What percentage of electrical engineers physically handle electronics?

[Galenbo]

...and they said that most EEs don't have to handle/touch electronics at their place of work. They both work exclusively in front of a computer. This seemed extremely counter-intuitive to me, but I assume that two PhDs aren't just pranking me at random.

More than half of the engineers I know, don't even use software other than office stuff.

[zapta]

PhDs have no idea. Anyone, who spends 8+ years of their life just learning electronics, instead of doing it, is so detached from reality, that their experience is just meaningless. By the time they come out of university, they are spoiled with theory, instead of practice. Then they become like PLC programmers for Siemens, never setting foot in the factory they are programming, living in a cubicle, laughing at the bad jokes of their boss, and hopefully they will become assistant (to the) regional manager be the end of their forties.

I'm assuming you have a perpetual grudge against an ex- colleague/boss/client who has a phd? correlation is not causation 

It's eduphobia, a recurring theme here.

[rrinker]

 And it's somewhat understandable, given some of the examples we've seen.

It all depends on what you want  accomplish. I would fully agree with NANDBlog if the object were to design a working product - an BSEE who spent the past 8 years working in the industry vs a fresh PhD - I'd pick the BSEE.  Research the next generation of  high bandwidth high capacity memory? I'd find a PhD who did their research in something related.

The "not handling electronics" really turned off my best friend at his first official engineering position. Where he worked, the engineers were not allowed to assemble anything (union rules) and he quickly became disgusted with getting poorly constructed bits back from his designs. Nothing he could do but point out the errors and send them back. He eventually quit, and didn't take another EE job until he found a hands-on position. And every position he's held since has involved both designing and building the prototypes for his projects.

[derGoldstein]

More than half of the engineers I know, don't even use software other than office stuff.

This has been my experience with mechanical engineers. First year on the job they'd at least know how to use AutoCAD and some parametric modeling program, but five years into it they're only using excel and google docs. Moreover, these are the engineers that are moving up in their respective companies, it's clearly considered advancement in their careers.

But at that point they're "managers with a background in _SUBJECT_". If asked, they wouldn't say that their job is mechanical engineering, they'd say they're managers or executives. They'd put "B.Eng." on their CV, but they won't say "I'm a mechanical engineer" unless the following statement has something very specific to do with that particular education.

However, the people I was talking to were very clear that they were both actively practicing engineering.

[CatalinaWOW]

I've got to defend excel/calc here.  While the big engineering tools are wonderful, they are expensive, and they don't get placed at every seat in large organizations and may not exist in small organizations at all.

If you understand the theory you can do some fairly sophisticated modeling and analysis in a spreadsheet that is then accessible to nearly everyone in the world.  It won't be as good as the big boys, and won't be able to handle problems of the same scope, but if it provides understanding it has done its job.

I have done thermal modeling, structures problems, oscillators, fluid flow, non-linear system optimization and a variety of other problems using spreadsheet tools and the results could be shared by anyone who had excel, and in most cases would work on the Open Office versions.

Simulation snobbery has a lot in common with degree snobbery.

[f5r5e5d]

its not a question of if you can use spreadsheets, if their macro languages are
Turing complete...

... its how much time and effort you waste compared to domain specific software

free Octave is highly Matlab compatible

free SciLab doesn't run .m files without some translation but is still very similar and supported by EU orgs and companies, has Xcos, some openModellica funtionality

I've simmed electromechanical systems including inertia, torsion compliance, gear backlash, nonlinear friction models in free LTspice - electromechanical analogies are great, modern GUI Spice is good too if you use it enough to be familiar with it

a very odd, very general, free sim environment is UC Berkeley's Ptolemy Project


but general purpose can be a good approach - especially if "batteries are included"

Python, Scipy, iPython Notebook, the whole infrastructure is getting very powerful and accessible too

[CatalinaWOW]

I agree that domain specific stuff is better.  But it requires that not only you, but those you are communicating with/training/etc. have access to the software, and more important, the ability to use it.  The ability of free tools helps in many environments, but in large organizations introduction of outside software is often forbidden.  This also happens in small organizations that have had bad experiences with malware.   

Spreadsheets are not a great tool, but virtually everyone in a technical environment is relatively proficient in their use and has an IT approved installation in their computer.

[TheWelly888]

Are engineers all going to end up handling these de-soldering tools like that in the future?! 

[Richard Crowley]

Are engineers all going to end up handling these de-soldering tools like that in the future?! 

Technicians with years of experience with soldering (and de-soldering) gear are able to hold the hot end without burning their fingers.
They have built up heavy scars on their fingers and have de-sensitized themselves to thermal pain.

OTOH, that was a common derision of theoretical types.
That they don't know which end of the soldering iron to hold.

[f5r5e5d]

many sci/tech grad students do have lots of hands on experience - their professors consider their "overtime" even cheaper than salaried engineers

university labs/departments may have paid technicians to run/service complex, expensive equipment - but for their own thesis work grad students may be doing almost everything themselves

that said, it is poor economics for companies to hire PhD and then use them as techs or even BSc level engineers

[CatalinaWOW]

I agree with many here, that many degreed engineers have inadequate practical experience.  But as f5r5e5d points out that is relatively unlikely with a PhD grad.  While their experience may not be broad, they almost all have had to get their hands dirty on their own thesis project and on their advisors grant projects.  Bachelors and Masters are more likely to escape without ever being forced to match theory with reality.  Some schools do really well with lab work, others not so good.

[strangersound]

"Beware an Engineer with a screwdriver!" was only partly a joke!

I like to joke about how engineers design things and contractors redesign them so they'll actually work. If you've worked in construction fields, you've probably encountered these type of situations. Just because it worked on paper (or screen), doesn't mean the folks out in the field can actually build this fourth dimensional object on the blueprints.

Reminds me of my time in the service. We'd be out in the field with these 1st and 2nd Lt's and typically you always said "Yes, sir" to whatever nonsense fell out of their mouths, knowing full well you had no intention of doing what this clown just suggested. Our communications unit listened to an order from a 1st Lt once...just that one time and we regretted it. We knew better, but we figured he suggested it, so why not. Never again did we listen to that guy.

I never understood the concept of the commissioned officers being in charge of the non-commissioned ranking members. Like this 20 year old who went to ROTC and West Point with a silver spoon in his mouth and probably couldn't pass a PT test outranks this 1st Sargent who has served multiple terms in multiple warzones. Ok. Wtf? I guess it's the same concept as making the CIC some career politician guy who never even served, let alone in a battlefield.

[IanB]

We could echo this question with what percentage of chemical/process engineers physically handle plant equipment?

In short, only a few of us. If we work hands-on in an actual production facility then we may walk the plant with schematics and a notebook, following pipes and noting instrument readings. But most instrumentation is electronic and we can get the numbers we need from the screens in the control room or from the data logging systems. Then we go back to the office and do design calculations.

For those of us who do not work hands-on, we have an office job. Our work is done with drawings, spec sheets and computers. When we are done, our designs are built and operated by other people. Some of us may have the opportunity of supervising the commissioning process and seeing our designs come to life, but sometimes we advise others and they do that.

If you happen to be an EE working with industrial plant it is going to be just the same story. Switch gear, motors, transformers and the like are not things you are going to take a wrench to.

[strangersound]

PhDs have no idea. Anyone, who spends 8+ years of their life just learning electronics, instead of doing it, is so detached from reality, that their experience is just meaningless. By the time they come out of university, they are spoiled with theory, instead of practice. Then they become like PLC programmers for Siemens, never setting foot in the factory they are programming, living in a cubicle, laughing at the bad jokes of their boss, and hopefully they will become assistant (to the) regional manager be the end of their forties.

But we get Dilbert cartoons, so it's a win.

Technicians with years of experience with soldering (and de-soldering) gear are able to hold the hot end without burning their fingers.
They have built up heavy scars on their fingers and have de-sensitized themselves to thermal pain.

Being a short order cook will do the same.

[jeremy]

If you happen to be an EE working with industrial plant it is going to be just the same story. Switch gear, motors, transformers and the like are not things you are going to take a wrench to.

In my state of Australia (QLD), that's illegal due to our powerful electrician trade union. I think it is more relaxed in other states.

[strangersound]

We could echo this question with what percentage of chemical/process engineers physically handle plant equipment?

Yeah. Computerphile has a video about programming paradigms and the guy, who is obviously a genius in his own right, is talking about how he was humbled the day he realized that there was no way, even as a computer scientist, that he could ever know everything. He was talking about all the layers of programming that go on, and how that only a select few polymaths or such could even begin to try and understand all the layers of programming that go on in a modern computer, from basic kernals, compilers, assembly, and all the languages that go on that make it possible for the program developer to write in C or Java or whatever.

[retrolefty]

We could echo this question with what percentage of chemical/process engineers physically handle plant equipment?

In short, only a few of us. If we work hands-on in an actual production facility then we may walk the plant with schematics and a notebook, following pipes and noting instrument readings. But most instrumentation is electronic and we can get the numbers we need from the screens in the control room or from the data logging systems. Then we go back to the office and do design calculations.

For those of us who do not work hands-on, we have an office job. Our work is done with drawings, spec sheets and computers. When we are done, our designs are built and operated by other people. Some of us may have the opportunity of supervising the commissioning process and seeing our designs come to life, but sometimes we advise others and they do that.

If you happen to be an EE working with industrial plant it is going to be just the same story. Switch gear, motors, transformers and the like are not things you are going to take a wrench to.

 Your summary is/was 100% accurate from the perspective of the large oil refinery I worked at for 28 years. The other aspect was that all new chemical/process/ee/mechanical engineers were almost exclusively hired straight after graduation (with many having worked summers here as paid interns) and given a five years period ("flight plan") to 'prove' their engineering competency and therefore be qualified for promotion to lower management and then their real career starts.

 The company always promoted from within, and every CEO during my tenure (4 or 5) started as a chemical engineer right out of University. Bottom line is that it wasn't a good place for someone loving to do engineering but rather was good for those wanting a management career. It was OK because the company didn't hire many MBA types at all which is the management stock input of many or most other industries. Engineers can become great managers, I saw too many grow up there to not believe that.

[rrinker]

Are engineers all going to end up handling these de-soldering tools like that in the future?! 

Technicians with years of experience with soldering (and de-soldering) gear are able to hold the hot end without burning their fingers.
They have built up heavy scars on their fingers and have de-sensitized themselves to thermal pain.

OTOH, that was a common derision of theoretical types.
That they don't know which end of the soldering iron to hold.

 This explains a lot. Before I was born, my Mom worked in a factory assembling transformers. When I started building actual electronic kits as a kid, she wouldn't let me use a soldering iron, and did the soldering for me. After she burned my fingers for the umpteenth time, I had enough, I was going to start soldering for myself. I can burn my own fingers, thank you very much.

[zapta]

Wtf? I guess it's the same concept as making the CIC some career politician guy who never even served, let alone in a battlefield.

Military reporting to an elected civilian is a good thing.

[AF6WL]

Still very much hands on:

Working on the design of RF systems, transceiver circuits and control logic.
Digital and RF : LF to >20GHz with SMT parts QFNs and BGAs and down to 0201 ( quite easy to work with - under the microscope )
That involves everything from architecture, simulation and CAD design to hand soldering and modifications thru test measurement and automation.

Tools of the trade :
Stacks of test equipment - like you would not believe, Stereo microscope, tweezers, Swann Morton scalpels, Metcal irons (being able to solder with both hands simultaneously an essential skill), hot air pencil and pre-heater.

[Galenbo]

I have done thermal modeling, structures problems, oscillators, fluid flow, non-linear system optimization and a variety of other problems using spreadsheet tools and the results could be shared by anyone who had excel, and in most cases would work on the Open Office versions.

Beautiful. Next step is to do pcb design, create a CAD vector file and do some microcontroller programming with excel.
I'm sure you can :-)

[Smokey]

I have done thermal modeling, structures problems, oscillators, fluid flow, non-linear system optimization and a variety of other problems using spreadsheet tools and the results could be shared by anyone who had excel, and in most cases would work on the Open Office versions.

Beautiful. Next step is to do pcb design, create a CAD vector file and do some microcontroller programming with excel.
I'm sure you can :-)

I prefer MS Paint. 

Really though, I love getting in and playing with actual hardware.  If I'm going crazy on some design problem I'll sometimes go take a break and do some production stuff with the techs.  Having actual physical things that you can pick up play with was one of the big reasons I didn't end up getting just a computer science degree.

[tszaboo]

PhDs have no idea. Anyone, who spends 8+ years of their life just learning electronics, instead of doing it, is so detached from reality, that their experience is just meaningless. By the time they come out of university, they are spoiled with theory, instead of practice. Then they become like PLC programmers for Siemens, never setting foot in the factory they are programming, living in a cubicle, laughing at the bad jokes of their boss, and hopefully they will become assistant (to the) regional manager be the end of their forties.

But we get Dilbert cartoons, so it's a win.

Oh, no! Dilbert covers the "practical" side of engineering also.
Don't mistake me, to a hard hat sleeves up engineer. I'm just practical, and I prefer practical jobs and people with that mindset. We will see how I will cope with the others, as I will be managing very soon some university projects from company side. And it is not even electronics, but electrical.
Yes, I think people without actual hand-on experience are worse engineers. Because something not only has to "just work", it has to pass Design For Testability, Design For Manufacturability, Design For Repair and Upgrade. And no matter how much theory people will read about it, it all comes down to actual common sense, not just numbers. I dont think anyone can design a PCBA for production, without seeing how the production line works, or even working next to a production line for some time. I did, long time ago, just for the kicks. Sure it was a old wavesolder machine, coupled with lots of manual labour, and some reflow but still, it was probably the best experience I could get for DFM, no book or presentation can beat it. I was hunting down production issues that created 0.x% repair work, and translating Standard Operation Plans, disassembling PCBAs to measure every single component for the right value, optimizing throughput, by evening out manual labour.
If you want to be a better designer, get a temporary job in a factory. You will not regret it.

[dannyf]

" This seemed extremely counter-intuitive to me,"

It makes perfect sense. Just look at the fortunes of firms that market electronic cad packages over the last few decades.

[retrolefty]

Wtf? I guess it's the same concept as making the CIC some career politician guy who never even served, let alone in a battlefield.

Military reporting to an elected civilian is a good thing.

yes, I would even call it a feature.