What if you like to invent but your company wants to own all your IPs?

[langwadt]

You can tinker on anything outside your employer's products or industry, the inclusion clause I see lately is "related to the [employer's] business".

It makes sense- as some people develop a competing product all the while working for a company, with the inventor's full intention to quit and immediately start a competing business.

Not being allowed things related to the employer's business still doesn't make sense. You're obviously going to tinker with things related to what you're working on. If they want to own it, however, they should pay for it. I'm not working for free. Well, I technically give away a lot of hours, but that's my own choice

Related to line of business inventions being owned by the company makes sense to me.

Take any random field. Suppose you're working on valves for an oil and gas company and "on your own time" come up with a substantial improvement to the valve design. "Yes, my job was to improve the design of valves. Yes, I did make a substantial improvement, but I distinctly recall that I had that insight while turning off the shower, so obviously, the improvement is mine and not the company's." That's just not going to play well in court is my prediction. (Nor should it.)

(For the record, I'm an executive and strongly supportive of our employees' rights to tinker and own their inventions, provided they're outside the scope of what we do as a company.)

here the law is basically that anything you invent at work or related to that company's field belong to the company if they want it, which they have 4 months to decide, but, if the value of the invention exceeds what is to be expected from just doing your job you are entitled to get reasonable compensation. and there is is something like 6 months after quitting a job where it is on you to prove that you hadn't already come up with the idea before you quit.

[rhb]

Whatever you do, don't pull an "Evan Brown". 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2002-08-05/business/0208050013_1_alcatel-legal-fees-new-trial

I knew Evan at the time. He was in large part responsible for organizing the DFW Unix user group.  Sadly, Evan convinced the company that he knew how to decompile assembly code.  They offered him a lot of money, but he wanted more and in the process destroyed himself.  The sad part is that no decompiler can recover comments.  Having worked on several million lines of old code, at least 500,000 lines of which had *no* comments at all, without comments it really doesn't matter if it's in assembly or C.

As noted by others, no reasonable company will refuse contract language that exempts work not related to their business.  Evan was a sys admin, not a programmer.  But he was claiming an "invention" that was important to the company to the point they offered him something like a million dollars for it.

On my last contract I asked for language that gave me ownership of the software I wrote.  The client had a "non-exclusive, worldwide right to use ..." but I owned the software.  I simply explained I was tired of rewriting software when I moved to another employer.  It took a while to clear the lawyers (super major oil company), but was never an issue.

[amirm]

Almost every major company these days has policies about IP, prior inventions, moonlighting, etc.  As such, it is very useful to speak to an employment attorney to know how enforceable those things are, and ways of getting them changed.  I have done this and it has paid lots of dividends. This advice also comes in handy if you are ever laid off and face signing such things to get your severance payments.

In Australia that would be illegal, you don't have to sign anything to be laid off, and the company is legally obligated to pay out your severance.
I'd be very surprised if this wasn't the same in other countries.
They can of course ask, and pressure you to do so, but only a fool would sign something in order to get their legally entitled severance pay.

It is kind of the same here except that most employment is "at will" and there is no law stipulating minimum amount of severance other than maybe the two-week notice.  As a result, when the company offers say, one week for every year you have worked, that is a "bonus" they are giving you and as such, can withhold it if they want.  They hold this as a carrot to get you to sign the departure agreement.

Often they offer you some work to finish before leaving and this can come with increased pay/bonus.  Again, this option is also withheld if you don't sign the agreement.

What is not well known is that you can negotiate these agreements if you have leverage with them, i.e. they really need you to finish your work. Or there is risk for them that you could sue for cause (discrimination, etc.).  How clean their nose is in this being a real layoff determines how much willingness to negotiate.

You are right that employment laws are very different elsewhere.  I had to shut down one of our R&D groups in UK and it was quite a complex process.

I have had companies try to get me to sign these things even when I am quitting!  My answer is always a smile and saying, "if you want to pay me I will but otherwise, no." 

[blacksheeplogic]

I've never had a problem with this in my contracts. I've also never had a company send lawyers to my home either. A lot of what's written into employment contracts is to stop aholes from screwing the company. If the company you work for are aholes just leave, if you are any good, a lot of good employers out there looking for good people.

[Mr. Scram]

A friend of mine got a bad reaction when he asked to read a tenancy agreement (in-branch at a national estate agent chain) before signing it. Basically "I'm not waiting around for you to read it so you can sign it right now, everyone else does" so he asked if he could take a copy away to read and come back and sign it the next day. They said he couldn't do that either, and he had to get them to phone the regional manager before he was given a copy.

Coming back to the original topic I wouldn't sign such a contract, either they agree to amend it or I'll go work somewhere else. I'd rather flip burgers than be unable to work on my own projects in my own time.

You'd have to be a moron or very desperate to give in to that. You know it can't be anything good.

[Mr. Scram]

For any party it will be cheaper going for a settlement. Here judges typically try to steer you towards this one more time during the session.

It's not about cheaper. It's about squeezing the life out of a party with limited funds.

[Bud]

Why not have some fun and design, say,  a line of anal pleasure toys for, say, senior males, 70+. Make sure the company follows through on their requirement to claim ownership for it and use social media to spread the news. Opportunity is endless.

[CM800]

Why not have some fun and design, say,  a line of anal pleasure toys for, say, senior males, 70+. Make sure the company follows through on their requirement to claim ownership for it and use social media to spread the news. Opportunity is endless.

^ 

Make sure they file several patents.

[KNSSoftware]

Why not have some fun and design, say,  a line of anal pleasure toys for, say, senior males, 70+. Make sure the company follows through on their requirement to claim ownership for it and use social media to spread the news. Opportunity is endless.

Thanks, I might take that one.  The Incontinence Rabbit, with heart rate monitor, for His safety

[tggzzz]

Why not have some fun and design, say,  a line of anal pleasure toys for, say, senior males, 70+. Make sure the company follows through on their requirement to claim ownership for it and use social media to spread the news. Opportunity is endless.

My understanding is that there already several household-name companies that cater for all that is necessary in that market. You may be familiar with these TV adverts and .

(Yes, those are "safe for work"!)

[Falcon69]

There's a TV series on right now, called 'Wisdom of the Crowd'.  The person I am talking about in this show is in a legal battle right now with a company she used to work for. She has developed code for this app program that the show is about.  The legal battle is, that the company she used to work for is suing her and got a court order for her to stop working on the code and program and with current employer because the company believes that all code she writes, Is property of their company. Why?  Because the company paid for her schooling/college to learn and write said code.

I know it's just a TV show, but makes you think.

Can a company claim any and all inventions or developments that you do, because you learned how to do it at a college that the company paid for you to go to?  So in a way, if you learn mechanical engineering, paid for by the company you used to work for, do they own everything you develop/invent that could be mechanical related that you do in your life time, even if you no longer work for them?

[engineheat]

With respect to OP, an attorney can give best advice as to general attitude of the judges in your state/country with respect to such enforcements.  30 minute conversation won't cost you much and give you peace of mind.

Yeah, I'll probably speak with an attorney. I'm a fresh grad finishing up school and I accepted an offer, with a starting date in January. I can't just not take the job, because I really want to work at this company. They gave me a great offer.

The company is huge, it's in the Dow 30. Some of you mentioned asking them to change the clause or make minor modifications to it. Is it even likely that a big company with all that bureaucracy will agree to something like that? I think this is easier with a small company.

I guess another option is to file the provisional patent on any ideas I have now before I start working there. Even if the employment agreement wants to own everything, it cannot pertain to anything prior to my starting date right?

Thanks

[Falcon69]

Probably not. If it is as big as a company you say it is, there will be a cost, maybe pretty big cost to them, to get with their attorney's to change the contract, just for you. If you are a recent grad, they'll just move on to someone else who will accept the contract as is.

[Circlotron]

Haven’t read the entire thread.
Maybe you should daily submit details of one nonsense invention after another. And draw up these details on company time. It is they that are requiring you to do this after all. The idea is to make their own demands tiresome to them. Let them know that they have the upper hand 😇 and that if they stop this requirement you will dutifully comply by stopping your submissions.

[Mr. Scram]

Haven’t read the entire thread.
Maybe you should daily submit details of one nonsense invention after another. And draw up these details on company time. It is they that are requiring you to do this after all. The idea is to make their own demands tiresome to them. Let them know that they have the upper hand 😇 and that if they stop this requirement you will dutifully comply by stopping your submissions.

"What do you mean, I'm not paid to draw up plans for a Ninja Turtle radar detector? It says it in my contract right here!"

[grumpydoc]

A friend of mine got a bad reaction when he asked to read a tenancy agreement (in-branch at a national estate agent chain) before signing it. Basically "I'm not waiting around for you to read it so you can sign it right now, everyone else does" so he asked if he could take a copy away to read and come back and sign it the next day. They said he couldn't do that either, and he had to get them to phone the regional manager before he was given a copy.

You'd have to be a moron or very desperate to give in to that. You know it can't be anything good.

Possibly not that mad to sign.

If you could muster even the slightest proof that you were not given adequate time to read the document then the contract would be invalid and they would not be able to hold you to any terms.

[cdev]

So-called adhesion contracts are becoming the rule rather than the exception in all sorts of areas.

Not just nationally, internationally, ISDS is an adhesion contract...

[cdev]

Be careful about signing anything you don't feel good about. You need to get your ideas on the record as predating this or other employment in a way that isn't ambiguous.

Get your patents submitted before you enter into any agreements.  I would also make it clear that your pre-employment work is your own (thats how I would put it and make it clear that they understand that, make sure that if they want you to agree to anything else committing work you do for them, you must get it also in writing from them that your pre-employment work is unambiguously your own, also in writing.)

[Mr. Scram]

If you could muster even the slightest proof that you were not given adequate time to read the document then the contract would be invalid and they would not be able to hold you to any terms.

I would make very sure that's the case in the country you're in. In a lot of places you're expected to examine what you sign before you sign. If you don't, that's on you. Unless they put a gun against your head or something. If you're not given adequate time, you shouldn't enter into the contract.

[cdev]

I'm not familiar with this kind of case but paying for (in)justice is on the rise, trend is to require binding arbitration under judges who moonlight as lawyers for firms that get all their business from big corporations.

[thermistor-guy]

... Even if the employment agreement wants to own everything, it cannot pertain to anything prior to my starting date right?
Thanks

Don't assume that. It depends on the exact wording of whatever you're signing.

May I suggest, if you are not doing it already, that you write your ideas down in hardbound notebooks, in ink. I suggest you date and sign the entries, in the presence of a witness who also dates and signs the entries. And keep the notebooks up-to-date.

Maybe your ideas will turn out to be cool and interesting but not commercially valuable, in which my suggestion will seem excessive. Or maybe you're the next Gordon Gould inventing the laser:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Gould

I don't know if US courts now allow electronic notebooks as evidence, to establish priority (to an invention). That would make hand-written notebooks obsolete. Your EE school faculty can guide you on that.

[BrianHG]

I guess another option is to file the provisional patent on any ideas I have now before I start working there. Even if the employment agreement wants to own everything, it cannot pertain to anything prior to my starting date right?

Thanks

Careful, in the US, when filing a Provisional, and you started work before it is a fully granted application (you'll need to wait years before working at your employer), your new employer my try to claim part of it, if not, it is easier for them to get your patent nullified.  After all, they have the money which you don't...

If you truly want to file a US patent before entering employment, and you want to be secure, I would say filing a normal patent as a 'micro-entity' ((read up on everything for this) which saves you up to 75% on filing fees and your patent can be granted within 1 year if you have 20 claims total or less, 4 of which are allowed to be independent if I recall correctly).  Do not leave the open door which the 'provisional' does for a 12 month period where you may add updates to the patent if you are worried about your new employer driving a potential monkey wrench into your life in the future.

And for god sake, never say a word or perform any function at your company remotely related to anything in your patent's claims.

[amirm]

Yeah, I'll probably speak with an attorney. I'm a fresh grad finishing up school and I accepted an offer, with a starting date in January. I can't just not take the job, because I really want to work at this company. They gave me a great offer.

Then take the job and don't worry about this.  Getting professional work experience is far more important than rights to some side project for a year or two.

The company is huge, it's in the Dow 30. Some of you mentioned asking them to change the clause or make minor modifications to it. Is it even likely that a big company with all that bureaucracy will agree to something like that? I think this is easier with a small company.

I would very nicely ask your hiring manager about this.  Write him/her an email saying that you like to tinker on the side and would the company really own whatever you do on this side using your own means.  It won't be the first time someone has asked I am sure.  He may get a positive reply and at any rate, confirmation of your read of the contract.

[Mr. Scram]

Don't assume things because you want it to be so. If you sign, be prepared to hand over the idea, or to cease working on it for the duration of your contract, though that's not a guarantee they won't consider it theirs if it takes off anyway. Considering it's a party with deep pockets, that'd be a nasty situation and one you'd probably lose.

[engineheat]

I guess another option is to file the provisional patent on any ideas I have now before I start working there. Even if the employment agreement wants to own everything, it cannot pertain to anything prior to my starting date right?

Thanks

Careful, in the US, when filing a Provisional, and you started work before it is a fully granted application (you'll need to wait years before working at your employer)

I've never heard of anything like this. Can you provide a link or more info? So they are going to ask me if I have any provisionals and if I say yes then they'll tell me I can't work there? That's scary

And I won't have this problem if I filed a regular utility patent?

Thanks