommon one in Australia, particularly in our field.

Dave.

[EEVblog]

I'm  sure EEVblog's not American.

Let me watch all my videos again... DANG! I think I sound like an Australian! 

The point I think he is making I stand to be corrected if not is,  that its ONLY a qualification and some people use it as a status thing (They need the boost to their
worth) and others find that annoying.

Correct.
That, and the fact that it is very deliberately confusing with medical practitioners, and I find that just plain stupid.
And I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't be using it if the word doctor wasn't held in such high regard because of medical practitioners.

Dave.

[EEVblog]

I don't feel it is fair when I see a piece of paper on the broken washbasin saying 'An engineer has been called', but this is not an objective poll. To take it one step further, a petition is the wrong research tool for this issue. There should be some way of seeing how many read it and decided not to sign it. 1322 have signed and counting.

I take it you are an Engineer,  I can understand if you feel a maintenance worker is not an "Engineer" and you feel insulted. but its not so bad really.

I would not take it to heart too much there is a lot more to the guys who do this type of work and I know they are mostly very well trained, they need to know a lot about water storage flow rates, minimum temperatures to keep hot water to stop germs breeding and a myriad of other technical knowlege and regulations to uphold.

On large buildings the maintenance guys have very complicated plant to look after Chillers, heat pump systems, sophisticated "Building management systems" and to understand several of these with their foibles is an art in its self.

They also unblock the toilets and fix the sinks, true heroes thats no exaggeration.

They are Engineers in my eyes if not by title. I'm not  trying to put down Engineers with other fields they may be very sophisticated in what they do as well.

These guys are often overlooked as true pros in what they do, like so many people who do jobs that do not get the recognition they deserve.

Of course you do get the few who are bad at what they do or rip people off on costs, but I'm sure that can be said of all services including Engineering services.

There are so many variations on engineering, and the use and worthiness of the title, that it's just silly to even talk about trying to restrict it.
Perhaps there are countless construction engineers out there that build massive skyscrapers and what-not that look down upon us nerds tinkering with electronics and that take 2 years to build a chip that's 10 square millimeters, as not being worthy of the title.
Or maybe there are steam train engineers that think we are all unworthy...

Dave.

[Alex]

[don.r]

I always preferred the title Applied Scientist since that is what (one of) my degree tells me I am anyways. 

University degrees are simply a filtering tool used by those who have neither the time nor the resources to test everyone's ability, especially in cases where liability may apply.

I know many structural engineers that marvel at their iPhones: same problems, different scales.

Plumbers generally make more money than university degreed engineers. I would be honoured to be mistaken for one as my plumbing work sucks.

[Uncle Vernon]

That's terrible!!

A competent engineer would have revised the note to "A plumber", not "An plumber". 

[alm]

A competent engineer has good communication and language skills?

[gregariz]

almost 5000.... + new prize available...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15770648

[McPete]

This is an interesting discussion, from someone who hasn't got a degree, does engineering work...

I read a lot of job adverts, and I see some recuitment companies almost universally ask for Degrees, often specifying they'd prefer someone with their Honours (1st class of course...), Masters or Doctorate. I read the descriptions and wonder, if I'd even pass the first look...

It makes me wonder if my Advance Diploma (Associate) is really worth any more than a trade certificate! As I'm going through the process of getting my qualification, I'm not sure if I want to continue on and get my Bachelor's, but at the same time I seem to be witnessing the paraprofessional qual. I'm working on being made redundant.

Do any other Australian engineering types think we're seeing the slow death of the paraprofessional engineer?

[gregariz]

This is an interesting discussion, from someone who hasn't got a degree, does engineering work...

I read a lot of job adverts, and I see some recuitment companies almost universally ask for Degrees, often specifying they'd prefer someone with their Honours (1st class of course...), Masters or Doctorate. I read the descriptions and wonder, if I'd even pass the first look...

It makes me wonder if my Advance Diploma (Associate) is really worth any more than a trade certificate! As I'm going through the process of getting my qualification, I'm not sure if I want to continue on and get my Bachelor's, but at the same time I seem to be witnessing the paraprofessional qual. I'm working on being made redundant.

Do any other Australian engineering types think we're seeing the slow death of the paraprofessional engineer?

I'm going to sound like an old man for a moment, but once upon a time in Australia, the public service had classifications of Administrative (APS 1-6), Technical Officer (TO1-4), Professional Officer (1-2), a trades level (I forget the designation) and a few others. Most high school leavers who got a clerical job went in at an APS level. Most apprenticeship holders went into the trades level. Most of the paraprofessionals were called technical officers in those days and went into the TO roles. Graduate engineers wend into professional officer classifications.

So back then there was a clear difference between tradesman and technical officers (paraprofessionals) and professional officers (engineers). It would appear that sometime in the last 10 or 15 years that the classifications have been reduced to just APS levels plus a few funny seniour ones.

The requirement for getting a TO level job was to hold what was called an "Associate Diploma" or equivalent. Sometime around the early to mid-90's things started to get confusing. Up until about 1990-1992 or thereabouts there was a system of non-university "institutes of technology" or "colleges of advanced education". These gave out degrees and what was also called university diploma's. These 3 year university diploma's were generally regarded as somewhat equivalent to a degree, albeit a more vocational course. For example alot of music courses at uni's, IT's and CAE's were called 'diploma's' as these were generally more vocational courses than theoretical. Going back even further to about 1980, these 3 year diploma's were acceptable for admission to the institute of engineers as graduate engineers but they changed the rules around then to require a degree.

Things get complicated after the early 90's timeframe because all the IH's and CAE's more or less simply changed their names to become universities. Most of the university diploma's also more or less changed names to become bachelor degrees. It wasnt long there after that TAFE colleges then started to introduce their own '2 year diploma's' and advanced diploma's and phase out what was called the 'Associate Diploma'. Many TAFE's also started to call themselves "Institutes of Technology". See a downward trend here? Its worth noting that some universities also ran Associate diploma's up until that time and it wasn't long before they changed their course titles to be things like "Associate Degree" - See uni of southern qld.

In the private sector of course people have only really made the distinction between 'engineer' and 'technician'. Every now and then you would run across a Associate Diploma grad who had proven himself to his company and was titled an engineer but generally they were all Bachelor grads, or 'old diploma' holders.

During this time I was an Associate Diploma holder and a TO. It was simply not possible to call yourself an engineer and it was impossible to get a job in the public service as an engineer. There were TO's working in design but we used to call them design technicians or engineering technical officers. They were not engineers. I wanted to be an engineer so I went back to uni - simple as that, it ended up taking me longer but it has done me good. I suspect the call for TO's and paraprofessionals has dropped off as the general decline of engineering in Australia has progressed. As a result you are probably rightly concerned that while you have studied more than the tradesman, that slot that you would have filled in industry has declined - just look at the APS job board today there seem to be very few openings. But the same is true of engineering grad's. Some TO's have moved into trades work, others are attempting to sell themselves as engineers. The dichotomy however is that as the market for TO's has decreased so has it for the PO's or engineers. There's always been friction between TO's and PO's but I think its greater now than before. I know a number of engineers who ended up becoming electricians. Many feel they don't do design work anymore. As a result you get things like this petition. I notice you call yourself a apprentice - engineer and I would be interested if Tafe are now telling Advanced Diploma holders that the course will make you that?

You should look at it on the bright side. Back then uni's were somewhat more elitist than they are today. It was really hard to get any type of advanced standing back then towards a degree even if you had a 2 year Associate diploma from the same uni as the degree course. Today there are all sorts of articulated options including pathways into 3 year engineering technology degrees that articulate into the 4 year degree. Its never been easier.

[vk6zgo]

Of course, the PMG's Dept/Telecom Australia went their own way.

Way back when,there were "5 year trained Techs",who went to the PMG Training School for part of their training,& into the field for the rest.
There were also people who came in from outside who passed the Technician's Exam--I was one of them.
Passing this exam put you at the same level as the 5 year people,so the next step up the ladder was the "Senior Tech's Exam".

Strangely enough,the external exams which the PMG operated ,such as the "Broadcast Operator's Certificate of Proficiency",which were
required in the Private Sector for jobs looking after Radio Transmitters were not accepted,or necessary within the Department.

The Tech/Senior Tech progression was extremely rigorous,& produced some extremely well trained people.

That was the situation when Telecom Aust was formed.
The Tech/Senior Techs believed that they were working at a level higher than the usual Tradesman in the Private Sector,& began agitating for "Sub-Professional status".
This came,with the Senior Techs becoming Tech Officers (TO1),the existing Techs having to pass a new,& even tougher TO's Exam to get further up the ladder.

The 5 year courses were replaced by a shorter course to the position of "Telecom Tradesman",& a new Diploma course to produce  TO1s from scratch instituted.

The idea was Techs would eventually disappear,as they all upgraded.
It didn't work,however,with the Tradesmen wanting the "more prestigious" label of Technician,& not enough Techs passing the exam.
So they made the Tradesmen Techs,& introduced a "Bridging Training Scheme" so Techs could become TO1s.(I was one of these"retreads").

A few years later,they changed it all over again!!!--But by that time,I was working for the Seven Network.

In Broadcasting & TV the qualifications were pretty clearcut:-

The "Broadcast Operator's Certificate of Proficiency" (BOCP) allowed you to perform technical work in  Broadcast Transmitters & Studios

The "Television Operator's Certificate of Proficiency" (TVOCP) allowed you to perform technical work in  TV Transmitters & Studios.

The BOCP was a prerequisite for the TVOCP.

(The Chief Engineer of a station may or may not have had a degree!)

About that time,the licencing authority of the time passed off these qualifications to TAFE,who made an unholy mess of it!

Eventually both these requirements became redundant,with the individual station determining if the person could do the job.

There are many excellent Techs who never had the chance to pass these exams,but there are also some who are  not so good!

Large organisations,such as Telecom,OTC,DOA,& the various  broadcasting organisations were the backbone of Electronics training over the previous years,but the "suits" couldn't see much advantage in it,so it has been allowed to "die on the vine".


VK6ZGO





 

[gregariz]

Large organisations,such as Telecom,OTC,DOA,& the various  broadcasting organisations were the backbone of Electronics training over the previous years,but the "suits" couldn't see much advantage in it,so it has been allowed to "die on the vine".
VK6ZGO

I call the 90's the decade of destruction... I was doing my Associate Diploma and in between years had been interviewed at OTC and Honeywell.. thinking that I may change over to their 4 year cadetship program. By the end of the year (~1991) honeywell had told me they were discontinuing it and it wasnt long after that OTC announced they were being split off? Telecom was already well in trouble. My best mates dad was a Telecom tech and all I heard was they were downsizing and hemoraging tech's left and right. About that time AWA self destructed. Then we had that wonderful recession. A bit later I was sitting on a job as a TO working with some contracted engineers who came in to install a microwave system. And their jobs kind of looked cool.. so I went back to uni the next year, just down the road from them actually... when I came out they had already gone belly up. It became a pretty sad set of affairs really.. I left and went back to the UK, did a grad course and various other places before ending up in the US. I've heard all sorts of things from my Assoc Dip buddy TO's over the years... some joined the defence force.. one even ended up selling frozen chickens. If I was still a TO I have no idea of where I would have ended up.

[Alex]

A competent engineer would have revised the note to "A plumber", not "An plumber". 

...and an even more competent one would decide that doing so wastes more value in ink than it adds grammatically.  We can do this all day!

Sometime around the early to mid-90's things started to get confusing. Up until about 1990-1992 or thereabouts there was a system of non-university "institutes of technology" or "colleges of advanced education". These gave out degrees and what was also called university diploma's. These 3 year university diploma's were generally regarded as somewhat equivalent to a degree, albeit a more vocational course.

I believe this is related to the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 according to which the polytechnics in the UK were able to award their own degrees like universities do. Could this be the same thing with Australia being a UK commonwealth country? This 'universitisation' made the UK into a higher education hotspot, attracting vast numbers of students from Europe and Asia.

A competent engineer has good communication and language skills?

You are in for a surprise...! Surprise! 

[gregariz]

I believe this is related to the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 according to which the polytechnics in the UK were able to award their own degrees like universities do. Could this be the same thing with Australia being a UK commonwealth country? This 'universitisation' made the UK into a higher education hotspot, attracting vast numbers of students from Europe and Asia.

The UK was first at it IIRC however I think Australia was looking at the situation and realizing the value. I think there would be little doubt that foreign student numbers ballooned after the changes happened. If you are not familiar the Australian system is based on the Scottish system with 3 year bachelor + 1 year honours. If memory serves the old university diploma was often ok for admission to the 4th honours year. The TAFE (vocational/community college) system that awards diploma's today are not close to that - but thats a separate discussion. They didnt call them poly's in Aust but they all had names like 'college of advanced education', 'institutes of higher education', 'institutes of technology'. There were also similiar 'Teachers colleges' and 'nursing colleges'. Most (maybe not the teachers/nurse) had been awarding degrees since their founding, usually in the 60's or 70's. Many of them were awarding Masters degrees, and some of them like the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology was very well regarded, giving out PhD's and well up there in terms of reputation with the Universities. So well regarded RMIT decided to keep its IT title until today but around that time simply tacked university on the end to become RMIT uni. Almost all the others changed their names to become uni's or were merged with other uni's. There were other politics involved as well. The older universities were (probably still are) receiving alot of the government research moneys and that upset some of those in the CAE's who were pushing for greater funding - so I'm sure the move to uni's was partly driven by the desire to get a bigger piece of the research pie. It didn't always work out that way though as I did my assoc dip at a CAE and when the system changed it was only a few years after some of the staff that had taught me were pushed out (they only had bachelor or masters) to make room for the new influx of PhD's. This has resulted in their own problems. I remember some politician complaining in a rare PR slip a few years back that the nurses (who now all given degrees) no longer want to hold the 'chunder bucket'. I guess the discussion of the PhD only faculty now has similiar criticisms but that is another discussion.

[steaky1212]

Scotty is an engineer, the guy that fits a satellite dish is not.

it might be elitist, but when someone finds out I am an engineer I always get questions about cars making a knocking sound, picture being fuzzy on tv - generally stuff being on the blink.
then I explain I'm an electronic engineer - "oh like an electrician"
ffs... erm.. I work in R&D

[Rufus]

it might be elitist, but when someone finds out I am an engineer I always get questions about cars making a knocking sound, picture being fuzzy on tv - generally stuff being on the blink.

Try telling people what you do, let them worry about what to call you.

[Uncle Vernon]

...and an even more competent one would decide that doing so wastes more value in ink than it adds grammatically.  We can do this all day!

If a person is happy to be identified as a "near enough, is good enough type", something that is not a good reflection of competence or ability.  Precise and legible communication is an essential skill for any good engineer or professional.

[McPete]

I'm going to sound like an old man for a moment, but once upon a time in Australia, the public service had classifications of Administrative (APS 1-6), Technical Officer (TO1-4), Professional Officer (1-2), a trades level (I forget the designation) and a few others. Most high school leavers who got a clerical job went in at an APS level. Most apprenticeship holders went into the trades level. Most of the paraprofessionals were called technical officers in those days and went into the TO roles. Graduate engineers wend into professional officer classifications.

(SNIP)

 I notice you call yourself a apprentice - engineer and I would be interested if Tafe are now telling Advanced Diploma holders that the course will make you that?

I actually work for the ANU- as a Trainee Technical Officer! I'm just wondering aloud if anyone besides my current supervisor actually gives a rats about my qualifcation!

The "Apprentice-Engineer" thing is more to to with my background, and where I'd like to be in the future. I've done an Instrumentation and Control trade (cert. III), now doing a traineeship... After that, if I'm contemplating doing a Bachelor's of Engineering. CIT don't actually give us a title. The term bandied around most is "technician".

I find myself, day to day, repairing scientific equipment, ranging from heater stirrers, to centrifuges and mass spectrometers, plus design work for researchers- Quite often on very strange designs.

[steaky1212]

Try telling people what you do, let them worry about what to call you.

Rufus, I tried doing that - but all I get is blank stares. Its like "wait - people actually design those" as if stuff just happens by magic or "I have no idea what one of those is".
Fortunately here I can say i design rj45 jacks and people instantly know what Im talking about. SNMP enabled environmental monitoring kit is mostly understood, and intelligent infrastructure management is rarely.
I am sure everyone gets the same problems.