WARNING !! Faulty Laptop Batteries...

[GlennSprigg]

One of my main Laptops, (that I actually love!), is an Acer Aspire R7 571 and recently it wouldn't power-up.
Even with the power-cord attached, and the LED's showing power attached, & turned on. (More on that LATER!).
Disassembly, (yep... with a long flat internal battery), soon revealed the problem with the battery-bank. Photo...
https://imgur.com/a/OsuHLuH
The original, which was a Lithium-Ion (which is typical/ok generally), was bulging badly & about to burst!!!
This Laptop was brand new, about 2+1/2 to 3 years ago. Generally, I leave the power-supply plugged in and
turned on all the time. I'm not sure if this should/could cause a charging problem though ??
The replacement Pack, (obtained from Interstate here in Australia), is actually a Lithium-Polymer type.

Researching on the Net, revealed that the Lithium-Ion packs can suffer from this, like some SmartPhones have.
Where-as the Lithium-Polymer packs do not!!?? However, they also say that Lithium-Polymer has slightly less
'grunt' and can often cost more. If so, then I would RATHER that ! 

Anyway, to finish off as a side-note, from my 1st paragraph, I was thankful for YouTube before Re-Assembly !!
The battery-pack has additional sensors inside, and the MotherBoard has some nefarious(?) functions that
no-one can explain, whereby you can NOT just put a new battery in and power it up !?
Firstly, there is a microswitch on the MotherBoard that has to be pressed for 4 secs afterwards, with the
power-cord unplugged, and then the Laptop UNTOUCHED/operated/plugged-in for up to 20 minutes...
THEN, (usually) upon 1st powering up,  you have to press the Power-On button and hold it, for at least 45
seconds. Upon releasing it, it will either start up straight away, or after another brief press...
Evidently, it's been the Bane of many a confused & frustrated owner !!!   

[Nusa]

The full name would be "lithium-ion polymer battery". Which subset or abbreviation of those words gets used depends on the writer. Your original battery was probably of this type as well, since virtually all flexible pouch-type cells are.

[janoc]

Lithium-polymer is the same chemistry as Lithium-ion, it is typically a misnomer meant to denote these flexible pouch cells (as opposed to e.g. 18650 cells).

There exists a type of battery with an actual polymer electrolyte but those are quite rare.

[wraper]

Read what's actually written on batteries. Both of them are lithium polymer.

[james_s]

It's quite common for these to bulge, especially if they are overcharged or over-discharged. It can also happen if they are overheated, one of the guys I occasionally fly RC airplanes with left a battery on the seat of his car on a hot day and it puffed up like a balloon.

[janoc]

It will also happen with age - the chemistry produces oxygen gas which will accumulate over time. That's why an old battery that doesn't maintain charge anymore is typically swollen as well. Then it only takes an ignition source (e.g. a small internal short) and the thing goes BOOM.

OP's 3 years old "brand new" laptop could easily reach this part of the battery life if the machine was used on battery regularly. LiPos have lifetime of only about 500 charge/discharge cycles which is easily achievable in 3 years (depends on usage, of course - if the laptop is all the time on AC then the battery gets little use and can last a very long time).

[cdev]

Do they explode? A few years ago I had a laptop battery that expanded like that and when doing research on what was happening I saw several stories about them literally exploding on people. Luckily nobody that I read about was killed, but it seems there is a very serious fire risk.

This is the #1 reason electronics using people should both take care to not try to keep recharging these old batteries and also have a fire alarm in their home, one thats in good working order.

[timgiles]

So BS, they do explode or they dont?

[janoc]

Do they explode? A few years ago I had a laptop battery that expanded like that and when doing research on what was happening I saw several stories about them literally exploding on people. Luckily nobody that I read about was killed, but it seems there is a very serious fire risk.

This is the #1 reason electronics using people should both take care to not try to keep recharging these old batteries and also have a fire alarm in their home, one thats in good working order.

Explode (as in detonation) by itself not really but it can burst and catch on fire. Lithium has a nasty nasty property that it will burn easily when exposed to air or water (plus it generates hydrogen when in contact water - that can explode). So such fires can be pretty dangerous because pouring water on it will only make things worse and it generates its own oxygen so it is difficult to smother it out.

You can find videos like this:
https://youtu.be/gz3hCqjk4yc?t=40

There is looks like the battery has exploded but it was both swollen due to intentional overcharging and the guy has damaged it - that causes an internal short, lots of current will flow, things get very hot and the battery will ignite and burst, shooting flames out. If you don't damage it mechanically it won't fail with a fireball like that, at worst it will burst and burn - like the many videos of laptop battery fires.



If the battery is swollen, certainly do not attempt to charge it again and dispose of it safely.

EDIT: Removed the metallic lithium mention, apparently I am bit behind the times - the first lithium batteries did, in fact, use metallic lithium electrodes, today it is more lithium oxide which doesn't ignite in contact with water. However, the electrolyte is flammable and when the battery shorts out/fails, the resulting thermal runaway will ignite it.

[digsys]

Can anyone tell if my EV batteries are suffering this phenomenon? I seem to only get a few Km now.

[cdev]

Ouch!

[Halcyon]

As much as you like Acer, their gear is pretty bottom of the barrel stuff.

I have an Acer Chromebook 720 right next to me at the moment with exactly the same problem.

[Halcyon]

As much as you like Acer, their gear is pretty bottom of the barrel stuff.

I have an Acer Chromebook 720 right next to me at the moment with exactly the same problem.

Aspire is the cheap one. Predator and Swift are top of the line gaming laptops and Ultrabooks.

Yes but their "top of the line" isn't industry "top of the line".

I've used their enterprise workstations as well and they aren't great compared to what HP and Dell are doing.

[james_s]

The amount of metallic lithium in a li-ion cell is negligible. The fire is not from burning lithium but from flammable electrolyte vaporized by the self heating of the battery when a short occurs.

These shorts can be caused by mechanical damage or a manufacturing defect, as well as material building up on the electrodes , when the cell is overcharged they can get thick enough to puncture the thin separators. Puffing is not really a cause of fire but one of several symptoms of a damaged or degraded cell.

[amyk]

In technical contexts, there is a difference between explosion and "vent with flame". To the non-technical person, there is not much of a difference. The former throws shrapnel everywhere, the latter is more like a gas torch.

Bulging is often caused by exceeding the voltage or current limits. Fire is rare, even when the cells are punctured, unless the deformation or puncturing object causes a short. In fact bulging tends to delaminate the electrodes, reducing capacity and active plate area, and thus also short-circuit current.

[james_s]

The only times I've seen LiPo fires were charging accidents and crashes. The charging accidents are more common than they ought to be, usually caused by defective or improperly configured chargers that allow one or more cells to over-charge. If you keep on charging a LiPo the voltage will keep rising and eventually it *will* catch fire.

[tooki]

Lithium-polymer is the same chemistry as Lithium-ion, it is typically a misnomer meant to denote these flexible pouch cells (as opposed to e.g. 18650 cells).

There exists a type of battery with an actual polymer electrolyte but those are quite rare.

Indeed, when non-cylindrical Li-ion batteries came out, they were called “prismatic” cells (some were in plastic or metal boxes, others were the pouches). The terminology has become really mushy, since people use the terms variously to mean different things, erroneously believing their narrow definitions to be the sole correct ones... :/

[kerouanton]

Same issue with my old MacBook Air 11''. I stored for a few months since I had my new Macbook Pro, and when I retrieved it from the closet, the batteries had inflated, and literally torn apart the aluminium case...
Apple support told me it was "normal" as they hadn't exploded but "only" expanded 

[Kleinstein]

The Li polymer cells are different from conventional LI _ion cells by more than just the case. They also use a different type of electrolyte / separator. The electrolyte is actually the polymer that gives them the name, not the case.

Getting rid of damages Li cells can actually be a little tricky - depending on the country damaged LI cells (especially larger quantities) are considered dangerous good that might need a special permit for transportation. There usually is an except so one can bring small quantities to local disposal sites.

[james_s]

Same issue with my old MacBook Air 11''. I stored for a few months since I had my new Macbook Pro, and when I retrieved it from the closet, the batteries had inflated, and literally torn apart the aluminium case...
Apple support told me it was "normal" as they hadn't exploded but "only" expanded 

Technically it is "normal" for this type of cell to expand as they deteriorate. The issue is designing the computer such that the cells can't expand non-destructively but that's Apple for you. Despite their claims of being environmentally friendly, they want you to replace your devices every 2-3 years.

[IanMacdonald]

I've acquired at least four Acer laptops and netbooks from various sources. Mostly cast-offs. So far only one remains in the land of the living.

A colleague bought one new and had it die just out of warranty.

Presently using a Dell laptop. It's had some pretty rough treatment and it just keeps going.   

The early Venue tablets had some reliability probs but I think they've fixed them now.

Apple are good quality but just not worth the silly money you pay for them. Plus they are hard to repair. 

[cdev]

How can somebody prevent this from happening?

Some Apple laptops don't even have removable batteries. 

Same issue with my old MacBook Air 11''. I stored for a few months since I had my new Macbook Pro, and when I retrieved it from the closet, the batteries had inflated, and literally torn apart the aluminium case...
Apple support told me it was "normal" as they hadn't exploded but "only" expanded 

Technically it is "normal" for this type of cell to expand as they deteriorate. The issue is designing the computer such that the cells can't expand non-destructively but that's Apple for you. Despite their claims of being environmentally friendly, they want you to replace your devices every 2-3 years.

[Jeroen3]

Do they explode? A few years ago I had a laptop battery that expanded like that and when doing research on what was happening I saw several stories about them literally exploding on people. Luckily nobody that I read about was killed, but it seems there is a very serious fire risk.

This is the #1 reason electronics using people should both take care to not try to keep recharging these old batteries and also have a fire alarm in their home, one thats in good working order.

Explode (as in detonation) by itself not really but it can burst and catch on fire. Lithium has a nasty nasty property that it will burn easily when exposed to air or water (plus it generates hydrogen when in contact water - that can explode). So such fires can be pretty dangerous because pouring water on it will only make things worse and it generates its own oxygen so it is difficult to smother it out.

Just to get one big lie out of the world. Batteries with lithium do not explode when in contact with water. (as mentioned by James_s)
In fact, the procedure for fire of or in a device with a lithium battery is to submerge it in water.
Even Tesla's fire chapter in their first responders guide notes:

USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE

_{(yes, it is written in caps)}
Or what if there is a batter fire in a plane?

The goal is to keep the battery cool to prevent more fire, or spreading it to more cells.
When there battery is spewing flames or is gassing, it has shorted internally and is heating up incredibly fast.
Cool it down. Water needs a lot of energy to heat up.

[james_s]

How can somebody prevent this from happening?

Some Apple laptops don't even have removable batteries. 

Avoid over or under-charging the battery, avoid excessive temperatures, check them regularly for the first signs of puffing, refuse to buy products that have prismatic cells permanently installed within them, that's about all you can do really.

[janoc]

Just to get one big lie out of the world. Batteries with lithium do not explode when in contact with water.

I never said that the battery will explode in contact with water but that the metallic lithium will generate hydrogen gas which could explode (if left to accumulate). That's not quite the same thing.

However, you are right that current batteries don't really contain metallic lithium in any appreciable quantities, so this is a moot point. I have corrected my original post to not mislead people.