UK forum members, BREXIT?

[System Error Message]

For christians just because the old testament had a lot of violence do you christians going about and actually perfoming them in the modern age?

You should watch robert spencer's videos, he calls for an islamic reform, that there are many variances and conflicts. The main question is how do you want to follow your religion. Do you want to follow it in a barbaric way or in a civilised and more scientific/understandable way?

[dannyf]

you havent met people with low IQ.

don't be so sure.

[dannyf]

For christians just because the old testament had a lot of violence do you christians going about and actually perfoming them in the modern age?

Isn't that the fundamental issue here? Some people insist on practicing their religions the way it was 1000s of years ago, and they insist that we either follow them or be eliminated.

And then you have their little helpers who want us to be tolerant to such intolerance.

[System Error Message]

For christians just because the old testament had a lot of violence do you christians going about and actually perfoming them in the modern age?

Isn't that the fundamental issue here? Some people insist on practicing their religions the way it was 1000s of years ago, and they insist that we either follow them or be eliminated.

And then you have their little helpers who want us to be tolerant to such intolerance.

In other words the problem is with the people so it goes back to an issue of race rather than religion. The human factor.

[Delta]

you cannot take the beliefs of a handful of people and claim that those stand far a majority.  There are as many interpretations of a religion as there are followers

But I can take them calling themselves Sunni at face value and expect them to mostly agree with Bukhari on the validity of Hadith and to mostly follow one of the four madhhab.

here's a clue: unless you have asked every single one - you don't know.

I do know the opinion of its Imam on Ahmadis. There have been quite a few surveys of British Muslims opinions in general, most not very nice.

Here is a Salafi laying out the truth for you in Norway, he's not interested in hiding it because he believes his correctness and victory is already divinely assured. Listen and learn.

 

That should be compulsory viewing for those who fail to grasp that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with modern western civilisation.

At least muslims like that are honest; that is the bullshit they believe, and they aren't afraid to say it.

[xrunner]

Damn my portfolio is taking a big hit right now - thanks a lot Brexit. 

[dannyf]

In other words the problem is with the people so it goes back to an issue of race rather than religion.

You couldn't have been more off. The problem is with intolerance. It is with people who kill you just because you have the wrong religion; who call you a racist because you exercise your constitutional rights; who want to prosecute you because you want to learn more about global warming; ....

It is about them wanting to impose their value system on to you and me.

Such people come from all races and all classes and many of them are well educated.

[jitter]

I would like to put forth this proposition:
We as EU members should respect the English desire to leave the EU. But one of the conditions should be if the Welsh and/or the Scottisch should choose to remain part of the EU, the English must agree to that, even if that were to mean the end of the UK.

Would you agree that's only fair?

[dannyf]

Would you agree that's only fair?

That would be fair if it were part of the pack with the UK when they joined. Otherwise, no.

[chris_leyson]

I would like to put forth this proposition:
We as EU members should respect the English desire to leave the EU. But one of the conditions should be if the Welsh and/or the Scottisch should choose to remain part of the EU, the English must agree to that, even if that were to hmean the end of the UK.

I'm not surprised by the Welsh vote to leave, traditionally Labour voters, but I think the Labour party has lost touch with the electorate and some of the vote has shifted to UKIP. I heard Jeremy Corbyn blaming Margaret Thatcher for the demise of heavy industry, he's definitely out of touch, it was the unions demanding silly money. The unions led to the demise of heavy industry not Margaret Thatcher. British steel became Chorus in 1999 and was sold to Tata steel in 2007, under Tony Blairs Labour government. I think disillusion combined with immigration swung the Welsh vote.
Scotland have voted by an overwhelming majority to stay in the EU and now Nicola Sturgeon is calling for another independance vote, who can blame her. Northern Ireland have voted to stay in the EU and who can blame them, border issues perhaps, I can't speak for the Scots or Irish. The United Kingdom is not so united. We'll see time will tell.

[System Error Message]

In other words the problem is with the people so it goes back to an issue of race rather than religion.

You couldn't have been more off. The problem is with intolerance. It is with people who kill you just because you have the wrong religion; who call you a racist because you exercise your constitutional rights; who want to prosecute you because you want to learn more about global warming; ....

It is about them wanting to impose their value system on to you and me.

Such people come from all races and all classes and many of them are well educated.

Well than why not do something fun. Go to them and ask them if they want to kill you just because you dont accept Islam. It will make them doubt and actually go back and study religion. Give them some relevant sources to read. In that video, ask everyone in the room. They will start doubting things.

The problem is that people like those imams in the video are dillusional and spreading it to others. Do you even have muslim friends? Show them the video and ask them.

[Delta]

"Scotland" didn't vote to remain, nor did "Northern Ireland".  "Wales" didn't vote to leave, nor did "England".

The United Kingdom voted to leave, and that it that.

[Howardlong]

Frankly I think this whole result is due to simple bigotry whether amongst the educated or not...

Frankly, I think you are incredibly arrogant and condescending.  The view that you epitomise is the reason why so many  people feel frustrated with and alienated from our professional politicians.

I'd agree with that, in fact the constant lazy ad hominem non sequitur accusations such as this backfired as far as I'm concerned, it actually showed how little the accuser knew, as well as how pejorative and prejudging they are, which is rather ironic!

If the same amount of effort had been made into presenting the positive benefits are of being in the EU, for example how the stated aims of increased federalism, fiscal unity and expansion into seemingly fiscally incompatible states, benefits both the UK and the Union as a whole, then the result would have been different. But voters can only assume that because those things weren't addressed, there is no benefit.

[MT]

According to Yougov, 75% in age of 18–24 vote remain while 59% over 65 vote for leave! So now grand children are mighty pissed!

[nctnico]

I'm not surprised by the Welsh vote to leave, traditionally Labour voters, but I think the Labour party has lost touch with the electorate and some of the vote has shifted to UKIP. I heard Jeremy Corbyn blaming Margaret Thatcher for the demise of heavy industry, he's definitely out of touch, it was the unions demanding silly money. The unions led to the demise of heavy industry not Margaret Thatcher.

IMHO the market led to the demise of heavy industry since the 19070's. In the NL there is very little heavy industry left and the steel industry (also owned by Corus and now Tata) is more involved in high quality stuff for the automotive industry than just churning out large chunks of iron. All in all it is foolish to believe that heavy industry will return in the west part of Europe. It is just too expensive but it also shows that education is more important than ever to enable people to get a job.

[dannyf]

The problem is that people like those imams in the video are dillusional and spreading it to others.

the imams (or the speakers) aren't the problems at all. There are always nutjobs in every people and every religion. They are not scary at all.

What is scary is the audience. Or more precisely, the overwhelming agreement between the audience and the imams.

You cannot separate islam from its practitioners. You cannot say "well, Islam is the religion of the peach" and at the same time have its practitioners beheading people left and right for tiny dissents.

Every religion has its dark past. Every other major religion and its practitioners have found a way to coexist with others, have found a way to reconcile their religious teachings to reality.

Those guys haven't.

[chris_leyson]

IMHO the market led to the demise of heavy industry since the 19070's. In the NL there is very little heavy industry left and the steel industry (also owned by Corus and now Tata) is more involved in high quality stuff for the automotive industry than just churning out large chunks of iron.

I think Llanwern is or was a specialist strip mill, but a lack of investment and no abillity to adapt to changing markets equals a dead industry. Port Talbot just churning out big lumps of steel that you could ship from China. I've been watching the electrification of the Great Western rail line, and thinking where is all this steel coming from. The Welsh government spent £130 million building a factory complex for LG, that never happened but at least LG agreed to pay half of the money back. I think there is a Siemens semiconductor plant somewhere that also never happened.

Totally agree on the education thing, the last time I went to Cardiff library looking for "engineering" books I noticed that there was a bigger book section on f**ing witchcraft, WTF, what morons run this libray no wonder this country is in such a mess. It's gone well past the work ethic thing, now you don't even want to learn usefull skills. Rant over.

[Howardlong]

According to Yougov, 75% in age of 18–24 vote remain while 59% over 65 vote for leave! So now grand children are mighty pissed!

Actually a very few people on my FB feed have seriously been suggesting that older people should not have been allowed to vote. At that stage, I remind them of the similarity to denying votes to women, or apartheid, and the irony of them supposedly supporting EU inclusivity and egalitarianism.

[daqq]

The official punishment for gays in islam is imprisonment, not death so he is going too far.

Oh, well that's OK then. And here I was worried. Very progressive!

...So... does imprisonment un-gay people, or something?

[System Error Message]

According to Yougov, 75% in age of 18–24 vote remain while 59% over 65 vote for leave! So now grand children are mighty pissed!

Actually a very few people on my FB feed have seriously been suggesting that older people should not have been allowed to vote. At that stage, I remind them of the similarity to denying votes to women, or apartheid, and the irony of them supposedly supporting EU inclusivity and egalitarianism.

Does anyone remember the top gear segment about rail safety? Its a democracy so even if someone is insane, irrational,delusional, misinformed or even emo they still will be allowed to vote.

[nctnico]

IMHO the market led to the demise of heavy industry since the 19070's. In the NL there is very little heavy industry left and the steel industry (also owned by Corus and now Tata) is more involved in high quality stuff for the automotive industry than just churning out large chunks of iron.

I think Llanwern is or was a specialist strip mill, but a lack of investment and no abillity to adapt to changing markets equals a dead industry. Port Talbot just churning out big lumps of steel that you could ship from China. I've been watching the electrification of the Great Western rail line, and thinking where is all this steel coming from. The Welsh government spent £130 million building a factory complex for LG, that never happened but at least LG agreed to pay half of the money back. I think there is a Siemens semiconductor plant somewhere that also never happened.

Unfortunately the BBC keeps feeding the people in the UK rubbish on how great the UK is for heavy industry by programmes like the 'How to build' series ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017lyld ). If you look at the episodes you'll notice how few people there are on the work floor and how much of the work is automated. From a technical point of few the series is very interesting but IMHO there is too much 'give yourself a pad on the shoulder because you are Brittish' going on.

[Macbeth]

The official punishment for gays in islam is imprisonment, not death so he is going too far.

Oh, well that's OK then. And here I was worried. Very progressive!

...So... does imprisonment un-gay people, or something?

I would be very surprised that imprisonment is the official islamic punishment for being gay. I mean Islam is a nomadic desert arabs cult. Chopping thieves hands off (and the right hand at that - the eating hand, not the wiping shit from arse hand) was probably considered very enlightened compared to outright murder back in 700AD. I'm pretty sure the camel trekking nomads did not have prisons in the desert to house gays in.

[kaz911]

The official punishment for gays in islam is imprisonment, not death so he is going too far.

Oh, well that's OK then. And here I was worried. Very progressive!

...So... does imprisonment un-gay people, or something?

The punishment is different from one Islamic state to the other. But prison is absolutely one of the milder punishments for being gay. More normal is lashings and jail.

And it does not help - there are MANY people in the ME who are gay. Some of it stems from culture where male rape is used to show dominance over a perceived lower ranking individual - while others are more like the western gays. Many of the western style gays are easy to spot even in dishdasha/kandura/thawb (the robe).

But like all kinds of crime in the ME - you are only punished if you are found out. And by found out - it has to be glaring obvious that something wrong is going on (like caught in the act) - else the police usually turns the blind eye to it. But if you get caught drinking with a few naked guys in your apartment - and the neighbors complain so police are called - then the big hammer falls fast and swift. And then you get punished for every big and small offence they can find.

Lots of expats (and Muslims) drive intoxicated in the ME. But usually if nothing has happened - police will just escort you home with a little polite warning (with you still driving your own car if at all capable) - but if you did a tiny fender bender while intoxicated  - the same offence will fx. in the UAE land you in jail right away for 30 days for being drunk + what ever else they figure out while they research you.

[dannyf]

Actually a very few people on my FB feed have seriously been suggesting that older people should not have been allowed to vote.

Doesn't sound being well educated has done those people much good,

Nor does hundreds of years of "enlightenment" in europe. Those people sound downright barbaric to me, especially for being well educated.

[continuo]

Just to cheer you up on a sad day 

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/british-lose-right-to-claim-that-americans-are-dumber