Author Topic: Where could one find a decent priced spectrum analyzer in EU, am I just unluck ?  (Read 9569 times)

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Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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 Hello all, I'm soooo frustrated  |O this community, youtube and generally Internet is full of stories following the same pattern:

"Hi all, I was very afraid that paying 500EUR for this cool colour screen SA with tracking generator from 2KHz to 26GHz will prove to be a disaster, because looky here, there is dust in the fan and a 2dB nelinearity at over 5GHz, the bloody seller said that it works, will I ever be able to repair it, oh yesss I do, after I've replaced two leaking capacitors and cleaned a switch is all perfect. And I've also installed two blue LEDs... Also the seller had 5 of them and I got them all, to use them as spares and for experiments, no I'm not selling any, thanks for your support."


And I want to have a decent SA with TG for a budget of around 1.5KEUR, NO MATTER HOW defective, as long as it's repairable and in the whole bloody EU there is nothing, nothing, fleabay is full of overpriced crap or destroyed beyond any chance of repair, the ever present Chinese shite, that is both miserable AND overpriced, same for all the local classifieds and börse.

Of course in US/Israel there is an abundance of crazy cheap and good quality stuff, but the transportation will kill it and German Zollamt (customs)  will anally rape you ( "do you claim that this old dusty defective device is 500USD only, zeeer funny, now letz have a look in our price list and pay the VAT and customs, what, the transportation price is also included, danke for asking...). I know because I've bought my scope form Israel.

So bottom line, measurement gear addicts from EU (Germany especially), where could one buy a decent SA with TG, no matter how damaged is, I can repair almost everything, as long as I get spares for unfixable things, I'm devilishly good with a soldering iron, rework station and microscope ???

Please help a poor addict with his addiction.



 
 

Offline HalFET

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You rarely hear about the ones that are hopeless I fear. More than a few cases are impossible to repair. But which sort of frequency range do you need, and how good of a spectrum analyser? The rigol clearance sale has a few spectrum analysers at the moment: https://www.rigol.eu/clearance/  Also most of the newbies who go out buying spectrum analysers only stick to HP, but you should check the other brands as well: Rohde & Schwarz, Aeroflex/Marconi, Anritsu, ...

Just a quick search:
Nice wide band Anritsu for 1700 EUR: https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Anritsu-Spektrum-Analysator-MS2602A-100Hz-bis-8-5GHz-mit-Manuals/263305092773
Repaired 3 GHz Anritsu: https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/ANRITSU-MS2651B-Analizzatore-di-spettro-Spectrum-analyzer/172959678172
Portable 3 GHz Anritsu: https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Anritsu-MS2711D-Spectrum-Analyzer-100kHz-to-3GHz-w-Opt-3-Color-21-Transmission/232389960954
Portable 8GHz R&S for 1500 EUR: http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-FSH8-Spectrum-Analyzer-9Khz-8Ghz/182924721561
Advantest 2.2 GHz: https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Advantest-U4941-RF-Field-Analyzer-9kHz-2-2GHz-Spectrum-Analyzer-50-Ohm/391915263726
Advantest: http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/ADVANTEST-Digital-Spectrum-Analyzer-TR9403-ADVANTEST-Signal-Generator-TR-98202/111974919126
Advantest 2.2 GHz: http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Advantest-U4941-Spectrum-RF-Field-Analyzer-9-kHz-to-2-2-GHz-EMI-Measurement/161967419463
Advantest 3.5 GHz: https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/ADVANTEST-4131D-Spectrum-Analyzer-10-KHz-3-5-GHz-Analyser/182758979428
Advantest 2.6 GHz: http://www.abex.co.uk/esales/test/advantest/spectrum_analyser/r3361/61720192_s02410/index.php
HP 2.9 GHz: http://www.abex.co.uk/esales/test/hp/spectrum_analyser/8560a/3204a82028_s02727/index.php
Aeroflex 2.7 GHz: http://www.abex.co.uk/esales/test/ifr/spectrum_analyser/2398/02120219_s02742/index.php
Tek: http://www.abex.co.uk/esales/test/tektronix/spectrum_analyser/492p/b041720_s02294/index.php
 

Online Ice-Tea

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You haven't mentioned BW :D (I assume 26.5GHz is not the requirement).

Let's see. I have a HP 8560E with tracking option. Haven't gotten it to output anything decent quite yet, though.

And a R&S CMU 200 with SA (and FG, power meter etc) that's close to your budget. Not sure of it has tracking though.

Online Ice-Tea

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You and me both. Has 002 (tracking) and 007 (better digitized performance) as options, so it should be a sweet piece of kit. Once it works.

Offline chris_leyson

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Hi DC1MC, as you're in Germany maybe try Helmut Singer, www.helmet-singer.de, they might have something in stock that they're not advertising. They've got a hugh inventory of test gear so you never know, I've never purchased anything from them BTW but there is no harm in window shopping.
 

Offline Neganur

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If you're on a budget then Helmut-Singer is not the place to look.

With that out of the way, if customs clearance is too problematic does the global shipping program that Ebay offers take care of the customs so that the item arrives 'deliver duty paid' ?
 

Offline Bashstreet

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Hello all, I'm soooo frustrated  |O this community, youtube and generally Internet is full of stories following the same pattern:

"Hi all, I was very afraid that paying 500EUR for this cool colour screen SA with tracking generator from 2KHz to 26GHz will prove to be a disaster, because looky here, there is dust in the fan and a 2dB nelinearity at over 5GHz, the bloody seller said that it works, will I ever be able to repair it, oh yesss I do, after I've replaced two leaking capacitors and cleaned a switch is all perfect. And I've also installed two blue LEDs... Also the seller had 5 of them and I got them all, to use them as spares and for experiments, no I'm not selling any, thanks for your support."


And I want to have a decent SA with TG for a budget of around 1.5KEUR, NO MATTER HOW defective, as long as it's repairable and in the whole bloody EU there is nothing, nothing, fleabay is full of overpriced crap or destroyed beyond any chance of repair, the ever present Chinese shite, that is both miserable AND overpriced, same for all the local classifieds and börse.

Of course in US/Israel there is an abundance of crazy cheap and good quality stuff, but the transportation will kill it and German Zollamt (customs)  will anally rape you ( "do you claim that this old dusty defective device is 500USD only, zeeer funny, now letz have a look in our price list and pay the VAT and customs, what, the transportation price is also included, danke for asking...). I know because I've bought my scope form Israel.

So bottom line, measurement gear addicts from EU (Germany especially), where could one buy a decent SA with TG, no matter how damaged is, I can repair almost everything, as long as I get spares for unfixable things, I'm devilishly good with a soldering iron, rework station and microscope ???

Please help a poor addict with his addiction.

I do not have any good knowledge of German customs but it sound similar to Finnish customs that can be quite... thorough in its efforts to make your life miserable if they choose to.

Any case if you buy item lets say for 500 euros(or dollars) and the customs attempt to extract from you in duty excess of the item costed based in their "standard item charges" you can most likely challenge this.

If you can give substantial evidence (bill of sale bank records connecting to the item etc) you should be able to get a ruling in your favor.

Best consult your customs and if needed other regulatory systems that exist in Germany.

Good luck !
 

Offline Bashstreet

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I would not patron those recyclers even if I would have a larger budget, WTF, they are taking them from companies that want to recycle them  (so generous, even for free if they are delivered to their door and they're not monitors or batteries, because these can't be resold) and then because is "geprüft" (aka it has been turned on and doesn't caught fire) then kaching, 7K+ for a >25yrs old device, sehr nett, it even has some 3 months (very limited) warranty.
And of course, importing them from the US with fleabay global shipping and tax is nice and hassle free, until you observe that the price is now double AND the custom guys still wants you to visit them and chat with you about what is in the parcel and why do you need it.

I've got my scope from Israel and had those pleasure, bonus, prolly now I'm on few lists as well.

This whole situation is so politically myopic, if somebody buys a piece of (expensive) equipment for its own use, training and experimentation, those should be tax and hassle free, add the tax + a large fine if the item is sold in the next 5yrs, but if it's used to train somebody, let it in for free. And I always hear complaints of the lack of experienced specialists and the young ones that doesn't know too much out of uni, but that's another story.

 So in the end the situation with the online sellers is that they're pretty much dry in EU, so does anybody wants to part of a nice SA with TG for a reasonable price ?

The thing is U.S is do not have free trade deal with EU nor do Israel hence you pay duty...

Inconvenient as it is for you and me there are reasons for this.

Political bs as usual + everyone is trying to protect their markets what can be sensible.. if we had free trade deal with no duty with China all manufacturing that is left would dissapear from EU U.S
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 06:32:16 pm by Bashstreet »
 

Online Ice-Tea

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It has nothing to do with 'protecting a market'. That makes it sound as if you delberatly make it harder for foreign traders. It is the other way around: take a 1000€ unit. Bought inside the EU, you will pay VAT (as you do with everything) and it will end up costing you 1200€. Buy it outside the EU and the seller will not charge VAT, so you just pay 1000€. That's a rather unfair advantage. So the applicable VAT is charged at entry.

Only problem sometimes are the rather exhorbitant fee carriers charge to do the paperwork for you.

Offline nctnico

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I'm now waiting for the inevitable "You don't need a TG, you can use a noise source and the results are similar or even better...", I swear to God, if I hear this crap once more I'll hunt down the basterd and stick his noise generator where sun don't shine  >:D
It greatly depends on where you want to use the tracking generator for. There is a reason so many spectrum analysers don't have a tracking generator and IMHO it is because it doesn't have much practical use. If you are tuning antennas or filters then you also want to know how much the DUT is too inductive or too capacitive so you know which components and values you need to fix it. IOW: a network analyser will be way more usefull for those kind of measurements than a spectrum analyser + tracking generator. The latter will only tell you the DUT isn't good but not how to fix it.

Another option is to use a seperate RF generator which can do stepped sweeps. That will be way slower but then you'll also have an RF generator which usually has a calibrated output level and modulation.

BTW: A new Siglent SSA3000X is in your budget as well and if you hack it, is can do 3.2GHz (IIRC).
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 06:59:06 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Bashstreet

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It has nothing to do with 'protecting a market'. That makes it sound as if you delberatly make it harder for foreign traders. It is the other way around: take a 1000€ unit. Bought inside the EU, you will pay VAT (as you do with everything) and it will end up costing you 1200€. Buy it outside the EU and the seller will not charge VAT, so you just pay 1000€. That's a rather unfair advantage. So the applicable VAT is charged at entry.

Only problem sometimes are the rather exhorbitant fee carriers charge to do the paperwork for you.

I think you are confusing internal taxation and customs duty.

They are not same thing..

Internal taxation trough VAT and other taxes is internal process after product has entered the country/trade area.

Duty taxation is tax taken from value of product brought to the internal market.

You cannot bring items without paying tax to internal markets without trade deals (IE free trade deals)
 

Offline Bashstreet

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Hi Bashstreet, I thought that you're German, because this is the exact same argument that I'm hearing from my German colleagues, I'm not talking here about generally canceling the tariffs and opening the unlimited hi-tech industy trade without any protection whatsoever of the local industry.

I'm really talking about giving some advantages to the people that want to improve their training, eventually invent or innovate something and for this are willing to spend good money on equipment and materials, don't treat them like bloody for profit companies, by imposing VAT, oversized customs tax and so on but give exemptions for personal non-profit use. Impose some rules with stiff fines and this is it.
Treat them no like a missed opportunity for taxation, but like an investment in eduction and a increasing the country's cadre of specialists, the same way Bill Gates did with Windows and other Microsoft software, and let it be pirated to have people already familiar with it.
The people that spend this kind of money for some very niche equipment are really passionate of what they're doing and need to be helped and eventually even stimulated, not treated like they're get rich because they bought an old Aniritsu junker.
And if Germany for example could have a 100 pages law about the size, position and content of the ink stamps for beef meat, they sure can find a way to legislate this and curb the abuses.

Your perspective is purely self profiting and narrow.

This is common to us all as we only think of out potential benefits.

Countries and governments cannot act such way .

If everyone had possibility to buy items without any duty or tax from countries with substantially cheaper manufacturing costs it would be end of any last vestiges of manufacturing in Europe/U.S

These limitations exist to protect the financial interests of countries/trade areas.

Much as we like to think my one little piece of equipment wont make a change it does as everyone else would then have same rights.

Now should there be some exemptions sure and i believe there are.
 

Online Ice-Tea

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It has nothing to do with 'protecting a market'. That makes it sound as if you delberatly make it harder for foreign traders. It is the other way around: take a 1000€ unit. Bought inside the EU, you will pay VAT (as you do with everything) and it will end up costing you 1200€. Buy it outside the EU and the seller will not charge VAT, so you just pay 1000€. That's a rather unfair advantage. So the applicable VAT is charged at entry.

Only problem sometimes are the rather exhorbitant fee carriers charge to do the paperwork for you.

I think you are confusing internal taxation and customs duty.

They are not same thing..

Internal taxation trough VAT and other taxes is internal process after product has entered the country/trade area.

Duty taxation is tax taken from value of product brought to the internal market.

You cannot bring items without paying tax to internal markets without trade deals (IE free trade deals)

*Shrugs* Pretty sure tariff for US T&M gear entering the EU is 0%. So, for all intents and purposes we are talking about the VAT equivalent charge that is imposed when entering the EU free marker zone.

Offline Bashstreet

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It has nothing to do with 'protecting a market'. That makes it sound as if you delberatly make it harder for foreign traders. It is the other way around: take a 1000€ unit. Bought inside the EU, you will pay VAT (as you do with everything) and it will end up costing you 1200€. Buy it outside the EU and the seller will not charge VAT, so you just pay 1000€. That's a rather unfair advantage. So the applicable VAT is charged at entry.

Only problem sometimes are the rather exhorbitant fee carriers charge to do the paperwork for you.

I think you are confusing internal taxation and customs duty.

They are not same thing..

Internal taxation trough VAT and other taxes is internal process after product has entered the country/trade area.

Duty taxation is tax taken from value of product brought to the internal market.

You cannot bring items without paying tax to internal markets without trade deals (IE free trade deals)

*Shrugs* Pretty sure tariff for US T&M gear entering the EU is 0%. So, for all intents and purposes we are talking about the VAT equivalent charge that is imposed when entering the EU free marker zone.

I do not think "pretty sure" cuts the cheese.

Back up your claim that there is no tariff for U.S T&M gear entering Europe from U.S  :bullshit:
 


Offline nctnico

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Even if there is a import tariff then IIRC it is between 0 and 1.5% so all in all it is not going to drive the price of a piece of equipment up significantly. I buy test equipment from allover the world and in my experience the paperwork has to be right. This means an invoice has to be included which states the brand and model number.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Ice-Tea

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Also: slightly more on-topic: just finally got that 8590E up and running. The solution? Set the trigger to 'free run'  :-DD

Offline DC1MCTopic starter

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Hey IceT, congratulations, how much did you pay for it if you can share with us ?
 

Online Ice-Tea

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Heheh, bluntly: no, I can't share it. I buy this stuff a) because I like to play around with cool gear and b) because I like to sell stuff and make a profit. Proclaiming the 'bought for' price kinda gets in the way of the second part.

Online Ice-Tea

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Whu?  :o Blue LEDs? You kinda lost me there.... I'l send you a PM with a proposal.

Offline Bashstreet

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Well that's great if you do not need to pay any duty for oscilloscopes ! shame about VAT... 20%
 

Offline Freelander

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Hi Bashstreet, I thought that you're German, because this is the exact same argument that I'm hearing from my German colleagues, I'm not talking here about generally canceling the tariffs and opening the unlimited hi-tech industy trade without any protection whatsoever of the local industry.

I'm really talking about giving some advantages to the people that want to improve their training, eventually invent or innovate something and for this are willing to spend good money on equipment and materials, don't treat them like bloody for profit companies, by imposing VAT, oversized customs tax and so on but give exemptions for personal non-profit use. Impose some rules with stiff fines and this is it.
Treat them no like a missed opportunity for taxation, but like an investment in eduction and a increasing the country's cadre of specialists, the same way Bill Gates did with Windows and other Microsoft software, and let it be pirated to have people already familiar with it.
The people that spend this kind of money for some very niche equipment are really passionate of what they're doing and need to be helped and eventually even stimulated, not treated like they're get rich because they bought an old Aniritsu junker.
And if Germany for example could have a 100 pages law about the size, position and content of the ink stamps for beef meat, they sure can find a way to legislate this and curb the abuses.

Your perspective is purely self profiting and narrow.

This is common to us all as we only think of out potential benefits.

Countries and governments cannot act such way .

If everyone had possibility to buy items without any duty or tax from countries with substantially cheaper manufacturing costs it would be end of any last vestiges of manufacturing in Europe/U.S

These limitations exist to protect the financial interests of countries/trade areas.

Much as we like to think my one little piece of equipment wont make a change it does as everyone else would then have same rights.

Now should there be some exemptions sure and i believe there are.

Yes, the exceptions should be that brexit voters pay ALL duty, while 'sensible' people who did not vote brexit pay none.. :-DD - too many PC isolationist nutters about  :palm: - trump - cough ...  :P |O -
The ideal is to live in a country that lives far far beyond' it's means by running a totally unnecessarily HUGE military budget.. (Nuclear weapons and boomers v Stanley knives and the 'Stanley' wins ::)) .
That means the US really,, ex mil stuff is usually excellent. Israel also has a HUGE military (but get the yanks to pay for it) hence they have a HUGE surplus market. ^-^
Gone are the days where the UK Mil Surplus market is booming.  >:( . When the forces used to swap out you could get great gear - same with GCHQ.. now ? - beggar all really.

There should be absolutely no issue with imports of used gear. It should be a really straight forward process. Unfortunately in certain so called democracies there are too many 'jobsworth' customs officials.
It is really strange that here in Portugal I can get a FedEx overnight package from AD Singapore with 'sample only' and no value stated and it BYPASSESS customs entirely - NEVER anything to pay even if the 'samples' enclosed are valued at over 200 USD ! .!!!. I am sure could get a brick of dope sent the same way and I am sure it would still be waved through - it is fedex -- Woowooowowooo ... All bow to fedex in the customs department (probably back handers) :'(. Actually - it goes to a 'private' customs unit - run by - yes, you guessed it - fedex......
However, get anything weighing over 1kg from China and customs will never believe the value. You have to send ALL details. They wanted a full copy of a bank statement for one item that was less than 25 Euro. I sent them a screen grab with ALL details redacted apart from the one line referring to the item. They wanted an original full copy of the whole sheet !  jokers ! I told them to go and whistle as they have absolutely no right to look at anything from my bank statements apart from what I chose to not redact. Send it back I told them - (they have to pay - not me)  8) .. it arrived next day......
Another time they wanted a web LINK to a commercial invoice. Try to explain to these jokers that they CANNOT have one as it is linked via YOUR account. Maybe some nutters here give them their logon details and password and also drop them a few quid for beer - it is a joke. They scratch their arses for a bit and then think - oh yeah - I can't use the link because I need to be logged on, so they ask for a screen shot - and you have to mail them 3 or 4 times pointing them BACK to the ORIGINAL screenshot you sent them. A total farce. HUGE amount of customs people employed though ......................  :--
If you want anything sent to portugal just send it fedex. they will probably polish it and re-cap it as they whisk it through. Sounds like the German customs are taught in the same school of Jobsworths................  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 08:43:30 pm by Freelander »
 

Offline Kilo Tango

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http://madb.europa.eu/madb/euTariffs.htm?productCode=903020&country=US


well its obvious init, " Whereas this examination showed that the apparatus in question is a spectrum analyzer; whereas it does not have the requisite objective characteristics making it specifically suited to scientific research; whereas in particular the great precision and the stability of the obtained measurement results cannot confer upon it this character; ....... "

However this applies to an HP 8568A, doesn't say about other models.

So the last couple of spec analysers I got from the States I was charged the VAT and that's all. Mind you I am using them for research so .....

What a load of .....

Ken
 

Offline HalFET

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You haven't mentioned BW :D (I assume 26.5GHz is not the requirement).

Let's see. I have a HP 8560E with tracking option. Haven't gotten it to output anything decent quite yet, though.

And a R&S CMU 200 with SA (and FG, power meter etc) that's close to your budget. Not sure of it has tracking though.
R&S provided PC software that allows you to do it over GPIB, but it ain't very quick.

Thank you HalFET for your reply and the effort you put in your search.
Unfortunately, it just confirmed my rant, there are NO decent SA with TG available in EU for a 1.5K budget, because if we filter your list for:

(price <= 1.5K EUR) && (NO Chinese crap) && (Must have TG), the we've got a nothing burger   |O.

I did saved a new site and I'll try to search fleabay for Analizzatore di Spectro  ::), maybe something will show up.

Honorable (sad) mentions:
- Rigol junk SA marketed for "hobbysts and IoT passionates", almost no usable feature.
- One of the oldies has in the specs: "Frequency accuracy 100KHz for less than 2GHz"  :palm:
- I don't want to pay thousands extra for half-baked repairs.

I'm now waiting for the inevitable "You don't need a TG, you can use a noise source and the results are similar or even better...", I swear to God, if I hear this crap once more I'll hunt down the basterd and stick his noise generator where sun don't shine  >:D

Given that you didn't quite specify what you need exactly it's difficult to cater to your needs. A regular spectrum analyser + white noise source would probably do if you just want a tracking generator. The CMU200 for example is quite full-featured, BUT it's a nightmare to use since for half of those features you need to control it over GPIB.
 

Offline dmills

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Look also for 'radio communications test sets' these often have a spectrum analyser as part of the functionality and can sometimes be quite usable.
Lots of these are really designed for cell phone work, but they often extend down to the nearly DC bands as well, Marconi and Anritsu are the common ones over here.

There was that fire sale on brand new Aeroflex/Cobham units here 6 months or so back, the low end of which IIRC fit your budget? Might be worth giving the vendor a ring and seeing what may still be available.

For stuff in Germany, there is always Friedrichshafen in March, but some of the asking prices are really silly, you have to haggle....

Finally, run searches without the "Tracking generator" you sometimes see kit where the seller clearly is not an RF type and does not understand that second socket.

Regards, Dan.
 


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