Your friendly little Roomba could soon be selling maps of your home to marketers

[cdev]

"Your friendly little Roomba could soon become a creepy little spy that sells maps of your house to advertisers" said the tweet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/technology/roomba-irobot-data-privacy.html


Your Roomba may be vacuuming up more than you think.
High-end models of Roomba, iRobot’s robotic vacuum, collect data as they clean, identifying the locations of your walls and furniture. This helps them avoid crashing into your couch, but it also creates a map of your home that iRobot is considering selling to Amazon, Apple or Google.
This ties in to changes taking place in the GPS/GNSS systems that make location services several orders of magnitude more accurate and potentially privacy destroying.
 And now Roomba may be selling additional information, its internal mappings of your home, to vendors who want to know who is spending and on what.

[Ampera]

I know it's a stupid cop out argument, but I truly think it's worthwhile here.

What the hell would they need with my house's floorplan? They already steal all of our pictures, they could probably form what they like from that.

Whatever, I'm not lazy enough to own a Roomba. As far as I can recall, spending 10 minutes vacuuming a room was a heck of a lot faster than letting a tiny little shit of a bot that you're gonna step on and break at some point do it in 30 minutes.

[dos]

"Who cares, I have nothing to hide" is music to the ears of some of the scummiest people on earth and has been for a very long time.

[Halcyon]

"Who cares, I have nothing to hide" is music to the ears of some of the scummiest people on earth and has been for a very long time.

Precisely! Just because you have "nothing to hide" doesn't mean you shouldn't be in total and complete control of your information and data about you.

I have nothing to hide either, but my habits, likes/dislikes, my product preferences, what time I leave the house etc... is no one else's business except mine and my partner's.

What isn't known about me on the internet or by private organisations, can't be exploited.

[PlainName]

Who cares about me specifically?

You might when you find you can't get insurance because you're perceived as a bad risk, or vendors prefer not to sell stuff to you, burglars turn up with a floor plan and location of valuable items for your house, etc. With no control over your data, or what is sucked up as data, you won't be able to fix it either.

A friend is currently struggling to defeat someone who is pretending to be him. Part of the problem is that the fake has taken over his bank accounts, and he can't get them back because his personal info (date of birth, etc) is unknown to him. WTF, you think - but the fake has changed them so, of course, when my friend quotes the real info it doesn't match the data held on him and he is perceived as the fake.

What has that to do with this Roomba thing? It is noting that insinuated data out there, compiled from various underhand sources such as this, and which may be completely erroneous, can have a detrimental effect on you (yes, YOU personally, the one in seven billion) and there may well be nothing you can do about it.

[Halcyon]

Who cares about me specifically?

You might when you find you can't get insurance because you're perceived as a bad risk

Excellent point. This is already happening in Australia and has been for years. Same with the Australian Tax Office. If you even "appear" to be living a more lucrative life than what your reported income suggests, then the spotlight will be on you and you'll be required to explain.

Remaining as anonymous as possible is in your best interest. Companies can't use your information against you and people can't steal what they don't know about you. I'm not suggesting you hide all your cash under your bed and avoid anything with an NFC chip, but be smart about what you provide and to who.

For example, stores don't need to know where you live (except as part of a delivery address) but even then, you can still have items delivered to you without revealing your physical address.

[Brumby]

For example, stores don't need to know where you live (except as part of a delivery address) ...

Indeed.

I have done a couple of online purchases for in-store pickup from a particular retailer - and they required me to provide an address.  So I gave them an address .... the address of the store where I was going to collect the goods.  Both times my orders were ready and waiting.

[voltsandjolts]

In the future there are going to be so many of these types of devices that seem innocuous to the uninformed, pesky privacy leeks to the more informed and down right deadly to those who stand up to oppressive regimes they live under.

[Sent from my smart phone  ]

[Brumby]

Oh ... and as far as any sort of private information being collected, I am strongly against it for a couple of reasons.

Firstly is the purpose.  Navigation information is helpful if I had a little robot running around my house - but why does that information need to go outside that environment?  Will it improve my robot's navigation abilities?  If the export of the information has nothing to do with the purpose for which the device was purchased, then it has no reason to leave the premises.

Secondly is the specific information being collected.  Aside from obstacles, will there be 'enhancements' to the sensors that will enable more detailed information about the contents of the property - or even human activity.  I'd really love to know that someone can see I have a big screen Sony home theatre system and the house is regularly unattended at certain times.  Add that with similar information gleaned about the neighbours and all of a sudden, you have a burglar's shopping list and timetable.

Third is the custodianship of the information.  Can I be assured it will be treated with appropriate levels of confidentiality?  I'd say definitely not to this.  The response would be dismissive, beginning with the words: "It's only...".   Like a pixel on a screen ... put a few of these little bits of data together and you start getting a picture.....

Next is ... Do I really want people to be able to target me with more appropriate and specific advertising?  Answer: NO.  I already get too much of this crap as it is.  I don't need to spend money and I don't need people trying to entice it out of me.  It's annoying - and I switch off to it as much as possible.  If I DO want to buy something ... because I need it ... then just let me find the information when I want to.

I could go on - but I will stop there.

Bottom line ... my response to such a proposition is HELL NO.

[PlainName]

Will it improve my robot's navigation abilities?

Probably not in a direct way. But think of a few years down the line: you complain about your data being sucked up and sold and the response will be "But if they didn't have that income stream they couldn't build you that robot so cheaply." We can see the way it goes from the web, where any objection to adverts is met by "but that pays for your internet so you should feel grateful for them". And, of course, "block adverts? You thief" is the subtext, sometimes explicitly said.

Nothing you can do about it. You could point out that you would be happy to pay the price of not having your data sucked up (which, actually, would realistically be exactly the same) but you are just one of a small minority and the chances are it wouldn't be on sale. We see this also now with subscription software: there is a particular package I would like but is only sold on subscription. I offered the developer what amounts to fours years subscription as a one-off lifetime purchase (going from other stuff, I would likely not use it beyond year three) but he refused. Try that one on, say, Microsoft and it wouldn't even get past their inbox filter.

[Halcyon]

At the end of the day, IT'S A VACUUM CLEANER! It doesn't need to be connected to the internet in any way.

If internet connectivity is required for such a device to perform its primary task, then question whether you actually need to buy that particular brand/model.

I've said it many times before: A truly smart home has nothing to do with how many internet-connected devices you can stuff into it.

[RoGeorge]

Who cares? I don't mind Google Map stalking me 24/7 and asking me if I want to add a picture of xxx location, and I don't care if Google Assistant listening me working my dick. Come on, I'm just a common guy among other 7 billion people. Who cares about me specifically?Want to tell FBI if I'm to start a revolution? I'm not in that shit. Want to tell DEA if I'm cooking meth? Not in that business either. Want to give me customized ADs? Welcome.

Romania, 1946:
"I have nothing to hide, I'm a honest business man, I have land and factories, no one will dare to touch me." - then the Romanian Comunist Party won the elections, shot the elites, throw in jail the intellectuals, and confiscate all the private property in the name of the people.

Europe, 1943:
"I have nothing to hide, Nazis will not jeopardize their high skilled Jewish workers, they are looking only for the bad apples." - then the concentration camps happened to all of them.

You might think something so ugly can happen in country based on democracy, freedom and human rights, like the USA.

USA, 1941:
"I have nothing to hide, I'm a USA citizen, and proud to be an American with Japanese origins." - then Pearl Harbor happened, and all USA citizens with Japanese origins are forced into American concentration camps.

Now, you are an Asian student, in a country where the new elected president wants to build a wall against immigrants, and you are saying you have nothing to hide.

OK, times have changed, nothing so bad can happen any more. Not saying here you need to live in an underground hideout. But here is a hypothetical situation that doesn't seem so far fetched for 2020:
- "We inform you that your house and medical insurance fee will both be doubled for the next month."
- WTF, why?
- Well, because your vacuum cleaner detected that you have the habit to throw your pants on the floor. This can be a hazard for later stepping into them, falling down, and breaking a bone.
- Grrr..., but why doubling the house insurance, too?
- From the personal data integration platform, you are also into electronics. Falling down in an electronics lab has an increased probability of tipping over the soldering iron, and starting a fire.
- May I speak with a human insurance agent, please?
- There are no humans in our call center.
- Since when?
- Since the Great Data Unification, have a nice day!
- Wait, what?!
- For more details about our new integrated data services, press 1. For promotional offers, press 2. For listening to our 45 minutes EULA, press3.

[JoeO]

Who cares? I don't mind Google Map stalking me 24/7 and asking me if I want to add a picture of xxx location, and I don't care if Google Assistant listening me working my dick. Come on, I'm just a common guy among other 7 billion people. Who cares about me specifically?Want to tell FBI if I'm to start a revolution? I'm not in that shit. Want to tell DEA if I'm cooking meth? Not in that business either. Want to give me customized ADs? Welcome.

I can't tell if you are being truthful or sarcastic.  If you are being truthful, then why don't you use your real name and post your address and phone number? 

Just a thought.

[Halcyon]

- May I speak with a human insurance agent, please?

Even if you did, it wouldn't do much good. For some reason, my car insurance is $100 more per year than next door. Why? Who the fuck knows, not even the insurer knows. I get a generic spiel about there being "differences" in the properties etc... but at the end of the day, it's a "take it or leave it" scenario. Obviously some algorithm has decided my property is of greater risk of "something", but no one knows why.

The humans don't get paid to save you money, they get paid to save the insurer money.

[cdev]

Do you have any illness or history of car accidents? Or do you drive a more expensive car or have a bigger family?   Or perhaps would somebody else spend more or less than you if they lived in your house?

[cdev]

Human insurance agents just screw things up. To really "fuck" people, they need the machines impersonal touch.

[cdev]

The US is getting ready for a huge increase in surveillance jobs to make up for the huge increase in outsourcing in non-surveillance office jobs. The new jobs will involve the Internet of Things and require security clearances. They want young people, with good family background, as Chinese would say, whose futures otherwise will become bleak, its a way of buying them off. Buying their complicity, as it were.

This was in the news yesterday, buried on Page 31.

[Halcyon]

Do you have any illness or history of car accidents? Or do you drive a more expensive car or have a bigger family?   Or perhaps would somebody else spend more or less than you if they lived in your house?

I wouldn't say my car is expensive, but that had nothing to do with it. No to all the other questions as well.

I generated 2 quotes online, both identical except the address. Next door came out $100 cheaper. The neighbour on the other side of me was the same as me.

[Red Squirrel]

This spying crap is getting so out of hand.  I try to avoid trendy consumer electronics for that reason.   Though I kinda broke that rule with a smart phone but considering how bad those are for spying I often think of reconsidering. Downside is there is really no alternatives even if all you want to do is be able to text.  I'm aware they can spy on what I say/text on my phone but where the line is being crossed is the fact that they also spy on what you do locally on/near the phone, or track your every move, record your IRL  conversations etc.     The issue is the software on them.  There needs to be a Linux equivalent OS that we can load on them so we can get rid of all the spy crap.  Android is pretty much designed around spying and so is IOS. 

I also noticed Google maps seems to always be running in the background and tracks where you are.  That is freaky and they're not even subtle about it.  It's pretty much like "yeah we're tracking you, what are you going to do about it?  BTW how was your visit at Tim Hortons?"

[Halcyon]

Though I kinda broke that rule with a smart phone but considering how bad those are for spying I often think of reconsidering.

There are ways you can screw down the privacy settings. On Apple iPhones, you have some control, but there is a lot that is uploaded to the cloud that you can't switch off. That's the price you pay for their "easy to use" ecosystem.

On Android, especially the newer versions, you have a lot more control, even down to what applications have access to specific parts of your phone's hardware and software.

But some of it involved discipline on your part. For example: Not using Google maps for navigation? Then turn off location settings (on most phones it's as easy as a short swipe and a tap to toggle location on/off). There is absolutely no reason why your GPS module needs to be on if you aren't specifically using it.

Then there are all the buried settings which do everything from track and keep a history of your locations, to what you search, what you view on YouTube, etc... they can all be turned off. You just need to spend 10 minutes or so, go through each and every privacy menu and turn that shit off. Surprisingly, Google even offer a website for you to "fine tune" these settings: https://myaccount.google.com/ however I suspect few people actually bother.

Then finally, get yourself some protection. I've said it before and I'll repeat it here: Regardless of what operating system, phone or platform you use, get some basic virus protection and install browser plugins such as Ghostery to stop information leaking out to the webpages you visit (Ghostery Privacy Browser is also available as a standalone browser for Android and IOS and works well). If you think just because you have an iPhone, you're immune from viruses and malware, think again!

On top of all that, the best advice I can give is one service = one account. Don't use your Facebook, Google, etc... accounts to sign in to other sites and services. All that is doing is creating further links to your information. Use a different password for all of your services and keep them in a password manager such as Keepass so you don't have to try and remember them all.

[Electro Detective]

You guys are doing it all wrong, 

either hook with a real woman     that knows how to run the store without silly devices, 

of have the Roomba on a VPN network plan 

[cdev]

Its a push by Wall Street to corporations to make more profit - or lose their investors to other firms or countries.

Public companies are under extreme pressure to monetize every product and service as much as possible.

Ive read (on wikileaks, for example, they have lists of how much they get paid and for what)  government(s) pay companies (such as popular computing and cellphone hardware and operating systems companies as well as manufacturers of network hardware and providers of web related services) for all sorts of information, and many I am sure have redesigned their products to collect as much marketable information as possible, that must help their bottom line quite a bit, but there still are a LOT of products and services that likely have not yet reached their full commercial as well as government spying income potential. This is a major driver behind IoT, I am sure.

I am sure consultants have been telling them to do this for years.



Quote from: Red Squirrel on Today at 02:11:25

This spying crap is getting so out of hand.  I try to avoid trendy consumer electronics for that reason.   Though I kinda broke that rule with a smart phone but considering ...

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah tons of corruption all around going on with this stuff.

I'm starting to think, since we can't fight this stuff off, and the majority of public does not even care, perhaps we need to fight this in different ways, such as sending lot of bogus data.  Suppose they have algorithms to filter stuff like that out though but it could be fun especially with something like roomba where you could probably simulate fake rooms and send that data. 

[Electro Detective]

Yeah tons of corruption all around going on with this stuff.

I'm starting to think, since we can't fight this stuff off, and the majority of public does not even care, perhaps we need to fight this in different ways, such as sending lot of bogus data.  Suppose they have algorithms to filter stuff like that out though but it could be fun especially with something like roomba where you could probably simulate fake rooms and send that data.

Simple solution, just don't use or buy their sh!t    

They may just dry up and blow away as ignored sh!t tends to do   

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah tons of corruption all around going on with this stuff.

I'm starting to think, since we can't fight this stuff off, and the majority of public does not even care, perhaps we need to fight this in different ways, such as sending lot of bogus data.  Suppose they have algorithms to filter stuff like that out though but it could be fun especially with something like roomba where you could probably simulate fake rooms and send that data.

Simple solution, just don't use or buy their sh!t    

They may just dry up and blow away as ignored sh!t tends to do   

The problem is they are putting that crap in everything now.  Soon there won't be any choices.   Look at TVs, pretty hard to find a non smart TV now days. 
 

[Electro Detective]

Agreed, it's over the top    

Looks like I'll be shopping for older used 'Non-Smart' equipment down the track, and save a buck 

Or get a hacker mate to sort out the smartass electronics on the new gear, so the only information being sent out is a big >   


...or The Finger

[Halcyon]

The moment your home network requires more IP addresses than already available on a /24 network, it's a sign you might have too many "smart" gadgets.
 

Just doing a quick count, excluding computers, laptops, tablets and phones, I have:

3 Sonos speakers
1 TV (locked by firewall rules to only connect to the Philips update server at a specific time of day)
1 Alarm clock

None of them have microphones or cameras.

[cdev]

My last TV will be exactly that. I have no plans to ever buy another one since I never use the one I have except for the occasional video which is usually emitted from a computer plugged into it (its just acting as a monitor)

I think "dumbness" needs to be pushed as a selling point.   
Also, if they put them in, they can be taken out, like the government sometimes does with their own hardware, lets disable all the non-switchable sensors, microphones, cameras etc.  in these things-

If people want smart devices, let them be open source projects, with open hardware, so people can code what they do themselves.

Quote from: Red Squirrel on Yesterday at 20:20:56

Simple solution, just don't use or buy their sh!t    

They may just dry up and blow away as ignored sh!t tends to do   

The problem is they are putting that crap in everything now.  Soon there won't be any choices.   Look at TVs, pretty hard to find a non smart TV now days.

[Syntax_Error]

Don't know if someone already brought this up, but here goes: "Just wait" till it doesn't need your home internet connection. Just wait until they start coming with embedded 3G transcievers, and after 5G networks are common in a few decades, 4G transcievers.

The point is not that it will be unstoppable, as there will always be something you can do to intervene (just becomes less practical). It's more about the fact that with your home network, it requires/demands user interaction to at least set it up to give it access to your network. With embedded cellular connections, user interaction is not needed at all for some usage scenarios, and hardly at all for the rest. They might stop telling you about transmitted data at all.

Mull that around for a bit.

[rdl]

Don't know if someone already brought this up, but here goes: "Just wait" till it doesn't need your home internet connection. Just wait until they start coming with embedded 3G transcievers, and after 5G networks are common in a few decades, 4G transcievers.

They upgraded the alarm systems in my apartment complex last year. The new ones have a built in cell phone connection instead of being wired.

As soon as the installers left I unplugged it and disconnected the battery.

[cdev]

The problem is there is very much an incomplete social contract based on a miscalibration of trust.



Quote from: blueskull on Today at 01:25:30

Seems there are quite a few people here still believing they can keep their freedom forever. Now, this IoT trend and big brother is looking is just another example of the loss of freedom, and this is bound to happen.
We naively thought modern civilization can bring us freedom, which was thought by people in peace time of every dynasties in the past.
History repeats itself, exactly, over and over again. There will be rebellion, creating an era, then there will be a very long peaceful period which people think they get true freedom and civilization, until the new pattern of absolute power starts to emerge, triggering a new revolution, and the history repeats itself.
As long as we are still human, we will have the tendency to gather power, and that's the root of inherent instability of human society.

[PlainName]

Well you can take such a view of the patterns and cycles of history based on past experience and philosophizing about human nature etc.

Clearly, past experience hasn't taught you that people won't trust anything you say if they once catch you making stuff up.

The saying "those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it" is

... mis-remembered during stream-of-consciouness composition. The correct version is:

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Rather a subtle change in meaning rather than a simple paraphrase too.

As M.K. Gandhi said even a pebble raises the level of the entire ocean.

Unfortunately, he didn't. What he did say was:

A ppebble raises the water level a boulder creates an ocean; a pebble matters a little a boulder changes a lot.

Again, rather a different meaning to what you intended

For future reference, had the first quote actually been the right quote I wouldn't have bothered checking the second (sounds like a Gandhi inspired pebble/ocean thing, so would have passed me by). Perhaps checking your memory before committing to papBBS might improve the reception of what you write.

[cdev]

They couldn't give a fuck what we think. Nor would they stop lying just because a few people had figured them out. They would just ignore them.

Basically all our governments are increasingly shams. They don't run things, a global cabal of corporations do. Its been that way for >20 years. People still haven't figured that out.

[PlainName]

As engineers and just as people that make choices about what products / companies / technologies / ideas to "invest in" or otherwise purchase / promote / pursue / create we can influence the destination of that road.

I don't think we can, for two reasons:

1. We (who might be disturbed by this) are in a very small minority. Things change because the bigger influence gets its way, and that influence is either via numbers (for instance, in elections) or money (for example, by lobbying). Sure, cheap lobbying is possible, but that requires numbers and money pretty much always wins out.

2. We (engineer types) mostly don't give a shit. I refer you to the privacy thread I contributed in the EEVBlog-specific forum, the gist of which was cool and neat will win over privacy every time. I see grown up successful engineers raving about Windows 10 features they like and discarding the bad bits as one of those things we need to put up with so we can have the good bits. And do you want tinfoil with that paranoia or will you just stop with the inconvenient revelations.

Essentially, the population at large is easily bought, and it doesn't have to involve any financial consideration - shiny is good enough. And that's if they even notice in the first place. Keep it under the radar and even if someone shoves it in their face one breakfast time they'll forget about it by lunch.

Back when East Germany wasn't part of the West, the Stasi would have creamed their pants at just a fraction of what is now normal for us. We would have read about what went on their and shake our heads in disbelief that people would just put up with it. Yet here we are pretty much asking for more of the same, and with custard on please. This is what the technical power you refer to has given us: the benefit to us is now just the lubrication that lets the real power wielders monitor and manipulate us. You only have to check  the thread I referred to above to see that even the lowliest of us want that power to monitor other people, so it's not a surprise that, given free rein, those capable of grabbing that power will go as far as they can until they are forced to stop. If they can be.

[mtdoc]

Cdev and dunkemhigh are right. Unfortunately most people prefer to remain in the matrix. 

"Ignorance is bliss!"