Why is it the more I read the EEVblog forum, my expectations of Apple keeps...

[BrianHG]

Why is it the more I read the EEVblog forum, my expectations of Apple keeps getting lower and lower.  I know I started off with Amiga in the second half of the 80s all the way until Commodore's demise and was sad that the head execs at Commodore so well screwed up making investing in new gaming systems instead of advancing the hardware and OS properly.  I then had no choice but to go to MS Windows because of the availability of CAD software and IC compilers, but with Windows lately, I was thinking of taking a serious look into MacOS.  I always had some admiration for Apple being a quality made product, but, thanks to EEVblog which seems to keep on hitting me with a type of sinking feeling that I would be wasting my time learning a new OS from a company which seems to be lowering their standards, locking in their users to a limited ecosystem, software and hardware, except for the top end iPAD, (which might not stay that way for much longer), hardware which is no longer up to par and can no longer compete with a top end PC.

[bd139]

You’ll be disappointed if you buy any modern computers. They’re all just as shit and every vendors wants to own you.

[Ampera]

In a world with a million different use cases and a billion different experience levels, different platforms appeal to different people.

As a techie, I perceive that Apple is there to rip me off, and I don't tend to like it when companies do that to me.

As a person in general, I tend to like to shit on things for the kicks. To me, a fleshed out debate about shit nobody should care about is like a round of gold. It's mentally engaging and relaxing to me.

Even if Apple wasn't a rip, I believe they sell shitty Unix boxes, with their iPhones being locked down way past the point I consider reasonable. It's an entire ecosystem of gimmicks and cuckolding that treats me at least like a sheep that could only possibly want the options that Apple gives to me, and little more.

There is an objective and subjective side to Apple. Objectively, they have been known for selling tech at stupidly high markups, like with some of their recent laptops with honestly sub-par performance compared to other options. Subjectively, you can still like them despite that. I can understand the appeal of an incredibly polished machine, and it's likely why MasterTech's mom likes it so much, because for someone who will only ever browse Facebook, a few web pages, and wants to play candy crush, it's a perfect device with honestly impressive optimizations in many places.

I like to be able to have full control of my machines, and while OS/X isn't locked down, I still consider it a less than perfect option compared to free Unix or Unix-like options such as Linux, Free/Open/NetBSD, and Illumos. That's just my opinion as a techie. I feel more at home with those systems, and it just doesn't seem as bloated and weird to me, unlike OS/X.

Don't get me wrong, I own an older Mac, and I do wish to collect them, as I enjoy their place in history, and their technology, but they don't offer me a compelling reason, and they have shown plenty of instances of anti-consumer practices like refusing to repair devices, restricting app support on mobile platforms, and releasing very questionable updates that hinder some devices. So when I engage in a conversation, combined with all these elements, subjective, objective, and personal, I tend to get a bit crusader like.

I do however like a a quote from Benjamin "Yahtzee" Crosshaw. 

"It's worth remembering that all reviews are subjective, personal opinions, and if you've personally enjoyed a game, then they really shouldn't get to you. Unless, of course, there's a despicable, little, niggling doubt in the back of your mind, that maybe you're not having as much fun as you've convinced yourself you're having."

That talks about game reviews, and while this is a pub debate on an EE forum, I believe the same lesson applies. If you're talking about the best device to use, people are only ever going to give you their personal opinions, and Apple has the kind of history that can make people get very strong and unruly personal opinions, however if you're convinced that the device you are using is the best for you, then none of it should matter, and you shouldn't feel attacked. It does go the other way, people crusading over their personal favourites, outside of just pure debate for the fun of it to compare intellectual standpoints, can often get a bit to involved in something that doesn't really matter a whole lot.

[bd139]

I think after watching all the shitposting, a massive problem is that the usual comparisons you see are very childish and have no basis in experience. They seem to be based on seeking confirmation of the opinion which is based on poorly formed data by people seeking confirmation of opinions.

However the figure of merit of any technology is simply the ability to solve a specific class of problem which is relevant to the user. Most of the other concerns are entirely ancillary and irrelevant to that factor, yet those are the facets which are attacked.

Productivity and fungibility is king. I'll run rings around anyone on any platform. But not if I'm sitting here contributing to pointless threads. Bye

[Elasia]

Only thing of apple i really liked was the iphone series pre 8, for corporate phones they worked awesome.  nice walled garden.. very little to worry about malware wise... cisco vpn tech just worked.. although android is well caught up now but still weak to malware

Current phones... not so much now that they brick phones for using knockoff screens, that and their over all circuit board quality is pretty rough across the board.  like anything else, just depends what you do with it and expect from it.  I wouldnt recommend any apple products anymore if you expect them to last.

[GreyWoolfe]

I have an iPhone 7 as a company phone.  As a wireless hotspot for my company laptop when I need it, it performs quite well and is surprisingly fast, even working through VPNs like I have to.  It allows me to do my job, with my other tools, quite efficiently.  That said, I don't think I would own one personally.  I simply prefer Android and have a Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge as my personal phone and I am very happy with it.  I like the feel of it in my hand, the larger screen than the iPhone 7 for my old eyes and I like how easy it is to add my custom ringtones to it.  The iPhone was a challenge.  It might be petty, but I don't want to keep looking at my phone, when someone else nearby has the same ringtone as me.  Happened all the time with the iPhone until I figured out how to do it.  I have also used Samsung phones for way longer than a company iPhone.  I switched to Samsung phones after my last Palm Treo 650

I personally have no dog in the fight as far as Apple and the right to repair issue.  That said, just from the standpoint that I can repair any windows workstation or laptop that I have is much more appealing to me than a laptop that has everything glued down or riveted in place.  I haven't done field service in the private sector for a long time now.  When I was doing Dell/Compaq/Lexmark and 3rd party warranty work, I touched exactly 1 Mac, a PowerMac G4 workstation.  I had to do a processor swap for a gentleman who was a graphic designer.  His confidence was somewhat rattled when I asked him how to open the case.  I was able to figure out the swap from there, the computer worked fine and he was very happy.  If my vague memory serves me correctly, I seem to remember him turning on the monitor and the computer turned on, or maybe it was the other way around.  Either way, I thought that was very cool.

There are always going to be rabid fanboys for or against a product.  It does make it hard to decide what to buy.  Especially when it comes to Apple, the noise floor rises quite a bit.

[Halcyon]

You've probably noticed that I'm not a fan of Apple products. I generally talk about the hardware. When something is poorly designed, it's poorly designed, full stop. Software on the other hand is subjective. While I'm not a fan of OSX, some people love it for their own reasons and that's fine. Saying a particular OS or program is bad is like saying the colour blue is shit. It might be to me, but not to you, so I stay out of the "OS wars".

On to the hardware...

For starters, Apple devices are expensive for what they are. You're essentially paying for the brand and their design.

In my opinion their design isn't all that great either. Forget opening them up to repair or upgrade components yourself. It's been made deliberately difficult. Most of their devices are glued together and/or use Pentalobe security screws. Then, if you do get inside without breaking anything, components such as the RAM and SSD's are soldered to the board.

Also, don't fall into the trap thinking that just because the chassis is made of metal, that it's sturdy and strong, it's not. Some of the older devices were built well, but not all.

One of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen is on the Magic Mouse 2. Some "genius" at Apple decided it would be a great idea to stick the lightning port (used for charging) on the base of the mouse, so if your mouse dies, you simply can't use it while it charges. They also moved the optical sensor from the center of the mouse to the top edge, so if you're using it on a surface like a mouse pad or some other kind of mat, it's very easy to "overrun" the top edge and it stops tracking.

There is a long list of common faults with various Apple devices caused by either poor quality components or incorrect component choice. You only have to watch a few of Louis Rossmann's videos (who repairs Apple products for a living) to see how badly designed some of them really are.

That being said, not all Apple products have these issues. They do make some half-decent products. However if you're happy spending almost AUD$5000 on a Mac Pro which is essentially just a Xeon-based PC that looks like a trash can, then knock yourself out.

I don't like Apple computers mainly because I can build a PC with equal or better specs for less cost, with better build quality, I can upgrade anything I want inside and I'm not locked into Apple's ecosystem and their way of thinking. I don't like their tablets and phones because they are too restrictive both in terms of hardware and operating system.

Sure, I get accused of being an Apple "hater" or of "Apple bashing", but I really don't care. My opinions and experiences are perfectly valid and until Apple pick up their game, they won't change my mind. You'll always get those who are brand loyal, I'm not. I buy whatever product is good at the time and suits my needs. Since at least 2000, Apple hasn't made a product that satisfies my requirements.

[Elasia]

You've probably noticed that I'm not a fan of Apple products. I generally talk about the hardware. When something is poorly designed, it's poorly designed, full stop. Software on the other hand is subjective. While I'm not a fan of OSX, some people love it for their own reasons and that's fine. Saying a particular OS or program is bad is like saying the colour blue is shit. It might be to me, but not to you, so I stay out of the "OS wars".

I grew up on FreeBSD 1.x and still use it to this day... that said i do have a softspot for osx since its a fork..ish and a lot of shared code / utilities

[Ampera]

I grew up on FreeBSD 1.x and still use it to this day... that said i do have a softspot for osx since its a fork..ish and a lot of shared code / utilities

Then, please, for god's sake tell me how the hell you install nVidia's graphics driver. I wasn't for the life of me able to figure it out, and not a single resource worked correctly.

[Elasia]

I grew up on FreeBSD 1.x and still use it to this day... that said i do have a softspot for osx since its a fork..ish and a lot of shared code / utilities

Then, please, for god's sake tell me how the hell you install nVidia's graphics driver. I wasn't for the life of me able to figure it out, and not a single resource worked correctly.

I use it mostly in vms and in a server capacity... its never been the greatest at the latest graphics card support...  my main client is w10 modified to strip all the preloaded malware courtesy of microsoft /puke

[JoeN]

I was an Atari 800 teenager and then went to the PC, with a little bit of playing with Linux, and a professional CS degree using IBM 370 compatibles as our academic architecture.  I always have liked Apple, but perceived them as a ripoff.  The Atari 800 was better at a lot of things (other than no cool expansion bus) compared to the Apple 2, and far cheaper.  The PC was wildly cheaper than the Mac, there was only a short window when Macs had 24 bit color for a couple of years before it was universally adopted on the PC too where I was quite jealous.  Unfortunately, now I perceive Apple as a toy company.  Really cool toys, but not so much that I would rather pay $800 for their phones as opposed to $229 for mine (Moto G5 Plus).  If they want to keep their toy secrets secret, more power to them.

[Electro Detective]

Why is it the more I read the EEVblog forum, my expectations of Apple keeps getting lower and lower.  I know I started off with Amiga in the second half of the 80s all the way until Commodore's demise and was sad that the head execs at Commodore so well screwed up making investing in new gaming systems instead of advancing the hardware and OS properly. 

I then had no choice but to go to MS Windows because of the availability of CAD software and IC compilers, but with Windows lately, I was thinking of taking a serious look into MacOS. 

I always had some admiration for Apple being a quality made product, but, thanks to EEVblog which seems to keep on hitting me with a type of sinking feeling that I would be wasting my time learning a new OS from a company which seems to be lowering their standards, locking in their users to a limited ecosystem, software and hardware, except for the top end iPAD, (which might not stay that way for much longer), hardware which is no longer up to par and can no longer compete with a top end PC.

You've sussed it out as it is mate     

the apologists avoid pointing out that the Apple mountain expeditions and the current Windows 10 OS lockdown aren't going to do you any favors, now or later 

If your apps work fine in the Windows 7, 8, XP/Vista camp, stick to those if you want to get some work done


Linux is nice to have a go at too, if only to get your feet wet

it costs nothing to try, should work with most PCs, less/no hardware upgrade BS to think about,

and lots less spinning beachballs of death to avoid   

[Halcyon]

[andyturk]

However if you're happy spending almost AUD$5000 on a Mac Pro which is essentially just a Xeon-based PC that looks like a trash can, then knock yourself out.

I've got a trash can Pro on my desk now. Had it since they came out (2013) and just recently upgraded it with more RAM and SSD. It's dead quiet, doesn't blink at night, buzz, vibrate, collect dust or get in my way. It's a computing appliance that's worked non-stop for several years now. (I do wish it had more USB ports though).

Why Apple? Well, I like having a Unix under the hood and a UI that's generally professional. I end up spending most of my time in emacs (for development) and Windows (yuck!) via a VM, so the Apple-specific applications don't carry much weight. The only Apple software that's mission critical for me is Time Machine (an automatic backup system) which has saved my bacon on multiple occasions.

Apple costs more, sure, but I really don't care. I spend countless hours in front of the 27" Thunderbolt Display that goes with it (used to be two displays) so I might as well get what I want. If it cost double what I paid, it would still be "worth it" compared to kludgy PC clones.

[Ampera]

I personally run Server 2016, which may be my last version of Windows unless something seriously changes. It's an alright version, but it still doesn't fix NT's numerous downfalls compared to the wonderful world of Unix/Linux.

It seriously makes me wish that Windows would just go away, because Linux on desktop is such a dream experience, but the of course downfall is the software support. There are alternatives for many things, but as a person who enjoys a good video game, I always have to switch into a native Windows environment whenever Wine decides to not work.

It's a case of, do you want software support or do you want a decent operating experience?

[Halcyon]

I'm actually in the market for a new laptop. I just did a quick comparison on Apple vs. Lenovo's offerings (price in Australian Dollars).



The Lenovo, despite being almost the same size as the Macbook, also comes with a full numeric keypad.

I also did a comparison between a fully optioned-up Macbook Pro and what you get in a Lenovo for the same kind of money (the Lenovo also had more options you could choose to increase the specs even further, you could even add a touch screen if you wanted).

[PartialDischarge]

I'm actually in the market for a new laptop. I just did a quick comparison on Apple vs. Lenovo's offerings (price in Australian Dollars).

Sooo quick that it forgets all the stuff included in Macos 
Nevertheless for that comparison to be fair you need to include in the right column the price of a Windows antivirus over all the years of use and the much needed Ctrl-Alt-Del productivity tool:









By the way, that already comes preinstalled with W10 right? 

[glarsson]

I'm actually in the market for a new laptop. I just did a quick comparison on Apple vs. Lenovo's offerings (price in Australian Dollars).

You forgot the most important difference; OS X vs. Windows.

[Halcyon]

I'm actually in the market for a new laptop. I just did a quick comparison on Apple vs. Lenovo's offerings (price in Australian Dollars).

Sooo quick that it forgets all the stuff included in Macos 
Nevertheless for that comparison to be fair you need to include in the right column the price of a Windows antivirus over all the years of use and the much needed Ctrl-Alt-Del productivity tool

If you read my earlier comment, I don't get involve in "OS wars" and which OS is better. You're assuming anyone who buys a PC will actually be running Windows, not so. I actually hate anything newer than Windows 7 and refuse to use it myself.

And yes, this was a quick comparison on the main hardware components, I also left out all the extra bits you can add to some of the Lenovo models such as the ability to add a second hard disk drive, support for a docking station, a touch pad that also has NFC built-in, a smart card reader, backlit keyboard (if that's your thing), an infra-red camera, the ability to add or upgrade RAM by yourself or even that you can hot-swap the external battery if you like.

As for Windows anti virus, it comes free with Windows and actually does a decent job or if you like, you can purchase your favourite package (I prefer ESET personally). I know you Apple guys aren't used to making choices for yourself, you should try it some time.

:-)

[Harb]

I have never worked out why there are so many Haters.......I was once nothing but PC, I then moved onto Mac, with about 30 Machines in the system, and never looked back, never had an issue, not once......to be honest when I have to use a PC because a machine only has PC software I find it ridiculously slow and difficult to deal with.......I definitely don't hate PC, but I need my machines to run without hassle and the Macs do that completely.........I am not a Gamer so cannot comment on that, But All my colleagues in the TV industry are the same.......most are all Mac.
The thing I do notice is that Mac users seem to just use the machine and get the job done, but PC users seem to have a mission to knock Mac's and Mac users.......its really weird and kind of says something in itself. 

[Halcyon]

I have never worked out why there are so many Haters.......I was once nothing but PC, I then moved onto Mac, with about 30 Machines in the system, and never looked back, never had an issue, no once......to be honest when I have to use a PC because a machine only has PC software I find it ridiculously slow and difficult to deal with.......I definitely don't hate PC, but I need my machines to run without hassle and the Macs do that completely.........I am not a Gamer so cannot comment on that, But All my colleagues in the TV industry are the same.......most are all Mac.
The thing I do notice is that Mac users seem to just use the machine and get the job done, but PC users seem to have a mission to knock Mac's and Mac users.......its really weird and kind of says something in itself.

I have to disagree. I don't game either but for the work I do, Apple machines have proven to be unreliable at times. I'm sure some of that comes down to the various bits of software, but the spinning beach ball of death always makes me nervous. In my line of work when Apple is involved, it usually blows the time required to complete the job out by 2 or 3 times.

As for the Television industry, I did some work for Channel Ten in Sydney years ago and their work flow was almost all entirely PC-based. The edit suites were kitted out with HP workstations running Avid software. It seems like most of the big players in the video production game stopped using Apple decades ago. In the audio industry, it seems Apple is still popular (although I had to giggle when I used an Avid mixing desk a few weeks ago and realised it was running Windows).

My bad, I'm sorry, wasn't aware that now Windows includes that feature, haven't used or installed antiviruses in a long time 

Maybe you should. Living in blissful ignorance because "Apple's never get viruses" isn't a good thing.

[GerryBags]

I was an Apple user for graphic design throughout the nineties and early noughties, which is the same period Apple went from being (in my eyes) a great company to a money-grubbing bunch of shitpots. One of the guys who taught me a lot of the technical side of design for litho (as it all was back then) was an Apple Beta tester. He would get sent new OS's, software packages and hardware to test and report back on (occasionally with fixes) a year or two, sometimes longer, before release. By the time the release date came the product was invariably rock-solid.

Then some bright spark must have suggested how much cheaper it would be to copy the MS route to product testing, getting the customers to do it and then release patches to fix.

Then we got the iMac. The worst abuse of all in my experience of those days must be the G4 Cube. The space saving in a small studio with six designers was significant.... and completely outweighed by the two large portable air conditioners that were needed (in the UK!) to stop the stupid cubes from shutting down every five minutes.

I've never owned an iPhone, put it that way.

[wraper]

Sooo quick that it forgets all the stuff included in Macos 

Like this?

[filssavi]

I have never worked out why there are so many Haters.......

Many people hate Apple not because Apple products suck, but because of the creed and greed to money. Not only their hardware are expensive, they also don't allow any third party repairing, and are actively designing in landmines for repairers. Also, their AppStore tips and 3rd party payment policy makes developers very angry.

PCs, on the other hand, due to the lower integration level, has lower technology in them besides just putting the correct things together, hence more players can participate the competition, and hence the very low profit margin.

High profit PCs also F their customers, like MS Surface and Vaio Z series. But most "standard" PCs do not try to stop you from servicing your own computer.

This argument doesn’t make any sense, you don’t like Apple prices or repair policies?
There is a simple solution, don’t buy Apple products full stop

You don’t have to bitch and moan on the internet for that

I don’t like Rolex creed and greed, do I keep shit talking Rolex?

No I just don’t give a s**t.

[Halcyon]

There is a simple solution, don’t buy Apple products full stop

You don’t have to bitch and moan on the internet for that

I've noticed that seems to be a default comment when someone is critical of a particular brand and the counter-arguments have run out, however this thread is specifically about Apple. If you don't give a shit, then don't read it?

For the rest of us who are interested, there is a great deal of experience and expertise here and someone might just learn something.

Even the most inept can figure out that if they don't like something then don't buy it.