Why SpaceX Are Going to Beat NASA to Mars

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

In some cases industry just needed deep pockets to pursue a project that they otherwise couldn't see the profit in doing. Take a look at the history of the IC.

Would you go as far as saying that we wouldn't have ICs if it were not for NASA?

[Eka]

In some cases industry just needed deep pockets to pursue a project that they otherwise couldn't see the profit in doing. Take a look at the history of the IC.

Would you go as far as saying that we wouldn't have ICs if it were not for NASA?

No, but it is the feeling of many that they would have not come as early as they did.

[tszaboo]

Yep, and this will be the huge test, when someone dies in a Space-X mission (it's probably inevitable).
And let's hope that Space-X is profitable, because if it's run like Tesla, then the wheels might eventually fall off the billy cart just because of that. Although I suspect NASA and hence the government won't let that happen.
Musk isn't that rich that he can fund Mars mission on his own, the company has to fund all this mars stuff through the profitable missions.
No bucks, no buck rogers.
So if/when a human accident happens, that will put a huge halt to things for a long time at the very least. There won't be any "beat the ruskies" 60's era go-fever to help it.

No, in a few years it will be " beat the Chinese to Mars" space race.
Meanwhile in Europe, we spend 3.7 Billion Euro on ESA. This is 0.05% of the EU28 national budgets. Good job Europe, you will make some meaningful contribution to space flight in no time.

[In Vacuo Veritas]

I don't understand this geek fascination with space. It's a dead end, no one's going anywhere. Deal with it.

[MT]

That Canadian space guy who played and sang David Bowie major Tom in ISS said that few of them astronauts would
on free will be passenger on Musks rocket to mars as it looks now and a part into future. I can assume he had
very good reasons.

Heey! yet another opportunity to hate Musk or arselick Musk, your choice!

[Brumby]

I don't understand this geek fascination with space.

It's not just a geek thing, regular people are interested too.  The fact that you don't understand is something that I feel lessens your experience in life.  I'm not saying you need to share their fascination, but making a bit of an effort to understand it is, IMHO, invaluable.  I don't understand people who collect string - but I accept they find interest in it.

It's a dead end

Hardly - but I suppose it depends on what you see the objectives are.

no one's going anywhere.

I find that rather mediaeval thinking.

Deal with it.

I could say the same.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

[wraper]

And what is the point posting that? Nobody besides SpaceX made a real rocket that can place a payload into orbit and can vertically land. When you see F9 booster landing, it may not look so big but it's as high as 14 story building.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

And let's hope that Space-X is profitable, because if it's run like Tesla, then the wheels might eventually fall off the billy cart just because of that. Although I suspect NASA and hence the government won't let that happen.

Companies designed to suck public money need not be profitable to survive.

https://ideapod.com/elon-musks-business-empire-fueled-4-9-billion-government-subsidies-businesses-self-sustainable/

[wraper]

And let's hope that Space-X is profitable, because if it's run like Tesla, then the wheels might eventually fall off the billy cart just because of that. Although I suspect NASA and hence the government won't let that happen.

Companies designed to suck public money don't have to be profitable to survive.

https://ideapod.com/elon-musks-business-empire-fueled-4-9-billion-government-subsidies-businesses-self-sustainable/

Except this has nothing to do with SpaceX and Tesla did not receive any of that as money. Having reduced tax is not the same as sucking taxpayer money. Also a very large part of that figure is over next 10-20 years, thus not that significant if you look at it annually.

[Koen]

I wonder which one of Musk or GeorgeOfTheJungle will run out of steam first.

[EEVblog]

That Canadian space guy who played and sang David Bowie major Tom

I recorded a video of Chris Hadfield singing that live

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Except [..] Tesla did not receive any of that as money.

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/if-tesla-is-worth-more-than-gm-why-are-taxpayers-still-subsidizing-it/

For every Tesla car sold (up to No. 200,000), federal taxpayers kick in $7,500 to lower the costs. State taxpayers in a multitude of states pony up still more. In Colorado, they contribute another $5,000 to the electric car kitty, in California, it's $2,500.

When the Los Angeles Times crunched the numbers two years ago, it found that Tesla buyers had received more than $284 million in federal tax incentives and more than $38 million in California rebates. And that was before Tesla's banner 2016 year.

The taxpayer help only starts there. Tesla also collects hundreds of millions from competing automakers by selling environmental credits in California and more than half a dozen other states to car companies that can't meet the states' "zero emissions" sales mandates.

Plus, Nevada ponied up $1.3 billion in incentives to convince Tesla to build its huge battery factory near Reno.

And this doesn't include the fact that electric car owners don't pay into the Highway Trust Fund — which is funded by the per-gallon tax on gasoline and pays for road construction and upkeep.
[..]
That is a lot of welfare-for-the-rich for very little environmental benefit.

That's for the US, but it's ~ the same all over the rest of the world.

Meanwhile, he's also planning to offshore Model Y and Model 3 production out of the States, to China:
https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-shanghai-tesla-gigafactory-china-500k-production/

"Dear US taxpayers, thank you very much for your hard earned money, and fuck you. Signed Elon Musk."

Sorry for the off topic.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

And what is the point posting that?

A bit of history of rocketry, just for your info.

[wraper]

None of that rebuffs what I said. Any other EV buyer also gets tax credit. Tesla actually is in disadvantage there because of the largest amount of electric cars produced. Tax credit for Tesla purchase gets reduced and soon will be gone. https://www.engadget.com/2018/07/12/tesla-ev-tax-credit/  Of course they want factory in China which is the largest market for EVs and has 40% import duty on american cars (was 25% before trade war). Also please go away with your chronic EV butthurt, this thread is about space, not cars.

Except [..] Tesla did not receive any of that as money.

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/if-tesla-is-worth-more-than-gm-why-are-taxpayers-still-subsidizing-it/
...

[MT]

None of that rebuffs what I said.  Except [..] Tesla did not receive any of that as money.

To an extent it does!

https://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2018/02/02/is_spacex_wasting_taxpayer_dollars_110494.html

Qoute:
It is dumbfounding that more questions aren’t being asked about SpaceX. Despite the government’s knowledge of systemic deficiencies with SpaceX rockets and systems, it continues to contract with them, putting billions of taxpayer dollars in the hands of an unreliable company. The government should release the details of SpaceX’s recent failed launch to the public. The taxpayers deserve greater transparency and reassurance that our money is not funding celebrity companies while compromising national security and fiscal responsibility.

[StillTrying]

I think the UK will beat both NASA and SpaceX to Mars, just as soon as we've collected enough cardboard boxes and rubber bands to build our £2.5m 3 space ports. 

[wraper]

systemic deficiencies with SpaceX rockets and systems

That's some BS reporting. Systemic deficiencies, do they dare to show them?
ULA $400 million per single launch + $1 billion in subsidies annually for doing nothing is much better I guess.

[wraper]

None of that rebuffs what I said.  Except [..] Tesla did not receive any of that as money.

To an extent it does!

https://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2018/02/02/is_spacex_wasting_taxpayer_dollars_110494.html

Yep, let's not differentiate between SpaceX and Tesla  . Supposedly it does not matter they are 2 separate companies. What I said about Tesla is about Tesla. What I said about SpaceX is about SpaceX. Very nice to take a quote about Tesla and rebuff it with low quality reporting about SpaceX. I read more of it, they mentioned and linked NASA report about non-conformities. A little issue with that, they forgot to mention that ULA was not any better.

[MT]

None is rebuffing anything,,, well maybe you do, point are no matter Tesla,Musk, Spacex, ULA, Kaddafi, King Kong, NASA, they all para siting on taxpayers money one way or the other, you just dont what to see or hear that......as an Musk fan boi!

[CatalinaWOW]

None is rebuffing anything,,, well maybe you do, point are no matter Tesla,Musk, Spacex, ULA, Kaddafi, King Kong, NASA, they all para siting on taxpayers money one way or the other, you just dont what to see or hear that......as an Musk fan boi!

In one sense you are right, but in that sense you left some off like ESA, Arianespace, BAE and others.  Along with everyone using one of the satellite location services like GPS.

In another sense you are wrong.  People are making (and or saving) money with comsats, earth observation, satellite TV, and others.  And those people are paying for launch services and space vehicles.  Are those subsidized through launch facilities and other things.  Sure.  Just like the roads you drive your car on.

If using roads, postal services, libraries and other similar public facilities makes you a parasite, call me a happy parasite.

[james_s]

NASA's budget is absolutely tiny in the grand scheme of things, it's no wonder they haven't undertaken anything really monumental in a long time.

I think space is fascinating, but unlike many I'm not so enamored by the idea of sending people to Mars. Even under the best conditions, it's a less hospitable and far more isolated environment than the most climate-extreme, desolate "corners" of the Earth. What exactly is someone who goes there going to do? I suspect the novelty of being on another planet will wear off pretty quickly once they get there. If an emergency occurs, they are on their own, even if we were to send them needed supplies it would take months for them to get there.

I would be more interested in sending unmanned robotic probes to more places. It's much cheaper and less risky, and we can send them to far more places, learning much more than we can by putting a human on Mars. Exploration can be mechanized and automated, the only reason to send a human there is because we can.

[MT]

None is rebuffing anything,,, well maybe you do, point are no matter Tesla,Musk, Spacex, ULA, Kaddafi, King Kong, NASA, they all para siting on taxpayers money one way or the other, you just dont what to see or hear that......as an Musk fan boi!

In one sense you are right, but in that sense you left some off like ESA, Arianespace, BAE and others.  Along with everyone using one of the satellite location services like GPS.

In another sense you are wrong.  People are making (and or saving) money with comsats, earth observation, satellite TV, and others.  And those people are paying for launch services and space vehicles.  Are those subsidized through launch facilities and other things.  Sure.  Just like the roads you drive your car on.

If using roads, postal services, libraries and other similar public facilities makes you a parasite, call me a happy parasite.

Bottom line is perhaps from the very start it was tax money who enabled the whole hoopla! Saving money is a very relative issue. Your a happy parasite as long as tax money is used for  postal services, libraries and other similar public facilities , here for example they are mismanaging the hospital system vaste'ing tax payers money, so im not even enable to parasite! No and i dont want the American system thankyvery much! I dont mind space but thinks the crap on earth should be fixed first!

But im surprised an american actually talking about government payd public benefits, thats socialism!

[james_s]

People love to argue about the little stuff, but if you look at where American taxpayer money ends up (I say American because that's where I live and what I'm familiar with, not because I'm not aware other countries exist) our military expenditures absolutely dwarf everything else. NASA, the cost of healthcare, the cost of college education, and even smaller, even more hot button issues like welfare, that's all peanuts compared to what we spend on military. That's not to say I don't support our soldiers but come on, if there's fat to trim that's the place to look! I'd like to stop blowing up other places for a bit and focus on home.

[rdl]

At the risk of repeating myself:

NASA's entire 2018 budget is under $20 billion which is less than 0.5% of the total federal budget. The Department of Defense burns through that much money in less than two weeks.

The money spent by NASA on space exploration is a drop in the bucket when compared to the entire US federal budget and it's probably worth it for the entertainment value alone.