Why are Western companies getting offline power supplies designed in China?

[ocset]

We all know manufacturing is cheaper in China than say UK. However, if you get an offline  power supply designed in China, then you have to pay them for the maintenance of it as components go obsolete with time. Also, if your Chinese supplier hikes the price up, then you have to pay…whereas if you hold the design data yourself (eg transformer winding specs, BOM, gerbers, PCB tooling, stencil,   and schematic etc etc), then you are free to take the design elsewhere to be manufactured if  your Chinese supplier  decides  to hike up the price.
So in other words, getting a design done in UK , is cheaper than doing it in China……so why is virtually the whole of the west (especially UK) getting design done in China?

[jpanhalt]

1) Cheaper
2) More reliable and efficient
3) Faster

Pick two.

[tautech]

Buy an extra Asian SMPS.
Reverse engineer it, schematics, xformers, layout, the whole shebang !
Get a quote to have it built locally....................

[mikeselectricstuff]

Local supply chain  - access to ICs that only come with Chinese data, locally made custom magnetics etc.

Paying for occasional redesign for obsolete parts is still going to be cheaper than doing it outside China, assuming quantities are significant.

[dmills]

Also, jellybean power supplies are boring, they are exactly the sort of thing that you sub out because once they are good enough they add nearly no value to your products.

Given the trouble we have hiring competent design folks, I would far rather they be spending their time doing the stuff our customers care about rather then fucking about getting some random flyback thru certification.

Contrary to popular belief the far eastern vendors can design and build a perfectly good power supply (Just don't tell them that you only want to pay $5), and if you get someone like say Meanwell to lightly customise one of their standard parts the quality will be fine and they are quite prepared to play at volumes of only a thousand a year.

[ocset]

Given the trouble we have hiring competent design folks

Thanks, this is  because people are not coming into electronics in the West.
The recommendations of the "Revive (British) Industry campaign" can solve these issues...
https://massey276.wixsite.com/revive

We need to bring back power supply design to the west......because it is good bread and butter work in electronics which enthuses youngsters that theres work there that they can get into when they qualify...therefore , they are more likely to choose to major in electronics in the first place.

As we know, The skill of making lighting ballasts is “power supply design”.
The impetus to instigate the creation of  power supply designers in the west (via  governement run companies because in UK for example, the private sector is simply not producing anywhere near enough power supply designers) is that it is cheaper to design power supplies in the west than in China……if you get your design done in China, then you do not  hold the design documentation (eg the gerbers, BOM, schematic, tooling for PCB, stencil etc etc)…….therefore, if the Chinese supplier decides to up the price  of the power  supply,  then you have to pay, because you cannot take the design elsewhere because the design docs  are  held by your Chinese supplier.
Another point is the cost of  obselecence management…if a component in the power supply goes obsolete, then you have  to pay the Chinese supplier to manage this…full power supply design skills are needed to replace many obsolete components in a power supply. It is cheaper for a western company to do this itself, than pay the Chinese designers to do it.
This is why the west must seek the means to train up more power supply designers…and other electronics  engineers too.
In UK, the private sector is massively failing to train up enough power supply designers for the uk economy…and therefore uk companies are getting ripped off by  paying for power supply design from China.

[AndyC_772]

Local supply chain  - access to ICs that only come with Chinese data, locally made custom magnetics etc.

This ^^^

I do some jobs which involve designing (or re-designing) consumer products which will ultimately be mass produced in China.

I know my BoM cost will be higher than a Chinese-designed version, because I can only design with parts that exist in western markets, and which have data sheets in English. It's frustrating to know that a £0.90 PIC could be replaced by a £0.35 Chinese microcontroller, but the technical data and developer's tools just aren't available to me.

On the plus side, I know my design is one in which both my customer and I can have greater confidence. We know it's done properly, and should be reliable - but for a consumer product in a competitive market, the cost *is* important, and *is* sometimes the difference between a product which can be made and sold profitably, and one which can't.

[dmills]

Treez, your doing it wrong.

If I commission a power supply from a company (anywhere in the world), I pay them to deliver to a spec, and I (mostly) don't care about the details of which magnetics vendor or mosfet they use, component obsolescence is a risk to them not me, so I don't have to deal with it (This is a pretty good reason to do this actually). 

On the pricing thing, at the end of the day it is just a power supply, if company X puts the price up (or reliability goes down) and I don't like it, nothing stops me shopping the job around, and providing I have gone for something standard-ish (2 inch by 4 inch being a very common form factor for example), there are loads of companies that want by business. 

The only place there is value in power supplies is the high end stuff, and I am not a PSU specialist so will always buy that in, even there the margins are not big enough to make learning to do it myself worth the pain.   

[TimNJ]

I work for a company who designs power supplies in the US and manufacturers in China. I don't know if that's what you mean, but..

1.) Electronics companies, even big ones, don't want to design a custom power supply if they don't have to. They'd rather spend their time and money developing the actual product, and not worrying about safety approvals, electromagnetic emissions, etc. These are tricky things to get right (without a lot of previous experience) and expensive if you don't.

2.) For medium/high volume runs, you can't beat Chinese component pricing. On average, parts of similar quality come out about 4x cheaper than the Western counterpart (at my company).

3.) If your Chinese supplier hikes up the price, change to another Chinese supplier with an equivalent product?

[ocset]

3.) If your Chinese supplier hikes up the price, change to another Chinese supplier with an equivalent product?

Thanks, but if you change supplier, then you have to go through the whole shebang of getting them checked out etc etc......then, 12 months down the line, they too, may  just up the price.

2.) For medium/high volume runs, you can't beat Chinese component pricing. On average, parts of similar quality come out about 4x cheaper than the Western counterpart (at my company).

Thanks, i agree, ...so Western  co's should design the power supply themselves, then send the BOM etc over to china and get them to manufacture it, with the cheaper components, which will be  "same part number" , but just cheaper.

[AndyC_772]

Bear in mind that a power supply is the component that's most likely to cause your product to fail EMC.

"We couldn't get part X, so we substituted Y" is poor consolation when you find the products you've been making are no longer compliant.

"But the new version is still CE marked" is even worse.

With power supplies, more than anything else, you *need* formal change control.

[TimNJ]

True, but I think most companies see this as a risk worth taking. Also, I really haven't really heard of/seen this hypothetical price-hike situation actually happening. Maybe you've experienced it?

[ocset]

Bear in mind that a power supply is the component that's most likely to cause your product to fail EMC.

Thanks, i agree, but we designed a 60W offline flyback, got the prototype PCB ready within 3 weeks, and had put in a minimal AC filter, and got a near-pass first time...as attached.
A bit more minor tweaking and we're through.

I really haven't really heard of/seen this hypothetical price-hike situation actually happening. Maybe you've experienced it?

As the west further looses its power supply design capability, we are going to see price hiking by China........because they know we increasingly cant do it ourselves.
The provision of ridiculously cheap power supplies to the west is hurting China....the reason they take this pain is because they are happy that they are knocking out the west's own design capability...making us dependent on them....ready for us to be really had over by them.

[TimNJ]

2.) For medium/high volume runs, you can't beat Chinese component pricing. On average, parts of similar quality come out about 4x cheaper than the Western counterpart (at my company).

Thanks, i agree, ...so Western  co's should design the power supply themselves, then send the BOM etc over to china and get them to manufacture it, with the cheaper components, which will be  "same part number" , but just cheaper.

Well, maybe. Getting access to the Chinese supply chain isn't so easy for outsiders. I suppose you could hire a Chinese contract manufacturer to handle sourcing of local components for you. But even then, I think there's likely to be complications.

I don't really think a company should design a power supply if it doesn't have to.

[nali]

Given the trouble we have hiring competent design folks

Thanks, this is  because people are not coming into electronics in the West.

Well, some UK folks seem to be doing not too bad - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45821600

[ocset]

Hi,

well, some UK folks seem to be doing not too bad - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45821600

Thanks, talking of UK, none of those companies is UK owned...uk has sold off most of its engineering industry, and stands ready to enter the third world within a decade...
https://massey276.wixsite.com/ukdecline

[rstofer]

Just buy the thing!  Unless it is covered by some kind of national security arrangement, who cares where it comes from?  It's also fallacy to think you can build a one-off thing (pretty much regardless of quantity) cheaper than a company that specializes in building that thing.  In any event, let them incur the overhead costs.

In Silicon Valley, a qualified engineer likely costs about $150k in salary plus 35% in benefits - a little over $200k.  Probably don't want to hire very many of those guys!

Labor and components are the same from the point of view of business management.  They don't want to pay for either one but they especially don't want pension and health care costs on previous employees.  That's why there are so many contract employees in the US.  Getting a 'real' full-time job, with benefits, isn't that easy!

Our labor has priced itself out of the worldwide market.  I'm not suggesting we degrade to 3rd world living standards but we better focus on where we excel:  inventing magic!

The problem is, not everyone is capable of inventing magic.

[ocset]

It's also fallacy to think you can build a one-off thing (pretty much regardless of quantity) cheaper than a company that specializes in building that thing.  In any event, let them incur the overhead costs.

Thanks but in UK, that may not apply, since the Chinese know that we in UK cant design offline power supplies...so they can charge us that  bit more.

Youre right about the specialisation, this is why UK must start a government power supply design company...then they can supply companies with power supplies, and the employees can eventually go out into the economy and work in power supplies for whichever  company needs them.............often, startups for example, arent ready to go over to china for a power supply, as there volumes are not big enough, and the spec is prone to quick change, and  so the power supply skill is needed in house at first......but in uk....we totally lack that.
Other western countries too,  are lapsing like uk...but nowhere near as bad....uk is capitalism gone mad....we sold off  most of our industry to make a quick profit....or somebody did.

I bet that a uk governement run power supply design company could design power supplies for cheaper than a Chinese power supply company....they may of course, end up using  chinese manufacture to make them cheaper...but only chinese manufacture, not chinese design.
In small qtys anyway, China is not cheap.

[coppercone2]

I can see where treez is coming from. SMPS is hard to design and most people don't want to make their own, then you need to deal with a mysterious black box powering your circuit. It's a major PITA to not have SMPS expertise in a company because compliance becomes mysterious.. is it my circuit effecting a SMPS in a weird way? should I buy a new SMPS?

[rstofer]

Youre right about the specialisation, this is why UK must start a government power supply design company...then they can supply companies with power supplies, and the employees can eventually go out into the economy and work in power supplies for whichever  company needs them

Governments are incapable of running companies.  They are not even capable of getting other people to run companies.  Companies produce only when essentially unrestrained.  Profit (and stock options) is a powerful motivator.

Your idea of a Public Works program is fantasy.  It would be like every other government agency where the primary goal is promotion, not production.

[vk6zgo]

Not really a "Western company, but back in the day, when Sony employed a new EE, the Boss said "Send him off to build a new switchmode power supply".

Or, at least, it seemed that way to those of us fixing them.
Each TV or picture monitor had a different design of power supply, with its own peculiarities.
Sanyo, on the other hand, seemed to stick to the same design through thick & thin.

These days, even if Sony make stuff in Japan, they would probably out source the PSU to China, & they would probably be standardised.

[vk6zgo]

Youre right about the specialisation, this is why UK must start a government power supply design company...then they can supply companies with power supplies, and the employees can eventually go out into the economy and work in power supplies for whichever  company needs them

Governments are incapable of running companies.  They are not even capable of getting other people to run companies.  Companies produce only when essentially unrestrained.  Profit (and stock options) is a powerful motivator.

Maybe in the USA, but in other countries, Govt run companies existed for years, running communications, Electricity supplies, water & gas, & other public utilities.

Their managers were Senior Public Servants, & were paid maybe three times the average workers wage, not ten to a hundred times as is common in large private sector companies.
In an orgy of ideological purity, such organisations were sold off at "fire sale" prices, & now it has come back to bite us on the butt, as utility prices skyrocket, & service levels plummet

Now, these "efficient" private sector companies are whinging for government " bail outs"!

Your idea of a Public Works program is fantasy.  It would be like every other government agency where the primary goal is promotion, not production.

In the govt agencies where I worked, promotion was obtained by competitive examinations, & if you then applied for a higher position, after tentatively  being selected, were still subject to challenge by others with equal or better qualifications and/or seniority.
It wasn't a fast process, but it pretty much eliminated cronyism, which can be a problem in large organisations.

After I left the govt, & worked in a private company, I was not on call when a major problem occurred, but headed up to the transmitter & sorted it out.
The Boss commended me, & gave me a (small) raise in pay.
In the Govt. job it would have been "What took you so long?"

We were expected to "go out of our way", simply because we were "Public Servants"!

[Jeroen3]

Youre right about the specialisation, this is why UK must start a government power supply design company...

http://www.epsma.org/ European Power Supplies Manufacturers’ Association (EPSMA)
I know UK an EU are not similar, especially in the coming years, but I found this.

Also, plenty of companies in the EU still design power supplies. Especially medical and very specific ones for trains or military.
But for many of our products, it's just much much cheaper to just buy some Traco Power module instead of adding a year (or more) to your development budget.

[ocset]

I think the area of general power supply design  is not rocket science and so even in the private sector, wages are not astronomical...i dont see the difference between staff working for the government in an engineering company or working for some private owner.
Admittedly, super good  engineers would leave to get more money in the private sector...but thats good, because UK, at least, at the moment , doesnt not have  a private sector involving any power supply design companies...so maybe we will finally get some decent uk owned PSU co's (same to your respective countries)....maybe these super engineers could set up the next dyson, and prevent the UK from dropping toward  third world status, which is what we are doing now.

...and other western  countries seem to be tending toward...though i think the EU and USA see the shambles that is UK and act more wisely.
https://massey276.wixsite.com/ukdecline

But for many of our products, it's just much much cheaper to just buy some Traco Power module instead of adding a year (or more) to your development budget.

Thanks, thats right , you have the luxury of making that choice because you sensibly held on to significant amounts of your industry....so probably you dont need a PSU company to be government run.

[Zero999]

We all know manufacturing is cheaper in China than say UK. However, if you get an offline  power supply designed in China, then you have to pay them for the maintenance of it as components go obsolete with time. Also, if your Chinese supplier hikes the price up, then you have to pay…whereas if you hold the design data yourself (eg transformer winding specs, BOM, gerbers, PCB tooling, stencil,   and schematic etc etc), then you are free to take the design elsewhere to be manufactured if  your Chinese supplier  decides  to hike up the price.
So in other words, getting a design done in UK , is cheaper than doing it in China……so why is virtually the whole of the west (especially UK) getting design done in China?

How is getting a design done in the UK cheaper than doing it in China?

If it's a standard power supply i.e 12V & 5V, then get the power supply as a standard module and leave plenty of room in the case to account for changes in dimensions, then you're free to go to a different supplier, if they hike up the price.

The only time when it might be more cost effective to design one's only power is when it's something bespoke, i.e. highly unusual dimensions, voltage and current limit, but quite often the latter two can be set with trimmer pots or made to order.