Why is it the more I read the EEVblog forum, my expectations of Apple keeps...

[BrianHG]

Why is it the more I read the EEVblog forum, my expectations of Apple keeps getting lower and lower.  I know I started off with Amiga in the second half of the 80s all the way until Commodore's demise and was sad that the head execs at Commodore so well screwed up making investing in new gaming systems instead of advancing the hardware and OS properly.  I then had no choice but to go to MS Windows because of the availability of CAD software and IC compilers, but with Windows lately, I was thinking of taking a serious look into MacOS.  I always had some admiration for Apple being a quality made product, but, thanks to EEVblog which seems to keep on hitting me with a type of sinking feeling that I would be wasting my time learning a new OS from a company which seems to be lowering their standards, locking in their users to a limited ecosystem, software and hardware, except for the top end iPAD, (which might not stay that way for much longer), hardware which is no longer up to par and can no longer compete with a top end PC.

[bd139]

You’ll be disappointed if you buy any modern computers. They’re all just as shit and every vendors wants to own you.

[Ampera]

In a world with a million different use cases and a billion different experience levels, different platforms appeal to different people.

As a techie, I perceive that Apple is there to rip me off, and I don't tend to like it when companies do that to me.

As a person in general, I tend to like to shit on things for the kicks. To me, a fleshed out debate about shit nobody should care about is like a round of gold. It's mentally engaging and relaxing to me.

Even if Apple wasn't a rip, I believe they sell shitty Unix boxes, with their iPhones being locked down way past the point I consider reasonable. It's an entire ecosystem of gimmicks and cuckolding that treats me at least like a sheep that could only possibly want the options that Apple gives to me, and little more.

There is an objective and subjective side to Apple. Objectively, they have been known for selling tech at stupidly high markups, like with some of their recent laptops with honestly sub-par performance compared to other options. Subjectively, you can still like them despite that. I can understand the appeal of an incredibly polished machine, and it's likely why MasterTech's mom likes it so much, because for someone who will only ever browse Facebook, a few web pages, and wants to play candy crush, it's a perfect device with honestly impressive optimizations in many places.

I like to be able to have full control of my machines, and while OS/X isn't locked down, I still consider it a less than perfect option compared to free Unix or Unix-like options such as Linux, Free/Open/NetBSD, and Illumos. That's just my opinion as a techie. I feel more at home with those systems, and it just doesn't seem as bloated and weird to me, unlike OS/X.

Don't get me wrong, I own an older Mac, and I do wish to collect them, as I enjoy their place in history, and their technology, but they don't offer me a compelling reason, and they have shown plenty of instances of anti-consumer practices like refusing to repair devices, restricting app support on mobile platforms, and releasing very questionable updates that hinder some devices. So when I engage in a conversation, combined with all these elements, subjective, objective, and personal, I tend to get a bit crusader like.

I do however like a a quote from Benjamin "Yahtzee" Crosshaw. 

"It's worth remembering that all reviews are subjective, personal opinions, and if you've personally enjoyed a game, then they really shouldn't get to you. Unless, of course, there's a despicable, little, niggling doubt in the back of your mind, that maybe you're not having as much fun as you've convinced yourself you're having."

That talks about game reviews, and while this is a pub debate on an EE forum, I believe the same lesson applies. If you're talking about the best device to use, people are only ever going to give you their personal opinions, and Apple has the kind of history that can make people get very strong and unruly personal opinions, however if you're convinced that the device you are using is the best for you, then none of it should matter, and you shouldn't feel attacked. It does go the other way, people crusading over their personal favourites, outside of just pure debate for the fun of it to compare intellectual standpoints, can often get a bit to involved in something that doesn't really matter a whole lot.

[bd139]

I think after watching all the shitposting, a massive problem is that the usual comparisons you see are very childish and have no basis in experience. They seem to be based on seeking confirmation of the opinion which is based on poorly formed data by people seeking confirmation of opinions.

However the figure of merit of any technology is simply the ability to solve a specific class of problem which is relevant to the user. Most of the other concerns are entirely ancillary and irrelevant to that factor, yet those are the facets which are attacked.

Productivity and fungibility is king. I'll run rings around anyone on any platform. But not if I'm sitting here contributing to pointless threads. Bye

[Elasia]

Only thing of apple i really liked was the iphone series pre 8, for corporate phones they worked awesome.  nice walled garden.. very little to worry about malware wise... cisco vpn tech just worked.. although android is well caught up now but still weak to malware

Current phones... not so much now that they brick phones for using knockoff screens, that and their over all circuit board quality is pretty rough across the board.  like anything else, just depends what you do with it and expect from it.  I wouldnt recommend any apple products anymore if you expect them to last.

[GreyWoolfe]

I have an iPhone 7 as a company phone.  As a wireless hotspot for my company laptop when I need it, it performs quite well and is surprisingly fast, even working through VPNs like I have to.  It allows me to do my job, with my other tools, quite efficiently.  That said, I don't think I would own one personally.  I simply prefer Android and have a Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge as my personal phone and I am very happy with it.  I like the feel of it in my hand, the larger screen than the iPhone 7 for my old eyes and I like how easy it is to add my custom ringtones to it.  The iPhone was a challenge.  It might be petty, but I don't want to keep looking at my phone, when someone else nearby has the same ringtone as me.  Happened all the time with the iPhone until I figured out how to do it.  I have also used Samsung phones for way longer than a company iPhone.  I switched to Samsung phones after my last Palm Treo 650

I personally have no dog in the fight as far as Apple and the right to repair issue.  That said, just from the standpoint that I can repair any windows workstation or laptop that I have is much more appealing to me than a laptop that has everything glued down or riveted in place.  I haven't done field service in the private sector for a long time now.  When I was doing Dell/Compaq/Lexmark and 3rd party warranty work, I touched exactly 1 Mac, a PowerMac G4 workstation.  I had to do a processor swap for a gentleman who was a graphic designer.  His confidence was somewhat rattled when I asked him how to open the case.  I was able to figure out the swap from there, the computer worked fine and he was very happy.  If my vague memory serves me correctly, I seem to remember him turning on the monitor and the computer turned on, or maybe it was the other way around.  Either way, I thought that was very cool.

There are always going to be rabid fanboys for or against a product.  It does make it hard to decide what to buy.  Especially when it comes to Apple, the noise floor rises quite a bit.

[Halcyon]

You've probably noticed that I'm not a fan of Apple products. I generally talk about the hardware. When something is poorly designed, it's poorly designed, full stop. Software on the other hand is subjective. While I'm not a fan of OSX, some people love it for their own reasons and that's fine. Saying a particular OS or program is bad is like saying the colour blue is shit. It might be to me, but not to you, so I stay out of the "OS wars".

On to the hardware...

For starters, Apple devices are expensive for what they are. You're essentially paying for the brand and their design.

In my opinion their design isn't all that great either. Forget opening them up to repair or upgrade components yourself. It's been made deliberately difficult. Most of their devices are glued together and/or use Pentalobe security screws. Then, if you do get inside without breaking anything, components such as the RAM and SSD's are soldered to the board.

Also, don't fall into the trap thinking that just because the chassis is made of metal, that it's sturdy and strong, it's not. Some of the older devices were built well, but not all.

One of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen is on the Magic Mouse 2. Some "genius" at Apple decided it would be a great idea to stick the lightning port (used for charging) on the base of the mouse, so if your mouse dies, you simply can't use it while it charges. They also moved the optical sensor from the center of the mouse to the top edge, so if you're using it on a surface like a mouse pad or some other kind of mat, it's very easy to "overrun" the top edge and it stops tracking.

There is a long list of common faults with various Apple devices caused by either poor quality components or incorrect component choice. You only have to watch a few of Louis Rossmann's videos (who repairs Apple products for a living) to see how badly designed some of them really are.

That being said, not all Apple products have these issues. They do make some half-decent products. However if you're happy spending almost AUD$5000 on a Mac Pro which is essentially just a Xeon-based PC that looks like a trash can, then knock yourself out.

I don't like Apple computers mainly because I can build a PC with equal or better specs for less cost, with better build quality, I can upgrade anything I want inside and I'm not locked into Apple's ecosystem and their way of thinking. I don't like their tablets and phones because they are too restrictive both in terms of hardware and operating system.

Sure, I get accused of being an Apple "hater" or of "Apple bashing", but I really don't care. My opinions and experiences are perfectly valid and until Apple pick up their game, they won't change my mind. You'll always get those who are brand loyal, I'm not. I buy whatever product is good at the time and suits my needs. Since at least 2000, Apple hasn't made a product that satisfies my requirements.

[Elasia]

You've probably noticed that I'm not a fan of Apple products. I generally talk about the hardware. When something is poorly designed, it's poorly designed, full stop. Software on the other hand is subjective. While I'm not a fan of OSX, some people love it for their own reasons and that's fine. Saying a particular OS or program is bad is like saying the colour blue is shit. It might be to me, but not to you, so I stay out of the "OS wars".

I grew up on FreeBSD 1.x and still use it to this day... that said i do have a softspot for osx since its a fork..ish and a lot of shared code / utilities

[Ampera]

I grew up on FreeBSD 1.x and still use it to this day... that said i do have a softspot for osx since its a fork..ish and a lot of shared code / utilities

Then, please, for god's sake tell me how the hell you install nVidia's graphics driver. I wasn't for the life of me able to figure it out, and not a single resource worked correctly.

[Elasia]

I grew up on FreeBSD 1.x and still use it to this day... that said i do have a softspot for osx since its a fork..ish and a lot of shared code / utilities

Then, please, for god's sake tell me how the hell you install nVidia's graphics driver. I wasn't for the life of me able to figure it out, and not a single resource worked correctly.

I use it mostly in vms and in a server capacity... its never been the greatest at the latest graphics card support...  my main client is w10 modified to strip all the preloaded malware courtesy of microsoft /puke

[JoeN]

I was an Atari 800 teenager and then went to the PC, with a little bit of playing with Linux, and a professional CS degree using IBM 370 compatibles as our academic architecture.  I always have liked Apple, but perceived them as a ripoff.  The Atari 800 was better at a lot of things (other than no cool expansion bus) compared to the Apple 2, and far cheaper.  The PC was wildly cheaper than the Mac, there was only a short window when Macs had 24 bit color for a couple of years before it was universally adopted on the PC too where I was quite jealous.  Unfortunately, now I perceive Apple as a toy company.  Really cool toys, but not so much that I would rather pay $800 for their phones as opposed to $229 for mine (Moto G5 Plus).  If they want to keep their toy secrets secret, more power to them.

[Electro Detective]

Why is it the more I read the EEVblog forum, my expectations of Apple keeps getting lower and lower.  I know I started off with Amiga in the second half of the 80s all the way until Commodore's demise and was sad that the head execs at Commodore so well screwed up making investing in new gaming systems instead of advancing the hardware and OS properly. 

I then had no choice but to go to MS Windows because of the availability of CAD software and IC compilers, but with Windows lately, I was thinking of taking a serious look into MacOS. 

I always had some admiration for Apple being a quality made product, but, thanks to EEVblog which seems to keep on hitting me with a type of sinking feeling that I would be wasting my time learning a new OS from a company which seems to be lowering their standards, locking in their users to a limited ecosystem, software and hardware, except for the top end iPAD, (which might not stay that way for much longer), hardware which is no longer up to par and can no longer compete with a top end PC.

You've sussed it out as it is mate     

the apologists avoid pointing out that the Apple mountain expeditions and the current Windows 10 OS lockdown aren't going to do you any favors, now or later 

If your apps work fine in the Windows 7, 8, XP/Vista camp, stick to those if you want to get some work done


Linux is nice to have a go at too, if only to get your feet wet

it costs nothing to try, should work with most PCs, less/no hardware upgrade BS to think about,

and lots less spinning beachballs of death to avoid   

[Halcyon]

[andyturk]

However if you're happy spending almost AUD$5000 on a Mac Pro which is essentially just a Xeon-based PC that looks like a trash can, then knock yourself out.

I've got a trash can Pro on my desk now. Had it since they came out (2013) and just recently upgraded it with more RAM and SSD. It's dead quiet, doesn't blink at night, buzz, vibrate, collect dust or get in my way. It's a computing appliance that's worked non-stop for several years now. (I do wish it had more USB ports though).

Why Apple? Well, I like having a Unix under the hood and a UI that's generally professional. I end up spending most of my time in emacs (for development) and Windows (yuck!) via a VM, so the Apple-specific applications don't carry much weight. The only Apple software that's mission critical for me is Time Machine (an automatic backup system) which has saved my bacon on multiple occasions.

Apple costs more, sure, but I really don't care. I spend countless hours in front of the 27" Thunderbolt Display that goes with it (used to be two displays) so I might as well get what I want. If it cost double what I paid, it would still be "worth it" compared to kludgy PC clones.

[Ampera]

I personally run Server 2016, which may be my last version of Windows unless something seriously changes. It's an alright version, but it still doesn't fix NT's numerous downfalls compared to the wonderful world of Unix/Linux.

It seriously makes me wish that Windows would just go away, because Linux on desktop is such a dream experience, but the of course downfall is the software support. There are alternatives for many things, but as a person who enjoys a good video game, I always have to switch into a native Windows environment whenever Wine decides to not work.

It's a case of, do you want software support or do you want a decent operating experience?

[Halcyon]

I'm actually in the market for a new laptop. I just did a quick comparison on Apple vs. Lenovo's offerings (price in Australian Dollars).



The Lenovo, despite being almost the same size as the Macbook, also comes with a full numeric keypad.

I also did a comparison between a fully optioned-up Macbook Pro and what you get in a Lenovo for the same kind of money (the Lenovo also had more options you could choose to increase the specs even further, you could even add a touch screen if you wanted).

[PartialDischarge]

I'm actually in the market for a new laptop. I just did a quick comparison on Apple vs. Lenovo's offerings (price in Australian Dollars).

Sooo quick that it forgets all the stuff included in Macos 
Nevertheless for that comparison to be fair you need to include in the right column the price of a Windows antivirus over all the years of use and the much needed Ctrl-Alt-Del productivity tool:









By the way, that already comes preinstalled with W10 right? 

[glarsson]

I'm actually in the market for a new laptop. I just did a quick comparison on Apple vs. Lenovo's offerings (price in Australian Dollars).

You forgot the most important difference; OS X vs. Windows.

[Halcyon]

I'm actually in the market for a new laptop. I just did a quick comparison on Apple vs. Lenovo's offerings (price in Australian Dollars).

Sooo quick that it forgets all the stuff included in Macos 
Nevertheless for that comparison to be fair you need to include in the right column the price of a Windows antivirus over all the years of use and the much needed Ctrl-Alt-Del productivity tool

If you read my earlier comment, I don't get involve in "OS wars" and which OS is better. You're assuming anyone who buys a PC will actually be running Windows, not so. I actually hate anything newer than Windows 7 and refuse to use it myself.

And yes, this was a quick comparison on the main hardware components, I also left out all the extra bits you can add to some of the Lenovo models such as the ability to add a second hard disk drive, support for a docking station, a touch pad that also has NFC built-in, a smart card reader, backlit keyboard (if that's your thing), an infra-red camera, the ability to add or upgrade RAM by yourself or even that you can hot-swap the external battery if you like.

As for Windows anti virus, it comes free with Windows and actually does a decent job or if you like, you can purchase your favourite package (I prefer ESET personally). I know you Apple guys aren't used to making choices for yourself, you should try it some time.

:-)

[Harb]

I have never worked out why there are so many Haters.......I was once nothing but PC, I then moved onto Mac, with about 30 Machines in the system, and never looked back, never had an issue, not once......to be honest when I have to use a PC because a machine only has PC software I find it ridiculously slow and difficult to deal with.......I definitely don't hate PC, but I need my machines to run without hassle and the Macs do that completely.........I am not a Gamer so cannot comment on that, But All my colleagues in the TV industry are the same.......most are all Mac.
The thing I do notice is that Mac users seem to just use the machine and get the job done, but PC users seem to have a mission to knock Mac's and Mac users.......its really weird and kind of says something in itself. 

[Halcyon]

I have never worked out why there are so many Haters.......I was once nothing but PC, I then moved onto Mac, with about 30 Machines in the system, and never looked back, never had an issue, no once......to be honest when I have to use a PC because a machine only has PC software I find it ridiculously slow and difficult to deal with.......I definitely don't hate PC, but I need my machines to run without hassle and the Macs do that completely.........I am not a Gamer so cannot comment on that, But All my colleagues in the TV industry are the same.......most are all Mac.
The thing I do notice is that Mac users seem to just use the machine and get the job done, but PC users seem to have a mission to knock Mac's and Mac users.......its really weird and kind of says something in itself.

I have to disagree. I don't game either but for the work I do, Apple machines have proven to be unreliable at times. I'm sure some of that comes down to the various bits of software, but the spinning beach ball of death always makes me nervous. In my line of work when Apple is involved, it usually blows the time required to complete the job out by 2 or 3 times.

As for the Television industry, I did some work for Channel Ten in Sydney years ago and their work flow was almost all entirely PC-based. The edit suites were kitted out with HP workstations running Avid software. It seems like most of the big players in the video production game stopped using Apple decades ago. In the audio industry, it seems Apple is still popular (although I had to giggle when I used an Avid mixing desk a few weeks ago and realised it was running Windows).

My bad, I'm sorry, wasn't aware that now Windows includes that feature, haven't used or installed antiviruses in a long time 

Maybe you should. Living in blissful ignorance because "Apple's never get viruses" isn't a good thing.

[GerryBags]

I was an Apple user for graphic design throughout the nineties and early noughties, which is the same period Apple went from being (in my eyes) a great company to a money-grubbing bunch of shitpots. One of the guys who taught me a lot of the technical side of design for litho (as it all was back then) was an Apple Beta tester. He would get sent new OS's, software packages and hardware to test and report back on (occasionally with fixes) a year or two, sometimes longer, before release. By the time the release date came the product was invariably rock-solid.

Then some bright spark must have suggested how much cheaper it would be to copy the MS route to product testing, getting the customers to do it and then release patches to fix.

Then we got the iMac. The worst abuse of all in my experience of those days must be the G4 Cube. The space saving in a small studio with six designers was significant.... and completely outweighed by the two large portable air conditioners that were needed (in the UK!) to stop the stupid cubes from shutting down every five minutes.

I've never owned an iPhone, put it that way.

[wraper]

Sooo quick that it forgets all the stuff included in Macos 

Like this?

[filssavi]

I have never worked out why there are so many Haters.......

Many people hate Apple not because Apple products suck, but because of the creed and greed to money. Not only their hardware are expensive, they also don't allow any third party repairing, and are actively designing in landmines for repairers. Also, their AppStore tips and 3rd party payment policy makes developers very angry.

PCs, on the other hand, due to the lower integration level, has lower technology in them besides just putting the correct things together, hence more players can participate the competition, and hence the very low profit margin.

High profit PCs also F their customers, like MS Surface and Vaio Z series. But most "standard" PCs do not try to stop you from servicing your own computer.

This argument doesn’t make any sense, you don’t like Apple prices or repair policies?
There is a simple solution, don’t buy Apple products full stop

You don’t have to bitch and moan on the internet for that

I don’t like Rolex creed and greed, do I keep shit talking Rolex?

No I just don’t give a s**t.

[Halcyon]

There is a simple solution, don’t buy Apple products full stop

You don’t have to bitch and moan on the internet for that

I've noticed that seems to be a default comment when someone is critical of a particular brand and the counter-arguments have run out, however this thread is specifically about Apple. If you don't give a shit, then don't read it?

For the rest of us who are interested, there is a great deal of experience and expertise here and someone might just learn something.

Even the most inept can figure out that if they don't like something then don't buy it.

[PartialDischarge]

Sooo quick that it forgets all the stuff included in Macos 

Like this?

more like this,
https://support.apple.com/kb/PH25125?locale=en_US

[Halcyon]

Sooo quick that it forgets all the stuff included in Macos 

Like this?

What's the matter? You post screen shots showing Windows in "vulnerable" positions, but when someone does the same with respect to Apple, they get a face palm? Hypocrite much?

[filssavi]

There is a simple solution, don’t buy Apple products full stop

You don’t have to bitch and moan on the internet for that

For the rest of us who are interested, there is a great deal of experience and expertise here and someone might just learn something.

What should I learn?

how crap Apple products are and how great just about anything else is?

How you can’t repair Apple products but everything else is the most repairable thing ever

How Apple products are so expensive and anything else is 800 milion $ cheaper

This is just another Apple Shittalk thread like you can find I just about everywhere on the internet...

There is nothing to learn it’s always the same 10 years old arguments people who would like to buy Apple but don’t want to spend that much make

[Halcyon]

More or less.

[Tac Eht Xilef]

As a person in general, I tend to like to shit on things for the kicks. To me, a fleshed out debate about shit nobody should care about is like a round of gold. It's mentally engaging and relaxing to me.

Thank you for being an arsehole on the Internet. You are a unique and special snowflake who, by making the world a slightly shittier place, has earned the respect and admiration of every other arsehole on the Internet.

[Halcyon]

More or less.

I can understand people paying 2x, 3x or even 5x the price on a premium computer. But $/gflops wise, some Apple computers (custom made i7 12") are 20x more expensive than Taiwanese gaming laptops. That's insanity.

That was the point I was making on the previous page. I was comparing the cost of Apple to Lenovo (because I'm looking at laptops for myself). Not only is the Lenovo cheaper, but in some cases has higher spec'd components and is probably more durable than the Apple. Since then, a few users got all hot and bothered.

Yes, I like Lenovo products, but I have no issues looking at Dell or HP either.

[wraper]

more like this,
https://support.apple.com/kb/PH25125?locale=en_US

There is barely anything that's not included in windows. And itunes is one piece of crapware I won't touch with a ten foot pole. Not that you can't get a few things that's missing by default for completely free, including craptunes.

[Elasia]

More or less.

I can understand people paying 2x, 3x or even 5x the price on a premium computer. But $/gflops wise, some Apple computers (custom made i7 12") are 20x more expensive than Taiwanese gaming laptops. That's insanity.

That was the point I was making on the previous page. I was comparing the cost of Apple to Lenovo (because I'm looking at laptops for myself). Not only is the Lenovo cheaper, but in some cases has higher spec'd components and is probably more durable than the Apple. Since then, a few users got all hot and bothered.

Yes, I like Lenovo products, but I have no issues looking at Dell or HP either.

Loved the closed beach

X1 Carbon... been using them or years, best ultrabook around for pc.  We used to use macbook airs when they came out and put windows on them due to being the first real ultrabook, worked ok.

Cant go wrong business class dell/hp/lenovo.. consumer.. ehh

[Harb]

If the PC platform is so unbeatable why do PC users have to constantly justify why they have one and why they are better than a Mac........
Do as you will, it's your choice, but for me , My downtime and bank balance tell the story for me.......computers are one thing I don't have to worry about anymore......never.....I just want a computer to do what I need to do, and they do that every day every week......I don''t need an IT person on staff......if only every bit of gear I use worked as faultlessly as my computer system does.

[wraper]

Do as you will, it's your choice, but for me , My downtime and bank balance tell the story for me.......computers are one thing I don't have to worry about anymore......never.....I just want a computer to do what I need to do, and they do that every day every week......I don''t need an IT person on staff......if only every bit of gear I use worked as faultlessly as my computer system does.

Until GPU fails due to weak cooling and you cannot recover the data because SSD is soldered onto the motherboard.

[nctnico]

If the PC platform is so unbeatable why do PC users have to constantly justify why they have one and why they are better than a Mac........
if only every bit of gear I use worked as faultlessly as my computer system does.

Now you are more likely comparing the OS and not the hardware. Sure with Apple you also buy the hardware but since that is basically a PC nowadays the only differentiation is the software.

[Harb]

If the PC platform is so unbeatable why do PC users have to constantly justify why they have one and why they are better than a Mac........
if only every bit of gear I use worked as faultlessly as my computer system does.

Now you are more likely comparing the OS and not the hardware. Sure with Apple you also buy the hardware but since that is basically a PC nowadays the only differentiation is the software.

Even there, the hardware is amazing compared to anything else on the market......just a work of art inside one.

[HighVoltage]

A month ago I spent about 6 hours on iTunes with a windows 7 PC and tried to get my data from a iPhone 6 to an iPhone7. After 6 hours I gave up and sold both, the iPhone 6 and the brand new iPhone 7.

I always liked the iPhone for some reasons but when I learned why I could not connect to simple Bluetooth devices from Keysight I started to really dislike apple. Every manufacturer that wants to sell BT devices that connect to apple stuff has to pay for a licensed BT device. How ridicules is that !

A family member just bought a brand new VW Multivan. He spent over 60k Euro on it.
Guess what, in order to connect his iPhone to the car , he needs to spend an extra 500 Euro!!!
Any other adroid phone will connect without any extra pay!

So, we bought a few OnePlus phones, the best move I have ever made in regards to smartphones.
https://www.oneplus.com/de

Never Apple again for me.
 
 

[wraper]

Even there, the hardware is amazing compared to anything else on the market......just a work of art inside one.

Amazing load of garbage when it comes to reliability, especially laptops. And as I said, any motherboard fault that prevents it from booting, forget about your data.

[Harb]

Do as you will, it's your choice, but for me , My downtime and bank balance tell the story for me.......computers are one thing I don't have to worry about anymore......never.....I just want a computer to do what I need to do, and they do that every day every week......I don''t need an IT person on staff......if only every bit of gear I use worked as faultlessly as my computer system does.

Until GPU fails due to weak cooling and you cannot recover the data because SSD is soldered onto the motherboard.

30 machines, 10 years , constantly processing Large Video files, never turned of from the day they get installed....... you might have to let me know when that will happen lol

[nctnico]

If the PC platform is so unbeatable why do PC users have to constantly justify why they have one and why they are better than a Mac........
if only every bit of gear I use worked as faultlessly as my computer system does.

Now you are more likely comparing the OS and not the hardware. Sure with Apple you also buy the hardware but since that is basically a PC nowadays the only differentiation is the software.

Even there, the hardware is amazing compared to anything else on the market......just a work of art inside one.

Appearantly you've never seen a Dell or HP workstation on the inside. They ain't cheap but there is no comparison against a PC in a  standard ATX case where it comes to thermal design.

[wraper]

30 machines, 10 years , constantly processing Large Video files, never turned of from the day they get installed....... you might have to let me know when that will happen lol

Those certainly are not laptops which I was meaning. Video processing on 10y old hardware sound stupid regarding performance.

[olkipukki]

Why is it the more I read the EEVblog forum, my expectations of Apple keeps getting lower and lower. 

IMHO, your expectations in opposite way than Apple.

Why fuss about that?
You nothing invested yet, so nothing to lose (except time you spent while reading about Apple stuff)

I then had no choice but to go to MS Windows because of the availability of CAD software and IC compilers, but with Windows lately, I was thinking of taking a serious look into MacOS.

What benefits did you expect from Mac OS?
Just able to run AutoCAD for Mac natively...  or SolidWorks/Inventor in VM for some reason? 

For example, I bought my Mac mini server (2011) more than 6 years ago as a "light" desktop and this is one of the best purchase (well, I replaced crapy HDDs with SSDs from day one and added extra memory to 16GB in total)
That's still fine and no plans to through sell it on eBay yet.
Would I buy it now?
Absolutely not! I will buy either HP Z2 Mini... or build a custom box using Streacom cases!

Same for notebook, replaced ThinkPad with MacBook Pro 13" (2013) 4+ years ago as a travelling notebook, hopefully will last for another 3-4 years at least.
Would I buy it now?
Absolutely not! I don't need their useless Touch Bar etc.

In fact, for both above, excellent ROI.

[drussell]

FreeBSD

[Harb]

If the PC platform is so unbeatable why do PC users have to constantly justify why they have one and why they are better than a Mac........
if only every bit of gear I use worked as faultlessly as my computer system does.

Now you are more likely comparing the OS and not the hardware. Sure with Apple you also buy the hardware but since that is basically a PC nowadays the only differentiation is the software.

Even there, the hardware is amazing compared to anything else on the market......just a work of art inside one.

Appearantly you've never seen a Dell or HP workstation on the inside. They ain't cheap but there is no comparison against a PC in a  standard ATX case where it comes to thermal design.

I have 2 brand new bells and whistles 1/4 million dollar HP systems that get used twice a week to run a Virtual system for broadcast TV, and they work fine, but even though they have attempted to copy the Mac in construction, they are no where near as well done.

[Ampera]

As a person in general, I tend to like to shit on things for the kicks. To me, a fleshed out debate about shit nobody should care about is like a round of gold. It's mentally engaging and relaxing to me.

Thank you for being an arsehole on the Internet. You are a unique and special snowflake who, by making the world a slightly shittier place, has earned the respect and admiration of every other arsehole on the Internet.

Awww, you're such a dear. Thanks for describing to me the respect and admiration I not only receive, but deserve for engaging in debates on internet forums. You are truly a number one guy. I'd imagine you'd be great fun at a pub or party (or a pub party).

I believe the enjoyment of various operating systems is nearly completely subjective. The only objective point is software support which doesn't matter to all people, and is something WinAPI has been hogging for decades.

If you think that OS/X is worth the massive price chasm, go for it, but don't pin shit that Windows users don't have to deal with, and never have for years upon years on us. most Antivirus is free (Avast being the best free option to mind). Crashes are very rare, at least in my experience on a properly functioning machine. My modern i7 machine running Windows 2016  has not had a major crash for as long as I can remember.

Don't take this as unanimous support for the NT kernel. ACTUAL issues include an absolutely bloated kernel and operating system, terrible spying and bloatware practices (Apple isn't innocent of this either, nor is pretty much anybody these days, but Microsoft is being pretty bad), the broken abortion that was UWP, Updates that have been less than amazing (Apple is also guilty here), and as a purely subjective note, I think a terrible design in general. As a former competitor nearly directly to Unix workstations, I'm honestly surprised NT ended up the way it did.

Also don't forget you still have your competition in the Unix/Linux world that are as stable, if not more so, with options like OpenBSD being a respected veteran in being tough and secure as balls.

[rsjsouza]

My US$0.02... As others have also pointed out, there's criticism to Apple's Hardware, SW and business practices. Take any criticism and praise with a pound of salt, as these fields are quite entrenched and will always be based on personal experience - AFAIK there is no Pew Research whitepaper that reflects likes and dislikes with a specific brand.

My criticism falls mostly into their business practices, especially the later battery obsolescence and screen BS as well as their trend to kill accessible and ubiquitous standard ports to lock in to their accessory ecosystem. I also have a somewhat bad experience of their SW and a peeve with their recurring attempts to rewrite computing history, but that is minor.

All in all, Windows and Linux also have their flaws (especially after release 10 of Windows and release 12 of Ubuntu), but the PC market gives you a healthy diversity of suppliers of Hardware, SW and features that Apple can only dream of.

The TL;DR version:
Their products were good for my wife in the days that iPods were the thing - my wife went through two generations but got sick of their complete disregard for compatibility and third party enablement when they switched connectors - at the early days of their smaller connector, nothing other than Apple accessories worked well. At the same time I had the iPod touch 8GB and used it as my "PDA", as it was an interesting replacement for my aging Lifedrive. However, its stability (after an OS update that I couldn't revert) and barebone calendar and contacts applications (without a suitable repalcement in their store) drove me away from them when I decided to move to a full featured smartphone (their iPhone at the time had the same bare applications).
Fast forward a few years (2014) and at work I got a brand spanking new to MacbookPro notebook for our SW testing at work. At the same time I got for free a macmini at home from a few years earlier (2008). The contrast between the macmini and similar PCs of its time is absolutely astonishing: the seamless integration of Bluetooth, WiFi and its smoothness of operation are absolutely astonishing.

The MacbookPro is also a very nice machine, although the contrast with a 2014 PC of the same class is almost non-existing: the Retina screen is certainly much nicer than a comparable screen of a PC (mostly at full HD unless paying a tremendous markup) but most everything else were variations of the same theme that even my wife's Toshiba ultranotebook of 2012 already had at a much lower price.
After that, Apple's business luminaries  decided to go through a "port killing spree" which greatly reduced their value for us: we can't afford the impracticality of a computer that needed to be plugged to USB ports and business projectors via a plethora of adapters that can be easily forgotten or lost during business trips.

[GreyWoolfe]

A month ago I spent about 6 hours on iTunes with a windows 7 PC and tried to get my data from a iPhone 6 to an iPhone7. After 6 hours I gave up and sold both, the iPhone 6 and the brand new iPhone 7.

Funny you mention that.  I just went through the very same thing.  I only spent a couple of hours on it as I had to update the 2 phones to the latest iOS and iTunes to the latest build.  After I got that all figured out, it went very smooth and everything copied but the Exchange email but we had a procedure for that.

Apparantly you've never seen a Dell or HP workstation on the inside. They ain't cheap but there is no comparison against a PC in a  standard ATX case where it comes to thermal design.

When I bought my DELL Precision T5500 from the local surplus store, I opened it up first.  Even though it is a workstation, it reminded me of the inside of a full size server.  Damn thing weighs about the same also.  This was a Vista Business era computer.  I loaded Win10 Pro 64 bit and all drivers loaded on install except the NVidia FX-3800, that updated on first reboot.  This is now my primary computer and is the fastest computer I have, including my Lenovo T460 Core i7 company laptop.

 Business class computers will always be better than consumer PCs.  Most people just don't want to spend that kind of money.  When I was doing Dell warranty work, the Lattitude business class laptops took far more abuse than the Inspiron laptops ever could.  Even better, the Lattitudes were far easier to take apart and repair than the Inspiron 7000 and 7500 desktop replacement series ever were.  I remember another tech I worked with had to go on a call for an Inspiron 7500 not long after they were released, it needed a new motherboard.  He got it apart and couldn't figure out how to put it back together.  He brought it into the office in a box, completely in pieces, much to the chagrin of all, including one very pissed off customer.  My boss handed it to me, took 2 hours to get it back together/working with no screws left over and I had to deliver it to the customer.  That tech was no longer allowed to touch that particular laptop ever again. 

Having never owned anything Apple, I can't weigh in at all on the quality of the hardware/software.  As someone who serviced probably in excess of a 1000 Dell laptops while I had that job,  I truly cringe at seeing batteries glued in and having to take the laptop apart to get to it, SSDs soldered to mainboards, and keyboards that are riveted in. Why?  Is is truly because Apple doesn't care and just wants you to spend even more and more money with them on new upgrades instead of repair?  I don't know but in my squirrelly little brain, it does seem so.  Since that job, I still get to work on the occasional Dell, HP, Acer and Sony laptops, didn't take much to figure out how to peel them open and fix them.  Plenty parts available.  I would never try an Apple laptop.

[BrianHG]

Why is it the more I read the EEVblog forum, my expectations of Apple keeps getting lower and lower. 

IMHO, your expectations in opposite way than Apple.

Why fuss about that?
You nothing invested yet, so nothing to lose (except time you spent while reading about Apple stuff)

I then had no choice but to go to MS Windows because of the availability of CAD software and IC compilers, but with Windows lately, I was thinking of taking a serious look into MacOS.

What benefits did you expect from Mac OS?
Just able to run AutoCAD for Mac natively...  or SolidWorks/Inventor in VM for some reason? 

For example, I bought my Mac mini server (2011) more than 6 years ago as a "light" desktop and this is one of the best purchase (well, I replaced crapy HDDs with SSDs from day one and added extra memory to 16GB in total)
That's still fine and no plans to through sell it on eBay yet.
Would I buy it now?
Absolutely not! I will buy either HP Z2 Mini... or build a custom box using Streacom cases!

Same for notebook, replaced ThinkPad with MacBook Pro 13" (2013) 4+ years ago as a travelling notebook, hopefully will last for another 3-4 years at least.
Would I buy it now?
Absolutely not! I don't need their useless Touch Bar etc.

In fact, for both above, excellent ROI.

     Well, I'm thinking of beginning a new company which will have over 40 employees.  We will be creating a Cell Phone/tablet PC app which will need to run on Android, IOs, Windows, plus a piece of hardware to be designed in house which we are already married to Altium.  Now, I know we need at least 1 Mac to compile the IOs project.  In house, we will be creating a 100% specialized audio music editor which my software developer has given me the choice of making Win, or MacOS, or, even Linux based.  At least 30 of the employees will be the editors running this software and they will need matched headphone audio setups which cannot change, and will need replacing as failures are expected over at least 10 year life of the company.  Now, do I trust I can go with Mac PC and for the next 10 years, always get the same replacement MACs with identical audio outputs, or, do I stick with generic PCs.

     So far, I'm getting the feeling that serious computing MacOS may not be the way to go.  I feel as time goes on over the 10 years, to keep my in house 'reference' audio lab functioning as hardware bits will need replacing, placing my business in the hands of Apple would be a move like a gamble.

[Halcyon]

So far, I'm getting the feeling that serious computing MacOS may not be the way to go.  I feel as time goes on over the 10 years, to keep my in house 'reference' audio lab functioning as hardware bits will need replacing, placing my business in the hands of Apple would be a move like a gamble.

From what you describe, it isn't. You don't have that granular control of Apple hardware as you do with a PC. At least if you build your own machine (and know what you're doing), you can build it exactly to your specifications and it will probably be of better quality and reliability than what you'll get out of an Apple box.

Yes it means a little more extra work, planning and doing your homework, but at the end of the day, you'll end up with a workhorse which will probably last 10 years or more if you wanted it to.

This is exactly what I did when I was doing video editing. I built myself (at the time) a high-spec Xeon machine based on a Supermicro motherboard. The only thing I've done since is increase the RAM and upgrade the SSD. That's it. It still works like a charm.

[olkipukki]

    Well, I'm thinking of beginning a new company which will have over 40 employees.  We will be creating a Cell Phone/tablet PC app which will need to run on Android, IOs, Windows, plus a piece of hardware to be designed in house which we are already married to Altium.  Now, I know we need at least 1 Mac to compile the IOs project.

You want more than one Mac not only for compilation, but management submissions to App store and support as well.
What would happen if next macOS / XCode update wipe something from your single-only Mac?  In general, enough power to run a few macOS VMs on Mac to cover some worst-case scenarios.

I run Altium on my Macbook in VMWare Fusion under Win10,
that's okay for occasional stuff (such a new footprint creating, quick project review etc.) while traveling, but this is not my workhorse.

I considered to buy Mac Pro "trash can" then first time saw it at WWDC'13. I thought: "This is going to be my next workstation and I finally stop assemble custom builds, but not now, let’s wait a version 2". After chatting with a few Apple's representatives and trying to find out how they managed to cool this machine down on heavy loads, got overall answer: "We have a fan there!"  , not convinced, I don't need a heat blower on my desk. Since then, no version 2 and Apple still planning to release a next build in 2019! 

We all know, Apple threw away server products long time ago without alternatives and do not provide any roadmaps (well, they admitted MacPro mess  and what - does it help?)

  In house, we will be creating a 100% specialized audio music editor which my software developer has given me the choice of making Win, or MacOS, or, even Linux based.

You have a genius developer! I would assume we are talking about some kind of cross-platform framework (aka Qt etc), right?
Can your dev complete work 25% faster on macOS rather than Win/Linux? Very unlikely...

At least 30 of the employees will be the editors running this software and they will need matched headphone audio setups which cannot change, and will need replacing as failures are expected over at least 10 year life of the company.
 

Would your 30+ employees work more efficient on macOS compare to Win/Linux? Doubted...


 

   Now, do I trust I can go with Mac PC and for the next 10 years, always get the same replacement MACs with identical audio outputs, or, do I stick with generic PCs.

     So far, I'm getting the feeling that serious computing MacOS may not be the way to go.  I feel as time goes on over the 10 years, to keep my in house 'reference' audio lab functioning as hardware bits will need replacing, placing my business in the hands of Apple would be a move like a gamble.

Sorry, but still unclear why macOS? 
You probably not for a 'cool' factor too, otherwise bought all 40+ iMac Pro's by now 

The true gambler is playing against odds for some benefits. In case of Apple, looks like "kamikaze" mode.

[Harb]

30 machines, 10 years , constantly processing Large Video files, never turned of from the day they get installed....... you might have to let me know when that will happen lol

Those certainly are not laptops which I was meaning. Video processing on 10y old hardware sound stupid regarding performance.

10 Years of using Mac as high end editors has never let us down.....ever......The oldest machine in use is probably 6 years old and still does its job faultlessly........I know PC users hate to hear it, but I have no brand or OS preference, and Mac just leads the way for us, and until it doesn't, I will continue to use them......The only people I know that have multiple edit facilities and use PC have either entered into a supply and service contract or are using software that requires it.

[Mr. Scram]

Another one of these threads?

[nctnico]

In house, we will be creating a 100% specialized audio music editor which my software developer has given me the choice of making Win, or MacOS, or, even Linux based.  At least 30 of the employees will be the editors running this software and they will need matched headphone audio setups which cannot change, and will need replacing as failures are expected over at least 10 year life of the company.  Now, do I trust I can go with Mac PC and for the next 10 years, always get the same replacement MACs with identical audio outputs, or, do I stick with generic PCs.

Expecting 10 years is way too optimistic. Besides that I'd have the software written cross platform so you can always change to a different platform later on. In a professional setup you'll also want headphone connectors which are able to deal with people forgetting to unplug them so any consumer hardware is out already.

[wn1fju]

Here's a completely non-technical opinion of Apple.  I've never owned an Apple product until about 6 months ago when I got the itch to buy
an iPad.  At $329 (US), it seemed reasonably priced, so I drifted over to my local Apple store at lunch-time. 

Being that it was my first ever visit to an Apple store, I was somewhat puzzled at the nine large tables with all of the Apple products - NONE
had a label next to them saying what it was and what the price was.  I've never been in a "retail" store where the descriptions and/or prices
were not prominently displayed.

I managed to identify the iPad I wanted.  It then took over 30 minutes before a "representative" would talk to me.  I kept asking and
they kept saying that I was third on the list.  And this includes the woman who was standing around doing nothing.  When I approached her,
she said "I'm a manager - all I do is make sure things are going smoothly."  Well, how about selling me one to make things "go smoothly."
Not a chance.

Bottom line:  I had to threaten in a very loud voice that I was about to walk out before someone reluctantly came over and took my money.

It was the worst retail experience I've ever had, and I will never go to an Apple store again. 

[BrianHG]

  In house, we will be creating a 100% specialized audio music editor which my software developer has given me the choice of making Win, or MacOS, or, even Linux based.

You have a genius developer! I would assume we are talking about some kind of cross-platform framework (aka Qt etc), right?
Can your dev complete work 25% faster on macOS rather than Win/Linux? Very unlikely...

Yes, I have a developer who trained on all desktop PC OS, specializes in Delphi, and also programs in Xamarin for the portable OSs, as well as SOC embedded systems programmer.  Anyways, I've decided to have the editor developed in Win and I'll equip my editing PC with Server 2016.  It wont make a difference to the editors, but, if I ever loose my programmer, and further development or additions are needed to the editor, I'll have less hassle finding a coder who can work in Windows.
As for deployment on iPhone and handling iTunes, this is one area which Apple will have to keep supporting in some fashion, unless they want to close down their app store.  So, I know I will still need to buy a few Macs, but I don't think I make them my companies backbone for everything else.

[BrianHG]

In house, we will be creating a 100% specialized audio music editor which my software developer has given me the choice of making Win, or MacOS, or, even Linux based.  At least 30 of the employees will be the editors running this software and they will need matched headphone audio setups which cannot change, and will need replacing as failures are expected over at least 10 year life of the company.  Now, do I trust I can go with Mac PC and for the next 10 years, always get the same replacement MACs with identical audio outputs, or, do I stick with generic PCs.

Expecting 10 years is way too optimistic. Besides that I'd have the software written cross platform so you can always change to a different platform later on. In a professional setup you'll also want headphone connectors which are able to deal with people forgetting to unplug them so any consumer hardware is out already.

Yes, I still have to look into this, though since tuning bass, mid range and treble across multiple tracks need to be matched to the human ear, my editing departments manager will be choosing the headphones & a properly rated quality USB dac for the job.  Luckily, the 30 editors wont be doing any recording, for that, I only need 1 small studio.

I expect the headphones and DAC units will need replacement over the decade.

[BrianHG]

  Speak of the DEVIL, this bothers me...

[bd139]

That’s pretty shit!

Similar story with one of our surfaces though, a throw away job also. The thing delaminated and the audio stopped working and MSFT wouldn’t do a warranty swap out or repair. User got a Yoga instead and we cancelled the PO for more surface machines. Fuck em.

Our office machines are all HP Z series workstations. Those are rock solid but same problem. Can’t get parts even from HPE. Whole industry is a nightmare.

At this point I’m almost certain your best bet is buy a clone/DIY PC and take on the integration risk if you want a higher performance machine.

Tempted to get my old desktop PC out and chuck Debian on it now.

[wraper]

Similar story with one of our surfaces though, a throw away job also. The thing delaminated and the audio stopped working and MSFT wouldn’t do a warranty swap out or repair.

It's not similar in any way. That was some sort of warranty reject, probably because of mechanical damage. Linus case has nothing to do with warranty. Break the screen on $ 5k DESKTOP computer, no repair for you, no matter how much you want to pay.

[bd139]

Fair point, I concede.

Incidentally I decided to dig my old desktop out and use it with Debian instead of the mac. Typing on it now. See how long I last on the platform. All good so far.

This is a sub $100 machine i.e. entirely disposable (core 2 E7500, 4Gb RAM, cheap samsung SSD, 17" 1280x1024 TFT)

[CNe7532294]

That’s pretty shit!

Similar story with one of our surfaces though, a throw away job also. The thing delaminated and the audio stopped working and MSFT wouldn’t do a warranty swap out or repair. User got a Yoga instead and we cancelled the PO for more surface machines. Fuck em.

Our office machines are all HP Z series workstations. Those are rock solid but same problem. Can’t get parts even from HPE. Whole industry is a nightmare.

At this point I’m almost certain your best bet is buy a clone/DIY PC and take on the integration risk if you want a higher performance machine.

Tempted to get my old desktop PC out and chuck Debian on it now.

I've literally been doing DIY PC building for decades. I highly encourage it. I made a compaq computer last for 11 years (2002 - 2013). The one before that was from '97. This one I'm typing on is 5 years now. Oh how time has flown. Its actually not that hard to assemble your own computer then update it as time goes on. Just get a good motherboard, and PSU (600 - 800W should suffice as a gamer). Everything else is just an accessory or something you can use temporarily to upgrade later. Heck you can even make your own case if you have access to equipment from a friend or yourself. You can even save previous parts. This current one still uses the IDE/PATA HDDs for storage via a SATA to PATA converter. Also, I see no reason to change for another decade. CPU manufacturing is slowing down despite Moore's law and bitcoin/crypto is making video cards a literal sh*t show with cards that used to be $400 max going for $1000+USD.

What got me into dumpster diving/repair/restoration was partly due to my digust with throw away mentality and the impact on the environment. Its funny how tech companies tend to put on a nice face about being clean and all (apple and microsoft stores sure look futuristically clean don't they?) when nothing else can be further away from the truth. Out of sight out of mind I suppose.  I fear nothing is going to change at all unless we all truly stand up to all the BS all these companies, CEOs specifically, have been doing for a long while. They just keep on pushing the envelope to see how far they can go. Unfortunately mainstream buyers loves taking it up..... well you know. Plus we're already screwed with our 401Ks on the line. 

[bd139]

This one I'm using now isn't a home built one but it's an old HP enterprise desktop. I just did a dmesg. Here's the last BIOS date:

[    0.000000] DMI: Hewlett-Packard HP Compaq 8000 Elite SFF PC/3646h, BIOS 786G7 v01.13 07/20/2011

The thing goes like fucking lightning with xubuntu on it. Going to use it exclusively for a couple of weeks and see how it goes.

I built my own PCs from about 1995 to 2008. After that there were so many quality enterprise workstations and laptops on the market it wasn't worth it. But those are drying up now.

[borjam]

Don't take this as unanimous support for the NT kernel. ACTUAL issues include an absolutely bloated kernel and operating system, terrible spying and bloatware practices (Apple isn't innocent of this either, nor is pretty much anybody these days,

This is interesting. Can you mention sources or observed facts? If you have any kind of proof you can get them indicted even with securities fraud, because they seem to be hiding the amount of money being made with that "spying". Go for it!

Also don't forget you still have your competition in the Unix/Linux world that are as stable, if not more so, with options like OpenBSD being a respected veteran in being tough and secure as balls.

I have been using FreeBSD since 1995 or so, even tinkered with driver code. It's great but, sadly, some of the stuff available for Mac OS X is not available for FreeBSD.

And for some of us who work on Unix systems, Windows annoyances can get really offensive.

[bd139]

And for some of us who work on Unix systems, Windows annoyances can get really offensive.

This is actually the thing that kills me. There's never a wall in front of a task.

[Mr. Scram]

This is actually the thing that kills me. There's never a wall in front of a task.

What do you mean exactly?

[Ampera]

Bloatware I consider to be the entire phone, but I do not suppose that's what you were getting at.

Apple is a modern company, and they keep and likely sell analytical data they gather from you using their services.

While current versions of public BSD don't have everything OS/X has, as a personal opinion, OS/X doesn't have anything that I would want. I am aware this is my personal opinion, and places like publishing houses have loved and still love their overpriced slabs, but most of what you can do on a Macintosh, you can do on a PC with NT and Linux (and by superset, BSD)

I work both with Linux and NT on the regular, with Linux being by far my favourite. (I've dabbled with BSD and even Illumos, and while the latter I can understand not having what I was looking for, with it being an entirely different beast, I could never even get nVidia drivers to work on BSD despite closely following multiple guides that all seemed to conflict with each other.)

Apple is a company that is only here to make money, and when you keep that in mind, their practices make sense. They have an army of very very loyal followers that will buy almost whatever they throw out regardless of what crap it has in there. Apple doesn't need good PR, because they sell so many heavily marked up devices to so many people while treating their customers like shit. They have successfully proven that if you can make someone think they are getting a slick and powerful device, you can sell pretty much whatever you want.

I have a very different perspective of mobile devices as a person, considering I am one of the very rare people who does not regularly use a smartphone. I use tablets, sure, and for that I of course need Android, but as for phones, I own a 70 dollar BLU R1 HD that is connected up to my network almost never. I rarely use it, and I can have it be flat for days on end and I don't even notice or care.  I see these devices as mini computers, a way to do some of what I can do on the desktop in a very portable, very enjoyable form factor, and when I start to get limited with what applications I can even run on a device, I get annoyed greatly.

This is actually the thing that kills me. There's never a wall in front of a task.

What do you mean exactly?

What Mr. Scram said.

[bd139]

This is actually the thing that kills me. There's never a wall in front of a task.

What do you mean exactly?

With a Unix machine I sit at the machine, do the job and go home.

With a Windows machine I sit at the machine, fix it, do the job, fix it again and go home.

[bd139]

Apple is a modern company, and they keep and likely sell analytical data they gather from you using their services.

https://www.apple.com/uk/privacy/

They are the only vendor which explicitly says it doesn't. This is also incidentally why they are the only mobile devices allowed in some parts of the financial sector here in the UK at this point.

[Mr. Scram]

https://www.apple.com/uk/privacy/

They are the only vendor which explicitly says it doesn't. This is also incidentally why they are the only mobile devices allowed in some parts of the financial sector here in the UK at this point.

Like how Zuckerberg says it's your data and Facebook won't ever sell it?

[Distelzombie]

I'd trust a rooted android everything. An iPhone? Drop it once and you basically have to throw it away. Nope. My HTC 10 survived many cruel falls until the screen gave up because something had fallen onto it. Try that with a generc iPhone.

[bd139]

https://www.apple.com/uk/privacy/

They are the only vendor which explicitly says it doesn't. This is also incidentally why they are the only mobile devices allowed in some parts of the financial sector here in the UK at this point.

Like how Zuckerberg says it's your data and Facebook won't ever sell it?

Actually if you read the terms it doesn't say that at all.

I'd trust a rooted android everything. An iPhone? Drop it once and you basically have to throw it away. Nope. My HTC 10 survived many cruel falls until the screen gave up because something had fallen onto it. Try that with a generc iPhone.

A rooted android is an easy attack vector. Once SELinux is fucked up on Android the whole game is over. Also most of the attack vectors for Android phones are via the front door i.e. drive by and app store based infections.

I wouldn't trust ANY android phone regardless of status. Spot the number of penetration testers who own android phones as an example...

As for durability of iPhones my 6s takes a hell of a beating. I've dropped it onto concrete a few times. Has a cheap TPU case on it (cloned apple one). Plus it has been in a sink of water.

[Ampera]

If I truly gave a shit about security, I wouldn't own a phone. Or a laptop. Or anything that could be easily picked up and nicked.

Apple can say what they want, I call bullshit. If Apple is an asshole enough to completely deny to even offer paid parts to repair a 5,000 dollar computer they sold very recently, I don't underestimate them whatsoever. This, however, is a level of pedantry that is an educated shitpost doesn't deserve.

Anyways, I find security to be an interesting concept. Give the wrong person the right motivation, and most security doesn't matter. There are few ways to be a completely secure person, so I believe the best a technology minded person can do is not be stupid. I like to think I'm not, but I have proven to myself before how little of a shit I can give sometimes. The general idea I take is be responsible with passwords, keep anything that doesn't need to be on the internet off the internet, and partake in at least halfway responsible information acquisition techniques. That I believe is a way to avoid 80% of the traps out there.

To secant, the conversation at hand is one of trying to justify your purchase, and it always has been. If you like Apple devices, and you have reason for owning one, go right ahead. The immature part of me may make fun of you, but the serious part of me doesn't really care. If someone asks me what to do, I would never suggest Apple (unless they are asking what the best method to burn their money was). There are still reasons to use Apple if you're a specific kind of person, but I believe in a world where Apple is solely not needed.

The funny thing about Apple, is that everybody loves to hate them. They are the short guy in your group that eats crow 24/7, but you still like each other regardless. I like to hate Apple, and I believe they do help to make the world more fun. Microsoft, on the other hand, I hate that I have to hate them because I am in a way forced to give them a prominent role in my life. I can type this forum post on Linux, but the moment I wish to boot up Fusion 360, it's back to my copy of Windows. There are alternatives, but it's still annoying to have to use them, and as a gamer, there are just some games that don't run on Linux regardless of what you do.

Microsoft has me by the balls, and like to piss me off however they can. While Apple is fun to pick on, Microsoft is just absolutely annoying. He's not a good friend you mess with, he's the guy that keeps barging in on your conversations trying to join your group of friends, while spewing all his fandom crap that nobody cares about, but you can't kick him out because he works a few cubicles over from you, and you might have to ask him for his bit of a project.

 

[bd139]

I'll quote a colleague of mine. Microsoft is like owning a pet rabbit; most of the time it's cute and fluffy, but the rest of the time it's biting you and fucking your leg and leaving shit everywhere.

[Ampera]

I'll quote a colleague of mine. Microsoft is like owning a pet rabbit; most of the time it's cute and fluffy, but the rest of the time it's biting you and fucking your leg and leaving shit everywhere.

I own a pet rabbit, and I would rather have her than Microsoft. It's never really bitten me, it's never tried to fuck my leg (it is a female rabbit, so that's probably why) and it shits in a tray. I'll throw pictures here if anybody wants.

Honestly, most of the time, I don't notice Windows' bullshit, but it bites me in the ass on occasion. Whenever I use Windows, I just start to miss the elegance of a properly tuned Arch Linux install. It's almost orchestral the way it all works together, and MATE with Docky makes the best operating environment I have ever used.

[Distelzombie]

bd139

Spot the number of penetration testers who own android phones as an example...

As for durability of iPhones my 6s takes a hell of a beating. I've dropped it onto concrete a few times. Has a cheap TPU case on it (cloned apple one). Plus it has been in a sink of water.

What? You know any who doesn't?

My HTC never had a case, because, if the phone is well constructed it doesn't need one. It just get's bulkier and looks stupid.

[Richard Crowley]

Why is it the more I read the EEVblog forum, my expectations of Apple keeps getting lower and lower. 

If you had watched any of Louis Rossman's repair videos, there wouldn't be a shred of doubt in your mind.
Apple blatantly and chronically treats their customers like fecal matter.  They don't even apologize anymore.

And if you don't believe Rossman, take a look at Linus' recent video:

https://youtu.be/9-NU7yOSElE

[Halcyon]

I wouldn't trust ANY android phone regardless of status. Spot the number of penetration testers who own android phones as an example...

To be fair, I know penetration and security experts across Australia (actual experts, not just someone who can load up Kali Linux and call themselves one) and the vast majority of them use non-Apple phones, mostly selected Android handsets. I say selected because not all Androids are built equal, some require little more than a PC and a few clicks to recover data, others are not possible (yet). If you think Apple keeps you any more secure, you're mistaken.

But you're right, I wouldn't trust any phone either to harbour secrets. What might be secure today, might not be tomorrow.

[bd139]

You're missing the point entirely.

The highest risk vector is the users. We’re defending from the users of the device. Loss, infection, drive by attacks, misuse etc. If we go against state level actors there is no chance and not our problem really as it’s either something we’d report to NCSC/GCHQ or have a warrant for.

Handing an android handset to an inexperienced user is like giving a monkey a gun.

Was it 2017 that there were 500-odd CVEs against android?

[Halcyon]

You're missing the point entirely.

The highest risk vector is the users. We’re defending from the users of the device. Loss, infection, drive by attacks, misuse etc. If we go against state level actors there is no chance and not our problem really as it’s either something we’d report to NCSC/GCHQ or have a warrant for.

Handing an android handset to an inexperienced user is like giving a monkey a gun.

Was it 2017 that there were 500-odd CVEs against android?

I don't think I have missed the point at all, but completely agree with your comments. For the most part, the user is the weakest point in the system. I was simply responding to your comment where you said:

Spot the number of penetration testers who own android phones as an example...

You were implying that experts in the cyber security and INFOSEC disciplines avoid Android handsets, when that is simply not true. Just like a Windows machine, if it's properly configured, certain Android handsets can be very secure.

[tooki]

Here's a completely non-technical opinion of Apple.  I've never owned an Apple product until about 6 months ago when I got the itch to buy
an iPad.  At $329 (US), it seemed reasonably priced, so I drifted over to my local Apple store at lunch-time. 

Being that it was my first ever visit to an Apple store, I was somewhat puzzled at the nine large tables with all of the Apple products - NONE
had a label next to them saying what it was and what the price was.  I've never been in a "retail" store where the descriptions and/or prices
were not prominently displayed.

I managed to identify the iPad I wanted.  It then took over 30 minutes before a "representative" would talk to me.  I kept asking and
they kept saying that I was third on the list.  And this includes the woman who was standing around doing nothing.  When I approached her,
she said "I'm a manager - all I do is make sure things are going smoothly."  Well, how about selling me one to make things "go smoothly."
Not a chance.

Bottom line:  I had to threaten in a very loud voice that I was about to walk out before someone reluctantly came over and took my money.

It was the worst retail experience I've ever had, and I will never go to an Apple store again.

Make sure to reach out to the store manager and let them know how your experience was. That's certainly not the way things are supposed to run!

[bd139]

You're missing the point entirely.

The highest risk vector is the users. We’re defending from the users of the device. Loss, infection, drive by attacks, misuse etc. If we go against state level actors there is no chance and not our problem really as it’s either something we’d report to NCSC/GCHQ or have a warrant for.

Handing an android handset to an inexperienced user is like giving a monkey a gun.

Was it 2017 that there were 500-odd CVEs against android?

I don't think I have missed the point at all, but completely agree with your comments. For the most part, the user is the weakest point in the system. I was simply responding to your comment where you said:

Spot the number of penetration testers who own android phones as an example...

You were implying that experts in the cyber security and INFOSEC disciplines avoid Android handsets, when that is simply not true. Just like a Windows machine, if it's properly configured, certain Android handsets can be very secure.

Yes they do avoid android. And advised us to get rid of it. Multiple companies. It’s almost universally the first thing people tell everyone.

Also compare NCSC EUD documentation on both platforms...

[Halcyon]

Yes they do avoid android. And advised us to get rid of it. Multiple companies. It’s almost universally the first thing people tell everyone.

Can you provide reasons why and perhaps source some references? Because my experience differs and as I said, these are industry and government experts. A generic throw-away comment might be fine for the ordinary user, but doesn't explain anything to those with advanced knowledge and so far, my knowledge and experience seems to conflict with your statement.

It's like asking a user to restart their machine to "fix" a problem, yet I want to know WHY a problem occurs and how to fix/avoid it.

Also, now that news has been made public, this is just one product capable of defeating IOS security (there are several others): https://blog.malwarebytes.com/security-world/2018/03/graykey-iphone-unlocker-poses-serious-security-concerns/

[helius]

The existence of Graykey and other PIN bypass tools isn't really related to malware. These are completely different subjects.

[Distelzombie]

You're missing the point entirely.

...

Was it 2017 that there were 500-odd CVEs against android?

I'm with Halcyon here. All the guys I know use android. (Some ppl from the CCC.)

And that down there is a red-herring argument. Just because they found 500 CVEs doesn't mean it is not safer than Apple. It could be extremely safe after that, at the same level or less. It says nothing. Unless you really go ask deeper questions.
Apple is safe for ppl with knowledge and commitment to lose convenience up to a certain point and then Android start to win it all. Pixel phones, mostly. The ones that have non-altered Android OSs.

[bd139]

Yes they do avoid android. And advised us to get rid of it. Multiple companies. It’s almost universally the first thing people tell everyone.

Can you provide reasons why and perhaps source some references? Because my experience differs and as I said, these are industry and government experts. A generic throw-away comment might be fine for the ordinary user, but doesn't explain anything to those with advanced knowledge and so far, my knowledge and experience seems to conflict with your statement.

It's like asking a user to restart their machine to "fix" a problem, yet I want to know WHY a problem occurs and how to fix/avoid it.

Also, now that news has been made public, this is just one product capable of defeating IOS security (there are several others): https://blog.malwarebytes.com/security-world/2018/03/graykey-iphone-unlocker-poses-serious-security-concerns/

Gray key is state level attack. Meh game over there.

This is one of the reports we were cited which was hilariously self damning https://onestore.nokia.com/asset/201621/Nokia_2017_Threat_Intelligence_Report_EN.pdf

The penetration testers we used, from four companies all universally suggested dumping android because of the malware infection risk and short cycle abandonment of android by the vendors. iOS was noted as preferred as there is one single control point and the MDM solution allows for sufficient hardening, a defined support lifecycle and a good history of response by vendor for new attacks.

The pen testers all explained that they use iOS for their handsets. The rationale behind this was they applied MDM policies on their own devices and had better control of data sharing. The phones were universally not used for any document handling of any sort. They left that to their MacBooks which were running Linux...

Honestly the answer we had was: if you use have mobile devices, make them iOS as you can cover the loss and infection vectors due to the Secure Enclave.

The pen testers we hire are well known and publish many CVEs themselves. We’re in the middle of London in the financial sector. We only hire the best guys on the market, some of whom we know from our not strictly white hat background.

[Halcyon]

I can certain understand that kind of advice from a pentest company providing feedback to another organisation.

But the point I made is, pentesters, DF experts and INFOSEC personnel themselves don't simply avoid Android for those same reasons.

[Ampera]

I can agree that iOS devices are more secure, but they are also more limited.

Apple keeps a tight, and in my opinion too tight for my taste control on their devices. You're not allowed to install your own applications, and up until recently, you didn't even have a visible file system. (For all I know that could still be the case). In order to get what I consider base functionality onto a device I would actually use, I would have to jailbreak it, and make it more insecure than regular Android, just to install something as radical as an emulator.

You can bury a 2-inch thick AR-550 safe in 10 meters of concrete, under a mile of sand in the Nevada desert, and have it be the most secure safe in the world, but it doesn't mean anything if you can't get back to your files.

For me, as a general, average Joe who does not have a single shred of important information on my portable devices that can't be immediately eradicated from a potential thief (all banking is NEVER on portable devices), Android provides a level of functionality that I need from my devices. iOS is too locked down, and too deeply embedded into Apple's bullshit to make it worthwhile to me. This is keeping in mind I would only really ever use this all as a tablet that will rarely leave my home.

Now if we want to talk about security, then your mates who bash Android should be wholeheartedly against the concept of laptops. Even OS/X doesn't have the level of sandboxed security as iOS, nevermind Windows. Even with an encrypted file system (which both iOS and Android have, I believe even as default), you still have the same security problems you mentioned on an Android device.

What might be a good idea for a penetration tester who eats sleeps and shits security, might not be a good idea for me. I take my personal security into serious consideration, but I also run the numbers. The likelihood that someone will not only manage to steal the one Android device I ever keep on me (my phone), the absolute best he will have is a token to a couple accounts I can, within a moment's notice, destroy the validity of those tokens, and reset all passwords.

[bd139]

Your threat model is wrong. If i lose my device I shrug. If I get mugged I hand it over without getting stabbed. No reasonable attack window exists after that event.

No one in our front office or POS uses laptops. They have iPads and desktops. Desktops are locked into desks, have encrypted disks and are in DMZ.

Average joe is better off with iOS. It’s harder to fuck up and there’s a longer support life. A fine example is the whole Facebook mess. People will just click through anything.

This all comes down to the design philosophy. Do you start with a sieve and put tape over the holes (Android)? No.

You can’t add security later. You have to build it in and you need a layered security model.

Also iOS does have a file system. It’s based on isolated and partitioned storage. The new file browser adds nothing but a UI for what is already there.

I get the feeling a lot of people don’t know or understand the platforms they like to moan about.

[Mr. Scram]

Your threat model is wrong. If i lose my device I shrug. If I get mugged I hand it over without getting stabbed. No reasonable attack window exists after that event.

No one in our front office or POS uses laptops. They have iPads and desktops. Desktops are locked into desks, have encrypted disks and are in DMZ.

Average joe is better off with iOS. It’s harder to fuck up and there’s a longer support life. A fine example is the whole Facebook mess. People will just click through anything.

This all comes down to the design philosophy. Do you start with a sieve and put tape over the holes (Android)? No.

You can’t add security later. You have to build it in and you need a layered security model.

Also iOS does have a file system. It’s based on isolated and partitioned storage. The new file browser adds nothing but a UI for what is already there.

I get the feeling a lot of people don’t know or understand the platforms they like to moan about.

The problem is that people are very adamant in their statements, as can be seen in this thread too. However, they rarely explain their reasons for these statements other than some fairly vague proxy statements.

[Halcyon]

The problem is that people are very adamant in their statements, as can be seen in this thread too. However, they rarely explain their reasons for these statements other than some fairly vague proxy statements.

Indeed they are. But that's to be expected on any internet forum. At least at the EEVblog, it's mostly civilised and I think the knowledge level is a few standards above the average. But yes, a lot of opinion is thrown around as fact.

Anyway getting back on-topic...

I've literally been doing DIY PC building for decades. I highly encourage it.

I second that! Stick with industry standard parts in industry standard form factors. Want to replace or upgrade something? Do it yourself. The key is to make sure you do your homework properly (many fail miserably at this). That means research what components work best with your motherboard and remember the rule: Cheap, Fast, Reliable; Pick two.

[rfspezi]

I owned and serviced almost all generations of iPads, iPhones and iPad minis.
It's a fact that Apple slows down the devices with each iOS update.
As a lacy and sadly accepted excuse, they of course argue with new performance demanding features.
WHAT A BULLSHIT!

What Apple is really good at is making you beleave that your device got so slow because of 100 new emojis - even though you never open the messaging app!!

Apple philosophy somehow reminds me on VW exhaust management philosophy - everybody knows that manipulations are made but nobody wants to beleave it.
Sounds like a religion??? 

[rsjsouza]

Latest from Louis "da man" Rossmann:

https://youtu.be/oNl2q6YZXlA

[Distelzombie]

The penetration testers we used, from four companies all universally suggested dumping android because of the malware infection risk and short cycle abandonment of android by the vendors. iOS was noted as preferred as there is one single control point and the MDM solution allows for sufficient hardening, a defined support lifecycle and a good history of response by vendor for new attacks.

The pen testers all explained that they use iOS for their handsets. The rationale behind this was they applied MDM policies on their own devices and had better control of data sharing. The phones were universally not used for any document handling of any sort. They left that to their MacBooks which were running Linux...

Honestly the answer we had was: if you use have mobile devices, make them iOS as you can cover the loss and infection vectors due to the Secure Enclave.

The pen testers we hire are well known and publish many CVEs themselves. We’re in the middle of London in the financial sector. We only hire the best guys on the market, some of whom we know from our not strictly white hat background.

Of course they were talking about manufacturer provided Android distributions. Put a custom ROM on it and you can harden that thing to any degree. As I said before, they were talking to you as the average user who doesn't want to give up comfort. In that case Apple is better. But after apple comes custom ROM android.
They probably told you they also use what they suggested you, just so they don't have to explain why they suggested you something they themselves don't trust. Common behavior when talking to people who wouldn't understand anyway.

[BrianHG]

I owned and serviced almost all generations of iPads, iPhones and iPad minis.
It's a fact that Apple slows down the devices with each iOS update.
As a lacy and sadly accepted excuse, they of course argue with new performance demanding features.
WHAT A BULLSHIT!

What Apple is really good at is making you beleave that your device got so slow because of 100 new emojis - even though you never open the messaging app!!

Apple philosophy somehow reminds me on VW exhaust management philosophy - everybody knows that manipulations are made but nobody wants to beleave it.
Sounds like a religion??? 

If I'm starting a new business, where my work PC always run the same editors/utilities, I cannot have my workflow slow down because of forced updates which may force me to upgrade to newer hardware when the original was originally fast enough.  This costs me money on 2 fronts, the slowdown costs me in salary & sales plus having to throw out old hardware, purchase and setup new hardware when Apple dictates so.  This isn't right.

[Harb]

Its all hype......30 macs here none have "slowed down"..........

[Electro Detective]

Its all hype......30 macs here none have "slowed down"..........

Same here, Mountain Lion rocks 


 

[Mr. Scram]

Its all hype......30 macs here none have "slowed down"..........

Are you sure?

https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/30/16951328/apple-iphone-battery-slow-down-software-update-department-of-justice-sec-investigation-probe

[Zero999]

Its all hype......30 macs here none have "slowed down"..........

Are you sure?

https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/30/16951328/apple-iphone-battery-slow-down-software-update-department-of-justice-sec-investigation-probe

That's the iphone. I believe Harb is talking about Mac desktop PCs, not the phones.

[Distelzombie]

I thought a Mac is not a PC. Louis got even almost sued because he made a PC out of Macs by repairing them with jumper wires, as he says. Ridiculous.

[Mr. Scram]

That's the iphone. I believe Harb is talking about Mac desktop PCs, not the phones.

It's an Apple thread, right?

[Zero999]

I thought a Mac is not a PC. Louis got even almost sued because he made a PC out of Macs by repairing them with jumper wires, as he says. Ridiculous.

PC just stands for Personal Computer, so a Mac desktop, is a type of PC. I suppose technically phones are also PCs, so one should say desktop PC.

[wraper]

I thought a Mac is not a PC. Louis got even almost sued because he made a PC out of Macs by repairing them with jumper wires, as he says. Ridiculous.

PC just stands for Personal Computer, so a Mac desktop, is a type of PC. I suppose technically phones are also PCs, so one should say desktop PC.

Tell that to Apple.

[Ampera]

I thought all Intel Macintoshes were IBM PC compatible. They just run a fancy version of BSD.

[Distelzombie]

I thought all Intel Macintoshes were IBM PC compatible. They just run a fancy version of BSD.

Ahem, *cough*, let me correct that for you: "They just run a fancy version of NEXT." *cough, cough*

[bd139]

Yes. OSX is remarkably similar to NEXTstep in function too. They haven’t bothered to hide a lot of that.

[Ampera]

I thought all Intel Macintoshes were IBM PC compatible. They just run a fancy version of BSD.

Ahem, *cough*, let me correct that for you: "They just run a fancy version of NEXT." *cough, cough*

I mean next is partially based on BSD code.

[BrianHG]

My main PC has run Win7 for about 4 years now.  It has yet to slow down at all.  My laptop is a different story, though, being similar spec and date, I can only assume the poor tiny 5400rpm drive is getting fragmented to hell with all the audio and video clips, large and small, going on and off it.

[Distelzombie]

My main PC has run Win7 for about 4 years now.  It has yet to slow down at all.  My laptop is a different story, though, being similar spec and date, I can only assume the poor tiny 5400rpm drive is getting fragmented to hell with all the audio and video clips, large and small, going on and off it.

Get an SSD? I bought a used one for my laptop: huuuge improvement. And "similar spec" on a laptop means usually "way worse".

[rdl]

You can defragment laptop drives the same as desktop, if that's what you meant. Otherwise yeah, get an SSD. They're cheap these days. Name brand 120-128 GB can be found for $40 or less.

Oh, and my Windows 7 machines don't slow down either.

[NiHaoMike]

So what? every Unix keeps its performance over time. Only Windows introduces stupid wrapping layers over time.
Gee, nowadays we have Windows Store apps that writes in XAML and JS, compared with a real programming language for client computers.
Linux can be as efficient as macOS, on PC hardware, and ATM my home network and storage is handled by a 4th gen i3-U server with 4GB of RAM, which if I run Windows on it it will crap out immediately.

I planned to do a major overhaul of my PC at 5 years. It's now about 6 years and still don't have a good reason to replace the CPU/motherboard. I was tempted into putting together a Ryzen system to mine some earnhoney (because my old Sandy Bridge E would use too much power doing that to be profitable), but then I calculated the break even point and it was silly long as in more than a year even with the very unrealistic assumption that difficulty stays constant. Too bad, because long story short, it would help in the fine tuning of upscaling algorithms for Nvidia GPUs.

PCs are like cars nowadays - replace it when there's a major breakdown that is uneconomical to fix. Otherwise, just keep using it. My next upgrade for my PC would be to add another SSD for the /opt directory because I installed Xilinx Vivado and now don't have very much space left on the root partition.

[Harb]

Its all hype......30 macs here none have "slowed down"..........

Are you sure?

https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/30/16951328/apple-iphone-battery-slow-down-software-update-department-of-justice-sec-investigation-probe

That's the iphone. I believe Harb is talking about Mac desktop PCs, not the phones.

Yep thats right......desktop or Laptop.......never an issue.....ever

[Zero999]

I've never owned a Mac desktop, only Windows and Linux machines.

Smart phone wise, I've only had two and I'm old fashioned in that I don't use them for much else than making calls or texting. I find the touch screen a pain to use, because my fingers are too fat. I'd rather use a keyboard, mouse and a large display, so avoid working on phones and tablets, where possible.

I've only had an Android phone, which I smashed, when I slipped on ice last winter and currently have some old iPhone, which was given to me by someone who was getting the latest model. I admit I do prefer the iOS, over Android, user interface wise. I find it more intuitive and the touch screen recognises my typing better, than the Android phone even though it's smaller.

Would I buy an iPhone over an Android phone? No. I don't consider the improvement in user interface to be worth the extra cost. I also listen to people here when they talk of problems with their Apple devices.  I think it would be silly not to listen to the experience of experts. I also dislike Apple's use of non-standard connectors and headphone socket, which is silly. The device slowdown update scandal is also a factor in my decision, even though I don't believe it has affected me, I don'y buy Apple's excuse that it's to save battery life and not to encourage new sales.

[Halcyon]

I've only had an Android phone, which I smashed, when I slipped on ice last winter and currently have some old iPhone, which was given to me by someone who was getting the latest model. I admit I do prefer the iOS, over Android, user interface wise. I find it more intuitive and the touch screen recognises my typing better, than the Android phone even though it's smaller.

I will admit that Apple's implementation of the on-screen keyboard works very well, better than a lot of Android handsets I've used. However I also find that with Android keyboards, it's very much manufacturer specific and how they implement the keyboard. Previously I had an LG and I would always hit the period button instead of the space bar.

I now have a Samsung Galaxy S8, which conveniently allows me to resize and reconfigure the keyboard to suit my hands/muscle memory or if I'm doing one-handed typing, something that I couldn't do on the LG.

But as I've said many times, my gripe isn't nesessarily with Apple's operating system and software. All that comes down to personal opinion. I can see why people like IOS/MacOS, but I can also sympathise with those that hate it. The two biggest issues are with the way Apple don't really give a shit about their users once they've bought the device and their hardware, which isn't that innovative and lately has been kind of rubbish. I can build a better quality PC which will outlast any Apple for cheaper.

[Distelzombie]

Try Swiftkey if you don't like the keyboard. One plus for Android is that nobody telly you what app to use for anything. Choose yourself.
Swiftkey is the best keyboard app I could found. I tested many, 6+. Best predictions, customizations, comfort

[tooki]

Try Swiftkey if you don't like the keyboard. One plus for Android is that nobody telly you what app to use for anything. Choose yourself.
Swiftkey is the best keyboard app I could found. I tested many, 6+. Best predictions, customizations, comfort

I really like SwiftKey on iOS, too, better than the stock keyboard. What keeps me from using it is that I routinely write in 4 languages, and SwiftKey only lets you choose two at a time.

[Mr. Scram]

I will admit that Apple's implementation of the on-screen keyboard works very well, better than a lot of Android handsets I've used. However I also find that with Android keyboards, it's very much manufacturer specific and how they implement the keyboard. Previously I had an LG and I would always hit the period button instead of the space bar.

I now have a Samsung Galaxy S8, which conveniently allows me to resize and reconfigure the keyboard to suit my hands/muscle memory or if I'm doing one-handed typing, something that I couldn't do on the LG.

But as I've said many times, my gripe isn't nesessarily with Apple's operating system and software. All that comes down to personal opinion. I can see why people like IOS/MacOS, but I can also sympathise with those that hate it. The two biggest issues are with the way Apple don't really give a shit about their users once they've bought the device and their hardware, which isn't that innovative and lately has been kind of rubbish. I can build a better quality PC which will outlast any Apple for cheaper.

The problem with the keyboard in iOS is that it doesn't have all the tricks that other keyboards have. Using a third party keyboard in iOS a good way of fixing that, but it is suprisingly painful. When you set a third party keyboard in Android, you tend to forget it's even a different keyboard. Only when you switch devices you remember to set the same third party keyboard for that same consistent experience. In iOS the default keyboard tends to switch itself back regularly and not always at predictable times and can be painfully slow to load in. It's certainly workable, but when it comes to keyboards Android seems to fare better. That's what I consider to be a seemless experience.

[tooki]

I thought all Intel Macintoshes were IBM PC compatible. They just run a fancy version of BSD.

Some parts of Darwin (the underlying OSS OS) are taken from FreeBSD, IIRC.

As for the hardware, it's not 100% IBM PC architecture. 99.9%, but with a custom EFI firmware. Part of what the Boot Camp* tool does is to install (or perhaps just enable, in later Intel Macs?) a BIOS compatibility mode so that Windows can boot**. With that, stock Windows boots fine, though it doesn't have drivers for all the Apple custom hardware bits. (Modern Windows has no trouble finding the drivers for all the basic hardware.)


*Boot Camp is the name of Apple's setup tool for Intel Macs to configure a dual-boot environment with Windows. It installs a BIOS compatibility mode, performs an on-the-fly disk repartitioning to give you an NTFS partition for Windows, and then sets up an installer for Windows to install all the drivers (both for the COTS components like mobo chipset, graphics chip, network interfaces, etc, as well as basic drivers for the custom Apple hardware like trackpads, keyboard, webcam, power management, etc., and a config utility to let you select the startup disk), and finally starts the Windows setup process.

**Just a little disclaimer: It's been years since I ran Boot Camp last, so I haven't done it on the latest Mac models, nor with any Windows that came after Win 7. So it's possible that newer Windows supports booting Apple's weirdo EFI implementation directly, as well as the process perhaps being different on newer Mac models. So just bear in mind that my info might be a bit dated.

[tooki]

I will admit that Apple's implementation of the on-screen keyboard works very well, better than a lot of Android handsets I've used. However I also find that with Android keyboards, it's very much manufacturer specific and how they implement the keyboard. Previously I had an LG and I would always hit the period button instead of the space bar.

I now have a Samsung Galaxy S8, which conveniently allows me to resize and reconfigure the keyboard to suit my hands/muscle memory or if I'm doing one-handed typing, something that I couldn't do on the LG.

But as I've said many times, my gripe isn't nesessarily with Apple's operating system and software. All that comes down to personal opinion. I can see why people like IOS/MacOS, but I can also sympathise with those that hate it. The two biggest issues are with the way Apple don't really give a shit about their users once they've bought the device and their hardware, which isn't that innovative and lately has been kind of rubbish. I can build a better quality PC which will outlast any Apple for cheaper.

The problem with the keyboard in iOS is that it doesn't have all the tricks that other keyboards have. Using a third party keyboard in iOS a good way of fixing that, but it is suprisingly painful. When you set a third party keyboard in Android, you tend to forget it's even a different keyboard. Only when you switch devices you remember to set the same third party keyboard for that same consistent experience. In iOS the default keyboard tends to switch itself back regularly and not always at predictable times and can be painfully slow to load in. It's certainly workable, but when it comes to keyboards Android seems to fare better. That's what I consider to be a seemless experience.

Oh, you're absolutely right. You can prevent it from switching back to the stock keyboard by disabling it, so that it only has, say, SwiftKey enabled. It will, however, still revert to the stock keyboard for password entry IIRC. It will also do that if the third-party keyboard (henceforth 3PK) crashes. (Behind the scenes, a 3PK is a user-space app that runs fairly normally, other than being overlaid on the keyboard area of the screen.)

It's absolutely true that in iOS, 3PKs are not seamless. And from a technical standpoint, I totally understand why (Apple runs them heavily sandboxed, to reduce the risk of them sucking user data and sending it off, or causing system instability, as have happened with some Android keyboards). But from a user perspective it's a decidedly degraded experience.

Another problem with 3PKs in iOS is compatibility with third-party apps: the latter are often never tested with non-stock keyboards, and so they're often buggy with 3PKs. For example, the Facebook app detects friends' names as you type so you can tag them. For a long time, with SwiftKey, this went something like this: suppose you're typing 'Thomas Sanchez' to tag him, and by the time you've typed "Thomas San" you've narrowed it down to just him, and tap it. The result in the text was something like "Thomas SanThomas Sanchez".

After a few versions of iOS with 3PK support, they did add more hooks to the OS to give keyboards deeper access to the text input fields, after asking for explicit user permission and explaining the risk. This has helped a lot with app incompatibility.

[tooki]

Yes. OSX is remarkably similar to NEXTstep in function too. They haven’t bothered to hide a lot of that.

Well, in a sense, with NeXT being Steve Jobs' second major GUI, it was in many ways "Mac interface 2.0". Some of that was better than the Mac's, some not so good (*cough* gimme a damned spatial Finder!! *cough*). But there's no question: macOS/OS X is a direct descendant of OpenStep (the renamed NeXT OS, once it had been liberated from running on only NeXT brand hardware), with some GUI elements and even window layouts being essentially unchanged (other than being skinned differently) from NeXT.

The first Apple reseller I ever worked at, in 1999, had also been a NeXT reseller in the past, and they actually still used a NeXT workstation in the back office for a few things, so I got a chance to use NeXT in its "pure" incarnation. I was a super Mac nerd back in those days, and managed to get my hands on various prerelease copies of Rhapsody (Apple's code name for OpenStep as it was given plastic surgery to morph it into the likeness of Mac OS 8), and then Mac OS X Server 1.0 (not 10.0!!), which was literally just a Power Mac build of OpenStep with the Mac OS 8 skin and support for Mac-formatted disks and network protocols bolted on, and then early developer preview releases of Mac OS X, some of which had the Mac OS X Server 1.0 skin, while later ones moved to the new Aqua interface (which also replaced the Display PostScript graphics layer with Display PDF). It was really fascinating to see the NeXT user interface gradually morph into the modern Mac interface. And at the same time as the window dressing, they did major under-the-hood work:
a) the framework to let classic Mac OS run in a virtual machine for running legacy Mac apps
b) updated versions of the Mac APIs to make it easy for developers to port their existing Mac apps to Mac OS X
c) entirely new frameworks to support app developers in writing modern new apps
d) added PowerPC support (while keeping OpenStep's x86 support, though totally changing how fat binaries are constructed)

It was quite the feat of engineering IMHO.

[wraper]

[tooki]

Another video from Rossman whining about Apple’s supposed rampant failures, I’m shocked...

His entire business is built around servicing machines that Apple, for various reasons, won’t service, or that the customer doesn’t want to pay Apple’s repair price for. (And it’s great that he offers this option.) That said, he doesn’t see the millions of Apple devices that never fail. He doesn’t acknowledge the high percentage of the time that Apple’s own customer service does do right by the customer, never mind when they go above and beyond sometimes.

Surveys consistently show Apple’s product reliability to be above average, and customer satisfaction (which is of course a result not only of the devices themselves, but how Apple handles failures if they do occur) to be at the front of the pack, year after year after year. So even with the occasional exception, the overwhelming majority of customers are very happy.

Listening to Rossman, you’d think that every Apple product sold was doomed to premature failure. But if that were actually true, it would be reflected in the statistics, and it’s just not.

The Apple haters will of course dismiss it as “the crApple Sheep cult members will do anything Apple says”, but that’s a cheap cop-out that simply exposes the fact that they don’t understand the true reasons people buy Apple products, and by extension the fact that they can’t explain Apple’s success. Brand affinity explains some, but decidedly not the only, reason for choosing Apple. What keeps customers coming back is that the products largely work as expected, are easy for non-engineers to use, and prove reliable, both in intrinsic reliability, but also in recovery from failure. (If your Apple product fails and must be replaced, provided you’ve used the built-in backup features, you’re up and running on a replacement unit within hours, with all apps, data, and settings exactly as you left them, compared to days or longer re-configuring a competing product.) Investment in the ecosystem (especially software) is a factor, too (just as it is for anyone who’s used any platform for a while).

In a nutshell, no matter what the Apple haters say, the proof is in the pudding: Apple customers keep coming back. There is no coercion, no religion, no cult. Just a large group of largely satisfied customers. A self-selected minority of exceptions doesn’t disprove the overall picture.

[Distelzombie]

Apart from the device that still work: if you have a problem with one and it's the manufacturers fault, don't you think they should do something? They apparently just ignore until they get sued. Is that not a problem for you?

[Richard Crowley]

Reports are that Apple fans are becoming weary of the expensive treadmill. 
Top end phone sales are in a downturn in favor of more sensibly priced models.

Share prices of Apple suppliers fall on ‘deeper trough’ of iPhone X sales
https://9to5mac.com/2018/04/24/iphone-x-sales-apple-suppliers/

Almost nobody wants the iPhone X
"But analysts say that tide is shifting: Dramatically fewer people are buying the latest iPhones."
https://qz.com/1260811/apples-second-quarter-2018-analyst-expect-poor-iphone-x-sales/

etc.....

[BradC]

Reports are that Apple fans are becoming weary of the expensive treadmill. 
Top end phone sales are in a downturn in favor of more sensibly priced models.

I'd suspect that has exactly *zero* to do with "blah blah Apple fans are tired of..."  and everything to do with Apple having built a phone few people find attractive (for whatever reason).

Nobody gets it right all the time, and the market lets them know in precisely this manner.

[filssavi]

Apart from the device that still work: if you have a problem with one and it's the manufacturers fault, don't you think they should do something? They apparently just ignore until they get sued. Is that not a problem for you?

As if other manufacturer acted differently....

But if Samsung/ASUS/dell have the same behaviour it is apparently fine

[Halcyon]

Surveys consistently show Apple’s product reliability to be above average, and customer satisfaction (which is of course a result not only of the devices themselves, but how Apple handles failures if they do occur) to be at the front of the pack, year after year after year. So even with the occasional exception, the overwhelming majority of customers are very happy.

Could you link us to some of the results of these surveys? Because it seems there is about a 50/50 split between owners of Apple devices. Half of the people I speak to have an Apple device but are going to "upgrade" (their word, not mine) to an Android device once their plan is finished or the phone dies because of dissatisfaction.

The other half love their devices for a wide range of reasons or simply don't care.

It just seems to me that there is a high proportion of Apple-owners who are not satisfied either with their devices and/or the service they get (or don't get) from Apple. They are also getting frustrated that as manufacturers of Android (and other) OS's continue to innovate, improve and provide wider options, Apple just regurgitate the same crap with a new box.

Look at the market share over the last 5 years alone (which is a far more reliable indicator of than a survey). iOS has claimed on average a 35% market share (in Australia). It's been fairly stable despite the increased uptake in smart phones and tablet devices by consumers (growing about 11% each year). However Android remains dominant at around 65% and growing.

In a nutshell, no matter what the Apple haters say, the proof is in the pudding: Apple customers keep coming back. There is no coercion, no religion, no cult. Just a large group of largely satisfied customers. A self-selected minority of exceptions doesn’t disprove the overall picture.

I think you'd be a little naive to think that all Apple owners are returning, simply because they like their products. There is also a significant portion who are not technically minded, who stick with Apple products not because they necessarily want to, but because they find switching just too difficult or too daunting.

In my experience for every 1 person I hear who love their Apple products and would keep buying them, I get another 1-2 people complain about their past experience with Apple hardware and are either going to switch or have already switched to alternatives. But yes, as you said, the proof is indeed in the pudding.

Louis is absolutely spot on when he said "Consumers need to start thinking better, to think beyond, to think durable, fixable, usable... better."

I will gladly purchase an Apple laptop, smart phone or desktop computer when:

1. Their premium price is backed up by premium, long-lasting and reliable hardware,
2. Their design compliments the user, not restrict them by removing features people like,
3. They allow me to upgrade key components without requiring an electrical engineering background,
4. They allow me to upgrade/repair components myself and be able to get the damned thing back together again, and,
5. When they stop screwing the customer by either bricking their devices, disabling features or deleting user data between software updates.

If those 5 things happen, I will seriously consider an Apple product for myself. Until then, no thanks. I'll stick with the faster, more reliable and more durable alternatives.

[helius]

Apple products are the only ones supported by a lot of corporate IT departments now. Judging by complaints about this state of affairs, a lot of users have them because they are forced to, not because they prefer them.

[EEVblog]

[BrianHG]

This 1 VIDEO!!!!!! 
It exists on page 3 of this thread.
It exists on page 4 of this thread.
Now, thanks to Dave, it exists on page 6 of this thread! 

[EEVblog]

This 1 VIDEO!!!!!! 
It exists on page 3 of this thread.
It exists on page 4 of this thread.
Now, thanks to Dave, it exists on page 6 of this thread! 

Doh, shows I don't follow this thread.

[Halcyon]

Apple products are the only ones supported by a lot of corporate IT departments now. Judging by complaints about this state of affairs, a lot of users have them because they are forced to, not because they prefer them.

Unfortunately this is true.

Thankfully many of those departments in Australia who took on Apple servers and clients have since dumped them, if for no other reason than it ended up costing much more.

[bd139]

We’ve got a ton of both types of machines (over 100 each). They’re about the same for TCO. Thing we find with windows is that it costs more in support and subscriptions whereas the initial capital is more for the macs. So over 3 years about the same. Failure rate of PCs is much higher (7% vs 2%) and we buy high end HP stuff only.

You’ll find the office staff will take a PC if there is a choice and the power users and developers will take the macs. Honestly though the gap is closing thanks the WSL etc. WSL is closer to target environments than OSX.

You’d have to be mad to run Apple servers however. zero point in that.

[tooki]

Apart from the device that still work: if you have a problem with one and it's the manufacturers fault, don't you think they should do something? They apparently just ignore until they get sued. Is that not a problem for you?

You missed the point about the selection bias: What makes the news are the instances when they haven’t done enough. The millions of times when they have done things right aren’t considered newsworthy.

Reports are that Apple fans are becoming weary of the expensive treadmill. 
Top end phone sales are in a downturn in favor of more sensibly priced models.

Share prices of Apple suppliers fall on ‘deeper trough’ of iPhone X sales
https://9to5mac.com/2018/04/24/iphone-x-sales-apple-suppliers/

Almost nobody wants the iPhone X
"But analysts say that tide is shifting: Dramatically fewer people are buying the latest iPhones."
https://qz.com/1260811/apples-second-quarter-2018-analyst-expect-poor-iphone-x-sales/

etc.....

Bear in mind that it’s become an annual sport to report that [latest iPhone model] sales are down, only for Apple to announce a few months later that it’s been a smashing success. The “analysts” IMHO often are using their own anal cavity as their primary source of data.

Apart from the device that still work: if you have a problem with one and it's the manufacturers fault, don't you think they should do something? They apparently just ignore until they get sued. Is that not a problem for you?

As if other manufacturer acted differently....

But if Samsung/ASUS/dell have the same behaviour it is apparently fine

Yup, Apple is held to an entirely diffferent set of standards in the media, and by extension by a lot of popular opinion.

Surveys consistently show Apple’s product reliability to be above average, and customer satisfaction (which is of course a result not only of the devices themselves, but how Apple handles failures if they do occur) to be at the front of the pack, year after year after year. So even with the occasional exception, the overwhelming majority of customers are very happy.

Could you link us to some of the results of these surveys? Because it seems there is about a 50/50 split between owners of Apple devices. Half of the people I speak to have an Apple device but are going to "upgrade" (their word, not mine) to an Android device once their plan is finished or the phone dies because of dissatisfaction.

Look up the surveys from ACPI, JD Powers, etc. Apple continues to be at the front of the pack. Note that I am not saying that others (especially Samsung) are bad. They’re not.

The other half love their devices for a wide range of reasons or simply don't care.

The vast majority of people don’t care about their devices anywhere near as much as we nerds do.

It just seems to me that there is a high proportion of Apple-owners who are not satisfied either with their devices and/or the service they get (or don't get) from Apple.

Selection bias again: all the people who are happy don’t really talk about it.

They are also getting frustrated that as manufacturers of Android (and other) OS's continue to innovate, improve and provide wider options, Apple just regurgitate the same crap with a new box.

Except that this is demonstrably untrue.
 

Look at the market share over the last 5 years alone (which is a far more reliable indicator of than a survey). iOS has claimed on average a 35% market share (in Australia). It's been fairly stable despite the increased uptake in smart phones and tablet devices by consumers (growing about 11% each year). However Android remains dominant at around 65% and growing.

No, market share is a terrible indicator of satisfaction. High market share is in no way indicative of customer satisfaction, and vice versa, because many factors come into play. Comcast may have the highest market share of ISPs, but its customer satisfaction is abyssmal. Luxury brands like BWM have excellent satisfaction scores but garner single-digit market share. (And nobody thinks they're wrong for doing this.)

Apple has never chased market share in earnest. Its primary goals continue to be customer satisfaction and profit. And one key element to this strategy is, plain and simply, avoiding the low end of the market, where cheap products reduce customer satisfaction and at the same time have razor-thin profit margins. (John Gruber has written about market share vs profit share extensively.)

In a nutshell, no matter what the Apple haters say, the proof is in the pudding: Apple customers keep coming back. There is no coercion, no religion, no cult. Just a large group of largely satisfied customers. A self-selected minority of exceptions doesn’t disprove the overall picture.

I think you'd be a little naive to think that all Apple owners are returning, simply because they like their products. There is also a significant portion who are not technically minded, who stick with Apple products not because they necessarily want to, but because they find switching just too difficult or too daunting.

It’s not naïveté, my list of reasons was not exhaustive, I listed only a few. And I actually did mention a related topic (investment in ecosystem), which together with your comment basically form a signficant barrier to switching, namely, friction. Switching from any platform to another involves friction, and for someone to bother, the benefits of switching must exceed the friction. And frankly, for most people, the benefits aren’t big enough. We saw this with computers: despite Windows’ annoyances in its most frustrating days (e.g. Win 95-XP), for most people it was good enough, and the friction of moving to Mac was great enough to make most people not bother. The advent of the Web, with tons of end-user applications moving from native apps to Web apps, removed a significant source of friction, and we saw an uptick in switchers. But nonetheless, these days any major OS is adequate for the average user, and so most stick with what they know.

In my experience for every 1 person I hear who love their Apple products and would keep buying them, I get another 1-2 people complain about their past experience with Apple hardware and are either going to switch or have already switched to alternatives. But yes, as you said, the proof is indeed in the pudding.

Louis is absolutely spot on when he said "Consumers need to start thinking better, to think beyond, to think durable, fixable, usable... better."

I will gladly purchase an Apple laptop, smart phone or desktop computer when:

1. Their premium price is backed up by premium, long-lasting and reliable hardware,
2. Their design compliments the user, not restrict them by removing features people like,
3. They allow me to upgrade key components without requiring an electrical engineering background,
4. They allow me to upgrade/repair components myself and be able to get the damned thing back together again, and,
5. When they stop screwing the customer by either bricking their devices, disabling features or deleting user data between software updates.

If those 5 things happen, I will seriously consider an Apple product for myself. Until then, no thanks. I'll stick with the faster, more reliable and more durable alternatives.

1. Data indicates Apple products as having significantly above-average usable lifetimes. (E.g Macs are used on average for 4 years, vs. just 3 for Windows, before replacement. And iPhones receive major OS updates on average for 4 years, vs 2 or less for nearly all Android phones.)

2. There is no one user. What’s a feature to one user may be a downside to another. (E.g. classic tradeoff between weight and features.) This is why there are different models. But Apple also is very explicit about not trying to be everything to everyone: there are markets they choose not to enter.

3/4. Sorta #2, but I kinda agree with you on this, at least insofar as I think there needs to be at least one properly-upgradeable model available. (I love my 2008 Mac Pro for this reason. Upgrades have kept it eminently usable even at age 10.)

5. Nearly total FUD.
a) Bricking: Device bricking has lots of causes, and frankly most aren’t malicious. (We as EEs of all people should understand this.) The primary reason for component authentication is for security via chain of trust, which is clearly necessary given the amount of private data on a modern device, and the multitude of actors (advertisers, thieves, governments, etc.) who’d love to access our data, and actively try to do so. It does make repair more difficult, and that sucks, I agree. But I’d rather that than a device that is easily compromised. 
b) Disabling features: While it does sometimes happen, IMHO this claim is blown wildly out of proportion. There is no question in my mind that iOS and macOS upgrades, on the balance, have added FAR more features than they’ve taken away. (Don’t believe me? Try going back to a version a few versions back. Suddenly you notice all the missing stuff that was slowly added.) The big exception, the one where I agree Apple has taken a lot, is in pro software, especially Mac OS X Server and Final Cut Pro. In the latter especially, the ground-up rewrite meant losing tons of features that had been accumulated along the way. (The same thing happened in the Pages/Numbers/Keynote and iMovie rewrites, though all of those recovered faster, since their original feature sets were smaller than Final Cut’s, so rebuilding them wasn’t such a daunting task.)
c) Deleting user data between updates: Say what now??? I’ve never lost data in an upgrade, and my iPhone setup has been migrated seamlessly all the way from an original iPhone (the 2G one in 2007) running iPhone OS 1.0. Even more impessively, my Mac Pro’s OS install and user data has been upgraded progressively from Mac OS X 10.2.8 on a PowerBook G4 all the way to Mac OS X 10.11 (the highest supported on that Mac Pro), which covered not only the 10.2->10.5 upgrades on the PowerBook, but then the shift to the Intel architecture on the Mac Pro (10.5 was a universal binary that ran on both!). So literally I’m running a user profile first configured in 2003. I have no idea where you get the idea that upgrades delete data. This is literally something where Apple excels head-and-shoulders above the rest.

We’ve got a ton of both types of machines (over 100 each). They’re about the same for TCO. Thing we find with windows is that it costs more in support and subscriptions whereas the initial capital is more for the macs. So over 3 years about the same. Failure rate of PCs is much higher (7% vs 2%) and we buy high end HP stuff only.

Thanks for the data. I’m sure the TCO differential varies wildly depending on industry and company size, too. (As well as, frankly, the skill of the sysadmins!)

You’ll find the office staff will take a PC if there is a choice and the power users and developers will take the macs. Honestly though the gap is closing thanks the WSL etc. WSL is closer to target environments than OSX.

I think office staff, being typically less tech-savvy (and thus less interested in changing their technology) and having typically used Windows for such tasks, is happy to stick with it (and why should they change?!?). And while MS Office for Mac has been around forever (literally longer than on Windows!), until recently it has not had total feature parity with Office for Windows, and the missing features tended to be business-oriented. So totally understandable.

WSL is interesting indeed.

You’d have to be mad to run Apple servers however. zero point in that.

Well, given that Apple doesnt even sell server hardware anymore... For sure there are sound reasons for running a Mac OS X Server server in a corporate network with Macs, for a few things. But with Macs and PCs largely using the same protocols for everything now (mostly via the Mac learning all the MS protocols), there’s not much need for separate Mac servers anymore.

[Edit: fixed nested formatting errors.]

[GreyWoolfe]

Apple products are the only ones supported by a lot of corporate IT departments now. Judging by complaints about this state of affairs, a lot of users have them because they are forced to, not because they prefer them.

Unfortunately this is true.

Thankfully many of those departments in Australia who took on Apple servers and clients have since dumped them, if for no other reason than it ended up costing much more.

My company is stuck in this loop.  We use iPhone 7.  No one really likes them and the software we need to use is also available for Android.  Maybe some day we will switch, I doubt it.  I will admit that the hotspot works well but part of that is being on Verizon.

[Bud]

Does this guy ever comb his hair?

[Richard Crowley]

I have two Apple devices, a touch Ipod, and a mini tablet. They are both essentially bricked because I can't recover my Apple account to manage them. Last time I tried, they locked me out for 21 days and then never sent the recovery email they promised.  If I can ever recover my account, I'm going to wipe them and get rid of them for whatever somebody will pay (assuming they are worth anything at all).

I got the touch Ipad for the usual purpose, to listen to music and audiobooks, etc. But Apple decided that if I uploaded something that was available from their streaming service, they would unilaterally delete it without my knowledge or permission.  "This is available online" they say. But my reason for loading it is because I don't want to burn wireless data charges AND I am frequently in areas not covered by wireless service at any price.  I am totally fed up with their "we know better" attitude.  Just sell me something straightforward that I can manage for myself and stop treating me like an idiot.

[Mr. Scram]

We’ve got a ton of both types of machines (over 100 each). They’re about the same for TCO. Thing we find with windows is that it costs more in support and subscriptions whereas the initial capital is more for the macs. So over 3 years about the same. Failure rate of PCs is much higher (7% vs 2%) and we buy high end HP stuff only.

You’ll find the office staff will take a PC if there is a choice and the power users and developers will take the macs. Honestly though the gap is closing thanks the WSL etc. WSL is closer to target environments than OSX.

You’d have to be mad to run Apple servers however. zero point in that.

How in the world do you end up with a 7% failure rate? That's massive and unlike the numbers I know. Is it a sample group of about a 100 pieces? Because it seems that it may very well be a matter of a small sample group paired with bad luck.

[Distelzombie]

Apart from the device that still work: if you have a problem with one and it's the manufacturers fault, don't you think they should do something? They apparently just ignore until they get sued. Is that not a problem for you?

You missed the point about the selection bias: What makes the news are the instances when they haven’t done enough. The millions of times when they have done things right aren’t considered newsworthy.

If you go that route, then you're guilty of the McNamara fallacy (Only the numbers count), Survivorship bias (ignore all the bad things), Pro-innovation bias (apple builds only the best stuff, "Apple is wonderful" effect), Law of the instrument (Using your selection bias for everything), maybe even Hostile attribution bias (Because we fucking hate Apple and want it to die, nothing we say holds any meaning).

OK?

[bd139]

We’ve got a ton of both types of machines (over 100 each). They’re about the same for TCO. Thing we find with windows is that it costs more in support and subscriptions whereas the initial capital is more for the macs. So over 3 years about the same. Failure rate of PCs is much higher (7% vs 2%) and we buy high end HP stuff only.

You’ll find the office staff will take a PC if there is a choice and the power users and developers will take the macs. Honestly though the gap is closing thanks the WSL etc. WSL is closer to target environments than OSX.

You’d have to be mad to run Apple servers however. zero point in that.

How in the world do you end up with a 7% failure rate? That's massive and unlike the numbers I know. Is it a sample group of about a 100 pieces? Because it seems that it may very well be a matter of a small sample group paired with bad luck.

Got some numbers. 171 desktop PCs. 7% failure rate in 36 months. 90% of the failed units failed within 6 months. Failures were 40% down to one model of desktop. Rest were random. We planned for 5% failure every year so this was good after the spike of dead machines near the start.

[rsjsouza]

bd139, I know it may be too much to ask, but do you know the nature of the failures?

In my experience from a deployment of thousands of laptops, the split is very favourable to Dell when compared to Toshiba (both business lines) - most of Dells had HDD or battery failures (easily replaceable on-site), while Toshibas suffered more with keyboards, and screen hinges. About a year ago, Macs started to be introduced (mostly to middle management; developers prefer regular PCs with Windows or Linux) and there haven't been reports of severe issues yet apart from the occasional missing/broken stupid dongle, but there are already issues here and there with their terrible choice for cable insulation.

[bd139]

These were HP desktops. Mainly "completely dead" without diagnosis. Wouldn't power on.

[BradC]

Got some numbers. 171 desktop PCs. 7% failure rate in 36 months. 90% of the failed units failed within 6 months. Failures were 40% down to one model of desktop. Rest were random. We planned for 5% failure every year so this was good after the spike of dead machines near the start.

Hey you! Yes, you. Don't go contaminating a vaguely anecdotal beat-up with facts or figures. That's not allowed!

[bd139]

 

BTW we have 43 MacBook Pros. Zero failures in 3 years. Someone popped the screen on theirs, and I did the screen in on mine  but that doesn't count. Had 3 iMac failures out of 89 machines, all panel failures and all after 2 years.

Trying to find PC laptop failures but the pile of about 50 dead Dells says something...

[steverino]

Reports are that Apple fans are becoming weary of the expensive treadmill. 
Top end phone sales are in a downturn in favor of more sensibly priced models.

Share prices of Apple suppliers fall on ‘deeper trough’ of iPhone X sales
https://9to5mac.com/2018/04/24/iphone-x-sales-apple-suppliers/

Almost nobody wants the iPhone X
"But analysts say that tide is shifting: Dramatically fewer people are buying the latest iPhones."
https://qz.com/1260811/apples-second-quarter-2018-analyst-expect-poor-iphone-x-sales/

etc.....

I switched to Macs about 15 years ago.  I've purchased 4 2013 macbook pros for myself and family (all still running, despite liquid spills, which thanks to Louis Rossmann, I've been able to repair).  I would have upgraded to a new model except that I'm not sure who Apple is marketing to.  I refuse to purchase the lasted macbook pro incarnations.  When they die, I'll probably have to bite the bullet and step back into the Windows world (or maybe even linux, I hate Windows -- no flames please).

[TK]

I switched to Mac OS X 10 years ago after being so tired of Windows slowing down brand new powerful laptops and updating antivirus software almost every single day, dealing with Windows registry, software removal process that left tons of uninstalled pieces of software... Apple Mac OS X is the most end user friendly system that you can get, easy to maintain and all the OS upgrades are free.

[JanNousiainen]

I have used latest versions of Windows from 1993 until Windows 8.0 came out. Skipped 8.1 also and briefly tried Windows 10. Yuck. On my Windows machines I still run Windows 7 and sometimes even Vista.

Tried Linux Mint and liked it very much, used it as main OS for a year on my PC's

Then I bought one 10 year old iMac and liked the OS X and overall quality. Since then I have bought about 7 Macs, starting from G4 iMac and Mac Mini to 2011 Macbook Pro and Mac Pro. OS X versions I have in use span timeframe of ten years and they are remarkably similar, only details seem to change.

I also have feeling that Apple hardware is usable for a longer time than Windows machines, at least those made in 00's. Or at least they look and feel of much better quality while almost every PC is pretty forgetable affair.

Keep open mind and explore. You might get suprised

[Ampera]

Usable  is a relative term. The older a machine gets, you need to lower your expectations of what it is able to do.

I started off with Windows, and I still run it, with my essential lineage being NT5>WinXP>Win7>Win2016. My secondary is Arch Linux, which is a beauty to work with, and I truly love it. I wish I could use it, but much of the stuff I work with doesn't work with it. (Mostly games).

My experience with MacOS past System 9 is very minimal. I've used OS/X a few times, but as far as I can see, it's Unix with a fancy graphical shell. It doesn't have any applications that attract me to it, and as a techie, it doesn't offer me any conveniences, in fact to me, it honestly seems like it would be a burden of an OS.

A properly tuned Linux distro would probably be faster than OS/X, and if I wasn't bound by WinNT app support, I would daily drive Arch Linux.

[MT]

Apart from the device that still work: if you have a problem with one and it's the manufacturers fault, don't you think they should do something? They apparently just ignore until they get sued. Is that not a problem for you?

As if other manufacturer acted differently....

But if Samsung/ASUS/dell have the same behaviour it is apparently fine

Yes!

[Halcyon]

These were HP desktops. Mainly "completely dead" without diagnosis. Wouldn't power on.

Did you happen to use after-market DisplayPort cables? I've found with the newer Z-series Workstations, if you use after-market cables which aren't up to scratch, the machine won't power on. No idea why they've designed it that way. I found this out the hard way after about an hour.

Boot the machine up normally with the HP supplied cable, no problems. Disconnect and replace with longer, after-market DP cable (while the machine is running), no video sync. Reboot, red light on the front of the machine indicating "PSU failure", when that isn't the case.

[wraper]

Did you happen to use after-market DisplayPort cables? I've found with the newer Z-series Workstations, if you use after-market cables which aren't up to scratch, the machine won't power on. No idea why they've designed it that way. I found this out the hard way after about an hour.

Those crap cables are made not up to spec and may cause weird ass issues. They connect 5V pins in DP connector from both monitor and PC. This causes back powering PC from monitor while PC is turned off. Those 5V are supposed to power dongles/converters and similar stuff and must not connect within the cable.

[bd139]

These were HP desktops. Mainly "completely dead" without diagnosis. Wouldn't power on.

Did you happen to use after-market DisplayPort cables? I've found with the newer Z-series Workstations, if you use after-market cables which aren't up to scratch, the machine won't power on. No idea why they've designed it that way. I found this out the hard way after about an hour.

Boot the machine up normally with the HP supplied cable, no problems. Disconnect and replace with longer, after-market DP cable (while the machine is running), no video sync. Reboot, red light on the front of the machine indicating "PSU failure", when that isn't the case.

No these were the ones that came with them. They wouldn’t even post.

[jmelson]

When they die, I'll probably have to bite the bullet and step back into the Windows world (or maybe even linux, I hate Windows -- no flames please).

Well, if you are using Macs, then you are practically running Linux already.  OSX is BSD-derived, so the kernel ONLY is different, but all the standard utilities in Linux and BSD are compiled from the same sources.  All the network stuff is exactly the same code.  Of course, the main user-level utilities and the window manager are Apple's, but that REALLY is starting to look just like the Linux desktop, too.

I've been running Linux almost exclusively since 1998, and it works fine for me.  Yes, once in a while there is some issue with new media players or something, but you just do an update and everything is back to working.  I generally do NOT update unless something stops working - YouTube being the worst offender.

I laugh at all the people fretting with viruses and anti-virus software that misses all the new ones.  (But, then, as a Mac user, you probably do the same.)
Only a totally BRAIN-DEAD company would use the Microsoft model where you RUN any code anybody sends you!  In Linux, I occasionally get an infected file, load it into a spreadsheet or something and immediately get a warning that there are macros in it - do I want to run it?

As for reliability, my desktop computers often run for 9 months before there's a power failure, and my phone system is running a Debian-based Linux kernel with Asterisk software, and it has been running over a YEAR.  Even my web server, which is under constant attack on the net, usually stays up for months.  And, I don't even bother with a UPS here.

Jon

[Mr. Scram]

Got some numbers. 171 desktop PCs. 7% failure rate in 36 months. 90% of the failed units failed within 6 months. Failures were 40% down to one model of desktop. Rest were random. We planned for 5% failure every year so this was good after the spike of dead machines near the start.

That seems to confirm you've had a bad batch or model. Completely dead systems are rare as hen's teeth and nothing I ever encountered, other than one that was "fixed" by someone. 

While replacing approximately the same number of systems with generic HP boxes we haven't had a single failure, other than one USB port having bent pins and one screen being DOA. An equivalent number of machines a decade old and in continuous use is only approaching a 7% failure rate.

[Distelzombie]

... so tired of Windows slowing down brand new powerful laptops and updating antivirus software almost every single day, dealing with Windows registry, software removal process that left tons of uninstalled pieces of software...

-How do you know those brand new computer aren't that slow in the first place? They're brand new, you never knew it before by definition of that term. What do you even mean with slow? Computing power or a feeling?
-Updating antivirus software? How does that affect anything you do? Also you don't need any other anti virus software than windows defender. It is good now. (win 10)
-Why would you need to deal with the registry? Those cases are very rare. You can do most things with the group policies. Don't EVER "clean" you registry btw, if you meant that.
-Software removal that leave files behind is just bad software uninstaller programming. Nothing to do with windows.

Apart from the device that still work: if you have a problem with one and it's the manufacturers fault, don't you think they should do something? They apparently just ignore until they get sued. Is that not a problem for you?

As if other manufacturer acted differently....

But if Samsung/ASUS/dell have the same behaviour it is apparently fine

It is not fine! It never is! EVEN MORE SO when you pay the highest prices without getting the best hardware! Like apple. You don't pay for the hardware - that just doesn't cost as much, it's cheap. 
--------------------------------------------------

How are you guys breaking all the computers? I have laptops from ... well they run XP, that are still working flawless! I am currently writing on a 10 year old laptop because my main PC died in a fire. None of my PCs ever died without it being my fault. (You are in a corporation, I believe? Of course when things break it is no ones fault there either. "I did nothing out of the ordinary, and suddenly it won't work anymore!" Thought about that?) Of course the batteries are all dead. But at least you can change the batteries. BUT AT LEAST YOU CAN CHANGE THE BATTERIES! YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH YOUR APPLE MAC! WHY DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS? YOU CAN'T REPAIR SHIT WHEN THINGS BREAK! THIS IS REALLY BAD! HOW DO YOU STILL THINK THEY ARE SUPERIOR? AAAAAAH
It's just so stupid! I don't get why you pay those fuckers imaginary prices when you can't even change something as simple as a battery, that is with 100% certainty going to die at some time! You're stupid!
HOW DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS! HOW??!?!

[Bud]

You alright buddy?

[Distelzombie]

I'm getting frustrated. It is so simple to me. I don't understand you fanboys. Nobody was talking about user interfaces until apple guys brought that up. That's not important!
Even how often things break is not really important. If they break you can't repair them: That is important. That is what frustrates me: That you just ignore it.

"You're frustrating me!"

DANG IT STOP MAKING AN EMBEDDED PLAYER FFS AAAh forum, you're frustrating me too
I just want to link to a certain time in that video. "0m45s", doesn't work with an embedded player. Graaah! Well, then a different video it is, ok.

[Halcyon]

I'm getting frustrated. It is so simple to me. I don't understand you fanboys. Nobody was talking about user interfaces until apple guys brought that up. That's not important!
Even how often things break is not really important. If they break you can't repair them: That is important. That is what frustrates me. That you just ignore it.

Exactly the point most of us are making.

No matter how much of a turd the hardware is, you'll always get fanboys trying in vain to defend it. I don't know why.

[filssavi]

... so tired of Windows slowing down brand new powerful laptops and updating antivirus software almost every single day, dealing with Windows registry, software removal process that left tons of uninstalled pieces of software...

-How do you know those brand new computer aren't that slow in the first place? They're brand new, you never knew it before by definition of that term. What do you even mean with slow? Computing power or a feeling?
-Updating antivirus software? How does that affect anything you do? Also you don't need any other anti virus software than windows defender. It is good now. (win 10)
-Why would you need to deal with the registry? Those cases are very rare. You can do most things with the group policies. Don't EVER "clean" you registry btw, if you meant that.
-Software removal that leave files behind is just bad software uninstaller programming. Nothing to do with windows.

Apart from the device that still work: if you have a problem with one and it's the manufacturers fault, don't you think they should do something? They apparently just ignore until they get sued. Is that not a problem for you?

As if other manufacturer acted differently....

But if Samsung/ASUS/dell have the same behaviour it is apparently fine

It is not fine! It never is! EVEN MORE SO when you pay the highest prices without getting the best hardware! Like apple. You don't pay for the hardware - that just doesn't cost as much, it's cheap. 
--------------------------------------------------

How are you guys breaking all the computers? I have laptops from ... well they run XP, that are still working flawless! I am currently writing on a 10 year old laptop because my main PC died in a fire. None of my PCs ever died without it being my fault. (You are in a corporation, I believe? Of course when things break it is no ones fault there either. "I did nothing out of the ordinary, and suddenly it won't work anymore!" Thought about that?) Of course the batteries are all dead. But at least you can change the batteries. BUT AT LEAST YOU CAN CHANGE THE BATTERIES! YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH YOUR APPLE MAC! WHY DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS? YOU CAN'T REPAIR SHIT WHEN THINGS BREAK! THIS IS REALLY BAD! HOW DO YOU STILL THINK THEY ARE SUPERIOR? AAAAAAH
It's just so stupid! I don't get why you pay those fuckers imaginary prices when you can't even change something as simple as a battery, that is with 100% certainty going to die at some time! You're stupid!
HOW DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS! HOW??!?!

Let’s talk about batteries...

Is the dell XPS battery more user replaceable than a MacBook’s ? hint: no you have to open the laptop to do it, so the same as a MacBook
Is the HP zbook mobile workstation (as  HP website puts it) more user replaceable than a MacBook? No, same  as before you have to open the pc and disconnect ribbon cabled to get to the battery the complexity is on par with a MacBook
Is the alienware 13 battery replacement user friendly?  You have to remove ram, sad, WiFi module, a plethora of cables and the back shell (in this order) so no it’s much harder than on a MacBook


So what I think that your problem is not Apple but all the laptop industry, so you might want to hold on to the XP era laptops...
 
Also are you really arguing that a decent dell/hp is so cheap that if they don’t give warranty or service is fine? Because I’d like to buy such a cheap laptop...

My theory is that the biggest Apple haters are people who would like to purchase Apple but are too cheap to do so and so complain in the vain hope that Apple lowers prices (it won’t happen)

[Distelzombie]

Apple started to solder in the batteries, you know? They solder in everything today. Do you know that?

Also are you really arguing that a decent dell/hp is so cheap that if they don’t give warranty or service is fine? Because I’d like to buy such a cheap laptop...

I don't understand that sentence. What is it supposed to mean?

Is the dell XPS battery more user replaceable than...
...
So what I think that your problem is not Apple but all the laptop industry...
...
My theory is that the biggest Apple haters are people who would like to purchase Apple but are too cheap to do so and so complain in the vain hope that Apple lowers prices (it won’t happen)

All I do is to sincerely hope that people who buy that stuff wake up to the atrociousness they payed a PREMIUM for. (Emphasis on PREMIUM!) Instead they keep coming up with examples from other manufacturers, as if that would be an argument. It's fallacy to do that, btw. (Tu Quoque)
I repeat: You are paying a premium fee for nothing!
I don't want those things they produce. I want to be able to repair my stuff at least somehow. The laptop I use is also hard to maintain. But it is possible. Try that keyboard replacement Louis mentioned.

[BrianHG]

 

[bd139]

Got some numbers. 171 desktop PCs. 7% failure rate in 36 months. 90% of the failed units failed within 6 months. Failures were 40% down to one model of desktop. Rest were random. We planned for 5% failure every year so this was good after the spike of dead machines near the start.

That seems to confirm you've had a bad batch or model. Completely dead systems are rare as hen's teeth and nothing I ever encountered, other than one that was "fixed" by someone. 

While replacing approximately the same number of systems with generic HP boxes we haven't had a single failure, other than one USB port having bent pins and one screen being DOA. An equivalent number of machines a decade old and in continuous use is only approaching a 7% failure rate.

Dangerous. Failure rates suddenly increase after 5 years. You might start losing tens of them.  Then you don’t have the capex to replace. This is how not to run an IT department.

I'm getting frustrated. It is so simple to me. I don't understand you fanboys. Nobody was talking about user interfaces until apple guys brought that up. That's not important!
Even how often things break is not really important. If they break you can't repair them: That is important. That is what frustrates me. That you just ignore it.

Exactly the point most of us are making.

No matter how much of a turd the hardware is, you'll always get fanboys trying in vain to defend it. I don't know why.

But (a) you can repair them perfectly fine as I’ve done it tens of times and (b) the hardware isn’t a turd and has consistently the best support and customer satisfaction (google it).

Sure you can’t do anything other than FRU replacement sensibly but the whole argument Rossman is leveraging is board level repair which NO ONE DOES because the ROI is stupid. The guy is basically building a business on doing non cost effective repairs on machines that should be scrapped because the customer didn’t factor replacement or insurance costs into ownership. This is being leveraged by the “anti fan boy” lot to drive his viewership up.  It’s insane.

Typical example, I popped the screen on my MBP. Bought a new screen off eBay and installed it myself. Big whoopy doo. It was actually easier than doing my old X201 thinkpad because touring the cables and clipping the screen bezel on that was a nightmare. Took 20 minutes.

Left IO board gone bang (because someone poured coffee in it). £20 and 10 minutes of effort. Meh.

Honestly the amount of crap I see from plastic bodied PCs is worse. Literally no chance of repair because the chassis side of the lid hinge has snapped off etc and no chance of parts being available. That is Acer, Dell, Asus, Samsung etc.

The thing is I don’t see any obstacles to fixing Apple kit myself. No more obstacles than any other vendors. Also the parts availability is much better. How do you fix a weird low value Acer unit which had a sale window of 6 months that no one bought? Who knows what’s inside it. I’ve seen hot snot! Apple, hmm A1278 screen, eBay, sorted.

It’s about the same and most of the arguments are quite frankly stupid and not based in reality.

[Distelzombie]

Great for you. Now be a typical costumer instead. Ooops, isn't that easy anymore, is it? Dunning-Kruger-much?

[bd139]

Great for you. Now be a typical costumer instead. Ooops, isn't that easy anymore, is it? Dunning-Kruger-much?

Typical consumer goes and gets it fixed in Apple store or dodgy dave's shop down the market who gets parts off ebay. This is not rocket science.

Also this isn't the Dunning-Kruger effect because I have higher than average repair ability (check all the forum threads I have on debugging and repairs for a citation)

[Distelzombie]

You aware of the situation in which this is impossible, right? As demonstrated before.
Now remember what you pay them for this service.

[bd139]

You aware of the situation in which this is impossible, right? As demonstrated before.
Now remember what you pay them for this service.

You're talking shit. What happens is someone in a country with poor consumer laws didn't take the insurance option. That's a bad purchase decision. I bet the same people spent 10  years paying off a device with a 5 year lifespan as well. That one is on capitalism, marketing and dumbasses.

In the "no repair" above, you go to your card company and let them fight it out or make an insurance claim.

Edit: and yes I know it’s crap but you couldn’t pull this in the U.K. for example. If they deny repair then you file money claim against them and they sort it or you get the cash back via bailiff. I know this because I did it when I got screwed by toshiba in 2004.

[Distelzombie]

Well, then it appears we have no problem here, do we? Apple does its thing and it's ok: It's explained by poor consumer laws of the country you live in, capitalism, marketing... Apple is of no fault for abusing the poor consumer laws or capitalism. It's the politicians and the society that is wrong.

Also this isn't the Dunning-Kruger effect because I have higher than average repair ability (check all the forum threads I have on debugging and repairs for a citation)

It is, I think. You are overestimating the abilities of the general public when you say: "It is repairable, it's fine. Took 20 minutes." Yet they can't even change a hard disk sometimes - when it is actually easy to do so. ("What's a hard disk/SSD?")

Let's get back to the soldered in SSDs: What do you do when they are worn out? What if you want more space INSIDE your mactop? "You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification.

[Halcyon]

Let's get back to the soldered in SSDs: What do you do when they are worn out? What if you want more space INSIDE your mactop? "You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification.

Thankfully, by the time the SSD has worn out, the rest of the Macbook would have well and truly had it.

[bd139]

Well, then it appears we have no problem here, do we? Apple does its thing and it's ok: It's explained by poor consumer laws of the country you live in, capitalism, marketing... Apple is of no fault for abusing the poor consumer laws or capitalism. It's the politicians and the society that is wrong.

Also this isn't the Dunning-Kruger effect because I have higher than average repair ability (check all the forum threads I have on debugging and repairs for a citation)

It is, I think. You are overestimating the abilities of the general public when you say: "It is repairable, it's fine. Took 20 minutes." Yet they can't even change a hard disk sometimes - when it is actually easy to do so. ("What's a hard disk/SSD?")

Let's get back to the soldered in SSDs: What do you do when they are worn out? What if you want more space INSIDE your mactop? "You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification.

No it's not right but that doesn't mean it isn't the status quo and is specific to Apple. The problem is that as performance increases, by necessity so does integration and the march of technology. Back in the early 1970s, computers were built out of discrete logic ICs. Then came the microprocessor etc. Things got faster and smaller and with closer integration.  Now we have basically minimal SoC with flash attached screwed into a cast or injection moulded chassis with a battery glued in (which is incidentally required because the technology to supply the power density needed is volatile if bent) and a laminated screen. That leaves these FRUs: screen, chassis, battery/power supply, input device. Everything is built like this now from everyone because:

1. It's cost effective.
2. It allows greatest manufacturing automation.
3. It allows the form factors that are in demand.

Really at the current time it isn't worth paying someone who can repair an FRU to deal with it because they're more expensive over time than the FRU's supply cost is. So we're in a FRU swapping business now and have been for at least 20 years now.

As for the soldered in SSDs, have you ever seen an SSD fail from wearing out? We have about 500 of them, some of which are in ridiculously high IOPS servers writing 100's of gigs a day all from Intel and Samsung and ZERO failures ever. You're hanging on to an old way of thinking there I'm afraid. They are crazy reliable. Also the SSD's in the thing are PCI attached jobbies which have quite frankly insane IO speeds.

The only risk really is buying a machine without the capacity to expand to your requirements. That can go good and bad. If you don't buy enough you're screwed and if you buy too much you're down cash. I bought a 16Gb 1TiB SSD MBP in 2013 (which is incidentally still going find and holds 5 hours charge, has enough RAM and disk space).  ... I expected 2 years out of it and then upgrade. Didn't happen.

The main problem is that you have to do some forward thinking and not cheap out. There is no way I'm ever going to need to upgrade the above. If it gives up i'll split it for parts and someone can repair theirs. Ultimately over 5 years it worked out a crap load cheaper than I was expecting. Good job 

People seem to think the only cost of ownership is the outlay though. That's a big problem. Bought a nice shiny BMW on £300/month? Oh no can't afford to run it. Doh, clearly BMW's fault...

Let's get back to the soldered in SSDs: What do you do when they are worn out? What if you want more space INSIDE your mactop? "You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification.

Thankfully, by the time the SSD has worn out, the rest of the Macbook would have well and truly had it.

Yes. That's true! 

[wraper]

Let's get back to the soldered in SSDs: What do you do when they are worn out? What if you want more space INSIDE your mactop? "You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification.

Thankfully, by the time the SSD has worn out, the rest of the Macbook would have well and truly had it.

SSDs have enough write endurance to survive any normal workload for decades. When they fail, it's due to other reasons. However motherboard fault in macbooks is a very common failure and once you cannot boot, you cannot get your data out. And if SSD fails, you need to replace a whole motherboard. Modern M.2 SSDs are small enough that soldering SSD on motherboard is ridiculous.

[wraper]

Because the SSD and all of the other major system components are soldered to the logic board, and because the Touch Bar is so difficult to remove and replace, the Touch Bar MacBook Pro gets a 1 out of 10 on iFixit's repairability scale, lower than the 2 out of 10 it gave to the $1,499 model. Its glued-in battery and difficult-to-replace display don't help. And as in iDevices, the Touch ID button and the T1 are paired at the factory, so if you replace the button itself or the logic board yourself, the Touch ID sensor will stop working.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/11/touch-bar-mbp-teardown-soldered-ssd-cosmetic-speaker-holes-and-more/

[bd139]

Touch bar is shit, I'll give you that.

[Halcyon]

At the end of the day, this thread can go on forever and when Apple inevitably bugger up again, it'll just start over.

I will say this about the Apple fanboys and I specifically mean those who are so brand loyal to the point it makes them blind and deaf. There seems to be this attitude of "I have a Macbook and it's never ever crashed on me and it's perfect and has never had a fault" and so on it goes. To those users I say "good for you". But they are quick to block their ears and go "la-la-la" when Apple produces a poorly designed unit with widespread problems.

No one here is advocating that all Apple products of a certain model will experience the same fault, not even the haters. That would be stupid. I could go out and buy an iPhone 6 tomorrow off ebay and it might never ever have a problem, but the stats are stacked against me.

Set aside the dumb design decisions, the poorly built/put together hardware, their crappy software updates or even the way they treat their customers... what I don't understand is this strong hold Apple have of some of their customers. It's something you seldom see among PC/Android users (and there are many more of them than Apple users).

I've been a PC guy for as long as there have been PCs, but I have used Apple products throughout the years, almost all of them. I've come across some pretty shitty PC's as well, but you know what? I don't keep buying them. I do my homework and pick another brand. I gave up buying brand-name desktop PCs back in primary school, when I learnt to build my own. But as for laptops, tablets and phones, if I come across a brand I don't trust or who produce poor quality products, I don't buy them, even if I've bought them before. I honestly don't care. Right now I have a Dell laptop (and I love Dell), but it has some interesting quirks. My next laptop will probably be a Lenovo. See how that works?

Same goes for my phone, I've owned Sony, LG, Samsung, Blackberry and Motorola smart phones before. There are some I won't buy again.

When it comes time to make a purchase, I buy what's good at the time. I buy from a company who has a track record of reliability and when issues do arise, they fix them, not blame the customer for holding it the wrong way or something equally dumb. Those companies who stand up and can admit when they fucked up get my money, not because their marketing tells me.

For those reasons I've mentioned here are the reasons why I'm yet to spend money on an Apple product. Who knows what will happen in 5-10 years, never say never.

[Distelzombie]

Well, then it appears we have no problem here, do we? Apple does its thing and it's ok: It's explained by poor consumer laws of the country you live in, capitalism, marketing... Apple is of no fault for abusing the poor consumer laws or capitalism. It's the politicians and the society that is wrong.

Also this isn't the Dunning-Kruger effect because I have higher than average repair ability (check all the forum threads I have on debugging and repairs for a citation)

It is, I think. You are overestimating the abilities of the general public when you say: "It is repairable, it's fine. Took 20 minutes." Yet they can't even change a hard disk sometimes - when it is actually easy to do so. ("What's a hard disk/SSD?")

Let's get back to the soldered in SSDs: What do you do when they are worn out? What if you want more space INSIDE your mactop? "You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification.

No it's not right but that doesn't mean it isn't the status quo and is specific to Apple. The problem is that as performance increases, by necessity so does integration and the march of technology. Back in the early 1970s, computers were built out of discrete logic ICs. Then came the microprocessor etc. Things got faster and smaller and with closer integration.  Now we have basically minimal SoC with flash attached screwed into a cast or injection moulded chassis with a battery glued in (which is incidentally required because the technology to supply the power density needed is volatile if bent) and a laminated screen. That leaves these FRUs: screen, chassis, battery/power supply, input device. Everything is built like this now from everyone because:

1. It's cost effective.
2. It allows greatest manufacturing automation.
3. It allows the form factors that are in demand.

Really at the current time it isn't worth paying someone who can repair an FRU to deal with it because they're more expensive over time than the FRU's supply cost is. So we're in a FRU swapping business now and have been for at least 20 years now.

As for the soldered in SSDs, have you ever seen an SSD fail from wearing out? We have about 500 of them, some of which are in ridiculously high IOPS servers writing 100's of gigs a day all from Intel and Samsung and ZERO failures ever. You're hanging on to an old way of thinking there I'm afraid. They are crazy reliable. Also the SSD's in the thing are PCI attached jobbies which have quite frankly insane IO speeds.

The only risk really is buying a machine without the capacity to expand to your requirements. That can go good and bad. If you don't buy enough you're screwed and if you buy too much you're down cash. I bought a 16Gb 1TiB SSD MBP in 2013 (which is incidentally still going find and holds 5 hours charge, has enough RAM and disk space).  ... I expected 2 years out of it and then upgrade. Didn't happen.

The main problem is that you have to do some forward thinking and not cheap out. There is no way I'm ever going to need to upgrade the above. If it gives up i'll split it for parts and someone can repair theirs. Ultimately over 5 years it worked out a crap load cheaper than I was expecting. Good job 

People seem to think the only cost of ownership is the outlay though. That's a big problem. Bought a nice shiny BMW on £300/month? Oh no can't afford to run it. Doh, clearly BMW's fault...

Let's deconstruct this:
"No it's not right but that doesn't mean it isn't the status quo and is specific to Apple."
Nobody said that! It's your imagination! It is as I AM SAYING IN LIKE EVERY RESPONSE LATELY: That you are paying comparatively extreme prices for Apples products, that aren't even better than the rest.

"The problem is that as performance increases, by necessity so does integration and the march of technology. ... Now we have basically minimal SoC with flash attached screwed into a cast or injection moulded chassis with a battery glued in (which is incidentally required because the technology to supply the power density needed is volatile if bent) and a laminated screen."
No. Nothing you stated is required by our technological state! They're just design choices you're talking about. E.g. Desktop PCs! You don't need to glue in batteries, you can make them easily detachable. Absolutely no problem. Same with everything else.
Nobody does this anymore because it takes engineering time, extra material and what not to create a mechanism that holds the battery in place or makes anything easily changeable.
They think: "No consumer cares anyway, so why waste money?" <- That is where we are now!

"1. It's cost effective."
Yes. But, I am telling you over and over that you pay comparatively extreme prices for Apples products. I do not have to tell where this money goes because you seem to know that it doesn't go into manufacturing. Good, and bad.

"2. It allows greatest manufacturing automation." *savings
It's all about saving money in the process, nothing else. And again: you pay comparatively extreme prices for Apples products.

"3. It allows the form factors that are in demand." *imagined
There is no real demand for these form factors: The demand for any form factor is imagined by the marketing division.

"Really at the current time it isn't worth paying someone who can repair an FRU to deal with it because they're more expensive over time than the FRU's supply cost is."
You DO realize that is the conclusion of all these issues we have here? -When the money doesn't go into production and engineering quality, but instead into the pockets of the big guys, yes?
 
"The only risk really is buying a machine without the capacity to expand to your requirements..."
... together with: "The main problem is that you have to do some forward thinking and not cheap out."
Are you doing what I was asking you not to do? Mainly: ["You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification] for bad engineering.

SSDs ... They are crazy reliable.

Thankfully, by the time the SSD has worn out, the rest of the Macbook would have well and truly had it.

SSDs have enough write endurance to survive any normal workload for decades. When they fail, it's due to other reasons. However motherboard fault in macbooks is a very common failure and once you cannot boot, you cannot get your data out. And if SSD fails, you need to replace a whole motherboard. Modern M.2 SSDs are small enough that soldering SSD on motherboard is ridiculous.

Ok, I was wrong. I thought that could happen earlier.
Yet, that was my point: What if anything fails when everything is soldered together? FRU? Too costly in this case.

At the end of the day, this thread can go on forever and when Apple inevitably bugger up again, it'll just start over.

I will say this about the Apple fanboys and I specifically mean those who are so brand loyal to the point it makes them blind and deaf. There seems to be this attitude of "I have a Macbook and it's never ever crashed on me and it's perfect and has never had a fault" and so on it goes. To those users I say "good for you". But they are quick to block their ears and go "la-la-la" when Apple produces a poorly designed unit with widespread problems.

No one here is advocating that all Apple products of a certain model will experience the same fault, not even the haters. That would be stupid. I could go out and buy an iPhone 6 tomorrow off ebay and it might never ever have a problem, but the stats are stacked against me.

Set aside the dumb design decisions, the poorly built/put together hardware, their crappy software updates or even the way they treat their customers... what I don't understand is this strong hold Apple have of some of their customers. It's something you seldom see among PC/Android users (and there are many more of them than Apple users).

I've been a PC guy for as long as there have been PCs, but I have used Apple products throughout the years, almost all of them. I've come across some pretty shitty PC's as well, but you know what? I don't keep buying them. I do my homework and pick another brand. I gave up buying brand-name desktop PCs back in primary school, when I learnt to build my own. But as for laptops, tablets and phones, if I come across a brand I don't trust or who produce poor quality products, I don't buy them, even if I've bought them before. I honestly don't care. Right now I have a Dell laptop (and I love Dell), but it has some interesting quirks. My next laptop will probably be a Lenovo. See how that works?

Same goes for my phone, I've owned Sony, LG, Samsung, Blackberry and Motorola smart phones before. There are some I won't buy again.

When it comes time to make a purchase, I buy what's good at the time. I buy from a company who has a track record of reliability and when issues do arise, they fix them, not blame the customer for holding it the wrong way or something equally dumb. Those companies who stand up and can admit when they fucked up get my money, not because their marketing tells me.

For those reasons I've mentioned here are the reasons why I'm yet to spend money on an Apple product. Who knows what will happen in 5-10 years, never say never.

Aaah, a view of sunshine! I was lost in the mist. (That's funny because "mist" is also a german word for crap, rubbish, bullshit ...)
As I love to point out logic fallacies or cognitive biases lately, (In this case the Apple-guys fallcies) here we go:

"There seems to be this attitude of "I have a Macbook and it's never ever crashed on me and it's perfect and has never had a fault" and so on it goes. "
Optimism bias or Normalcy bias

"But they are quick to block their ears and go "la-la-la" when Apple produces a poorly designed unit with widespread problems."
Confirmation bias, probably Appeal to novelty evolving into Appeal to tradition

"When it comes time to make a purchase, I buy what's good at the time. I buy from a company who has a track record of reliability and when issues do arise, they fix them, not blame the customer for holding it the wrong way or something equally dumb."
Called "perfect reasoning"

[MT]

[rsjsouza]

Distelzombie and Halcyon got a lot right. In these discussions I usually see a cognitive dissonance between the defenders of business practices and design choices of the preferred brand (Apple in this case) and the criticisms to the "others" (Microsoft, Samsung and others).

Despite the complaints from users that couldn't repair their products back in the 1980's, the miniaturization evolved so much that manufacturers did this in the name of innovation (Dave's non-repairable credit card sized calculator is an example).
A similar thing used to happen with cellphones and smartphones in their early days: the integration was so massive that repairability suffered - although at that time the advanced techniques and equipment were still very far from Joe garage's repair shop. Nowadays, where these are much more widely available and the innovation gap is become narrower and narrower, it is quite frustrating to see companies such as Apple trying to stonewall a customer's right to repair his product anywhere he wants (Apple official stores and repair shops do not exist everywhere where they sell their products).

The innovation can sometimes create captive markets that are abused by shady business practices. One example is the preposterous association between Microsoft and Intel in the 1990s, which secured a massive market à guise of innovation - although at that time there were  massive investments in semiconductor manufacturing processes which brought this market to a plateau in the late 2000s. Apple tends to do the same with their products: they created a significant captive market with high investments in usability and design but now give their loyal users no choice other than gobble up their design and business decisions - and the innovation gap is not there anymore, both in mobile and laptops.

It is inexplicable why, in the current day and age of laptops, Apple decides to almost completely pot their flagship product - that is quite frustrating given the reasons shown by distelzombie: the innovation factor is almost non-existent to justify this, given they use bog standard computer parts. Other manufacturers that feature similar mechanical and performance features do not resort to such measures.

Also, the strawman argument that Apple is put to higher standards thus they receive so much extra attention: Samsung did not have it easy when they released the S6 with its inability to add memory or replace battery. Or the S7 Note and its exploding batteries. LG had a hard time trying to justify their modular phone G5. In all these cases, customers simply moved away from the brand as they have a choice of other brands with similar interface. Even Microsoft and their Windows Phone incarnations had more than one brand using it.

[Distelzombie]

Let's reality-check Apples pricing for once:

Building a Hackintosh is getting easier and easier.
https://hackintosh.com/

Here's how you make your Lenovo Y50 or Y70 Touch a hackintosh:
https://www.tonymacx86.com/threads/guide-lenovo-y50-uhd-or-1080p-using-clover-uefi.232960/

Here's how easy it is to change the battery, for example:
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+Y50-70+Touch+Battery+Replacement/36853

Here's a comparison between Apple Macbook Pros (I guess not the top of the line) and those Lenovos:
https://www.gadgetsnow.com/compare-laptops/Apple-MacBook-Pro-MLW72HNA-Laptop-vs-Lenovo-Y50-70-vs-Lenovo-Ideapad-Y700-80NV0028US-Laptop-Core-i7-6th-Gen16-GB1-TBWindows-104-GB-vs-Apple-MacBook-Pro-MJLT2HNA-Laptop
I can't find a direct comparison between the Lenovo and MPTT2LL/A.
Let's compare both manually:
Apple: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-15-2017-2-9-GHz-560.248070.0.html
In this configuration: new today - € 2.830,00

Lenovo: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Y50-70-GTX-960M-4K-Notebook-Review.145340.0.html
In this configuration: new 2015 - € 1.499,00 (Let's just say half) new today - $ 1.325 or € 1.094,52. (Let's just say two fifth)

Benchmarks
Cinebench R15 CPU Single 64Bit
160 Points (First is always apple)
135 Points (Second is always Lenovo)
Cinebench R15 CPU Multi 64Bit
630 Points
517 Points
PCMark 8 - Home Score Accelerated v2
3819 (min: 3816, max: 3827) Points
2554 Points
3DMark 11 - 1280x720 Performance
5718 (min: 5700, max: 6839) Points
5444 Points
3DMark 1920x1080 Fire Strike Score
3576 (min: 3566, max: 3578) Points
3907 Points
3DMark 1280x720 Cloud Gate Standard Score
15047 (min: 15036, max: 16015) Points
13326 Points

Very similiar already. But:
Be aware that the Lenovo has deactivates CPU Turbo in multi-thread applications due to thermals. If you improve the cooling (Like, with liquid metal thermal paste) you can activate it with Throttlestop. That would bring a huge boost to those numbers up there - and probably make it beat the Macbook.
Macbook also thermo- and power-throttles. You can mitigate the thermo-throttling, but not power-throttling.
Also the Radeon Pro 555 version of the apple Macbook right off the bat worse in GPU scores, while still costing double of the lenovo.

But what about the downsides of using a Hackintosh instead of building one? Just read this from MacWorld website about Hackintoshs downsides: https://www.macworld.com/article/3201034/macs/hackintosh-should-you-build-one.html
They could only come up with one actual downside. The rest ist just: "I need to come up with something, arg"- squeezing the fingers. If you know what I mean. Just postpone the update until find out if it is working, or if not, until you find a fix.


Conclusion: You could get the same Software (Mac OS or whatever), better or actual maintainability, potentially the same Speed, interchangeable double-sized SSD, half battery life, half as good screen - but 4k for two fifth of the price.
If even MacWorld couldn't come up with more than one good reason not to build a Hackintosh, you are making an idiot out of yourself for paying their prices!
*EVEN BIGGER SENTENCE*

[BradC]

If even MacWorld couldn't come up with more than one good reason not to build a Hackintosh, you are making an idiot out of yourself for paying their prices![/size][/b]

Legality.

[Mr. Scram]

Dangerous. Failure rates suddenly increase after 5 years. You might start losing tens of them.  Then you don’t have the capex to replace. This is how not to run an IT department.

Exactly the point most of us are making.


But (a) you can repair them perfectly fine as I’ve done it tens of times and (b) the hardware isn’t a turd and has consistently the best support and customer satisfaction (google it).

Sure you can’t do anything other than FRU replacement sensibly but the whole argument Rossman is leveraging is board level repair which NO ONE DOES because the ROI is stupid. The guy is basically building a business on doing non cost effective repairs on machines that should be scrapped because the customer didn’t factor replacement or insurance costs into ownership. This is being leveraged by the “anti fan boy” lot to drive his viewership up.  It’s insane.

Typical example, I popped the screen on my MBP. Bought a new screen off eBay and installed it myself. Big whoopy doo. It was actually easier than doing my old X201 thinkpad because touring the cables and clipping the screen bezel on that was a nightmare. Took 20 minutes.

Left IO board gone bang (because someone poured coffee in it). £20 and 10 minutes of effort. Meh.

Honestly the amount of crap I see from plastic bodied PCs is worse. Literally no chance of repair because the chassis side of the lid hinge has snapped off etc and no chance of parts being available. That is Acer, Dell, Asus, Samsung etc.

The thing is I don’t see any obstacles to fixing Apple kit myself. No more obstacles than any other vendors. Also the parts availability is much better. How do you fix a weird low value Acer unit which had a sale window of 6 months that no one bought? Who knows what’s inside it. I’ve seen hot snot! Apple, hmm A1278 screen, eBay, sorted.

It’s about the same and most of the arguments are quite frankly stupid and not based in reality.

We know about bathtub curves too. Accounted for and taken care of.

[glarsson]

Conclusion: You could get the same Software (Mac OS or whatever), better or actual maintainability, potentially the same Speed, interchangeable double-sized SSD, half battery life, half as good screen - but 4k for two fifth of the price.

You can only do it by stealing Mac OS. If theft is acceptable then you can get a lot of things cheap.

[BrianHG]

Conclusion: You could get the same Software (Mac OS or whatever), better or actual maintainability, potentially the same Speed, interchangeable double-sized SSD, half battery life, half as good screen - but 4k for two fifth of the price.

You can only do it by stealing Mac OS. If theft is acceptable then you can get a lot of things cheap.

Legality wise, what constitutes a legal copy of Mac OS.  I mean, what if you bought a 3 year old bottom end mac, legally updated it's OS, ripped out the HD & put it in a modern compatible PC frame.  Toss the old Mac in the garbage.  No theft of OS.  Just updated the video drivers from Nvidia's website and it worked.  Is this theft of the OS?

[glarsson]

Is this theft of the OS?

Yes. Paragraph 2 of the license says:

This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time.

[BradC]

Is this theft of the OS?

It is contrary to the terms and conditions in the license agreement, so it is certainly in breach of Apples copyright.
Remember, to run OSX on a Non-Apple computer you must be "illegally" copying the key-string that resides in the SMC on each Apple machine.

[BrianHG]

Is this theft of the OS?

Yes. Paragraph 2 of the license says:

This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time.

OK, I take the apple label, with serial number and Apple logo from the MAC and place it on the PC.  It is now an Apple-labeled computer with proof of serial number.  I also remove that key-string IC and place it in the PC.  Not a copy, but, the original.

[Halcyon]

Is this theft of the OS?

It is contrary to the terms and conditions in the license agreement, so it is certainly in breach of Apples copyright.

Don't forget, EULAs and completely different from Copyright Law. Just because you breach a licensing agreement, doesn't necessarily mean your breaching the Copyright Act or any other law for that matter. There have been many cases where EULAs have been deemed to be "unfair" and invalid. EULA's aren't worth anything until a court says they are, most of them are untested.

[glarsson]

It doesn't matter if the license is fair or not. The problem us comparing the cost of product A and product B and arguing that A is too expensive because you can build product B cheaply by stealing parts from A.

[NiHaoMike]

It doesn't matter if the license is fair or not. The problem us comparing the cost of product A and product B and arguing that A is too expensive because you can build product B cheaply by stealing parts from A.

What about buying an old Mac for cheap (doesn't even have to work) and "upgrading" it using PC parts?

[Halcyon]

It doesn't matter if the license is fair or not. The problem us comparing the cost of product A and product B and arguing that A is too expensive because you can build product B cheaply by stealing parts from A.

As far as I'm concerned, if I bought a product, it's mine to do anything I want with in my own home. No one will convince me otherwise.

[filssavi]

So finally we uncovered the true objection to apple products, they are expensive

To that I say

First it's my hard earned money  and I spend them as I damn well see fit, you have no say about it

Second:
     do you own a watch more expensive than a 25$ CASIO? because if you do so are a [insert whatever insult you use with apple customers here], the casio works just fine and it's cheaper
     do you own designer clothes? because if do so you are a [insert whatever insult you use with apple customers here], no name brand clothes works just fine and they are cheaper
     do you own an expensive car? because if you do so are a [insert whatever insult you use with apple customers here], a cheap city car works just fine and it's cheaper
     do you eat at expensive resturants?  because if you do so are a [insert whatever insult you use with apple customers here], a home cooked meal feeds just as much and it's much cheaper
     do you smoke?

and so on, bottom line there are countless  things you might like to spend money on that I find stupid, but since what you like doing is none of my business I just don't lecture you on how stubid, dumb, etc you are....

[glarsson]

As far as I'm concerned, if I bought a product, it's mine to do anything I want with in my own home. No one will convince me otherwise.

Modifying a licensed radio transmitter?
Changing a semi automatic rifle into a fully automatic rifle?

Still doesn't matter as we are comparing the cost of two products.

[bd139]

A point people forget about the baseline cost of a Mac is you’re paying for the 100% non advertising subsidised iCloud (groupware, ignore the file storage), support, apps that come with it and the fact that the OS isn’t graded into “what version can you afford?” Structures.

These are all paid extras on Windows. Windows 10 pro upgrade +3 years of office 365 has to be factored into the price now. The built in stuff in windows 10 just doesn’t work properly either.

[BrianHG]

So finally we uncovered the true objection to apple products, they are expensive

To that I say

First it's my hard earned money  and I spend them as I damn well see fit, you have no say about it

This is not the sediment of everyone here, just what has echoed over the previous 2 pages of this thread.

I started this thread to decide, asking, if choosing Apple Macs for my business I was setting up would be a wise decision over the next 10 years.  Differences in price of hardware is actually minor compared to the salary of my 75+ employees if Apple trends further their activities of their Mac if even a % of my workforce ends up sitting and twiddling their thumbs for a day, or, worse, if the product line I become reliant on 9 years from now is no longer made.

[bd139]

That's not a function of the choice of technology but your BCP / DR strategy.

[BrianHG]

Modifying a licensed radio transmitter?

Broadcasting is controlled under federal communications act.  Radio waves leave your home & for example, we don't want to endanger lives by blanking out important broadcasts like interfering with aviation navigation.

Changing a semi automatic rifle into a fully automatic rifle?

Creating and using human assault weapons of war are also under federal restrictive controls.

[BrianHG]

That's not a function of the choice of technology but your BCP / DR strategy.

Business continuity planning for my business based on Apple changing their technology once again, like CPU & OS for a new CPU at some time soon, maybe, means I must program my specific editing tools with that in mind.  So, yes, disaster recovery, which is guaranteed to happen to at least a % of hardware over 10 years means I will be making a choice on technology, and it wont be Macs.

[Halcyon]

As far as I'm concerned, if I bought a product, it's mine to do anything I want with in my own home. No one will convince me otherwise.

Modifying a licensed radio transmitter?
Changing a semi automatic rifle into a fully automatic rifle?

Still doesn't matter as we are comparing the cost of two products.

Completely irrelevant. Let me spell it out in greater detail for those that didn't get it:

If I buy a consumer product, software, music, movies etc... as far as I'm concerned it's mine to do anything I want with, in my own home, provided it has no impact on others.

For computer hardware, that means modifying it in any way I want.
For software, it's using them on whatever computer I choose, for as long as I choose to, or making backup copies for myself.
For music, to make copies into any format I like so I can listen to it where ever and whenever I like...
... and so on...

It doesn't matter if I didn't create it or hold the copyright for it, I purchased it, I own it. The terms and manner in which I choose to use it are entirely mine. I don't care if you don't agree, it won't stop me from doing what I want with my possessions.

[glarsson]

This is your own fake reality. In the real world you don't own everything you "buy". You can't, as an example, show a movie to paying customers even if you do it in your own home. Also, you can't install a transmitter and broadcast the music you "bought".

[Mr. Scram]

This is your own fake reality. In the real world you don't own everything you "buy". You can't, as an example, show a movie to paying customers even if you do it in your own home. Also, you can't install a transmitter and broadcast the music you "bought".

Both examples involve a third party. Halcyon's example doesn't appear to do the same.

[glarsson]

You don't own the music, the film or the software (Mac OS). You only bought a license to use them – with conditions and limitations.

[Halcyon]

You don't own the music, the film or the software (Mac OS). You only bought a license to use them – with conditions and limitations.

I couldn't care less.

This is your own fake reality. In the real world you don't own everything you "buy". You can't, as an example, show a movie to paying customers even if you do it in your own home. Also, you can't install a transmitter and broadcast the music you "bought".

Both examples involve a third party. Halcyon's example doesn't appear to do the same.

Correct Mr. Scram.

Glarsson, you'll also notice in all my examples, I don't involve anyone else, I used the words "my" and "I" and I specifically said provided it has no impact on others. Publicly screening a film in my own home is impacting others.

If you want to read, agree and self-enforce every EULA, then be my guest. I don't bother. What I've described is far from a fake reality. It's the reality I live every single day and I haven't broken any Australian laws yet. It's what a reasonable consumer would consider reasonable private use.

[glarsson]

You involve the owner of the software.

[tooki]

Well, predictably this thread has gone down the shitter.

It amazes me how vitriolic Apple haters are, flatly incapable of even attempting to understand the true reasons why people buy the products. So they resort to dismissiveness and insults. They can’t wrap their heads around the fact that not everyone weights each purchase criterion the same way they do.

I’ll be the first to say that the Mac world used to be that vitriolic towards the PC world, but honestly that’s changed a lot.

What’s stupid about all of it is that most of the people (regardless of allegiance) who are highly vitriolic are deeply unknowledgeable about the product/brand/platform they are criticizing. The Apple haters don’t know the Apple world properly. The Android haters don’t know it, either. The Windows haters haven’t used it since 1998. Etc etc etc.

And so rational discussion is almost impossible.

[mbless]

Well, predictably this thread has gone down the shitter.

It amazes me how vitriolic Apple haters are, flatly incapable of even attempting to understand the true reasons why people buy the products. So they resort to dismissiveness and insults. They can’t wrap their heads around the fact that not everyone weights each purchase criterion the same way they do.

I’ll be the first to say that the Mac world used to be that vitriolic towards the PC world, but honestly that’s changed a lot.

What’s stupid about all of it is that most of the people (regardless of allegiance) who are highly vitriolic are deeply unknowledgeable about the product/brand/platform they are criticizing. The Apple haters don’t know the Apple world properly. The Android haters don’t know it, either. The Windows haters haven’t used it since 1998. Etc etc etc.

And so rational discussion is almost impossible.

Thank you, one of the very few levelheaded comments in this 9 page thread. If only the extreme Apple haters and fanboys were so passionate about something that was beneficial to society instead of insulting each other's choice of personal electronics...

[Richard Crowley]

Just to demonstrate that he is an unbiased, equal-opportunity critic and whistleblower, Louis Rossman posts this...

https://youtu.be/FaoJErxYLtM

[Distelzombie]

The fact that you are calling us "haters" shows that your emotions are involved in making decisions about buying products or manufacturer choice. (You = No one specific, because everyone who buys apple seems to do that.) You then go at us because we don't show the same emotions and have a comprehensive reason for that.
You are treating apple products like extensions of yourself because of your emotional involvement. And we hater attack your Self when we say that these products suck balls and apple is pure greed. I wonder: Are Apple products using some kind of mind-control? Fast flashy colors somewhere, maybe? This statement actually points in that direction: "The Apple haters don’t know the Apple world properly." ("Just look at the screen and everything will make sense!" ... "Yeah, just look at it. Just once." ... "You'll feel better!" ... "Do it." ... "Guys! You are freaking me out! GET YOUR HAND OFF ME! HELP")


Anyway, blueskull said on the first page:

Many people hate Apple not because Apple products suck, but because of the creed and greed to money.

This is great. But I also think the products suck. (By choice of CPU, GPU, SSD, etc. etc. in relation to price. So, circular-sucking.)


BTW: I do admit that my argumentation drifted into "It's just the price". But I always had the videos from Louis in the back of my head and thought you did the same. But you already forgot they exist, right?

Those are objective, btw. They are an accumulation of facts. Apple-worshipper seem to ignore all the bad stuff and focus on the good. (Yes, I can also involve emotions.)

[Distelzombie]

He clarified some point he made in that video, one post up:

[bd139]

I see a lot of meta concerns. ROI is better for me. Orders of magnitude better.

Even if I had to throw a Mac in the bin every 3 months that is. 

I got fed up of trying to get to the moon by lighting my own farts years ago (windows)

[rsjsouza]

Just to demonstrate that he is an unbiased, equal-opportunity critic and whistleblower, Louis Rossman posts this...

Excellent video! I echo the same criticism I did to Apple a few posts ago to Microsoft.

If one ever calls me a "hater", so be it: a hater of half-baked excuses for bad business practices and screwed up design choices. 

[Mr. Scram]

I see a lot of meta concerns. ROI is better for me. Orders of magnitude better.

Even if I had to throw a Mac in the bin every 3 months that is. 

I got fed up of trying to get to the moon by lighting my own farts years ago (windows)

I have some trouble believing someone with your capabilities has significantly more or less trouble with one OS or specific hardware. It all boils down to the same thing anyway. If one was really substantially better, we'd have a well defined winner years ago. The fact that differences are minor and personal is what allows these discussions to happen.

[bd139]

You’d be wrong. And it’s not because I’m holding it wrong. I think a lot of people are used to being boiled like a frog.

This week and I was supposed to get one thing sorted to do with EV cert validation and signing sorted...

1. Visual studio update problems - hanging   
2. MS account sign in packed in.
3. Visual studio wouldn’t sign in to sub
4. TrustedInstaller went batshit.
5. Forced update reboot.
6. Start menu stopped working with keyboard suddenly forcing a reboot
7. Windows defender keeps interrupting me to say it found nothing wrong
8. Multiple visual studio crashes
9. Several hours working out which fucked up windows SDK will let me sign an MSI from an EV cert.
10. Two hours arguing with MSFT partner support over a problem with SCVMM
11. My desktop hung at 6% applying updates.
12. I can’t print from windows to my wireless printer (but can from everything else and this was working last week fine)

This a weird combination of Terry Gilliam’s Brazil and the fucked up arbitrary rules of Harry Potter.

I just haven’t got time for any of that shit because it delivers no value to my business and sucks my finite life away for no reason. You can go days and weeks without any such problems on OSX/Linux. I can’t recall the last problem I had if I’m honest.

Don’t underestimate the ability for the vast ignorant majority of the population to be perfectly content with gobbling up bowls of their own shit every day because they don’t strive for better things. That transcends IT that one too.

Edit: remembered the last unixy problem I had. Bug in python requests module. Solved with pip update. Fully documented online. Found the bug in 30 seconds and the resolution.

[Mr. Scram]

I've seen all the same shenanigans happening with Apple stuff. It taking over 2,5 hours to register an Apple ID, marbles of doom, Safari crapping out, updates going wonky and excruciating weird stuff. All the stuff that shouldn't happen but does, regularly.

Yet I won't pretend Apple is crap for it. It works well for a lot of people. Windows works well for plenty of people. Linux has a loyal following. Android, iOS. Same, same. They're all far from perfect, but that's the name of the game. If you know what you're doing it's basically the same thing. You just pick your poison.

[Distelzombie]

I've seen all the same shenanigans happening with Apple stuff. It taking over 2,5 hours to register an Apple ID, marbles of doom, Safari crapping out, updates going wonky and excruciating weird stuff. All the stuff that shouldn't happen but does, regularly.

Yet I won't pretend Apple is crap for it. It works well for a lot of people. Windows works well for plenty of people. Linux has a loyal following. Android, iOS. Same, same. They're all far from perfect, but that's the name of the game. If you know what you're doing it's basically the same thing. You just pick your poison.

That lists doesn't include any of the "shenanigans" we are talking about here. Glad to see it's all working fine for you.
Nobody "pretends" apple is crap. We got proof.
And Windows is crap too, btw. Horrible support: mainly exists made by the users themselves. Always one problem after another, and that for non reason. But still better than Linux where you need to remember commands to do anything. I actually have no problems with Android.

bd139: "5. Forced update reboot."
Do you want to know how to set windows update to manual, even in windows 10?

[Halcyon]

bd139 and tooki, I usually enjoy your posts, not because I necessarily agree with everything you say, but in the manner in which you say it. But I think you've both missed the point a bit.

Tooki: I hate Apple for a number of reasons and it's not "just because" it's Apple. I couldn't give a crap what the brand is. If Dell or HP pulled the same crap, I'd be saying the same thing about them. Just because I'm not an Apple customer, doesn't mean I know nothing about their products. Like a lot of people here, I'm objective when it comes to making a decision which inevitably involves sinking thousands of dollars of my hard-earned money. I've worked in various facets of the IT industry for almost 20 years, everything from a technician putting together computers and providing help desk support when I was younger, all the way through to network engineering, information security and alike. I think I know much more about Apple, PC, Android... etc... products than the average "power user". As I said in another post if Apple were to change the way they thought about their customers, designed their hardware and provided support, I would happily buy one of their machines.

In addition, I still haven't heard any decent rebuttals to all the hardware issues that plague a number of Apple products, their lack of after-sales support or any of the other points raised by so-called "haters". All we seem to see in return is "my Apple device has been perfect [therefore they all must be and the problems don't exist]". Think about it, if you favourite car had all the same issues, you'd be pretty pissed off and you'd be down to the dealer pretty quickly for a "please explain".

bd139: I completely agree with you. Take it from someone who knows Microsoft Windows inside-out and back to front all the way from version 2.0, I hate the direction in which Microsoft have gone. I refuse to use anything newer than Windows 7 on my own machines and the only reason I use and support Windows 10 is because I'm forced to at work. The thought of everything I've learnt over the last 30+ years becoming increasingly obsolete, is a little depressing.

But this thread is mostly about hardware. I said right from the beginning that I'm not going to either defend or rubbish Apple Mac OS. It's a pointless argument. I can completely see why millions of users prefer Apple software, just like I can see why people prefer Windows, Linux, Unix, Android, even bloody OS/2 Warp. To say one OS is "better" than the other, is like saying a certain colour is "better" than another. It's a stupid, childish argument.

Hardware on the other hand is what it is. If it's fragile, unstable, unreliable etc... then it's crap. No two ways about it. It's only real use is for people who don't give a crap and have money to spend. My problem with Apple in this area is that they command a premium price for what is essentially a designer product. It should be robust enough to last at least 10 years if not more (with the exclusion of the lithium battery). Will it be obsolete? Of course, however if I bought a Macbook, used it every day (but took reasonable care of it), I should be able to power it up many years later and have it work fine without the screen hanging off or the keyboard lifting. I should be able to buy an iPhone without fear of the touch screen or buttons failing, or that it's going to be bricked with a software update.

At the end of the day, the brand is completely irrelevant. This is about computing and technology in general. If a company makes terrible design decisions, skimp on component quality, don't do their R&D properly and treat their customers like idiots, then expect to be heavily criticised.

[bd139]

The hardware is the entry cost for the ecosystem. Honestly it has some problems. Aluminium being one. It deforms if you bash it around. But the reliability generally is off the scale compared to anything else. When it does fuck up it does it in style though.

I've seen all the same shenanigans happening with Apple stuff. It taking over 2,5 hours to register an Apple ID, marbles of doom, Safari crapping out, updates going wonky and excruciating weird stuff. All the stuff that shouldn't happen but does, regularly.

Yet I won't pretend Apple is crap for it. It works well for a lot of people. Windows works well for plenty of people. Linux has a loyal following. Android, iOS. Same, same. They're all far from perfect, but that's the name of the game. If you know what you're doing it's basically the same thing. You just pick your poison.

That lists doesn't include any of the "shenanigans" we are talking about here. Glad to see it's all working fine for you.
Nobody "pretends" apple is crap. We got proof.
And Windows is crap too, btw. Horrible support: mainly exists made by the users themselves. Always one problem after another, and that for non reason. But still better than Linux where you need to remember commands to do anything. I actually have no problems with Android.

bd139: "5. Forced update reboot."
Do you want to know how to set windows update to manual, even in windows 10?

This was forced by SCCM not windows. Showed the 6 hour countdown with only two minutes to go

[tooki]

bd139 and tooki, I usually enjoy your posts, not because I necessarily agree with everything you say, but in the manner in which you say it. But I think you've both missed the point a bit.

Tooki: I hate Apple for a number of reasons and it's not "just because" it's Apple. I couldn't give a crap what the brand is. If Dell or HP pulled the same crap, I'd be saying the same thing about them. Just because I'm not an Apple customer, doesn't mean I know nothing about their products. Like a lot of people here, I'm objective when it comes to making a decision which inevitably involves sinking thousands of dollars of my hard-earned money. I've worked in various facets of the IT industry for almost 20 years, everything from a technician putting together computers and providing help desk support when I was younger, all the way through to network engineering, information security and alike. I think I know much more about Apple, PC, Android... etc... products than the average "power user". As I said in another post if Apple were to change the way they thought about their customers, designed their hardware and provided support, I would happily buy one of their machines.

In addition, I still haven't heard any decent rebuttals to all the hardware issues that plague a number of Apple products, their lack of after-sales support or any of the other points raised by so-called "haters". All we seem to see in return is "my Apple device has been perfect [therefore they all must be and the problems don't exist]". Think about it, if you favourite car had all the same issues, you'd be pretty pissed off and you'd be down to the dealer pretty quickly for a "please explain".

As I’ve disclosed in other posts (not sure if in this thread or not, but definitely on EEVblog more than once), I worked for Apple years ago (so I am qualified to say, to an extent, how Apple thinks about customers), and remain an AAPL shareholder (so interested in seeing the company succeed; in my case, in the long term, since I don’t see this as a short-term investment).

With that in mind: Despite the problems some customers do have with Apple’s support, it is overwhelmingly good. The unhappy customers are (rightfully) angry and (rightfully) loud about it. But that doesn’t negate that the vast majority of customers are treated well. Heck, as a shareholder I should be angry that Apple often performs repairs for free under warranty (or AppleCare) that are customer abuse. But it helps loyalty in the long run.

What I can say is that, contrary to what the Apple haters accuse, Apple cares deeply about its customers. It’s why Apple does a lot of things that piss off investors, because they cost money. (Remember Tim Cook going off on an investor who complained that the ROI on accessibility features wasn’t high enough to justify it?) But Apple’s view, even on customers, is a long view. Apple is more than willing to cause some immediate discomfort or even anger in exchange for a better long run solution. (For example, replacing a poorly-performing application with a new one with a better foundation, but that is initially missing a LOT of features.) The other aspect of this is that Apple does not think of everyone as its customers: it is choosy. Apple doesn’t go after the low end of the market, where profits are slim and customer satisfaction is low. And that pisses off some people. Apple’s take is “so be it, we can’t be everything to everyone”. (That’s what MS tried to do for years, and it backfired.)

Anyway, when you say that issues “plague” the products, you ignore the fact that the overwhelming majority of units never have those problems. A repair technician like Rossmann is not seeing a representative sample of the units made. (There are, of course, the rare true problem product, like the new MacBook’s keyboard that seems to fail once the tiniest speck of dust makes its way in.) I have never claimed, as you accuse, that “I never had a problem, ergo nobody else does either”. That’s nonsense. As the adage goes: “the plural of anecdote is not ‘data’”. But it goes both ways: just because someone has seen a few fail doesn’t mean they all have.

As for Apple vs others, honestly, you might (whether in perception or actuality) judge Apple and other vendors by the same criteria, but the media, Wall Street, and the court of public opinion do not. You don’t see articles whining about, say, Asus routinely taking 4 weeks to replace a laptop keyboard. The media demand perfection of Apple and then write scathingly when Apple falters, while granting all kinds of leeway to others.

[BradC]

Aluminium being one. It deforms if you bash it around.

I've had a couple of careless moments with my laptops. The worst one is forgetting to zip up the laptop sleeve on my backpack before throwing it over my shoulder. I did it with a Vaio TT and smashed the corner off the machine leaving the optical drive hanging out. It spent the rest of its life wrapped in gaffa tape.

I'm sad to say I've done the same thing to my MacBook 3 times over the last 3 years (I'm a slow learner). The first time it went clear across the room. Sure the aluminium has some scuffs and a couple of dents, but the thing is bulletproof. Give me a "flimsy" aluminium MacBook over any other laptop I've ever owned any day of the week. Even one of my carbon fibre and magnesium Vaios ended up with cracked bits when someone jammed a case on my bag in the airline overhead. The MacBook just laughs at that kind of abuse.

[bd139]

My 2013 15” rMBP slid down my legs when I fell asleep and the lid deformed enough to pop the screen. Couldn’t disagree more. Screen cost me £252 in the end I think it was. Oops.

[Halcyon]

Point taken Tooki and thanks for the insight.

I really have nothing more to add other than, in a nutshell, my overall experience with Apple has been negative. But admittedly most recently (last 5-10 years) as opposed to any other time. I have fond memories of PowerPC's and even the Macintosh LC models. I grew up with that hardware. Back in the 1990's Apple was miles ahead of its competition, both in hardware and software. Those days are gone.

If I'm after a reliable and powerful desktop, I'll build it myself (and do so for less than what Apple can offer).
If I'm after a laptop, these days, it's slim pickings but I'm siding with Lenovo's ThinkPad T and P series.
If I'm after a phone, that differs between applications but it's either Blackberry or a decent Android handset such as what's on offer by Samsung.

[Distelzombie]

In addition, I still haven't heard any decent rebuttals to all the hardware issues that plague a number of Apple products, their lack of after-sales support or any of the other points raised by so-called "haters". All we seem to see in return is "my Apple device has been perfect [therefore they all must be and the problems don't exist]". Think about it, if you favourite car had all the same issues, you'd be pretty pissed off and you'd be down to the dealer pretty quickly for a "please explain".

I actually wrote almost exactly the same, but deleted it because I couldn't phrase it correctly, so I removed it. (Icouldn't make it sound level-headed)
Still no answers, though.

But the reliability generally is off the scale compared to anything else.

A baseless claim. Right after Halcyon asked you to actually come up with something.

As I’ve disclosed in other posts (not sure if in this thread or not, but definitely on EEVblog more than once), I worked for Apple years ago (so I am qualified to say, to an extent, how Apple thinks about customers), and remain an AAPL shareholder (so interested in seeing the company succeed; in my case, in the long term, since I don’t see this as a short-term investment).

With that in mind: Despite the problems some customers do have with Apple’s support, it is overwhelmingly good...

You know, this sounds like your telling us to not take your word seriously.

The unhappy customers are (rightfully) angry and (rightfully) loud about it. But that doesn’t negate that the vast majority of customers are treated well.

  And that is no argument. You're saying we should just ignore the very bad stuff because the vast majority of customers are OK with it? That is no argument. (Objectively! I am keeping my emotion at bay now, to increase objectivity.)

What I can say is that, contrary to what the Apple haters accuse, Apple cares deeply about its customers.
... But Apple’s view, even on customers, is a long view. Apple is more than willing to cause some immediate discomfort or even anger in exchange for a better long run solution.

That might sound tedious, but please prove this. Our accusations are based on evidence. And as Halcyon said: We just hear statements of no argumentative value. There must be some data on this somewhere.
Personal experience is not worth much. Even more so after you basically told us not to take your word for granted because you are financially involved. Just take this one experience of yours in relation to the millions of users who bought faulty hardware from apple and who just got flipped off when they wanted free repairs
Maybe Apple should stop repairing user-caused damage and start to do so with apple-caused damage.

Apple doesn’t go after the low end of the market, where profits are slim and customer satisfaction is low. And that pisses off some people. Apple’s take is “so be it, we can’t be everything to everyone”. (That’s what MS tried to do for years, and it backfired.)

Just to make that clear: We are not those people pissed off by their inexistent low-end market. (I assumed "we". I am definitely not.) We are pissed off by their practices and hardware, that is in reality higher-mid-tier or lower, instead of high-end, while demanding the highest prices of all.

Anyway, when you say that issues “plague” the products, you ignore the fact that the overwhelming majority of units never have those problems. A repair technician like Rossmann is not seeing a representative sample of the units made. (There are, of course, the rare true problem product, like the new MacBook’s keyboard that seems to fail once the tiniest speck of dust makes its way in.) I have never claimed, as you accuse, that “I never had a problem, ergo nobody else does either”. That’s nonsense. As the adage goes: “the plural of anecdote is not ‘data’”. But it goes both ways: just because someone has seen a few fail doesn’t mean they all have.

I understand and sign that.

As for Apple vs others, honestly, you might (whether in perception or actuality) judge Apple and other vendors by the same criteria, but the media, Wall Street, and the court of public opinion do not. You don’t see articles whining about, say, Asus routinely taking 4 weeks to replace a laptop keyboard. The media demand perfection of Apple and then write scathingly when Apple falters, while granting all kinds of leeway to others.

You don't understand that they do that because of their prices.


That is basically the root where all of these critics come from: Apple want to appear top-notch by demanding top-notch prices (That are virtual), yet they are as low as everyone else. Sometimes with even lower business practices.
This pretentiousness pisses us all off. So we try to pop your bubble by telling the truth. And then we come back to what I wrote in this post: emotional responses. (Sometimes)

The fact that you are calling us "haters" shows that your emotions are involved in making decisions about buying products or manufacturer choice. (You = No one specific, because everyone who buys apple seems to do that.) You then go at us because we don't show the same emotions and have a comprehensive reason for that.
You are treating apple products like extensions of yourself because of your emotional involvement. And we hater attack your Self when we say that these products suck balls and apple is pure greed. I wonder: Are Apple products using some kind of mind-control? Fast flashy colors somewhere, maybe? This statement actually points in that direction: "The Apple haters don’t know the Apple world properly." ("Just look at the screen and everything will make sense!" ... "Yeah, just look at it. Just once." ... "You'll feel better!" ... "Do it." ... "Guys! You are freaking me out! GET YOUR HAND OFF ME! HELP")

I hope all that come across as level-headed. I am not natively speaking English, as you may know. (And that isn't meant an excuse for all the posts I made.)

[olkipukki]

If I'm after a reliable and powerful desktop, I'll build it myself (and do so for less than what Apple can offer).

I am afraid, that's might be not entire true.

My assumptions (and experience) based on following:

1) Labour (aka time) cost is not free - you will need select components, read some stuff to optimise whole systems etc. In other words, you will need spend some time.
   Yes, of course, you can select bunch of items and build "a workstation" in just "a hour".

2) Longevity support and usage. In short, that means, for example: my ASUS motherboard (worth $500+) didn't update any BIOS/drivers for last 3+ years...

[tooki]

In addition, I still haven't heard any decent rebuttals to all the hardware issues that plague a number of Apple products, their lack of after-sales support or any of the other points raised by so-called "haters". All we seem to see in return is "my Apple device has been perfect [therefore they all must be and the problems don't exist]". Think about it, if you favourite car had all the same issues, you'd be pretty pissed off and you'd be down to the dealer pretty quickly for a "please explain".

I actually wrote almost exactly the same, but deleted it because I couldn't phrase it correctly, so I removed it. (Icouldn't make it sound level-headed)
Still no answers, though.

I’m not dignifying those claims with an extensively-researched “rebuttal” for the simple reason that there’s no reasonable claim to rebut. Nobody here has provided evidence of Apple having an above-average failure rate, nor of having below-average customer support. Just anecdotes from angry customers and repairmen, neither of which give any information whatsoever about the rate of failure (of hardware or support).

Nobody here has ever claimed Apple’s products, services, and support are perfect, either.

As I’ve disclosed in other posts (not sure if in this thread or not, but definitely on EEVblog more than once), I worked for Apple years ago (so I am qualified to say, to an extent, how Apple thinks about customers), and remain an AAPL shareholder (so interested in seeing the company succeed; in my case, in the long term, since I don’t see this as a short-term investment).

With that in mind: Despite the problems some customers do have with Apple’s support, it is overwhelmingly good...

You know, this sounds like your telling us to not take your word seriously.

No, I’m explaining my quaifications and biases. At least I’m aware of what mine are, and being open about them...

The unhappy customers are (rightfully) angry and (rightfully) loud about it. But that doesn’t negate that the vast majority of customers are treated well.

  And that is no argument. You're saying we should just ignore the very bad stuff because the vast majority of customers are OK with it? That is no argument. (Objectively! I am keeping my emotion at bay now, to increase objectivity.)

Nobody said that the failures should be ignored. You guys claim we have, but we didn’t. Saying that the failures do not negate the successes is not a contradiction!

You’re literally saying that, until Apple’s failure rate reaches 0.0000%, if we don’t agree with you that Apple is evil, then we are saying the failures are OK. That’s ridiculous.

What I can say is that, contrary to what the Apple haters accuse, Apple cares deeply about its customers.
... But Apple’s view, even on customers, is a long view. Apple is more than willing to cause some immediate discomfort or even anger in exchange for a better long run solution.

That might sound tedious, but please prove this. Our accusations are based on evidence. And as Halcyon said: We just hear statements of no argumentative value. There must be some data on this somewhere.
Personal experience is not worth much. Even more so after you basically told us not to take your word for granted because you are financially involved. Just take this one experience of yours in relation to the millions of users who bought faulty hardware from apple and who just got flipped off when they wanted free repairs
Maybe Apple should stop repairing user-caused damage and start to do so with apple-caused damage.

Again, you’re operating under the assumption that a) problems affect a high percentage of customers, and b) that Apple is not taking care of customers with problems. But there’s no evidence that this is widespread. (As in, there is no evidence that a high percentage of customers are affected.)

As for Apple vs others, honestly, you might (whether in perception or actuality) judge Apple and other vendors by the same criteria, but the media, Wall Street, and the court of public opinion do not. You don’t see articles whining about, say, Asus routinely taking 4 weeks to replace a laptop keyboard. The media demand perfection of Apple and then write scathingly when Apple falters, while granting all kinds of leeway to others.

You don't understand that they do that because of their prices.

If you think pricing is the reason, then YOU don’t understand. Because one of the problems with the “Apple is overpriced!” claim is that it’s not actually true, for the most part:
1. Whether something is OVERpriced has nothing to do with the cost to make it. If people are happy to pay the price, then clearly the benefits outweighed the cost.
2. Whether Apple is MORE EXPENSIVE than the competition is at times easier to compare, but still ignores that they aren’t 100% interchangeable products (e.g. a Windows PC is not a 100% perfect substitute for a Mac). Apple’s “secret sauce” of integrated hardware, software, and services is worth a premium to a lot of people. (If it’s not worth it to you, then don’t buy it, but don’t whine either!)
3. With the first two aside, I’ve literally (over and over, for years) had arguments with Apple haters who claim a given Apple device is more expensive, even when the actual price, all-in, is lower. Like one time a few years ago, when the respective top-of-the-line iPhone was $899 and Samsung was $949 (real-world, not MSRP), and someone was arguing with me that the Samsung was cheaper. (When I pointed out those prices, they switched to comparing the $899 iPhone to the Samsung at $199 on contract, ignoring you could get the iPhone for $199 on contract as well.) I will admit, it’s rare that the Apple product is actually cheaper for a truly comparable device. But the price differences are rarely as big as people say, especially when you compare comparable brands (e.g. HP and Lenovo’s business lines, not their plasticky consumer junk).

[GerryBags]

1) Labour (aka time) cost is not free - you will need select components, read some stuff to optimise whole systems etc. In other words, you will need spend some time.
   Yes, of course, you can select bunch of items and build "a workstation" in just "a hour".

Even if it took you a total of 50 hours, or a hundred, who bills themselves for the time they spent building their personal computer?? Obviously it's not wise to take a week off work to do it, but that's why they call the time you're not getting paid for "spare".

[tooki]

1) Labour (aka time) cost is not free - you will need select components, read some stuff to optimise whole systems etc. In other words, you will need spend some time.
   Yes, of course, you can select bunch of items and build "a workstation" in just "a hour".

Even if it took you a total of 50 hours, or a hundred, who bills themselves for the time they spent building their personal computer?? Obviously it's not wise to take a week off work to do it, but that's why they call the time you're not getting paid for "spare".

There’s a saying that you should value your spare time at 150% your hourly wage. So unless doing it yourself saves you at least 150%/h of your wage, you should pay someone else to do it, and enjoy your free time.

[Distelzombie]

Isn't this saying only applicable when you are doing something you don't like, something you are forced to do?

[GerryBags]

And by the time you've done a cost/benefit analysis followed up with a time and motion study, you could have built yourself a couple of PCs 

[tooki]

Isn't this saying only applicable when you are doing something you don't like, something you are forced to do?

Err, yes! I meant to add that, and totally forgot when typing up the post!!!!

[Distelzombie]

Isn't this saying only applicable when you are doing something you don't like, something you are forced to do?

Err, yes! I meant to add that, and totally forgot when typing up the post!!!!

I guess you did, or why why the exclamation marks?

[tooki]

Isn't this saying only applicable when you are doing something you don't like, something you are forced to do?

Err, yes! I meant to add that, and totally forgot when typing up the post!!!!

I guess you did, or why why the exclamation marks?

I’m not sure what you’re asking me... Are you asking me to explain what exclamation points are used for?

[Distelzombie]

Well yes. Because it sounds very passive aggressive and I'm not sure if that is what you intended.

[Richard Crowley]

https://youtu.be/UvvoGTvuTmA

[Distelzombie]

Wth? I just wondered why this 4 year old video is getting recommended to me and now I see it in this thread? That can't be coincidence. Google you god damned data-kraken!

[Halcyon]

Google you god damned data-kraken!

 

[tooki]

Well yes. Because it sounds very passive aggressive and I'm not sure if that is what you intended.

Not at all! I mean it literally as written: I meant to say that, and forgot.

Just because we’re on opposite sides of the debate doesn’t mean you need to look for hostility where none was intended...

[Distelzombie]

Yes! That's why I was asking.
And I only every saw people use "Err, yes!" when someone was pointing out something obvious. "Err, yes!" Is then usually followed by sarcasm or part of it.

Anyway, whatever! All fine and and dandy. 

[Bassman59]

Reports are that Apple fans are becoming weary of the expensive treadmill. 
Top end phone sales are in a downturn in favor of more sensibly priced models.

Share prices of Apple suppliers fall on ‘deeper trough’ of iPhone X sales
https://9to5mac.com/2018/04/24/iphone-x-sales-apple-suppliers/

Almost nobody wants the iPhone X
"But analysts say that tide is shifting: Dramatically fewer people are buying the latest iPhones."
https://qz.com/1260811/apples-second-quarter-2018-analyst-expect-poor-iphone-x-sales/

etc.....

Apple had expectations of the iPhone X sales, and those expectations are likely in line with actual sales.

But you’re missing the point. Apple makes the iPhone X for the same reason Chevrolet makes the Corvette. It’s the pricey prestige model in the line. Both products exist because their manufacturers need that high-end product. Chevy knows that the automotive press will spill a ton of ink on the Corvette, more than the sales of the product warrant. Apple knows that the tech press will do exactly the same for the iPhone X.

Chevy knows that most of their car-buying customers opt for the Malibu or the Cruze, just like Apple knows that their customers are buying iPhone 8 or 7. Chevy has the Spark in the lineup, Apple has the iPhone SE.

All of which is to say: analyst expectations are horseshit and irrelevant to what the companies know their customers want.

PS: I wonder how many Galaxy S9 phones are sold, given that they have iPhone X-level prices, vs the lower-priced models? I wonder why the tech press and Internet forum participants don’t comment on the price of the S9?

[Bassman59]

If you think pricing is the reason, then YOU don’t understand. Because one of the problems with the “Apple is overpriced!” claim is that it’s not actually true, for the most part:
3. With the first two aside, I’ve literally (over and over, for years) had arguments with Apple haters who claim a given Apple device is more expensive, even when the actual price, all-in, is lower. {snip} I will admit, it’s rare that the Apple product is actually cheaper for a truly comparable device. But the price differences are rarely as big as people say, especially when you compare comparable brands (e.g. HP and Lenovo’s business lines, not their plasticky consumer junk).

I don’t think it’s rare. I recently retired a 17” 2011 MacBook Pro (the last of the 17” MBPs). I think it cost $2400. I checked to see if there were equivalent Windows laptops. By “equivalent” I mean 17” display with the same resolution, the same processor (quad core i7, > 2 GHz) and SDRAM. Dell and HP both had similarly-equipped machines (in their business lines, not consumer, of course, which made them harder to find) and both pushed $3,000.  And the MacBook Pro had more USB ports, the combo analog/digital audio line-in and out jacks (I used the digital all the time), a Thunderbolt port, a FireWire port (also used all the time) and of course the great MagSafe power connector. I think the HP didn’t even have a video camera.

That machine lasted nearly 7 years of being bounced around the country in a backpack and being used literally every day.

I think that Dell and HP and Lenovo offer machines with equivalent performance to the current model Macs for similar prices. The main difference is, as you’ve said, Apple refuses to play the low-end/low-margin game, so since you cannot by a Mac for $499, we are told that “all Macs are expensive.”

FWIW, the daily work machine is an older Dell quad-core i7 running Windows 7. Why? Because Altium is Windows-only. While the Xilinx and Microsemi FPGA tools support Linux (CentOS) too, it doesn’t make sense to have two machines. Windows 7 works fine. All of these tools run fine in a Windows 7 virtual machine with VMWare on my Macs, though. Even the USB programming dongles.

[Halcyon]

PS: I wonder how many Galaxy S9 phones are sold, given that they have iPhone X-level prices, vs the lower-priced models? I wonder why the tech press and Internet forum participants don’t comment on the price of the S9?

They do. But unlike the iPhone, people are paying for a relatively high-spec and arguable more robust phone in the longer term and it still costs less.

Comparing the Samsung Galaxy S9 vs. Apple iPhone X:

The S9 has a higher resolution display (570ppi vs 458ppi)
The S9 has a fast processor (2.7/2.8 GHz vs 2.39 GHz)
The S9 has a larger battery (3 Ah vs 2.7 Ah)
The S9 has a fingerprint reader and a 3.5mm audio jack, the iPhone X doesn't
The S9 rear camera has a variable aperture down to 1.5f  (vs. 1.8f on the iPhone X)
The S9 has more RAM (4GB vs. 3GB)
The S9 is more resistant to water ingress (IP68 vs IP67)
The S9 has a microSD slot, supporting cards up to 400GB, the iPhone X doesn't
The S9 is marginally lighter than the iPhone (163g vs. 174g)
The S9 supports both Qi and A4WP wireless charging standards, the iPhone only supports Qi
The 64GB S9 is currently AUD$999 outright vs. AUD$1499 for the Apple iPhone X
Both Samsung and Apple have 9 branded retail stores in Sydney, with Samsung having additional repair/spare parts centres.

Then there are other features which users may or may not find relevant to their decision making, such as iris scanning, Lightning vs. USB-C ports etc...

[wraper]

I don’t think it’s rare. I recently retired a 17” 2011 MacBook Pro (the last of the 17” MBPs). I think it cost $2400. I checked to see if there were equivalent Windows laptops. By “equivalent” I mean 17” display with the same resolution, the same processor (quad core i7, > 2 GHz) and SDRAM. Dell and HP both had similarly-equipped machines (in their business lines, not consumer, of course, which made them harder to find) and both pushed $3,000.  And the MacBook Pro had more USB ports, the combo analog/digital audio line-in and out jacks (I used the digital all the time), a Thunderbolt port, a FireWire port (also used all the time) and of course the great MagSafe power connector. I think the HP didn’t even have a video camera.

I doubt there was no reasonably priced equivalents to this. But FWIW, forget about ports in their current products and welcome to dongle hell.

[rsjsouza]

I don’t think it’s rare. I recently retired a 17” 2011 MacBook Pro (the last of the 17” MBPs). I think it cost $2400. I checked to see if there were equivalent Windows laptops. By “equivalent” I mean 17” display with the same resolution, the same processor (quad core i7, > 2 GHz) and SDRAM. Dell and HP both had similarly-equipped machines (in their business lines, not consumer, of course, which made them harder to find) and both pushed $3,000.  And the MacBook Pro had more USB ports, the combo analog/digital audio line-in and out jacks (I used the digital all the time), a Thunderbolt port, a FireWire port (also used all the time) and of course the great MagSafe power connector. I think the HP didn’t even have a video camera.

I doubt there was no reasonably priced equivalents to this. But FWIW, forget about ports in their current products and welcome to dongle hell.

That and the fact one more business decision alienates part of their customers: I still can buy a "Lindows" laptop with real USB/video ports AND 17'' screens if I want.

[Distelzombie]

...

btw I just found this post. I didn't see it earlier for some reason.
I'm tired of arguing. It feels like I can't make myself clear enough, so everyone assumes parts of it and misses the point. Always.
It might be my English, who knows.
I'm not continuing on with this conversation. Sorry.

[Halcyon]

I'm tired of arguing. It feels like I can't make myself clear enough, so everyone assumes parts of it and misses the point. Always.
It might be English, who knows.
I'm not continuing on with this conversation. Sorry.

At the end of the day, it's one of those arguments where very few people take a step back and actually objectively analyse their own behaviour, habits and biases (and that goes for both sides of the argument). If someone wants to waste their money on a product that might last them a year, maybe two, despite cheaper and better engineered alternatives existing, go right ahead. It's not money out of my pocket. And before anyone says anything, I completely understand that some people must or just like to use Mac OS for whatever reason and that's fine. I'm talking about those who genuinely have a choice but choose not to exercise it and keep defending Apple like they are a model company that all others should base their products off.

As I said, I'll be more than happen to go out and buy an Apple product if they get their shit together. Until then, I'm going to stick with PC-based laptops and Android-based phones because they do everything I want them to do (and more) and they last as long far longer than the expected 2 years.

There are those who genuinely learn something from these types of conversations and can make more of an informed choice, this is why we shouldn't ignore the question. Word of mouth (particularly when it's from someone who knows) is a powerful thing.

[Avacee]

Apologies if already mentioned but my google-fu is weak. I recall there being another thread about apple slowing-down phones but this thread seems equally appropriate.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43960267

In short: Apple is accused of finding the most minor niggles that must be fixed due to these impairing the provision of a new battery and giving the phone a 90-day warranty.
In some cases Apple's claims that a paid-for replacement is needed due to parts are not working are being found to be spurious.

Also, this requirement that the phone must be in perfect condition first can't be found in any literature advertising the battery replacement service.
Though it is mentioned on Apple's repair website (which funnily enough people aren't reading before sending in their phones - because, in all honestly, why would they?) but it seems this impairment is being taken a bit far in an effort to get more cash from customers.

[bd139]

I think that's a fair policy. If the screen is damaged but useable and they replace the battery and damage the screen further when removing it therefore making it less functional then the liability shouldn't be theirs. Same as if someone brings me a laptop to repair and it's full of fag ends, spooge or is heavily damaged, then they get told to fuck off.

My wife got a new battery for hers a week or so ago. It didn't need one but it qualified so we took advantage of it. That is dinked to buggery but the screen isn't broken. They replaced it there and then no questions asked. Picked it up an hour later.

Also my earphones were getting fuckity because I treat them like shit. They replaced them FOC too!  (got to get your money's worth)

[wraper]

I once repaired iphone 5 with a dent on the corner. While I was removing display to access everything else, of course display cracked starting from that corner.

[Richard Crowley]

https://youtu.be/xhI1TgyPfWg

[bd139]

If Apple just fixed all this shit, which given the record of delivering on their complaints is high probability, how will he afford to eat without all the YouTube revenue?

[Halcyon]

Apple need to take note:



Full disclaimer: I don't own a Lenovo product, never have, but I'll be buying one next time I need a new laptop!

[Distelzombie]

If Apple just fixed all this shit, which given the record of delivering on their complaints is high probability, how will he afford to eat without all the YouTube revenue?

How did they fix their bad hardware retroactively?

[bd139]

Apple need to take note:

Full disclaimer: I don't own a Lenovo product, never have, but I'll be buying one next time I need a new laptop!

We have a LOT of ThinkPads. Don't buy a cheap consumer one i.e. not the ThinkPad line. They won't repair them. In fact you'll be lucky if they even respond to you.

If Apple just fixed all this shit, which given the record of delivering on their complaints is high probability, how will he afford to eat without all the YouTube revenue?

How did they fix their bad hardware retroactively?

https://www.apple.com/uk/support/exchange_repair/

[Distelzombie]

They just switch your battery in a macbook. What about mac-books breaking in half, or iPhones bending and all the other issues apple keeps forgetting about. everything except the battery replacement is old stuff too.
It's good that they do something. It's about time to update that page. (Always keeping the premium price in mind, ok)

[bd139]

Walk in to an Apple store and get it sorted. Seriously we have a pile of Apple kit. If we have a problem we just run it down to the Apple Store and get it sorted. NEVER had a single problem.

How the fuck do you break a MacBook in half?

Bendy iPhones I'll give you; that was shit.

[BrianHG]

[bd139]

Only two years after that we got the iPad 

[Distelzombie]

How the fuck do you break a MacBook in half?

The mac books whose hinges deattached because glue and "unibody"-lies - did you not see the videos the ppl here provide?
I don't want to  , just saying.

[MT]

Evil Apple dont pay taxes!

[tooki]

Evil Apple dont pay taxes!

A few thoughts on tax breaks:

- Your claim (“Apple [doesn’t] pay taxes!”) is an outright lie. Apple is the US’s single largest taxpayer, having paid just below $16 billion in tax in 2017.
- You think only Apple uses tax loopholes where possible?? (Apple may have been historically really on the forefront of using every loophole, but they’re hardly alone.) Every international company does this.
- As a publicly traded company, Apple is required by law to safeguard shareholder value. By not availing themselves of every available loophole, they’d open themselves to shareholder lawsuits.
- You cannot blame a taxpayer (corporate or person) for using every tax break available to them. If you don’t think the loopholes are fair, then change the laws.

[Halcyon]

Spot on Tooki.

Even I take advantage of every single tax offset or deduction I possibly can to avoid paying more tax than I have to out of my personal income. You'd be silly not to do this if you're entitled to do so.

In the 2015-2016 financial year, there were over 730 large companies that paid no tax in Australia, included in the list:

Acer Computer Australia
Citrix Asia Pacific
Unisys
Canon Australia
Ingram Micro Holdings Australia
IBM Australia/NZ Holdings
Vodafone Hutchison Australia
Virgin Australia
The Walt Disney Company Australia
Sydney Airport Limited
Sharp Corporation of Australia
Fuji Xerox Asia Pacific
NEC Australia
Eaton Industries
NBN Co. Limited (the government-owned broadband network)
Ford Motor Company of Australia

...the list goes on.

One shouldn't single out Apple for doing so and to be honest, good on them for managing to get away with it legally.

[MT]

- Your claim (“Apple [doesn’t] pay taxes!”) is an outright lie.

I dont lie, i just listen to fake news as you do and from that draw conclusions.

http://fortune.com/2018/01/18/apple-bonuses-money-us-350-billion-taxes-trump/

Apple is the US’s single largest taxpayer, having paid just below $16 billion in tax in 2017.

For years and years they have kept money outside US as to successfully avoiding paying tax.

- You think only Apple uses tax loopholes where possible??

(Apple may have been historically really on the forefront of using every loophole, but they’re hardly alone.) Every international company does this.

So there you go, confession straight from horses mouth about Apples tax avoidance schemes, stop licking Tim's arse!

- As a publicly traded company, Apple is required by law to safeguard shareholder value. By not availing themselves of every available loophole, they’d open themselves to shareholder lawsuits.

  breaking the law...breaking the law.
http://fortune.com/2018/01/18/apple-bonuses-money-us-350-billion-taxes-trump/

- You cannot blame a taxpayer (corporate or person) for using every tax break available to them.

Yes you can particularly when the whole shit is rigged from the beginning, you profoundly just show how (or act) naive you are about things work on this planet.

Not to mention Switzerland one of the biggest tax haves on the planet no wonder USA and other states put your crocked government under enormous pressure past decade for just this Luxembourg, Panama Isle of Man some Caribbean and Switzerland is the crockiest countries on this planet you should all be shut down.

If you don’t think the loopholes are fair, then change the laws.

Said the man who him self sits in the center of a tax heaven , typical the Swiss sentiment, always right even proven wrong. Besides Swiss currency is overated like hell!

Apple only pays taxes if pressured to do so. Ireland was ordered to collect Apple back taxes for 2003-2014, putting Apple’s new tax bill at a steep €13 billion [$15.4 billion.] So why the hell based on your reasoning would Apple then agree to pay back taxes only when pressured if it's as Tom Crock says not by law required. Not only that Apple could have pay'd these in 2009, instead id their best to avoid paying taxes by holding money in tax havens.
https://gizmodo.com/apple-successfully-avoids-50-billion-in-american-taxes-1822189738

[tooki]

Sorry MT, I was going to address your replies, but when I got to “stop licking Tim Cook’s arse” I stopped. Your stupid reply doesn’t deserve a real response. You call me naive, but it’s you who doesn’t understand how things work. And your comments about the Ireland tax situation betray a profound lack of understanding of the situation. You haven’t “proven [me] wrong” as you claim, you’ve only proven yourself to be an idiot by claiming things that are untrue and then declaring victory when I state a fact.

By the way, I’m not going to address “Swiss sentiment” since I’m not actually Swiss. I just live here. You shouldn’t make assumptions based on nationality, anyway - never mind off a little flag on a forum, which says only where someone claims to live, nothing more.

[Mr. Scram]

I thought it was common knowledge that Apple is sitting on an unprecedented pile of money to avoid paying taxes. I hadn't read they lobbied for a deal to get the money to the US cheaper. I'm not sure how the US tax payer should feel about that. Apple certainly isn't the only company to get creative, but it is on a scale not often seen. Maybe never seen before.

Of course, it fits in a larger discussion about how the biggest and wealthiest companies manage to pay less than their fair share of taxes, while taking full advantage of the system paid for by taxes.

[tooki]

Yep. I actually think the entire concept of tax havens is a scam, and that corporations should be paying more tax overall. But it’s ridiculous to expect any company to simply ignore tax breaks that exist. That’s not breaking the law!!

That’s why I say: if we think the amount of tax owed is too small (as in, we think that morally, they should be paying more), then we should change the laws. It’s that simple.

[tooki]

P.S. What’s kinda interesting about Apple’s sorta pioneering uses of certain tax havens is that when they started doing it, they were big, but nowhere distantly near the size they are now. We are talking early 80s, when Apple was pretty much in its infancy, despite being a pioneer in its industry.

[Mr. Scram]

Yep. I actually think the entire concept of tax havens is a scam, and that corporations should be paying more tax overall. But it’s ridiculous to expect any company to simply ignore tax breaks that exist. That’s not breaking the law!!

That’s why I say: if we think the amount of tax owed is too small (as in, we think that morally, they should be paying more), then we should change the laws. It’s that simple.

The problem with that is that it's an international market with a patchwork of laws and rules. It's almost impossible to not have loopholes in a single country. It's absolutely impossible not to have them in the entire world. That's why a moral appeal isn't unfair or unjust. To expect these companies to behave as decent citizens would isn't too much to ask. Even the shareholders would agree, if the alternative is naming and shaming companies that abuse rules or even have them written to their advantage.

As one of the articles pointed out, the tax dodged by the lobbied for rule change is insane. There are close to two hundred countries with a smaller annual budget than the tax that was dodged. That's roughly $125 for each American citizen. That's beyond the realm of clever tricks. People should be upset.

"For context, this difference is more than double the annual cost of the federal Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP), which covers the health care costs of nine million children from low-income families. CHIP is currently in crisis, with Congress debating whether it will be included in a spending bill to avoid a government shutdown.

Maybe if we spent less on massive handouts to the wealthiest companies in the world, we’d have more to spend on sick children."

[tooki]

The problem with that is that it's an international market with a patchwork of laws and rules.

Yes, that’s a big challenge.

It's almost impossible to not have loopholes in a single country. It's absolutely impossible not to have them in the entire world.

I think it’s important to acknowledge what “loopholes” are: tax breaks created specifically to benefit certain players. “Loophole” makes them sound like accidents, but they’re not. They’re deliberate. This is why I think it’s important to call them “tax breaks”.

With that in mind, suddenly the problem is less daunting: it’s not about plugging accidental holes, it’s about removing holes that were made on purpose.

That's why a moral appeal isn't unfair or unjust. To expect these companies to behave as decent citizens would isn't too much to ask.

Correct. But the issue is how to define what is and isn’t “decent”. There’s no way to do this, other than by writing rules.

Even the shareholders would agree, if the alternative is naming and shaming companies that abuse rules or even have them written to their advantage.

Oh man... good luck with that. Most shares are held by investment funds and the like, and they absolutely do not care about anything but ROI.

As one of the articles pointed out, the tax dodged by the lobbied for rule change is insane.

It’s a compromise made among a sea of awful tax breaks that never should have been created in the first place.

There are close to two hundred countries with a smaller annual budget than the tax that was dodged.

Totally irrelevant.

That's roughly $125 for each American citizen. That's beyond the realm of clever tricks. People should be upset.

Are you kidding? $125/citizen is peanuts compared to all the other crap that gets subsidized.

And again, Apple has done nothing illegal. You may think it’s morally “wrong”, but it was fully legal. Don’t like it? Push lawmakers to change the law. (E.g. require all income to be repatriated immediately.)

[Distelzombie]

Could you not create a law that prohibits firms in foreign countries to employ someone in your own? This sounds like it would fix the issue.

[Mr. Scram]

Could you not create a law that prohibits firms in foreign countries to employ someone in your own? This sounds like it would fix the issue.

What would that achieve? It'd make your country very uninteresting on the international market. Of course, it's also easily dodged by having two companies owned by the same people exclusively trading with each other. You won't have any foreigners employed, though you operate as if you do for all other intents and purposes.

[glarsson]

Of course, it's also easily dodged by having two companies owned by the same people exclusively trading with each other. You won't have any foreigners employed, though you operate as if you do for all other intents and purposes.

This is how international companies work. The Apple Store employees in Sweden are employed by Apple Retail Sweden AB, a local company, not by Apple Inc. Should all income from the Swedish Apple Stores be repatriated (to the US) immediately without paying taxes in Sweden?

[Mr. Scram]

This is how international companies work. The Apple Store employees in Sweden are employed by Apple Retail Sweden AB, a local company, not by Apple Inc. Should all income from the Swedish Apple Stores be repatriated (to the US) immediately without paying taxes in Sweden?

The current problem is that taxes are paid, or not paid in the country where it's earned. It's diverted to some low tax country where it's held until some favourable deal is made. Meanwhile, smallest companies pay their regular and fair share. Citizens should expect as much.

I think this is why the EU started taxing sales in the place the buyer lives, rather than where the seller is registered. It's an absolute pain in the ass for smaller companies trading in many different countries, but it's apparently necessary.

[Halcyon]

Wow, this is a new one I haven't heard before. Just another example of Apple selling crappy quality components and screwing the customer.

USD$80 for a VESA mount, that's a flimsy piece of crap. And Apple claimed that even though it's sold by them, it's a third-party product and they won't offer warranty on it.

If that were in Australia, they would be hauled before a court (again). What the hell? Honestly, why do people keep buying this rubbish?!

[rsjsouza]

I saw that yesterday, and it got me thinking about the previously discussed argument of how Apple is put to higher standards when compared to other brands. The somewhat light tone of anger in this video and a few others gave me the impression the reverse is what could be true: how Apple is put to lower standards by their own customers.

The attempt to dodge responsibility and blame third party supply when selling a fully branded and expensive adapter with substandard components is the only topic more aggressively addressed.

However, the lack of competent technical support for their high end computing platform, associated with the lies and severe delays of its progress seemed to me somewhat watered down by the argument that not everyone buys it - if I have a manufacturer's assurance of repairability, I don't care how it will be done and by whom, just give me a realistic date and deliver.

The reaction to the physical condition of the repaired unit seemed also quite watered down (to me that would have triggered a massive s***storm), although after such terrible service I can't fully blame him for not pursuing this further.
 
Anyhow, that was my impression that may have been amplified by the all around incompetence that damaged a nice piece of kit.

[TerraHertz]

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-27/1995-steve-jobs-explained-exactly-how-apple-will-fail
In 1995, Steve Jobs Explained Exactly How Apple Will Fail


Steve Jobs Interview - Product People should get promoted Over Sales Marketing People

Jobs was right about that. But that factor was only one element of what went wrong with Apple.
My start in computing was with an Apple II. At that time, and into the era of the early Macs I admired the company and had great hopes for it. Learning how Jobs treated Wozniac (who was my tech hero) taught me the future wasn't so bright after all. The path Apple took confirmed my concerns. There was much more to it than 'marketing droids taking over'. Apple had started out as a potential force for good, but became evil. Microsoft had been evil from the start. Quite depressing.

[Mr. Scram]

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-27/1995-steve-jobs-explained-exactly-how-apple-will-fail
In 1995, Steve Jobs Explained Exactly How Apple Will Fail


Steve Jobs Interview - Product People should get promoted Over Sales Marketing People

Jobs was right about that. But that factor was only one element of what went wrong with Apple.
My start in computing was with an Apple II. At that time, and into the era of the early Macs I admired the company and had great hopes for it. Learning how Jobs treated Wozniac (who was my tech hero) taught me the future wasn't so bright after all. The path Apple took confirmed my concerns. There was much more to it than 'marketing droids taking over'. Apple had started out as a potential force for good, but became evil. Microsoft had been evil from the start. Quite depressing.

If I'm honest it seems that people thinking of companies in terms of good and evil are fairly naive, especially when they're publicly traded companies. Their morality is guided by their profits. Not even by choice, but law dictates they have to work with their shareholder's interests in mind.

[TerraHertz]

If I'm honest it seems that people thinking of companies in terms of good and evil are fairly naive, especially when they're publicly traded companies. Their morality is guided by their profits. Not even by choice, but law dictates they have to work with their shareholder's interests in mind.

Firstly, the concept of an immortal, soulless entity with no other permitted objective but to make profit for shareholders, is itself intrinsically evil. Do you think 'shareholder profit' is equivalent to some kind of greater good? Allowing 'corporate personhood' was one of the most awful historical mistakes, ever.

Secondly, it's naive to imagine that all corporations actually act solely in that superficial manner. Of course they don't. They act in whatever manner the top executives desire (motivated by their own ideological agenda and privately offered incentives) and can get away with within the limitations of minimal legal disclosure, lying as much as they can without being caught, and however far they can rig the accounting. Even if everything was above board (it usually isn't) there's a great deal of leeway for different 'moral styles' of operation.

It's even more naive (and actually morally severely negligent) to imagine that concepts of 'good' and 'evil' are not applicable to huge entities like multinational corporations. Whose actions affect the entire world's population, all nations, and the global ecosystem, now and extending far in to the future. In many ways corporate decisions affect the world more drastically than governments and ideologies.

[Mr. Scram]

Firstly, the concept of an immortal, soulless entity with no other permitted objective but to make profit for shareholders, is itself intrinsically evil. Do you think 'shareholder profit' is equivalent to some kind of greater good? Allowing 'corporate personhood' was one of the most awful historical mistakes, ever.

Secondly, it's naive to imagine that all corporations actually act solely in that superficial manner. Of course they don't. They act in whatever manner the top executives desire (motivated by their own ideological agenda and privately offered incentives) and can get away with within the limitations of minimal legal disclosure, lying as much as they can without being caught, and however far they can rig the accounting. Even if everything was above board (it usually isn't) there's a great deal of leeway for different 'moral styles' of operation.

It's even more naive (and actually morally severely negligent) to imagine that concepts of 'good' and 'evil' are not applicable to huge entities like multinational corporations. Whose actions affect the entire world's population, all nations, and the global ecosystem, now and extending far in to the future. In many ways corporate decisions affect the world more drastically than governments and ideologies.

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. You seem to understand there's a spectrum of ways businesses can operate, yet insist there's a black and white interpretation of that. What's good for one isn't good for another and that's anything but black and white.

Besides, you seem to have a bone to pick with corporations even though I assume your living standard largely depends on them.

[rsjsouza]

In my experience, companies seem to have a specific goal in mind that acts as the drive to inspire people - at that stage, success seems to be a secondary concern and seen as a natural consequence of attaining the main goal. That tends to happen at early stages of most companies, but can happen throughout its lifetime as innovative or disruptive technologies come along.

One thing that Apple was quite innovative was to bring an easiness of use and smoothness to the common man. That is something that permeated the company during the Jobs' second term at the helm of the company but, against his own idea on the video, he himself is a "Sales and Marketing" person as well. Sure, he was also a "Product" person but his product ideas had no shortage of ups and downs. No company can rely solely on one or another for their decision making.

[tooki]

Wow, this is a new one I haven't heard before. Just another example of Apple selling crappy quality components and screwing the customer.

USD$80 for a VESA mount, that's a flimsy piece of crap. And Apple claimed that even though it's sold by them, it's a third-party product and they won't offer warranty on it.

If that were in Australia, they would be hauled before a court (again). What the hell? Honestly, why do people keep buying this rubbish?!

Something about that story doesn't add up. Apple sells third-party products, and Apple's own products are all contract manufactured anyway. It makes no sense to add another category (third-party but Apple-branded), but moreover, if the VESA adapter's own support info gives the Apple number, it seems to me it's an Apple product. Whatever the phone monkey thought, it was almost certainly incorrect.

The reaction to the physical condition of the repaired unit seemed also quite watered down (to me that would have triggered a massive s***storm), although after such terrible service I can't fully blame him for not pursuing this further.

If you look at the video comments, he did pursue it further, and Apple replaced the machine for him with a brand new one.

[rsjsouza]

The reaction to the physical condition of the repaired unit seemed also quite watered down (to me that would have triggered a massive s***storm), although after such terrible service I can't fully blame him for not pursuing this further.

If you look at the video comments, he did pursue it further, and Apple replaced the machine for him with a brand new one.

Thanks; I haven't read the comments. In this case, kudos to Apple for setting this straight. Hopefully he got some "extra swag" for his wasted time.

[tooki]

The reaction to the physical condition of the repaired unit seemed also quite watered down (to me that would have triggered a massive s***storm), although after such terrible service I can't fully blame him for not pursuing this further.

If you look at the video comments, he did pursue it further, and Apple replaced the machine for him with a brand new one.

Thanks; I haven't read the comments. In this case, kudos to Apple for setting this straight. Hopefully he got some "extra swag" for his wasted time.

Not a chance; Apple stores don’t have swag at all. The only place in the world that carries it is campus store at the headquarters.

[Distelzombie]

Did he go in the hardwarestore and buy some quality screws? Or would that void the warranty because they are not apple certified?

[Halcyon]

Did he go in the hardwarestore and buy some quality screws? Or would that void the warranty because they are not apple certified?

Going by Apple's recent history, they would probably claim that it's a "counterfeit" product and would void your warranty there and then.

[BrianHG]

If it took me this long and have to go through all these hoops to fix my PC, I would be long out of business.

[rsjsouza]

Only to show how the company's practices are the big piece for criticism - everything else is debatable (quality of products, ease of use, features, etc.)

I guess they really turned themselves into their former arch nemesis: IBM. Shameful.

[Zimphire]

Im still using my 2011 Mac mini with no problems. Love it. Will buy a new Mac when it dies or becomes too slow for the software.

[tooki]

Im still using my 2011 Mac mini with no problems. Love it. Will buy a new Mac when it dies or becomes too slow for the software.

I wish Apple would update the damned mini. I really loved those. (As for me, my main Mac is still my 2008 Mac Pro!)

[BrianHG]

Im still using my 2011 Mac mini with no problems. Love it. Will buy a new Mac when it dies or becomes too slow for the software.

I wish Apple would update the damned mini. I really loved those. (As for me, my main Mac is still my 2008 Mac Pro!)

Nothing wrong with the old MACs, it's the new ones beginning around 2 years after Steve Jobs died.

[bd139]

My 2013 rMBP is fine

[Bassman59]

Im still using my 2011 Mac mini with no problems. Love it. Will buy a new Mac when it dies or becomes too slow for the software.

I wish Apple would update the damned mini. I really loved those. (As for me, my main Mac is still my 2008 Mac Pro!)

Supposedly a new mini this fall. (My late 2012 last-of-the-quad-i7s mini is still chugging along like a champ, though.)

[tooki]

Im still using my 2011 Mac mini with no problems. Love it. Will buy a new Mac when it dies or becomes too slow for the software.

I wish Apple would update the damned mini. I really loved those. (As for me, my main Mac is still my 2008 Mac Pro!)

Supposedly a new mini this fall. (My late 2012 last-of-the-quad-i7s mini is still chugging along like a champ, though.)

I hope you’re right!! A Mac mini with Thunderbolt, with a thunderbolt gpu and disk enclosure, would be a decent quasi-Mac Pro substitute.

[rdl]

Mac Mini was the only Apple product I ever considered buying. That was back when they started putting C2Ds in them, but they were too expensive for what you got.  Maybe now I can find a used one for cheap on ebay.

[Bassman59]

Im still using my 2011 Mac mini with no problems. Love it. Will buy a new Mac when it dies or becomes too slow for the software.

I wish Apple would update the damned mini. I really loved those. (As for me, my main Mac is still my 2008 Mac Pro!)

Supposedly a new mini this fall. (My late 2012 last-of-the-quad-i7s mini is still chugging along like a champ, though.)

I hope you’re right!! A Mac mini with Thunderbolt, with a thunderbolt gpu and disk enclosure, would be a decent quasi-Mac Pro substitute.

My mac mini has Thunderbolt 2! It's connected to an Other World Computing dock, which gives four USB 3.0 ports, an HDMI port (so I can drive two monitors), another FireWire 800 port (I still use FW!), another gigabit Ethernet port, and meh-quality audio out (stereo) and in (mono). Works well.

My guess is that the new mini will have Thunderbolt 3 (the USB-C connector). Anyone's guess as to what other peripherals it might offer. But if it's a 6-core i7 like the new MacBook Pro, they won't be able to make them fast enough.