Author Topic: Why is it the more I read the EEVblog forum, my expectations of Apple keeps...  (Read 43796 times)

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Offline wraper

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Did you happen to use after-market DisplayPort cables? I've found with the newer Z-series Workstations, if you use after-market cables which aren't up to scratch, the machine won't power on. No idea why they've designed it that way. I found this out the hard way after about an hour.
Those crap cables are made not up to spec and may cause weird ass issues. They connect 5V pins in DP connector from both monitor and PC. This causes back powering PC from monitor while PC is turned off. Those 5V are supposed to power dongles/converters and similar stuff and must not connect within the cable.
 

Offline bd139

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These were HP desktops. Mainly "completely dead" without diagnosis. Wouldn't power on.

Did you happen to use after-market DisplayPort cables? I've found with the newer Z-series Workstations, if you use after-market cables which aren't up to scratch, the machine won't power on. No idea why they've designed it that way. I found this out the hard way after about an hour.

Boot the machine up normally with the HP supplied cable, no problems. Disconnect and replace with longer, after-market DP cable (while the machine is running), no video sync. Reboot, red light on the front of the machine indicating "PSU failure", when that isn't the case.

No these were the ones that came with them. They wouldn’t even post.
 

Offline jmelson

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When they die, I'll probably have to bite the bullet and step back into the Windows world (or maybe even linux, I hate Windows -- no flames please).
Well, if you are using Macs, then you are practically running Linux already.  OSX is BSD-derived, so the kernel ONLY is different, but all the standard utilities in Linux and BSD are compiled from the same sources.  All the network stuff is exactly the same code.  Of course, the main user-level utilities and the window manager are Apple's, but that REALLY is starting to look just like the Linux desktop, too.

I've been running Linux almost exclusively since 1998, and it works fine for me.  Yes, once in a while there is some issue with new media players or something, but you just do an update and everything is back to working.  I generally do NOT update unless something stops working - YouTube being the worst offender.

I laugh at all the people fretting with viruses and anti-virus software that misses all the new ones.  (But, then, as a Mac user, you probably do the same.)
Only a totally BRAIN-DEAD company would use the Microsoft model where you RUN any code anybody sends you!  In Linux, I occasionally get an infected file, load it into a spreadsheet or something and immediately get a warning that there are macros in it - do I want to run it?

As for reliability, my desktop computers often run for 9 months before there's a power failure, and my phone system is running a Debian-based Linux kernel with Asterisk software, and it has been running over a YEAR.  Even my web server, which is under constant attack on the net, usually stays up for months.  And, I don't even bother with a UPS here.

Jon
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Got some numbers. 171 desktop PCs. 7% failure rate in 36 months. 90% of the failed units failed within 6 months. Failures were 40% down to one model of desktop. Rest were random. We planned for 5% failure every year so this was good after the spike of dead machines near the start.
That seems to confirm you've had a bad batch or model. Completely dead systems are rare as hen's teeth and nothing I ever encountered, other than one that was "fixed" by someone.  :palm:

While replacing approximately the same number of systems with generic HP boxes we haven't had a single failure, other than one USB port having bent pins and one screen being DOA. An equivalent number of machines a decade old and in continuous use is only approaching a 7% failure rate.

 

Offline Distelzombie

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... so tired of Windows slowing down brand new powerful laptops and updating antivirus software almost every single day, dealing with Windows registry, software removal process that left tons of uninstalled pieces of software...
-How do you know those brand new computer aren't that slow in the first place? They're brand new, you never knew it before by definition of that term. What do you even mean with slow? Computing power or a feeling?
-Updating antivirus software? How does that affect anything you do? |O Also you don't need any other anti virus software than windows defender. It is good now. (win 10)
-Why would you need to deal with the registry? Those cases are very rare. You can do most things with the group policies. Don't EVER "clean" you registry btw, if you meant that.
-Software removal that leave files behind is just bad software uninstaller programming. Nothing to do with windows.

Apart from the device that still work: if you have a problem with one and it's the manufacturers fault, don't you think they should do something? They apparently just ignore until they get sued. Is that not a problem for you?

As if other manufacturer acted differently....

But if Samsung/ASUS/dell have the same behaviour it is apparently fine
It is not fine! It never is! EVEN MORE SO when you pay the highest prices without getting the best hardware! Like apple. You don't pay for the hardware - that just doesn't cost as much, it's cheap.  |O
--------------------------------------------------

How are you guys breaking all the computers? I have laptops from ... well they run XP, that are still working flawless! I am currently writing on a 10 year old laptop because my main PC died in a fire. None of my PCs ever died without it being my fault. (You are in a corporation, I believe? Of course when things break it is no ones fault there either. "I did nothing out of the ordinary, and suddenly it won't work anymore!" Thought about that?) Of course the batteries are all dead. But at least you can change the batteries. BUT AT LEAST YOU CAN CHANGE THE BATTERIES! |O YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH YOUR APPLE MAC! WHY DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS? YOU CAN'T REPAIR SHIT WHEN THINGS BREAK! THIS IS REALLY BAD! HOW DO YOU STILL THINK THEY ARE SUPERIOR? AAAAAAH |O |O |O |O
It's just so stupid! I don't get why you pay those fuckers imaginary prices when you can't even change something as simple as a battery, that is with 100% certainty going to die at some time! You're stupid!
HOW DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS! HOW??!?! |O

Offline Bud

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You alright buddy?
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 
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Offline Distelzombie

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I'm getting frustrated. :) It is so simple to me. I don't understand you fanboys. Nobody was talking about user interfaces until apple guys brought that up. That's not important!
Even how often things break is not really important. If they break you can't repair them: That is important. That is what frustrates me: That you just ignore it.

"You're frustrating me!"

DANG IT STOP MAKING AN EMBEDDED PLAYER FFS AAAh forum, you're frustrating me too
I just want to link to a certain time in that video. "0m45s", doesn't work with an embedded player. Graaah! Well, then a different video it is, ok.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 03:22:02 am by Distelzombie »
 

Offline Halcyon

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I'm getting frustrated. :) It is so simple to me. I don't understand you fanboys. Nobody was talking about user interfaces until apple guys brought that up. That's not important!
Even how often things break is not really important. If they break you can't repair them: That is important. That is what frustrates me. That you just ignore it.

Exactly the point most of us are making.

No matter how much of a turd the hardware is, you'll always get fanboys trying in vain to defend it. I don't know why.
 

Offline filssavi

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... so tired of Windows slowing down brand new powerful laptops and updating antivirus software almost every single day, dealing with Windows registry, software removal process that left tons of uninstalled pieces of software...
-How do you know those brand new computer aren't that slow in the first place? They're brand new, you never knew it before by definition of that term. What do you even mean with slow? Computing power or a feeling?
-Updating antivirus software? How does that affect anything you do? |O Also you don't need any other anti virus software than windows defender. It is good now. (win 10)
-Why would you need to deal with the registry? Those cases are very rare. You can do most things with the group policies. Don't EVER "clean" you registry btw, if you meant that.
-Software removal that leave files behind is just bad software uninstaller programming. Nothing to do with windows.

Apart from the device that still work: if you have a problem with one and it's the manufacturers fault, don't you think they should do something? They apparently just ignore until they get sued. Is that not a problem for you?

As if other manufacturer acted differently....

But if Samsung/ASUS/dell have the same behaviour it is apparently fine
It is not fine! It never is! EVEN MORE SO when you pay the highest prices without getting the best hardware! Like apple. You don't pay for the hardware - that just doesn't cost as much, it's cheap.  |O
--------------------------------------------------

How are you guys breaking all the computers? I have laptops from ... well they run XP, that are still working flawless! I am currently writing on a 10 year old laptop because my main PC died in a fire. None of my PCs ever died without it being my fault. (You are in a corporation, I believe? Of course when things break it is no ones fault there either. "I did nothing out of the ordinary, and suddenly it won't work anymore!" Thought about that?) Of course the batteries are all dead. But at least you can change the batteries. BUT AT LEAST YOU CAN CHANGE THE BATTERIES! |O YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH YOUR APPLE MAC! WHY DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS? YOU CAN'T REPAIR SHIT WHEN THINGS BREAK! THIS IS REALLY BAD! HOW DO YOU STILL THINK THEY ARE SUPERIOR? AAAAAAH |O |O |O |O
It's just so stupid! I don't get why you pay those fuckers imaginary prices when you can't even change something as simple as a battery, that is with 100% certainty going to die at some time! You're stupid!
HOW DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS! HOW??!?! |O

Let’s talk about batteries...

Is the dell XPS battery more user replaceable than a MacBook’s ? hint: no you have to open the laptop to do it, so the same as a MacBook
Is the HP zbook mobile workstation (as  HP website puts it) more user replaceable than a MacBook? No, same  as before you have to open the pc and disconnect ribbon cabled to get to the battery the complexity is on par with a MacBook
Is the alienware 13 battery replacement user friendly?  You have to remove ram, sad, WiFi module, a plethora of cables and the back shell (in this order) so no it’s much harder than on a MacBook


So what I think that your problem is not Apple but all the laptop industry, so you might want to hold on to the XP era laptops...
 
Also are you really arguing that a decent dell/hp is so cheap that if they don’t give warranty or service is fine? Because I’d like to buy such a cheap laptop...

My theory is that the biggest Apple haters are people who would like to purchase Apple but are too cheap to do so and so complain in the vain hope that Apple lowers prices (it won’t happen)
 
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Offline Distelzombie

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Apple started to solder in the batteries, you know? They solder in everything today. Do you know that?

Also are you really arguing that a decent dell/hp is so cheap that if they don’t give warranty or service is fine? Because I’d like to buy such a cheap laptop...
I don't understand that sentence. What is it supposed to mean?
Is the dell XPS battery more user replaceable than...
...
So what I think that your problem is not Apple but all the laptop industry...
...
My theory is that the biggest Apple haters are people who would like to purchase Apple but are too cheap to do so and so complain in the vain hope that Apple lowers prices (it won’t happen)
All I do is to sincerely hope that people who buy that stuff wake up to the atrociousness they payed a PREMIUM for. (Emphasis on PREMIUM!) Instead they keep coming up with examples from other manufacturers, as if that would be an argument. It's fallacy to do that, btw. (Tu Quoque)
I repeat: You are paying a premium fee for nothing!
I don't want those things they produce. I want to be able to repair my stuff at least somehow. The laptop I use is also hard to maintain. But it is possible. Try that keyboard replacement Louis mentioned.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 04:27:42 am by Distelzombie »
 

Offline BrianHGTopic starter

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Offline bd139

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Got some numbers. 171 desktop PCs. 7% failure rate in 36 months. 90% of the failed units failed within 6 months. Failures were 40% down to one model of desktop. Rest were random. We planned for 5% failure every year so this was good after the spike of dead machines near the start.
That seems to confirm you've had a bad batch or model. Completely dead systems are rare as hen's teeth and nothing I ever encountered, other than one that was "fixed" by someone.  :palm:

While replacing approximately the same number of systems with generic HP boxes we haven't had a single failure, other than one USB port having bent pins and one screen being DOA. An equivalent number of machines a decade old and in continuous use is only approaching a 7% failure rate.

Dangerous. Failure rates suddenly increase after 5 years. You might start losing tens of them.  Then you don’t have the capex to replace. This is how not to run an IT department.

I'm getting frustrated. :) It is so simple to me. I don't understand you fanboys. Nobody was talking about user interfaces until apple guys brought that up. That's not important!
Even how often things break is not really important. If they break you can't repair them: That is important. That is what frustrates me. That you just ignore it.

Exactly the point most of us are making.

No matter how much of a turd the hardware is, you'll always get fanboys trying in vain to defend it. I don't know why.

But (a) you can repair them perfectly fine as I’ve done it tens of times and (b) the hardware isn’t a turd and has consistently the best support and customer satisfaction (google it).

Sure you can’t do anything other than FRU replacement sensibly but the whole argument Rossman is leveraging is board level repair which NO ONE DOES because the ROI is stupid. The guy is basically building a business on doing non cost effective repairs on machines that should be scrapped because the customer didn’t factor replacement or insurance costs into ownership. This is being leveraged by the “anti fan boy” lot to drive his viewership up.  It’s insane.

Typical example, I popped the screen on my MBP. Bought a new screen off eBay and installed it myself. Big whoopy doo. It was actually easier than doing my old X201 thinkpad because touring the cables and clipping the screen bezel on that was a nightmare. Took 20 minutes.

Left IO board gone bang (because someone poured coffee in it). £20 and 10 minutes of effort. Meh.

Honestly the amount of crap I see from plastic bodied PCs is worse. Literally no chance of repair because the chassis side of the lid hinge has snapped off etc and no chance of parts being available. That is Acer, Dell, Asus, Samsung etc.

The thing is I don’t see any obstacles to fixing Apple kit myself. No more obstacles than any other vendors. Also the parts availability is much better. How do you fix a weird low value Acer unit which had a sale window of 6 months that no one bought? Who knows what’s inside it. I’ve seen hot snot! Apple, hmm A1278 screen, eBay, sorted.

It’s about the same and most of the arguments are quite frankly stupid and not based in reality.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 07:13:32 am by bd139 »
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Great for you. Now be a typical costumer instead. Ooops, isn't that easy anymore, is it? Dunning-Kruger-much?

Offline bd139

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Great for you. Now be a typical costumer instead. Ooops, isn't that easy anymore, is it? Dunning-Kruger-much?

Typical consumer goes and gets it fixed in Apple store or dodgy dave's shop down the market who gets parts off ebay. This is not rocket science.

Also this isn't the Dunning-Kruger effect because I have higher than average repair ability (check all the forum threads I have on debugging and repairs for a citation)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 07:27:19 am by bd139 »
 

Offline Distelzombie

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You aware of the situation in which this is impossible, right? As demonstrated before.
Now remember what you pay them for this service.

Offline bd139

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You aware of the situation in which this is impossible, right? As demonstrated before.
Now remember what you pay them for this service.

You're talking shit. What happens is someone in a country with poor consumer laws didn't take the insurance option. That's a bad purchase decision. I bet the same people spent 10  years paying off a device with a 5 year lifespan as well. That one is on capitalism, marketing and dumbasses.

In the "no repair" above, you go to your card company and let them fight it out or make an insurance claim.

Edit: and yes I know it’s crap but you couldn’t pull this in the U.K. for example. If they deny repair then you file money claim against them and they sort it or you get the cash back via bailiff. I know this because I did it when I got screwed by toshiba in 2004.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 07:53:52 am by bd139 »
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Well, then it appears we have no problem here, do we? Apple does its thing and it's ok: It's explained by poor consumer laws of the country you live in, capitalism, marketing... Apple is of no fault for abusing the poor consumer laws or capitalism. It's the politicians and the society that is wrong.

Quote
Also this isn't the Dunning-Kruger effect because I have higher than average repair ability (check all the forum threads I have on debugging and repairs for a citation)
It is, I think. You are overestimating the abilities of the general public when you say: "It is repairable, it's fine. Took 20 minutes." Yet they can't even change a hard disk sometimes - when it is actually easy to do so. ("What's a hard disk/SSD?")

Let's get back to the soldered in SSDs: What do you do when they are worn out? What if you want more space INSIDE your mactop? "You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification.

Offline Halcyon

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Let's get back to the soldered in SSDs: What do you do when they are worn out? What if you want more space INSIDE your mactop? "You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification.

Thankfully, by the time the SSD has worn out, the rest of the Macbook would have well and truly had it.
 

Offline bd139

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Well, then it appears we have no problem here, do we? Apple does its thing and it's ok: It's explained by poor consumer laws of the country you live in, capitalism, marketing... Apple is of no fault for abusing the poor consumer laws or capitalism. It's the politicians and the society that is wrong.

Quote
Also this isn't the Dunning-Kruger effect because I have higher than average repair ability (check all the forum threads I have on debugging and repairs for a citation)
It is, I think. You are overestimating the abilities of the general public when you say: "It is repairable, it's fine. Took 20 minutes." Yet they can't even change a hard disk sometimes - when it is actually easy to do so. ("What's a hard disk/SSD?")

Let's get back to the soldered in SSDs: What do you do when they are worn out? What if you want more space INSIDE your mactop? "You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification.

No it's not right but that doesn't mean it isn't the status quo and is specific to Apple. The problem is that as performance increases, by necessity so does integration and the march of technology. Back in the early 1970s, computers were built out of discrete logic ICs. Then came the microprocessor etc. Things got faster and smaller and with closer integration.  Now we have basically minimal SoC with flash attached screwed into a cast or injection moulded chassis with a battery glued in (which is incidentally required because the technology to supply the power density needed is volatile if bent) and a laminated screen. That leaves these FRUs: screen, chassis, battery/power supply, input device. Everything is built like this now from everyone because:

1. It's cost effective.
2. It allows greatest manufacturing automation.
3. It allows the form factors that are in demand.

Really at the current time it isn't worth paying someone who can repair an FRU to deal with it because they're more expensive over time than the FRU's supply cost is. So we're in a FRU swapping business now and have been for at least 20 years now.

As for the soldered in SSDs, have you ever seen an SSD fail from wearing out? We have about 500 of them, some of which are in ridiculously high IOPS servers writing 100's of gigs a day all from Intel and Samsung and ZERO failures ever. You're hanging on to an old way of thinking there I'm afraid. They are crazy reliable. Also the SSD's in the thing are PCI attached jobbies which have quite frankly insane IO speeds.

The only risk really is buying a machine without the capacity to expand to your requirements. That can go good and bad. If you don't buy enough you're screwed and if you buy too much you're down cash. I bought a 16Gb 1TiB SSD MBP in 2013 (which is incidentally still going find and holds 5 hours charge, has enough RAM and disk space).  :-// ... I expected 2 years out of it and then upgrade. Didn't happen.

The main problem is that you have to do some forward thinking and not cheap out. There is no way I'm ever going to need to upgrade the above. If it gives up i'll split it for parts and someone can repair theirs. Ultimately over 5 years it worked out a crap load cheaper than I was expecting. Good job  :-+

People seem to think the only cost of ownership is the outlay though. That's a big problem. Bought a nice shiny BMW on £300/month? Oh no can't afford to run it. Doh, clearly BMW's fault...

Let's get back to the soldered in SSDs: What do you do when they are worn out? What if you want more space INSIDE your mactop? "You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification.

Thankfully, by the time the SSD has worn out, the rest of the Macbook would have well and truly had it.

Yes. That's true!  :-DD

« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 08:57:06 am by bd139 »
 
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Offline wraper

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Let's get back to the soldered in SSDs: What do you do when they are worn out? What if you want more space INSIDE your mactop? "You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification.

Thankfully, by the time the SSD has worn out, the rest of the Macbook would have well and truly had it.
SSDs have enough write endurance to survive any normal workload for decades. When they fail, it's due to other reasons. However motherboard fault in macbooks is a very common failure and once you cannot boot, you cannot get your data out. And if SSD fails, you need to replace a whole motherboard. Modern M.2 SSDs are small enough that soldering SSD on motherboard is ridiculous.

 

Offline wraper

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Quote
Because the SSD and all of the other major system components are soldered to the logic board, and because the Touch Bar is so difficult to remove and replace, the Touch Bar MacBook Pro gets a 1 out of 10 on iFixit's repairability scale, lower than the 2 out of 10 it gave to the $1,499 model. Its glued-in battery and difficult-to-replace display don't help. And as in iDevices, the Touch ID button and the T1 are paired at the factory, so if you replace the button itself or the logic board yourself, the Touch ID sensor will stop working.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/11/touch-bar-mbp-teardown-soldered-ssd-cosmetic-speaker-holes-and-more/
 

Offline bd139

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Touch bar is shit, I'll give you that.
 

Offline Halcyon

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At the end of the day, this thread can go on forever and when Apple inevitably bugger up again, it'll just start over.

I will say this about the Apple fanboys and I specifically mean those who are so brand loyal to the point it makes them blind and deaf. There seems to be this attitude of "I have a Macbook and it's never ever crashed on me and it's perfect and has never had a fault" and so on it goes. To those users I say "good for you". But they are quick to block their ears and go "la-la-la" when Apple produces a poorly designed unit with widespread problems.

No one here is advocating that all Apple products of a certain model will experience the same fault, not even the haters. That would be stupid. I could go out and buy an iPhone 6 tomorrow off ebay and it might never ever have a problem, but the stats are stacked against me.

Set aside the dumb design decisions, the poorly built/put together hardware, their crappy software updates or even the way they treat their customers... what I don't understand is this strong hold Apple have of some of their customers. It's something you seldom see among PC/Android users (and there are many more of them than Apple users).

I've been a PC guy for as long as there have been PCs, but I have used Apple products throughout the years, almost all of them. I've come across some pretty shitty PC's as well, but you know what? I don't keep buying them. I do my homework and pick another brand. I gave up buying brand-name desktop PCs back in primary school, when I learnt to build my own. But as for laptops, tablets and phones, if I come across a brand I don't trust or who produce poor quality products, I don't buy them, even if I've bought them before. I honestly don't care. Right now I have a Dell laptop (and I love Dell), but it has some interesting quirks. My next laptop will probably be a Lenovo. See how that works?

Same goes for my phone, I've owned Sony, LG, Samsung, Blackberry and Motorola smart phones before. There are some I won't buy again.

When it comes time to make a purchase, I buy what's good at the time. I buy from a company who has a track record of reliability and when issues do arise, they fix them, not blame the customer for holding it the wrong way or something equally dumb. Those companies who stand up and can admit when they fucked up get my money, not because their marketing tells me.

For those reasons I've mentioned here are the reasons why I'm yet to spend money on an Apple product. Who knows what will happen in 5-10 years, never say never.
 

Offline Distelzombie

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Well, then it appears we have no problem here, do we? Apple does its thing and it's ok: It's explained by poor consumer laws of the country you live in, capitalism, marketing... Apple is of no fault for abusing the poor consumer laws or capitalism. It's the politicians and the society that is wrong.

Quote
Also this isn't the Dunning-Kruger effect because I have higher than average repair ability (check all the forum threads I have on debugging and repairs for a citation)
It is, I think. You are overestimating the abilities of the general public when you say: "It is repairable, it's fine. Took 20 minutes." Yet they can't even change a hard disk sometimes - when it is actually easy to do so. ("What's a hard disk/SSD?")

Let's get back to the soldered in SSDs: What do you do when they are worn out? What if you want more space INSIDE your mactop? "You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification.

No it's not right but that doesn't mean it isn't the status quo and is specific to Apple. The problem is that as performance increases, by necessity so does integration and the march of technology. Back in the early 1970s, computers were built out of discrete logic ICs. Then came the microprocessor etc. Things got faster and smaller and with closer integration.  Now we have basically minimal SoC with flash attached screwed into a cast or injection moulded chassis with a battery glued in (which is incidentally required because the technology to supply the power density needed is volatile if bent) and a laminated screen. That leaves these FRUs: screen, chassis, battery/power supply, input device. Everything is built like this now from everyone because:

1. It's cost effective.
2. It allows greatest manufacturing automation.
3. It allows the form factors that are in demand.

Really at the current time it isn't worth paying someone who can repair an FRU to deal with it because they're more expensive over time than the FRU's supply cost is. So we're in a FRU swapping business now and have been for at least 20 years now.

As for the soldered in SSDs, have you ever seen an SSD fail from wearing out? We have about 500 of them, some of which are in ridiculously high IOPS servers writing 100's of gigs a day all from Intel and Samsung and ZERO failures ever. You're hanging on to an old way of thinking there I'm afraid. They are crazy reliable. Also the SSD's in the thing are PCI attached jobbies which have quite frankly insane IO speeds.

The only risk really is buying a machine without the capacity to expand to your requirements. That can go good and bad. If you don't buy enough you're screwed and if you buy too much you're down cash. I bought a 16Gb 1TiB SSD MBP in 2013 (which is incidentally still going find and holds 5 hours charge, has enough RAM and disk space).  :-// ... I expected 2 years out of it and then upgrade. Didn't happen.

The main problem is that you have to do some forward thinking and not cheap out. There is no way I'm ever going to need to upgrade the above. If it gives up i'll split it for parts and someone can repair theirs. Ultimately over 5 years it worked out a crap load cheaper than I was expecting. Good job  :-+

People seem to think the only cost of ownership is the outlay though. That's a big problem. Bought a nice shiny BMW on £300/month? Oh no can't afford to run it. Doh, clearly BMW's fault...


Let's deconstruct this:
"No it's not right but that doesn't mean it isn't the status quo and is specific to Apple."
Nobody said that! It's your imagination! It is as I AM SAYING IN LIKE EVERY RESPONSE LATELY: That you are paying comparatively extreme prices for Apples products, that aren't even better than the rest.

"The problem is that as performance increases, by necessity so does integration and the march of technology. ... Now we have basically minimal SoC with flash attached screwed into a cast or injection moulded chassis with a battery glued in (which is incidentally required because the technology to supply the power density needed is volatile if bent) and a laminated screen."
No. Nothing you stated is required by our technological state! They're just design choices you're talking about. E.g. Desktop PCs! You don't need to glue in batteries, you can make them easily detachable. Absolutely no problem. Same with everything else.
Nobody does this anymore because it takes engineering time, extra material and what not to create a mechanism that holds the battery in place or makes anything easily changeable.
They think: "No consumer cares anyway, so why waste money?" <- That is where we are now!

"1. It's cost effective."
Yes. But, I am telling you over and over that you pay comparatively extreme prices for Apples products. I do not have to tell where this money goes because you seem to know that it doesn't go into manufacturing. Good, and bad.

"2. It allows greatest manufacturing automation." *savings
It's all about saving money in the process, nothing else. And again: you pay comparatively extreme prices for Apples products.

"3. It allows the form factors that are in demand." *imagined
There is no real demand for these form factors: The demand for any form factor is imagined by the marketing division.

"Really at the current time it isn't worth paying someone who can repair an FRU to deal with it because they're more expensive over time than the FRU's supply cost is."
You DO realize that is the conclusion of all these issues we have here? -When the money doesn't go into production and engineering quality, but instead into the pockets of the big guys, yes?
 
"The only risk really is buying a machine without the capacity to expand to your requirements..."
... together with: "The main problem is that you have to do some forward thinking and not cheap out."

Are you doing what I was asking you not to do? Mainly: ["You should've bought the biggest option in the first place" is no excuse or justification] for bad engineering.




SSDs ... They are crazy reliable.
Thankfully, by the time the SSD has worn out, the rest of the Macbook would have well and truly had it.
SSDs have enough write endurance to survive any normal workload for decades. When they fail, it's due to other reasons. However motherboard fault in macbooks is a very common failure and once you cannot boot, you cannot get your data out. And if SSD fails, you need to replace a whole motherboard. Modern M.2 SSDs are small enough that soldering SSD on motherboard is ridiculous.
Ok, I was wrong. I thought that could happen earlier.
Yet, that was my point: What if anything fails when everything is soldered together? FRU? Too costly in this case.




At the end of the day, this thread can go on forever and when Apple inevitably bugger up again, it'll just start over.

I will say this about the Apple fanboys and I specifically mean those who are so brand loyal to the point it makes them blind and deaf. There seems to be this attitude of "I have a Macbook and it's never ever crashed on me and it's perfect and has never had a fault" and so on it goes. To those users I say "good for you". But they are quick to block their ears and go "la-la-la" when Apple produces a poorly designed unit with widespread problems.

No one here is advocating that all Apple products of a certain model will experience the same fault, not even the haters. That would be stupid. I could go out and buy an iPhone 6 tomorrow off ebay and it might never ever have a problem, but the stats are stacked against me.

Set aside the dumb design decisions, the poorly built/put together hardware, their crappy software updates or even the way they treat their customers... what I don't understand is this strong hold Apple have of some of their customers. It's something you seldom see among PC/Android users (and there are many more of them than Apple users).

I've been a PC guy for as long as there have been PCs, but I have used Apple products throughout the years, almost all of them. I've come across some pretty shitty PC's as well, but you know what? I don't keep buying them. I do my homework and pick another brand. I gave up buying brand-name desktop PCs back in primary school, when I learnt to build my own. But as for laptops, tablets and phones, if I come across a brand I don't trust or who produce poor quality products, I don't buy them, even if I've bought them before. I honestly don't care. Right now I have a Dell laptop (and I love Dell), but it has some interesting quirks. My next laptop will probably be a Lenovo. See how that works?

Same goes for my phone, I've owned Sony, LG, Samsung, Blackberry and Motorola smart phones before. There are some I won't buy again.

When it comes time to make a purchase, I buy what's good at the time. I buy from a company who has a track record of reliability and when issues do arise, they fix them, not blame the customer for holding it the wrong way or something equally dumb. Those companies who stand up and can admit when they fucked up get my money, not because their marketing tells me.

For those reasons I've mentioned here are the reasons why I'm yet to spend money on an Apple product. Who knows what will happen in 5-10 years, never say never.
Aaah, a view of sunshine! I was lost in the mist. (That's funny because "mist" is also a german word for crap, rubbish, bullshit ...)
As I love to point out logic fallacies or cognitive biases lately, (In this case the Apple-guys fallcies) here we go:

"There seems to be this attitude of "I have a Macbook and it's never ever crashed on me and it's perfect and has never had a fault" and so on it goes. "
Optimism bias or Normalcy bias

"But they are quick to block their ears and go "la-la-la" when Apple produces a poorly designed unit with widespread problems."
Confirmation bias, probably Appeal to novelty evolving into Appeal to tradition

"When it comes time to make a purchase, I buy what's good at the time. I buy from a company who has a track record of reliability and when issues do arise, they fix them, not blame the customer for holding it the wrong way or something equally dumb."
Called "perfect reasoning"
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 11:33:17 pm by Distelzombie »
 

Offline MT

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