Water Heater for an Airline Trolly?

[Lord of nothing]

Hey
I will rent 2019 (or 2020) some Trains/ Bus and make some Trips with Member of your Social Club.
The main Problem I need a lot Hot Drinking Water! Its impossible to Store them because there is no way to get them with the law compliant. To prepare Food there are several hygiene standards I have to fit in even when I handle canned food. 
The only option is put a Pipe into an Water canister and head them up when the flow troth.

Its there such a system who can put into an Airline Trolley (you know from the Aircraft Service)?
The must work without external resource like an Power cord or so. 
Thanks

[meeder]

You want to heat water without an external energy source?

[Lord of nothing]

  yes. Maybe there is an Trolly on the Market who is affordable who have an Water pump and an Heater inside?

[meeder]

How do you want to heat water without a power source? Battery? How long should it be able to heat water and how much water do you want to heat?
Aircraft trolleys do not have active heating in them.

[NiHaoMike]

He mentions "a lot" so a propane tank would probably be the most practical. Unless it's only used on sunny days in which case a solar thermal collector might be worth considering.

[cdev]

That sounds like a Russian/Turkish "Samovar" - basically a tea making device..

[Cyberdragon]

You want to heat water without an external energy source?

He means portable for a food cart...not free energy...

There are portable gas (propane) tankless water heaters. They will produce exhaust so will need to be in a well vented area (IE might not be so good inside the bus or train). You can get small 12V water pumps for them if they aren't included.

Here's a cheap one with pump included.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eccotemp-Eccotemp-L10-Portable-Gas-Water-Heater-w-Flojet-Pump-Strainer-L10-Pump-Strainer/205583920

Here's a professional heater.
https://store.benscarts.com/Portable-On-Demand-Water-Heater-L5-L6-p/hwh.htm
http://store.benscarts.com/12-Volt-On-demand-water-pump-p/odp.htm (pump for above)

If you want to go all electric for indoor use, you'll need an inverter and a car battery. Not sure what the smallest electric water heater you can get is though, but so far they all seem to be about 1.5KW, which means you'll need a pretty hefty inverter.

[Lord of nothing]

How do you want to heat water without a power source? Battery?

Yes. 

How long should it be able to heat water and how much water do you want to heat?

a good Question.
At the moment I dont have plan any trip. But there are many diferent options now. The start from rent an City Bus for Sightseeing where just ~50 Pax have space and the other extreme is an Train with ~400 Pax. So the System should be that Versatile to fit into both scenarios.
My idea is something like that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankless_water_heating

Aircraft trolleys do not have active heating in them.

The are just an shell who everyone can build something into. Sure the are not longer certified to use on board an Aircraft but the dont need to.

He mentions "a lot" so a propane tank would probably be the most practical.

propane onboard an Train?! 

That sounds like a Russian/Turkish "Samovar"

Yes and No the major problem is the Hot Water have to stored there for a long time and keep to hold the temperature. So if I dont need Hot Water for ~3h the energy get wasted.

(IE might not be so good inside the bus or train).

I had the same idea.

The other Point is with an Hot Water Tank System the have to be Preheated. That can get very complicated when the Trolly get stored in an nearby Hotel Basement or even at an Bus Company Basement. I will serve Instant Tee and Coffee and onboard the Train Freeze Dried Meals. The have an very good price point. 

[Cyberdragon]

Potentially stupid idea warning!

Would a vacuum dewar work in reverse? IE, if it can keep things frozen, would it work to keep liquid warm? Then all you would have to worry about is the pump.

[jpanhalt]

Just take any old airline airplane, remove the wings, and add 4 wheels.  They all have galleys with hot water.

Is this really a problem?

[Lord of nothing]

 ... Again. When I make some Tours the Trolly have to stored somewhere. I have no Car and cant Transport it after the Trip back Home so the have to be stored in the Bus/ Hotel Basement. Do you relay think preheat the Trolly before I arrive there? 

Is this really a problem?

... If you mean find an Solution for Yes it is.

[BrianHG]

For my religious friends, during the 24 hour Sabbath when they cant use any electricity/gas/wood for heating of water, they have a huge thermos/Dewer which holds something like 25L of water, which plugs in and boils it.  When unplugged, (since they don't use electricity during the Sabbath), it keeps the water hot for 24 hours if they only use half of the water.

[Lord of nothing]

The other Point is size and weight.

Full size trolleys are generally about 0.3 metres wide, 1 metre tall, 0.75 metres long

[BrianHG]

When docked in their station, the airline trolleys are electrically heated.

[Marco]

I can't imagine that if the water is kept near boiling point it's not legal ... that's self sterilizing.

[Lord of nothing]

When docked in their station, the airline trolleys are electrically heated.

I will have no doc. or something elese maybe just at home. If the Bus Company allow me to park the Trolly the will push it somewhere in there Basement until I will pick it up. Sure I will drain the hole Water inside the System before I leaf the Trolly. 
Hopefully the plug it into the Powersocket for a while but that mean I need an reliable charging thing who have safty things inside to prevent some explosion or even Fire!

I can't imagine that if the water is kept near boiling point it's not legal ...

Nobody sayed that. The point is use Gas on board the Train/ Bus is quite illegal. Maybe with (very expensive) Certification but not with normal gear you get online. Boiling Water isnt that problem but the System musst be 100% leakage proof so if the Trolley is fallen over there have no hot Water is flowing outside and harm someone. The next problem is the Trolly must be sealed up and have to be tamper proof to prevent someone from put any dangerous, poison, harmful Material into the System.

[Zero999]

You want to heat water without an external energy source?

He means portable for a food cart...not free energy...

There are portable gas (propane) tankless water heaters. They will produce exhaust so will need to be in a well vented area (IE might not be so good inside the bus or train). You can get small 12V water pumps for them if they aren't included.

Here's a cheap one with pump included.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Eccotemp-Eccotemp-L10-Portable-Gas-Water-Heater-w-Flojet-Pump-Strainer-L10-Pump-Strainer/205583920

Here's a professional heater.
https://store.benscarts.com/Portable-On-Demand-Water-Heater-L5-L6-p/hwh.htm
http://store.benscarts.com/12-Volt-On-demand-water-pump-p/odp.htm (pump for above)

If you want to go all electric for indoor use, you'll need an inverter and a car battery. Not sure what the smallest electric water heater you can get is though, but so far they all seem to be about 1.5KW, which means you'll need a pretty hefty inverter.

I agree about using gas or perhaps even a spirit burner.

If combustion isn't acceptable, then why use an inverter? If a 12V heater isn't available, in the desired power rating, then use multiple cells/batteries in series to power a 120V mains heater.

[Lord of nothing]

Are there any OEM Products out there who can fit into an Shoebox size Box or better use the full length of the trolley but not the hight.
Before someone say there are products on the Market there is a company who make such Tolley but the Minium order is +10 Peace.  ...
https://www.abc-int.it/produtcs/espresso-coffee-trolley

[Urs42]

It seems that you are in austria, ceka.ch is selling Minibar trolleys from the Swiss Federal Railways https://www.ceka.ch/de/cekatec-shop-sbb-minibar/sbb-minibar-neu-mit-gebrauchtem-brennstoffzellen-system.26 The fuel cell in this thing can deliver about 1500W and it seems to be save to run in a train...

And now i want a minibar...

[Lord of nothing]

4.800,00 CHF  ....

An Airline Trolley cost from China ~500€: https://rstrolley.en.alibaba.com/product/1848994105-221790711/Aviation_inflight_aircraft_airline_catering_meal_trolley_cart.html?spm=a2700.8304367.prewdfa4cf.25.21ea4bc7BLzEOw
An European Produced one maybe 1000€. 

[hayatepilot]

4.800,00 CHF  ....

An Airline Trolley cost from China ~500€: https://rstrolley.en.alibaba.com/product/1848994105-221790711/Aviation_inflight_aircraft_airline_catering_meal_trolley_cart.html?spm=a2700.8304367.prewdfa4cf.25.21ea4bc7BLzEOw
An European Produced one maybe 1000€. 

But those cheap ones don't have 1500W of Hydrogen fuel cells in them!

This china thing is just a cabinet on wheels...

[Lord of nothing]

  sure but how about Lithium Accu or even Led one?
So whats next head it up with Thermit ? 

I tough the best way is some kind of Accu with an electric heat element?!
Quite safe and easy to maintain. 

EDIT: Nice Technology and for the SBB its fordable when a Cub of Tee cost 6€.

[Cyberdragon]

4.800,00 CHF  ....

An Airline Trolley cost from China ~500€: https://rstrolley.en.alibaba.com/product/1848994105-221790711/Aviation_inflight_aircraft_airline_catering_meal_trolley_cart.html?spm=a2700.8304367.prewdfa4cf.25.21ea4bc7BLzEOw
An European Produced one maybe 1000€. 

But those cheap ones don't have 1500W of Hydrogen fuel cells in them!

This china thing is just a cabinet on wheels...

  It's a food cart! Not a mission to the moon!

Batteries are the best option probably. But I don't know if there are low voltage water heaters, I would think the current would be huge. But, I'll look anyway. Otherwise you'll need an inverter, doesn't have to be the cleanest output one, I don't think a heater will care, as long as it's safety certified.

Nope, the only 12V heaters I could find were submersables, AKA just bare elements with no enclosure. Or portable kettles, but that's not spill proof.

[BrianHG]

Also, if the water is already heated, you don't need the 1500 watts to keep it hot, just to rapidly boil cold water.  200-300 watts should suffice if the water container is well insulated.  A 48v battery feeding a 120v kettle should keep the water steaming hot once it has already been boiled.  No inverter, only need around 5 amps at 48v and just use simple DC.

48v is 4 motorcycle batteries, or 1 telecom battery pack.

You can get Lithium 48v battery packs for electric bikes with external chargers & quick disconnect brackets, in approved housings.

72v ebike lithium battery packs also exist.  That would be 7.2 amps / 500 watts into a 120v kettle.  You can keep water perpetually boiling at that power level.  In fact, it would take around 30 minutes to boil the water instead of 10 with 1500 watts.  (Small kettle size obviously)

You'll just need one of these:
https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dkitchen&field-keywords=Hot+Water+Urn

[Cyberdragon]

A lot of those seem to have electronics that will definitely not function on DC or if undervolted. Also, are they spillproof?

EDIT: so you'd still need an inverter, but at least it would be smaller.