Well I'll not be using Farnell again

[vk6zgo]

The point is that handling small numbers is not cheap. Say you get a bag of 500 TO-92 transistors but someone wants 5, someone has to split that pack and re-packege into smaller numbers.

So say for example the 25000 price is 30% cheaper than the 500 price it doesn't really help with the order for 5 or 50. There is a fixed cost associated with employing the person to handle the products. So it is fine when someone orders 500 and you are getting the cost price is 30% less as the time taken to put the bag of 500 in a package is small and therefore has minimal cost. But even then if that bag of 500 sells for €10 and costs €1 to handle you are left with 20% margin that does not account for the fact that capital is tied up in stock and in some cases there will be a low value order with free shipping. It means that some low value orders are sold at cost or even a loss and profit is only made on larger orders where several product lines are sold in complete reels, bags etc.

A 30% gross margin may seem a lot but it really isn't when you have the overheads of warehouse space, staff and other expenses such as insurance, utilities etc. I'm sure that the likes of Farnell get better deals from manufacturers due to their size and vast customer base but still there must be a lot of stock that doesn't make them any significant profit.

Back in the day, many suppliers in Oz declined to supply small quantities as "it wasn't worth their while".
What they didn't take into account was that the person who wanted 5 resistors today for themselves, was often the same person ordering 1000 much more expensive items for their work tomorrow.

Guess which companies missed out on the bigger orders?
Interestingly, all those suppliers are now defunct!

[hans]

You can clearly see the increased delivery costs [these days] (I think they were less "aggressive" before) in the lower pricing brackets, sometimes over 50% extra in low qty (<25).
I haven't exactly figured out why. I can imagine them doing this if you order a QFP-100 chip, because they usually ship these in trays (for the better! i.e. getting a reliable part to the customer, with no bent pins) . Those trays aren't exactly free, so they need to be paid for.
On the other hand, I've also ordered a few DFN chips that they ship on tape, and you could argue these are way easier to cut and sell than if a customer wants to buy 10x 0402 0.1% resistors.
For example: http://uk.farnell.com/sensor-solutions-te-connectivity/htu21d/humidity-temp-sensor-digital-dfn/dp/2393536

Okay; maybe the point is.. if I order exactly 1 (which is possible in this pricing scheme), then a warehouse clerk has to find the part in the warehouse, untangle the reel, cut 1 part off, put it in an anti-static bag, seal it and put a label on it. Certainly plenty of work.
It however disappoints me is that if I order 8 parts, this is actually more expensive than buying 10. But I guess they don't want to make too fine granular pricing brackets everywhere..


I agree with what Simon said about their website though. Although it is more usable than RS (can't even filter "in stock" last time I used it), this site is so painfully slow. I was recording response time a little while back, and was able to go over 1 minute per page to list 100 SMT resistors. Absolutely unusable.

[exe]

Farnell are not a consumer retailer. They are a business to business company and are exempt from those particular regulations.

In the UK I used to buy from them as an individual. So, not sure about exemptions.

[BradC]

I agree with what Simon said about their website though. Although it is more usable than RS (can't even filter "in stock" last time I used it), this site is so painfully slow. I was recording response time a little while back, and was able to go over 1 minute per page to list 100 SMT resistors. Absolutely unusable.

I thought it was just me. It has been like this for years now. It's faster for me to shotgun 5 or 10 parts into the RS shopping cart and remove the ones that are out of stock or long lead (in the UK warehouse) than it is to select 1 part on the farknell web site.

[Simon]

The only thing I find odd is that they didn't mention at the time that they would charge the difference. Otherwise it seems pretty reasonable. I suppose the other option is they could have simply refunded the original order price and not sent anything.

Well basically they gave me free shipping I won't bother next time as it's not worth the time to log into my online banking and make the payment. The amount here is a few pounds, it's more hassle for both of us than it is worth, unfortunately I can't afford a reel but apparently had I been able to afford one I could have been tens of pounds out of pocket. I don't know why they do free shipping deals, Farnell do it on £20 and RS on £12 stuff costs money end of.

Yes the person i spoke to to find out why I had an unexpected statement had to go to their manager.

Oh well if i don't use them I don't have to get that queasy feeling every time I order:

1) will the parts be in stock
2) will the parts be correct
3) will the parts be properly packed

Yes I once ordered £700 pounds worth of TH ATmega328P, naturally i got the hallmark "sorry we lied about the stock and we don't have all of them" but what was worse was that I got a lot of damaged pins on what did arrive, it felt like they had had been swept up from the floor and repackaged and the tubes were not original. It felt like dealing with some dodgy person in china.

I ordered 10'000 1K TH resistors, now you would think that would mean 2 boxes of 5'000 each, no wrong again, I got several bags of resistors just dumped in there. No you are all sympathising with the handling costs of parts for Farnell but what about my handling costs? When I get parts like that it takes me longer to handle them and that has an impact when I an trying to sell or use them. Naturally a carrier bag of resistors slumped in it was very hard to store.

So yes, I have had about enough of them, sure I may have to use them with the current situation but they are now the last resort as I have no problem paying 10% more for peace of mind and to get the actual parts I ordered and have them sensibly packaged.

[Simon]

I agree with what Simon said about their website though. Although it is more usable than RS (can't even filter "in stock" last time I used it), this site is so painfully slow. I was recording response time a little while back, and was able to go over 1 minute per page to list 100 SMT resistors. Absolutely unusable.

I thought it was just me. It has been like this for years now. It's faster for me to shotgun 5 or 10 parts into the RS shopping cart and remove the ones that are out of stock or long lead (in the UK warehouse) than it is to select 1 part on the farknell web site.

Yes and i have told them and told them why it is like this but as they just employ cheap idiots no one cares. The farnell website tries to be clever and faster at finding your stuff but they do it wrong by starting to search every time you click on an attribute. this means that dozens of searches are being carried out for ever actual search an it loads the server down. They are the only ones that do it and they have the worse performing website. They can just about handle things now like searches for "1K 0805 1%". The RS website is fast but yes the major problem is that they don't have the in stock option and with the current situation this is a problem when 90% of results are not in stock.

[tszaboo]

Yes, re-reeling is expensive.

So is paying British (and Belgian) people to walk around a warehouse collecting individual line items for your £5 order to be delivered next day by UPS, internationally.

What parts cost direct from China and what they cost from a local warehouse are two very different things.

But then getting a full reel of A brand resistor from local stock at different distributor is cheaper. The only difference is that Farnell writes the price on their website, and the other distributor has phone a fax and an email to ask for a quote. Also, having an engineer or someone from purhasing selecting the resistors from the "generic 10K 0402 100ppm 1%" from different brands, selecting a "good deal" meaning that rooting out the ridicoluls prices.
I mean look at this:
http://be.farnell.com/vishay/crcw040210k0jnedif/res-thick-film-10k-5-0-063w-0402/dp/1739107
This is 21 EUR for 150 resistors. The complete reel is about 5-7 EUR and you break it to 60 re-reels.

[Monkeh]

Yes, re-reeling is expensive.

So is paying British (and Belgian) people to walk around a warehouse collecting individual line items for your £5 order to be delivered next day by UPS, internationally.

What parts cost direct from China and what they cost from a local warehouse are two very different things.

But then getting a full reel of A brand resistor from local stock at different distributor is cheaper. The only difference is that Farnell writes the price on their website, and the other distributor has phone a fax and an email to ask for a quote. Also, having an engineer or someone from purhasing selecting the resistors from the "generic 10K 0402 100ppm 1%" from different brands, selecting a "good deal" meaning that rooting out the ridicoluls prices.
I mean look at this:
http://be.farnell.com/vishay/crcw040210k0jnedif/res-thick-film-10k-5-0-063w-0402/dp/1739107
This is 21 EUR for 150 resistors. The complete reel is about 5-7 EUR and you break it to 60 re-reels.

The 'only difference' is that Farnell maintain a convenient website and allow you to order ten resistors, not ten reels.

There's a difference between production quantity and prototyping. I doubt your 'different distributor' would be so cheap if you asked them to wander around cutting bits off random reels then re-reeling them.

[Kjelt]

Back in the day, many suppliers in Oz declined to supply small quantities as "it wasn't worth their while".
What they didn't take into account was that the person who wanted 5 resistors today for themselves, was often the same person ordering 1000 much more expensive items for their work tomorrow.

Guess which companies missed out on the bigger orders?
Interestingly, all those suppliers are now defunct!

Perhaps with small business but big companies only use Farnell and sorts for prototyping supplies and perhaps quick restocking the pick-stock (stock for the engineers to grab when they are experimenting etc).
Large companies will never order for their production from these companies, they are way too expensive, they just order directly from the manufacturers or their firstline representatives. At least that is my experience.

[Simon]

Perhaps with small business but big companies only use Farnell and sorts for prototyping supplies and perhaps quick restocking the pick-stock (stock for the engineers to grab when they are experimenting etc).
Large companies will never order for their production from these companies, they are way too expensive, they just order directly from the manufacturers or their firstline representatives. At least that is my experience.

Yes and no. How large do you think a company has to be do deal direct with a manufacturer? VERY VERY big, an auto manufacturer or solar inverter builders. Manufacturers are in the business of manufacturing, not dealing with customers. people like farnel will deal with people ranging from us to medium or large companies. The bigger ones turning over more will pay less but how the hell does a subcontract manufacturer get work and place orders with farnell if they don't do the small quantities that sometimes these companies need or that we need to make prototypes?

Farnells owner Avnet won't deal in sub-reel quantities but then that is their chosen business and they have farnell do deal with the smaller sales that do still need to take place. Unfortunately Farnell are large enough to not give a shit about anyone. I have the same situation at work with metal connectors, but being a more niche market things are a little easier and I deal with a manufacturers direct distributor who give me best pricing and are helpful despite us buying in dribs and drabs, but they know that i specify their parts on my looms and will advise subcontractors to go to them. Farnell will of course sell me metal connectors but the bastards just go to my supplier who direct ships and farnell charge you 2-3x the price, quite the markup with items that cost £20 to £50 with farnell not doing a thing but let a computer take the money......Swings and roundabouts.......

[jc101]

Yes and no. How large do you think a company has to be do deal direct with a manufacturer? VERY VERY big, an auto manufacturer or solar inverter builders.

Well, I have an account with Wurth which is handy for various bits and pieces I use.  Only thing is a Min order value of £50.  I am a very small company.  It doesn't hurt to ask any company if they will sell direct, though don't expect credit terms.  They can only say no, or ignore you completely, though finding a contact at a show can be of benefit.

[Wilksey]

I've had Digikey send me the wrong parts before, but never had an issue with Mouser, RS or Farnell / CPC.

I have occasionally used direct m/f like Microchip Direct, and used the likes of Future Electronics / Arrow / AVnet etc.

Sometimes you get buying power going through an assembler - if you have a good relationship with them that is, I've used a few that offer me a part price way cheaper than I could get from a supplier direct.

[Beamin]

Dear (INSERT COSTOMER NAME HERE)

At farnel electronics we highly value your business and assure you we have a whole team from our (INSERT RELEVENT) department looking into the problem now. Please except a 3% discount on your next purchase of $3000* or more. We realize you have many choices for your (INSERT RELEVENT PRODUCT CATAGORY HERE) and are proud to serve you.

Thank You for choosing farnel.
(INSERT PR DEPT. NAME HERE)



_{*Offer only applies to retail priced items and does not include sale items, clearance, web, or telephone orders. Offer good for three days starting from date of original purchase.}

But they have a WHOLE team looking into the problem?

[bd139]

To note if RS fuck up, which they or parcelforce do occasionally, the outcome is always keep what we sent you, refund, send new parts out. And they get it right the second time.

Farnell are hopeless when something goes wrong. I had an argument with them about a year ago when a £180 order didnt get tracking ID allocated despite paying next day before 9 and ordering before 10AM. When speaking to someone they said they’d refund me delivery I paid and that it would be dispatched that day.

Next morning I check for tracking ID and the order is cancelled and it took me two phone arguments to get the cash refunded  ... RS got business, arrived next day. No problems.

CPC are the funny company though. Pretty regularly I get sent empty zip lock bags that someone has picked. The person on the phone sounds terribly surprised about this and then you have to wait while they sent the replacement part out by drunk carrier pigeon.

[Simon]

CPC == Farnell, it's probably where they train the staff that hopefully get it right with Farnell orders.

[bd139]

I think it’s actually the pit of despair that they chuck Farnell staff in who are no good.

[Kjelt]

Yes and no. How large do you think a company has to be do deal direct with a manufacturer? VERY VERY big, an auto manufacturer or solar inverter builders. Manufacturers are in the business of manufacturing, not dealing with customers.

It depends on the manufacturer how they have organized their operations. Like you know Microchip for instance has its own webshop you can even buy single pieces although this is exceptional.
So what I heard (no personal experience) it depends on the order size, as long as it is an interesting amount of $ they will sent you an offer. No you will not get a personal visit or someone flying in to see you to start negotiating ofcourse. But I am pretty sure if you for instance have a small business and call your local ST representative and ask for a quote for a few reels of microcontrollers say 10000 pieces, you will get an offer. It is also in their interest that small businesses start using their silicon, if only 3% of those small businesses make it and get big they are happy.

[Simon]

You are talking about micro's and possibly silicon in general. Atmel told me to get lost, microchip and TI are doing direct ship now but I would think that they have set up a separate department for that having realised that they can make far more than the likes of farnell do and have more of an interest in people using their parts than a passive component manufacturer.

[Kjelt]

You are talking about micro's and possibly silicon in general. Atmel told me to get lost

What quantity was that about then?
Next it also depends on your role and how you make contact.
You need to contact the sales department of the manufacturer and they will probably not open any negotiations with a hardware engineer but would be more susceptible to a senior purchaser. If you have a medium company without such role ask your CEO to give you that role to start negotiations, although it requires a different "language and behaviour" which probably don't match a hardware engineer, just as you don't like to listen to your purchaser for hardware advice.

[Simon]

No it was clear to them that I was not a big player. They just told me to go to distribution like farnell. I can't remember if they mentioned any minimum spend but if they did it would have been very, very high. I think I was hoping to buy in the sub 10'000 but over 1'000. I was just not worth their time.

Now chip makers are cutting out the middle man.

[Simon]

Oh yes, it was CPC I bought a tablet from that had a damaged screen or screen driver, got grief over sending that back.

[james_s]

CPC is an interesting place. I bought a pile of nice ceramic lampholders on sale for something like 50p each and brought them back home with me, for whatever reason a socket half as nice would normally cost several times that here. I've used quite a few of them over the last few years and occasionally wish I'd bought a few more.

[Kjelt]

CPC is an interesting place. I bought a pile of nice ceramic lampholders on sale for something like 50p each and brought them back home with me, for whatever reason a socket half as nice would normally cost several times that here. I've used quite a few of them over the last few years and occasionally wish I'd bought a few more.

Yes since led the old sockets are thrown away by the zillions.

[james_s]

This was prior to LED bulbs being commonplace. I haven't thrown away any sockets though, my LED bulbs screw into the same sockets previously occupied by CFLs, which before that held incandescent lamps.

[Simon]

I bought some parts from RS I needed in a hurry, I had pasted my board and assembled most parts only to find one of the packages was wrong. I rang them right after I placed the order to see if it could be changed to a guaranteed early delivery, they said they could not but on checking the tracking the next day they were on a before 9am delivery not the 9-5 I was advised they would be on and we were not charged anything. That is what I call a good supplier. if it had been farnell they would of not known for 2 hours if the stock was even real never mind discussing delivery.