Author Topic: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans  (Read 28670 times)

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Offline VK3DRB

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Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« on: July 25, 2015, 10:23:44 am »
It would be useful to record any successes/failures with Windows 10 working on your legacy software. This will help others in making the decision whether to upgrade or not. Microsoft does test for compatibility for a lot of "secular" software like Word, Excel, Grand Theft Auto 5 etc, but I doubt they will test it with electronic engineering/enthusiast software.

Software related to electronics, such as:

Altium
Diptrace
Saturn PCB Toolkit
Eagle
MPLAB
Codevision/AVR
WinAVR
JTAG programmers
USB-RS232 converters
FPGA tools
etc...

I was caught out some years ago upgrading form Win XP to Win 7 64 bit... Canon laser printer  :--, Microsoft's (Sysinternals) Procmon  :-// and a TV dongle :palm:.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 11:20:09 am by VK3DRB »
 

Online tech5940

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2015, 11:00:11 am »
Great idea!  I'm excited to get rid of 8.1 but worried about compatibility issues with Windows 10. 


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Offline XOIIO

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2015, 09:18:50 pm »
I got a couple modifications for windows 8.1, first being aero glass and second being a start menu mod, which cost around five bucks or so, and I'm loving windows 8.1, I got those mod maybe 8 hours into my new laptop, probably a lot less. It makes it way, way better.

I did reserve an upgrade of windows 10 but I'm going to hold off until I see if there are issues.

Offline Mechanical Menace

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2015, 03:31:39 am »
Microsoft does test for compatibility for a lot of "secular" software like Word, Excel, Grand Theft Auto 5 etc, but I doubt they will test it with electronic engineering/enthusiast software.

While I do get and appreciate the point of the topic I think placing the emphasis to fix these things on MS* isn't fair, especially given how much work they do actually put into backwards compatibility even when the devs have done "naught things" with their code. I personally wouldn't go that far. The most I'd do is have a warning dialogue come up saying something along the lines of "This program is raping our APIs, future bugfixes to Windows may cause the program to behave unpredictably. Please contact the developers and request they get their act together."


*And I'm hardly a fan of MS lol.
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Offline kingofkya

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2015, 03:42:51 am »
7 to 8 and 10 is not really a big jump api wise.

Now driver signing requirement on 8 and 10 thats what will get you.

The big jump on xp to 7 that people got caught on is the 16bit compatablity layer that was almost entirety removed.
 

Offline gaijin

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2015, 04:32:30 am »
I'm not going to move from Windows 7 until I'm sure everything is stable for what I am using it for.

FTDI USB-COM232PLUS4 worked without any issues with the Windows 8.1 driver.
Keysight IO libraries and BenchView seemed to work with 34461a over ethernet
and a couple E3646As over the above USB to RS232 converter.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2015, 04:43:49 am »
Microsoft does test for compatibility for a lot of "secular" software like Word, Excel, Grand Theft Auto 5 etc, but I doubt they will test it with electronic engineering/enthusiast software.

While I do get and appreciate the point of the topic I think placing the emphasis to fix these things on MS* isn't fair, especially given how much work they do actually put into backwards compatibility even when the devs have done "naught things" with their code. I personally wouldn't go that far. The most I'd do is have a warning dialogue come up saying something along the lines of "This program is raping our APIs, future bugfixes to Windows may cause the program to behave unpredictably. Please contact the developers and request they get their act together."


*And I'm hardly a fan of MS lol.

This thread can be valuable without assigning blame.  As a user, I don't care.  I just don't want to have to buy new software, learn new software, buy new hardware and or keep tons of old gear around so that I can keep something running.   

On a non-blame note, for our small market products, Microsoft has little incentive to make windows compatible with our favorite bits of code.  The vendors of those code bits are the ones with the incentive, and reports of incompatibility may help keeping that pressure on.
 

Offline codeboy2k

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2015, 06:19:53 am »
Windows 10 is pretty good, I've got the pre-release running in a VM.  I haven't tried all the software yet, but I don't expect the software to fail.  What might fail is the device drivers needed for dongles or programmers.

As pointed out by @kingofkya, drivers need to be signed now.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2015, 06:36:26 am »
Windows 10 is pretty good, I've got the pre-release running in a VM.  I haven't tried all the software yet, but I don't expect the software to fail.  What might fail is the device drivers needed for dongles or programmers.

As pointed out by @kingofkya, drivers need to be signed now.

The 10 release tried from three or so weeks ago on a couple of machines at my clients' on their request (used for remote access) were an unmitigated disaster. They barely installed, let alone getting as far as being authenticated by the remote access infrastructure.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2015, 06:41:31 am »
What might fail is the device drivers needed for dongles or programmers.

As pointed out by @kingofkya, drivers need to be signed now.
On x64 versions, drivers need to be signed since Vista. And if you want to use more than 3GB of RAM (any modern computer in other words) then you didn't have a choice anyway.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 08:29:10 am by wraper »
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2015, 06:21:37 pm »
I run a Panasonic CF19 Toughbook and many of the special drivers for that are unsigned a window pops up when installing them but Windows 7 64 bit still allows me to install them, all 34 all of which have to be installed in the right order for them to work correctly. I reserved W10 for it but Windows say that some of the hardware is not compatible thing like the digitiser screen the GPRS card and GPS apparently wont work, so I might well skip W10 on that laptop for now. Trouble is a new one costs several thousand pounds so I will keep running 7 until the machine breaks or longer, security wise I see no problem after all most security software still supports XP so even if Microsoft pulls the plug on 7 it will still be of use for some years after that especially if I don't keep bank details on the computer which is something I don't do anyway I will never bank on line as the banks hold the customer responsible for any loses however they occurred go to the counter for cash if they lose your money then they have to replace it.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2015, 06:41:46 pm »
I run a Panasonic CF19 Toughbook and many of the special drivers for that are unsigned a window pops up when installing them but Windows 7 64 bit still allows me to install them
If they are really unsigned, regardless if they seem to be installed, windows 7 x64 won't load them unless you force it to do so. But then again, if you force to load unsigned drivers, you will see "Test mode" mark in the low right corner of the screen. That mark can be disabled too, but IIRC the method I tried didn't work on my PC.
 

Offline Mechanical Menace

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2015, 07:25:47 pm »
If they are really unsigned, regardless if they seem to be installed, windows 7 x64 won't load them unless you force it to do so. But then again, if you force to load unsigned drivers, you will see "Test mode" mark in the low right corner of the screen.

I just need to install them in safe mode, never had "Test Mode" come up afterwards. And the driver in question definitely installed and loaded as without I have no sound at all on any version of Windows.
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Online wraper

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2015, 07:33:04 pm »
If they are really unsigned, regardless if they seem to be installed, windows 7 x64 won't load them unless you force it to do so. But then again, if you force to load unsigned drivers, you will see "Test mode" mark in the low right corner of the screen.

I just need to install them in safe mode, never had "Test Mode" come up afterwards. And the driver in question definitely installed and loaded as without I have no sound at all on any version of Windows.
Then they were not unsigned or your OS isn't x64. You can install them as many times as you like but they just won't load on booting. https://www.raymond.cc/blog/loading-unsigned-drivers-in-windows-7-and-vista-64-bit-x64/
Quote
After enabling Test Mode using one of the above options, you will notice that there is a watermark above the clock at the bottom right of the screen saying “Test Mode, Windows **, Build ****”.
Windows 7 test mode watermark
That is normal after you’ve used Driver Signature Enforcement Overrider, BCDEdit or OpenFilesView64 to enable the Test Mode. If you disable Test Mode again, you won’t be able to load the unsigned drivers. In short, you will need to be in Test Mode in order to load the unsigned drivers.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 07:37:21 pm by wraper »
 

Offline nfmax

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2015, 08:08:40 pm »
Has anyone tried Agilent/Keysight BenchLink Data Logger 3 on W10? I need to drive my 34970A over GPIB using a 82357B and the Keysight IO libraries (17.1 or whatever the latest version is)
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2015, 10:10:07 pm »
I run a Panasonic CF19 Toughbook and many of the special drivers for that are unsigned a window pops up when installing them but Windows 7 64 bit still allows me to install them
If they are really unsigned, regardless if they seem to be installed, windows 7 x64 won't load them unless you force it to do so. But then again, if you force to load unsigned drivers, you will see "Test mode" mark in the low right corner of the screen. That mark can be disabled too, but IIRC the method I tried didn't work on my PC.
Have to force load them but until they are loaded the equipment will not work as there is no windows generic driver. I have never seen any notification of test mode but after the last windows update the WLAN drivers had been tuned off and I had to reload them
 

Offline codeboy2k

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2015, 08:08:38 am »
The issue with Windows 10 is that drivers need to be signed with EV certs now (Extended Verification Certificates).  This means driver developers must pay Microsoft vetted Certificate Authorities (CAs) (currently only Symantec/Verisign and DigiCert) to get a new EV certificate to submit to their signing portal so that Microsoft can sign your driver (which you first sign with your EV Certificate).

EV certs are like military background checks on you.. a much more extensive verification of the requester is done.

According to what was announced at WinHEC, Windows 10 drivers MUST be signed this way, and cannot be disabled. There is a 90 day grace period from Windows 10 public release, during which it will still load drivers signed "the old way" and after 90 days will require all drivers to be signed with EV certificates.

Under Windows 7 and 8 I was able to use bcdedit to permanently turn off windows signature checking:

C\> bcdedit -set loadoptions DISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS

Under Windows 10 the bcdedit command appears to work fine, and installs the flag properly into the database, but it seems like Windows 10 ignores it on boot, and does not disable driver signature checks -- the driver does not load.

Drivers can load in Test Mode (with the test mode logo on the screen).

You can also force load a non-signed driver at each reboot, but this must be done manually each time the system is booted.

From what I can tell, there is no longer a way on Windows 10 to permanently disable driver signature checks.

 
 

Offline justanothercanuck

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2015, 10:01:49 am »
I can't get the software for my network switch to run properly on Win7.  It runs, but won't connect to the switch at all.  Doesn't even see it.

Sad thing is, now with XP gone EOL, I probably can't even reinstall XP on a virtual machine and activate it (not that I expect any updates, past or EOL-current).  My only hope if I want to keep using that switch, will be to manually copy that whole system over into a virtual disk, and hope it re-enumerates all the hardware okay.  (and piss away any idea of a clean install with only the switch software installed)

All that said, I doubt it'll work on 10 either.  Not even going to try.  Yeah sure, I could get a new switch, but why drop $1000 when the one I have works perfectly fine (and I don't really need gigabit at home)?
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Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2015, 10:32:10 am »
...According to what was announced at WinHEC, Windows 10 drivers MUST be signed this way, and cannot be disabled. There is a 90 day grace period from Windows 10 public release, during which it will still load drivers signed "the old way" and after 90 days will require all drivers to be signed with EV certificates...

This is not a good sign.

A number for Chinese and Taiwanese brand USB TV dongles and USB cameras are not signed and therefore will be rendered useless. I have a USB PCB inspection camera (reviewed by Dave in EEVblog #566), and it works a treat. But I hope it works in Windows 10! I guess I should check if the driver is signed. If not, it might be end up as another useless piece of equipment.

One thing that really annoys me about Microsoft is they dictate to large extent what they think is good for us. Win 8.0 was rubbish because they got it badly wrong. As was Vista. As was WinME. Recent copies of Word has gone the same way with their illogical menus. There should be a way to permanently switch off this signing malarkey for us hackers who like to work under the hood.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 01:30:31 pm by VK3DRB »
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2015, 10:44:22 am »
Is there any real disadvantage of just using test mode? That said, I just stick to using Linux.
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Offline digsys

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2015, 11:22:18 am »
Quote from: justanothercanuck
Sad thing is, now with XP gone EOL, I probably can't even reinstall XP on a virtual machine and activate it (not that I expect any updates, past or EOL-current) .... 
I still run many PCs under XP, and rebuild and activate them. As long as you have a valid Key, MS will activate them, possibly for many years yet.
Heck, I activated a W98 a few months ago. You can get all updates until it was "officially" EOL'd, and they still do minor new updates as well,
not that I ever needed them. Some ppl have fiddled the registry to get the ATM updates, but I don't bother, it all works fine :-)
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Offline justanothercanuck

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2015, 11:56:37 am »
Quote from: justanothercanuck
Sad thing is, now with XP gone EOL, I probably can't even reinstall XP on a virtual machine and activate it (not that I expect any updates, past or EOL-current) .... 
I still run many PCs under XP, and rebuild and activate them. As long as you have a valid Key, MS will activate them, possibly for many years yet.
Heck, I activated a W98 a few months ago. You can get all updates until it was "officially" EOL'd, and they still do minor new updates as well,
not that I ever needed them. Some ppl have fiddled the registry to get the ATM updates, but I don't bother, it all works fine :-)

Cool, I'll have to get off my butt one of these days and do it before I run out of time.  Thanks for the info.  :-+
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Offline codeboy2k

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2015, 03:12:25 pm »
Is there any real disadvantage of just using test mode? That said, I just stick to using Linux.

I don't think so.  It disables the code that checks up the signing chain to a root CA.  So it means that it will load any driver that is signed with any certificate, and does not need to end at a CA.

So you could self-sign any unsigned driver you created or any 3rd party driver you needed, and always run in test mode .  It's just insecure, and you get the 'Test mode' logo in all 4 corners of your desktop.

( There might be a trick to remove that Test mode logo )

 

Offline warp_foo

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2015, 08:37:53 pm »
This bothers me quite a bit:

Windows 10 shares your wifi password: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/06/30/windows_10_wi_fi_sense/

Basically, this makes Windows 10 incompatible with security.
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Offline Mechanical Menace

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Re: Windows 10 incompatibilities for EEVBLOG fans
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2015, 08:48:26 pm »
This bothers me quite a bit:

Windows 10 shares your wifi password: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/06/30/windows_10_wi_fi_sense/

Basically, this makes Windows 10 incompatible with security.

Not really, it just means you better trust everyone in your Hotmail contacts or change your SSID  :wtf:

I don't even like WPS but see that it has it's uses. This could be a good idea if you had finer grained control of who got your passphrase (if you're only using a password on WiFi you're incompatible with security anyway).
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