Why is it the more I read the EEVblog forum, my expectations of Apple keeps...

[rsjsouza]

Distelzombie and Halcyon got a lot right. In these discussions I usually see a cognitive dissonance between the defenders of business practices and design choices of the preferred brand (Apple in this case) and the criticisms to the "others" (Microsoft, Samsung and others).

Despite the complaints from users that couldn't repair their products back in the 1980's, the miniaturization evolved so much that manufacturers did this in the name of innovation (Dave's non-repairable credit card sized calculator is an example).
A similar thing used to happen with cellphones and smartphones in their early days: the integration was so massive that repairability suffered - although at that time the advanced techniques and equipment were still very far from Joe garage's repair shop. Nowadays, where these are much more widely available and the innovation gap is become narrower and narrower, it is quite frustrating to see companies such as Apple trying to stonewall a customer's right to repair his product anywhere he wants (Apple official stores and repair shops do not exist everywhere where they sell their products).

The innovation can sometimes create captive markets that are abused by shady business practices. One example is the preposterous association between Microsoft and Intel in the 1990s, which secured a massive market à guise of innovation - although at that time there were  massive investments in semiconductor manufacturing processes which brought this market to a plateau in the late 2000s. Apple tends to do the same with their products: they created a significant captive market with high investments in usability and design but now give their loyal users no choice other than gobble up their design and business decisions - and the innovation gap is not there anymore, both in mobile and laptops.

It is inexplicable why, in the current day and age of laptops, Apple decides to almost completely pot their flagship product - that is quite frustrating given the reasons shown by distelzombie: the innovation factor is almost non-existent to justify this, given they use bog standard computer parts. Other manufacturers that feature similar mechanical and performance features do not resort to such measures.

Also, the strawman argument that Apple is put to higher standards thus they receive so much extra attention: Samsung did not have it easy when they released the S6 with its inability to add memory or replace battery. Or the S7 Note and its exploding batteries. LG had a hard time trying to justify their modular phone G5. In all these cases, customers simply moved away from the brand as they have a choice of other brands with similar interface. Even Microsoft and their Windows Phone incarnations had more than one brand using it.

[Distelzombie]

Let's reality-check Apples pricing for once:

Building a Hackintosh is getting easier and easier.
https://hackintosh.com/

Here's how you make your Lenovo Y50 or Y70 Touch a hackintosh:
https://www.tonymacx86.com/threads/guide-lenovo-y50-uhd-or-1080p-using-clover-uefi.232960/

Here's how easy it is to change the battery, for example:
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+Y50-70+Touch+Battery+Replacement/36853

Here's a comparison between Apple Macbook Pros (I guess not the top of the line) and those Lenovos:
https://www.gadgetsnow.com/compare-laptops/Apple-MacBook-Pro-MLW72HNA-Laptop-vs-Lenovo-Y50-70-vs-Lenovo-Ideapad-Y700-80NV0028US-Laptop-Core-i7-6th-Gen16-GB1-TBWindows-104-GB-vs-Apple-MacBook-Pro-MJLT2HNA-Laptop
I can't find a direct comparison between the Lenovo and MPTT2LL/A.
Let's compare both manually:
Apple: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-15-2017-2-9-GHz-560.248070.0.html
In this configuration: new today - € 2.830,00

Lenovo: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Y50-70-GTX-960M-4K-Notebook-Review.145340.0.html
In this configuration: new 2015 - € 1.499,00 (Let's just say half) new today - $ 1.325 or € 1.094,52. (Let's just say two fifth)

Benchmarks
Cinebench R15 CPU Single 64Bit
160 Points (First is always apple)
135 Points (Second is always Lenovo)
Cinebench R15 CPU Multi 64Bit
630 Points
517 Points
PCMark 8 - Home Score Accelerated v2
3819 (min: 3816, max: 3827) Points
2554 Points
3DMark 11 - 1280x720 Performance
5718 (min: 5700, max: 6839) Points
5444 Points
3DMark 1920x1080 Fire Strike Score
3576 (min: 3566, max: 3578) Points
3907 Points
3DMark 1280x720 Cloud Gate Standard Score
15047 (min: 15036, max: 16015) Points
13326 Points

Very similiar already. But:
Be aware that the Lenovo has deactivates CPU Turbo in multi-thread applications due to thermals. If you improve the cooling (Like, with liquid metal thermal paste) you can activate it with Throttlestop. That would bring a huge boost to those numbers up there - and probably make it beat the Macbook.
Macbook also thermo- and power-throttles. You can mitigate the thermo-throttling, but not power-throttling.
Also the Radeon Pro 555 version of the apple Macbook right off the bat worse in GPU scores, while still costing double of the lenovo.

But what about the downsides of using a Hackintosh instead of building one? Just read this from MacWorld website about Hackintoshs downsides: https://www.macworld.com/article/3201034/macs/hackintosh-should-you-build-one.html
They could only come up with one actual downside. The rest ist just: "I need to come up with something, arg"- squeezing the fingers. If you know what I mean. Just postpone the update until find out if it is working, or if not, until you find a fix.


Conclusion: You could get the same Software (Mac OS or whatever), better or actual maintainability, potentially the same Speed, interchangeable double-sized SSD, half battery life, half as good screen - but 4k for two fifth of the price.
If even MacWorld couldn't come up with more than one good reason not to build a Hackintosh, you are making an idiot out of yourself for paying their prices!
*EVEN BIGGER SENTENCE*

[BradC]

If even MacWorld couldn't come up with more than one good reason not to build a Hackintosh, you are making an idiot out of yourself for paying their prices![/size][/b]

Legality.

[Mr. Scram]

Dangerous. Failure rates suddenly increase after 5 years. You might start losing tens of them.  Then you don’t have the capex to replace. This is how not to run an IT department.

Exactly the point most of us are making.


But (a) you can repair them perfectly fine as I’ve done it tens of times and (b) the hardware isn’t a turd and has consistently the best support and customer satisfaction (google it).

Sure you can’t do anything other than FRU replacement sensibly but the whole argument Rossman is leveraging is board level repair which NO ONE DOES because the ROI is stupid. The guy is basically building a business on doing non cost effective repairs on machines that should be scrapped because the customer didn’t factor replacement or insurance costs into ownership. This is being leveraged by the “anti fan boy” lot to drive his viewership up.  It’s insane.

Typical example, I popped the screen on my MBP. Bought a new screen off eBay and installed it myself. Big whoopy doo. It was actually easier than doing my old X201 thinkpad because touring the cables and clipping the screen bezel on that was a nightmare. Took 20 minutes.

Left IO board gone bang (because someone poured coffee in it). £20 and 10 minutes of effort. Meh.

Honestly the amount of crap I see from plastic bodied PCs is worse. Literally no chance of repair because the chassis side of the lid hinge has snapped off etc and no chance of parts being available. That is Acer, Dell, Asus, Samsung etc.

The thing is I don’t see any obstacles to fixing Apple kit myself. No more obstacles than any other vendors. Also the parts availability is much better. How do you fix a weird low value Acer unit which had a sale window of 6 months that no one bought? Who knows what’s inside it. I’ve seen hot snot! Apple, hmm A1278 screen, eBay, sorted.

It’s about the same and most of the arguments are quite frankly stupid and not based in reality.

We know about bathtub curves too. Accounted for and taken care of.

[glarsson]

Conclusion: You could get the same Software (Mac OS or whatever), better or actual maintainability, potentially the same Speed, interchangeable double-sized SSD, half battery life, half as good screen - but 4k for two fifth of the price.

You can only do it by stealing Mac OS. If theft is acceptable then you can get a lot of things cheap.

[BrianHG]

Conclusion: You could get the same Software (Mac OS or whatever), better or actual maintainability, potentially the same Speed, interchangeable double-sized SSD, half battery life, half as good screen - but 4k for two fifth of the price.

You can only do it by stealing Mac OS. If theft is acceptable then you can get a lot of things cheap.

Legality wise, what constitutes a legal copy of Mac OS.  I mean, what if you bought a 3 year old bottom end mac, legally updated it's OS, ripped out the HD & put it in a modern compatible PC frame.  Toss the old Mac in the garbage.  No theft of OS.  Just updated the video drivers from Nvidia's website and it worked.  Is this theft of the OS?

[glarsson]

Is this theft of the OS?

Yes. Paragraph 2 of the license says:

This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time.

[BradC]

Is this theft of the OS?

It is contrary to the terms and conditions in the license agreement, so it is certainly in breach of Apples copyright.
Remember, to run OSX on a Non-Apple computer you must be "illegally" copying the key-string that resides in the SMC on each Apple machine.

[BrianHG]

Is this theft of the OS?

Yes. Paragraph 2 of the license says:

This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time.

OK, I take the apple label, with serial number and Apple logo from the MAC and place it on the PC.  It is now an Apple-labeled computer with proof of serial number.  I also remove that key-string IC and place it in the PC.  Not a copy, but, the original.

[Halcyon]

Is this theft of the OS?

It is contrary to the terms and conditions in the license agreement, so it is certainly in breach of Apples copyright.

Don't forget, EULAs and completely different from Copyright Law. Just because you breach a licensing agreement, doesn't necessarily mean your breaching the Copyright Act or any other law for that matter. There have been many cases where EULAs have been deemed to be "unfair" and invalid. EULA's aren't worth anything until a court says they are, most of them are untested.

[glarsson]

It doesn't matter if the license is fair or not. The problem us comparing the cost of product A and product B and arguing that A is too expensive because you can build product B cheaply by stealing parts from A.

[NiHaoMike]

It doesn't matter if the license is fair or not. The problem us comparing the cost of product A and product B and arguing that A is too expensive because you can build product B cheaply by stealing parts from A.

What about buying an old Mac for cheap (doesn't even have to work) and "upgrading" it using PC parts?

[Halcyon]

It doesn't matter if the license is fair or not. The problem us comparing the cost of product A and product B and arguing that A is too expensive because you can build product B cheaply by stealing parts from A.

As far as I'm concerned, if I bought a product, it's mine to do anything I want with in my own home. No one will convince me otherwise.

[filssavi]

So finally we uncovered the true objection to apple products, they are expensive

To that I say

First it's my hard earned money  and I spend them as I damn well see fit, you have no say about it

Second:
     do you own a watch more expensive than a 25$ CASIO? because if you do so are a [insert whatever insult you use with apple customers here], the casio works just fine and it's cheaper
     do you own designer clothes? because if do so you are a [insert whatever insult you use with apple customers here], no name brand clothes works just fine and they are cheaper
     do you own an expensive car? because if you do so are a [insert whatever insult you use with apple customers here], a cheap city car works just fine and it's cheaper
     do you eat at expensive resturants?  because if you do so are a [insert whatever insult you use with apple customers here], a home cooked meal feeds just as much and it's much cheaper
     do you smoke?

and so on, bottom line there are countless  things you might like to spend money on that I find stupid, but since what you like doing is none of my business I just don't lecture you on how stubid, dumb, etc you are....

[glarsson]

As far as I'm concerned, if I bought a product, it's mine to do anything I want with in my own home. No one will convince me otherwise.

Modifying a licensed radio transmitter?
Changing a semi automatic rifle into a fully automatic rifle?

Still doesn't matter as we are comparing the cost of two products.

[bd139]

A point people forget about the baseline cost of a Mac is you’re paying for the 100% non advertising subsidised iCloud (groupware, ignore the file storage), support, apps that come with it and the fact that the OS isn’t graded into “what version can you afford?” Structures.

These are all paid extras on Windows. Windows 10 pro upgrade +3 years of office 365 has to be factored into the price now. The built in stuff in windows 10 just doesn’t work properly either.

[BrianHG]

So finally we uncovered the true objection to apple products, they are expensive

To that I say

First it's my hard earned money  and I spend them as I damn well see fit, you have no say about it

This is not the sediment of everyone here, just what has echoed over the previous 2 pages of this thread.

I started this thread to decide, asking, if choosing Apple Macs for my business I was setting up would be a wise decision over the next 10 years.  Differences in price of hardware is actually minor compared to the salary of my 75+ employees if Apple trends further their activities of their Mac if even a % of my workforce ends up sitting and twiddling their thumbs for a day, or, worse, if the product line I become reliant on 9 years from now is no longer made.

[bd139]

That's not a function of the choice of technology but your BCP / DR strategy.

[BrianHG]

Modifying a licensed radio transmitter?

Broadcasting is controlled under federal communications act.  Radio waves leave your home & for example, we don't want to endanger lives by blanking out important broadcasts like interfering with aviation navigation.

Changing a semi automatic rifle into a fully automatic rifle?

Creating and using human assault weapons of war are also under federal restrictive controls.

[BrianHG]

That's not a function of the choice of technology but your BCP / DR strategy.

Business continuity planning for my business based on Apple changing their technology once again, like CPU & OS for a new CPU at some time soon, maybe, means I must program my specific editing tools with that in mind.  So, yes, disaster recovery, which is guaranteed to happen to at least a % of hardware over 10 years means I will be making a choice on technology, and it wont be Macs.

[Halcyon]

As far as I'm concerned, if I bought a product, it's mine to do anything I want with in my own home. No one will convince me otherwise.

Modifying a licensed radio transmitter?
Changing a semi automatic rifle into a fully automatic rifle?

Still doesn't matter as we are comparing the cost of two products.

Completely irrelevant. Let me spell it out in greater detail for those that didn't get it:

If I buy a consumer product, software, music, movies etc... as far as I'm concerned it's mine to do anything I want with, in my own home, provided it has no impact on others.

For computer hardware, that means modifying it in any way I want.
For software, it's using them on whatever computer I choose, for as long as I choose to, or making backup copies for myself.
For music, to make copies into any format I like so I can listen to it where ever and whenever I like...
... and so on...

It doesn't matter if I didn't create it or hold the copyright for it, I purchased it, I own it. The terms and manner in which I choose to use it are entirely mine. I don't care if you don't agree, it won't stop me from doing what I want with my possessions.

[glarsson]

This is your own fake reality. In the real world you don't own everything you "buy". You can't, as an example, show a movie to paying customers even if you do it in your own home. Also, you can't install a transmitter and broadcast the music you "bought".

[Mr. Scram]

This is your own fake reality. In the real world you don't own everything you "buy". You can't, as an example, show a movie to paying customers even if you do it in your own home. Also, you can't install a transmitter and broadcast the music you "bought".

Both examples involve a third party. Halcyon's example doesn't appear to do the same.

[glarsson]

You don't own the music, the film or the software (Mac OS). You only bought a license to use them – with conditions and limitations.

[Halcyon]

You don't own the music, the film or the software (Mac OS). You only bought a license to use them – with conditions and limitations.

I couldn't care less.

This is your own fake reality. In the real world you don't own everything you "buy". You can't, as an example, show a movie to paying customers even if you do it in your own home. Also, you can't install a transmitter and broadcast the music you "bought".

Both examples involve a third party. Halcyon's example doesn't appear to do the same.

Correct Mr. Scram.

Glarsson, you'll also notice in all my examples, I don't involve anyone else, I used the words "my" and "I" and I specifically said provided it has no impact on others. Publicly screening a film in my own home is impacting others.

If you want to read, agree and self-enforce every EULA, then be my guest. I don't bother. What I've described is far from a fake reality. It's the reality I live every single day and I haven't broken any Australian laws yet. It's what a reasonable consumer would consider reasonable private use.