What On Earth

[Mechanical Menace]

Come off it YOU KNOW you are buying stuff from a Country that is industrially lawless so if you can't under stand that then I suggest you stay away from buying from them.

And what about the rebadged stuff sold over here? Even well known vendors carry that stuff and claim they meet the specs.

I think my rant is pretty self explanatory.The word CAT written on a cheap meter means about the same as MEOW,

Actually not everything cheap lies about their specs.

you get what you pay for. Unbelievable!

Sometimes you get charged a "proper" amount for cheap crap.

Oh yea and if any body is poking around in high voltage valve stuff then my comment about not going near electricity apply.Do people really not under stand how to keep them selves safe?

You buy something advertised by UK sellers as having a certain safety rating you expect it to be true.

[PsychoMaster]

If we are not careful we are going to wind up in a society where you cannot do anything because of H and S officials treating us all like morons.You and your intelligence are responsible for your safety  not
really relying on something because of whats printed on it.If you actually read what I have written then it pretty much answers ,and saying I am making good for dishonest manufacturers ,where are they to blame? If they print on their products what the buyer expects to see when paying next to nothing who is being dishonest?I'll repeat again ' YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING'. Is all this so that you can go crying to some one if you do some thing dumb?

[G7PSK]

I would still have bought the UT61E if had only been labled CAT2 after all that is all my scope is and I would find it surprising if any scope is CAT4 except perhaps something like the Fluke scopemeter.

[Mechanical Menace]

If we are not careful we are going to wind up in a society where you cannot do anything because of H and S officials treating us all like morons.You and your intelligence are responsible for your safety

And part of that is buying tools that meet safety specs you require for the job.

  not
really relying on something because of whats printed on it

There isn't a teardown online of a product, it's not stupidly cheap but cheap enough to be worth the saved money (just like an amazing amount of the meters you're on about), how do you know without buying it and then braking your warranty by opening it up?

It is ILLEGAL for them to put those markings on products that don't meet the standard, and still "trusted vendors" will stock them. How many dangerous USB chargers are bought from a big name shop?

[CatalinaWOW]

If we are not careful we are going to wind up in a society where you cannot do anything because of H and S officials treating us all like morons.You and your intelligence are responsible for your safety  not
really relying on something because of whats printed on it.If you actually read what I have written then it pretty much answers ,and saying I am making good for dishonest manufacturers ,where are they to blame? If they print on their products what the buyer expects to see when paying next to nothing who is being dishonest?I'll repeat again ' YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BUYING'. Is all this so that you can go crying to some one if you do some thing dumb?

From my point of view, we are already there.  But it is likely to get worse. 

The sad part is how little value some of the protections have.  In California, well meaning lawmakers passed a law requiring vendors who sold items known to contain carcinogens to post warnings.  After a few rounds of lawyering it was realized that many food products contain trace amounts of carcinogens.  So now all stores that sell food in that state have a warning sign.  The only good it does is to block a little light in the window, and provide a tiny bit of protection from the weather.

[G7PSK]

There should be a warning in the PRC. "Lawyers are highly toxic to your wallet" and another on birth certificates. "Warning life is fatal" that should cover everything.

[SeanB]

That explains the little warning in the fine print" Warning, may cause cancer in California" on US made food. As it invariably also has high fructose corn syrup ( even in stuff like dry spices and meat) I stay away from it.

HP sauce does not taste the same since it was bought out. I stopped using it.

[Mechanical Menace]

HP sauce does not taste the same since it was bought out. I stopped using it.

I can't remember what it tasted like pre 1988 but it hasn't changed as long as I can remember, though I was worried when Heinz bought it and moved production.

Maybe it's one of those things that doesn't travel well, like Guinness?

[John Coloccia]

It's a CAT rating at a certain voltage.  The voltage is very important...maybe even most important...because that determines the isolation you need.  If that's botched up, all the clever little isolation slots and fuses become nothing but spark gaps.  If you're rated for 600V, that means I should be able to probe 600V all day long with no problems and no damage.

Actually, no, I don't believe so. If you happen to probe a three phase 600 V bus bar while accidentally having your meter on the amps range, then your meter may not survive without damage. The important thing is that you will survive without too much damage (assuming you are wearing the appropriate PPE).

To use the flying analogy, if you goof up your plane may crash but you at least have a parachute.

I'm talking about damage to the protection mechanisms.  If the ratings are fubar, you really have no idea at what point you're exceeding the actual safe limits for the device, and the day you do something stupid the protection you need may not be there.

[IanB]

I'm talking about damage to the protection mechanisms.  If the ratings are fubar, you really have no idea at what point you're exceeding the actual safe limits for the device, and the day you do something stupid the protection you need may not be there.

I would imagine the protection mechanisms have to fail safe. If they are damaged they should go open circuit or high resistance and the meter should stop working.

But at this point I am speculating on too much. I think it is necessary to refer to the actual specifications of the CAT safety tests and see what they require for each CAT level.

[miguelvp]

If they don't meet regulation then you can report it to your country so the meters in question are subjected to an import ban. The question is, do they meet the regulations for the year that they were designed?

Are they required to update the same models newly produced to newer regulations?

Who is going to pay for the testing and dig through the paperwork that might have the appropriate exemptions if they actually do meet previous regulations and are somewhat grandfather in?

I guess there is more need of proof and less assumptions. What is the actual regulation? can I use a meter while standing in a bucket of water and still be safe? or do they actually require proper handling of the device with the necessary protection external to the device itself?

A piss poor design is not a big enough claim that it wont meet those regulations. Maybe contact a consumer protection group in your country to see if anything can be done to test those devices and investigate if they meet the needed standards they claim they meet?

[Corporate666]

Come off it YOU KNOW you are buying stuff from a Country that is industrially lawless so if you can't under stand that then I suggest you stay away from buying from them.I think my rant is pretty self explanatory.The word CAT written on a cheap meter means about the same as MEOW,you get what you pay for. Unbelievable!
 Oh yea and if any body is poking around in high voltage valve stuff then my comment about not going near electricity apply.Do people really not under stand how to keep them selves safe?

How do you know you're buying junk?  Or rather, how does the consumer know?

Uni-T is not a particularly Chinese sounding name, and the store it's being sold in won't have a big sign saying "Chinese shit!  Price is low, but you're on your own for safety".

And you can't judge based on price - there are some Chinese meters which are expensive and some which are good also.

And you can't judge based on where they are made either - because aren't Agilent (or was it Fluke) meters built in China these days?


The premise that the onus is upon the consumer to know they should not trust the ratings is silly. 

[IanB]

I guess it would be more appropriate to check for a traceable UL certification proving that the standards were met.

[rollatorwieltje]

And you can't judge based on where they are made either - because aren't Agilent (or was it Fluke) meters built in China these days?

Fluke makes some cheap models for the Chinese market. What's interesting is that they aren't sold in the EU, but the Fluke 101 I ordered came with a document stating it complies with the appropriate EN/IEC standards, written in EN/FR/DE/IT/SP. It also has a CE mark.

[SL4P]

The thing is, nobody would make a fuss if the multimeter said it was only for CAT I circuits.

The thing is, I bet they would. People would say, "Oh, it's only CAT I, it's crap!"

Apparently there is an expectation today that all meters will have CAT III/CAT IV printed on them. The manufacturers merely oblige. It is called "the law of unintended consequences".

With a BILLION potential customers - who needs return business.
I want to get rich NOW.

[SL4P]

It's very simple, if you work on mains get proper tools, i.e. isolated screw drivers, isolated pliers and quality meters/testers/probes f...

OK, I'll go to the store and only buy products that are displayed UL, CE, CAT III from
(please insert list of known vendors here - I'm sure they're all the same across the globe)

[SL4P]

I would imagine the protection mechanisms have to fail safe. If they are damaged they should go open circuit or high resistance and the meter should stop working.

Yeah right.  Imagining, and expecting someone else to 'do the right thing' will save lives.

[G7PSK]

And you can't judge based on where they are made either - because aren't Agilent (or was it Fluke) meters built in China these days?

Fluke makes some cheap models for the Chinese market. What's interesting is that they aren't sold in the EU, but the Fluke 101 I ordered came with a document stating it complies with the appropriate EN/IEC standards, written in EN/FR/DE/IT/SP. It also has a CE mark.

They also make some not so cheap meters for the rest of the world, I have just bought a 115 and that is designed in the US but made in China.

[PsychoMaster]

How did my mad rant become a debate?

[madires]

It's very simple, if you work on mains get proper tools, i.e. isolated screw drivers, isolated pliers and quality meters/testers/probes f...

OK, I'll go to the store and only buy products that are displayed UL, CE, CAT III from
(please insert list of known vendors here - I'm sure they're all the same across the globe)

screw drivers: Wero, Wiha
pliers: Knippex, Wiha
meters/testers: Benning, Fluke

[LordNobady]

I guess it would be more appropriate to check for a traceable UL certification proving that the standards were met.

if that becomes the standard to look at them then the Chinese will print UL numbers on them. possible even from working look alike's. As long as thy can sell them thy will not stop. the only way is not to by them.

[Sigmoid]

And in almost all cases, it'll have nothing to do with the CAT rating (or lack of it) of a meter. It'll be down to the EE's own mistake. (Well that's based on my own experience anyway, and Darwin hasn't succeeded yet in my case).

That doesn't mean that silkscreening bullshit CAT ratings on stuff is in any way acceptable.

[CatalinaWOW]

Yeah it's unacceptable.  But it is also unacceptable to run red lights and to stick a knife in a persons gut and demand their money.  Laws against these behaviors don't mean they don't happen.  That is why sensible people look before driving off at a green light, and don't visit places where nasty people with knives are likely to be.  Or they carry their own knife and bring a huge friend.  The latter example is the analog to buying cheap equipment and using it with caution.  It isn't for everyone.