Author Topic: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery  (Read 85761 times)

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Offline sleemanj

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2014, 02:20:52 pm »
about Robert Murray-Smith :
"I'm primarily interested in free energy "

Asking one free energy nut about another free energy nut. This is priceless :D

I don't know about any free energy nuttery, but I believe he does know a thing or two about graphene, I've often stumbled across his youtube stuff, particularly in regards to conductive inks and so forth.

There are intelligent people who believe in invisible beings - strange ideas in one area do not necessarily invalidate all your works :-)
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Offline echen1024

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2014, 04:01:22 am »
Huh. Exactly what is a "Lithium Ion Capacitor?"  :bullshit:

Here is a pdf with Taiyo Yuden presentation of their LIC

http://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/LICpresentationforstorage20131110.PDF
Huh. never seen one of these before. Looks quite interesting
I'm not saying we should kill all stupid people. I'm just saying that we should remove all product safety labels and let natural selection do its work.

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Offline engineer_in_shorts

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2014, 07:23:29 am »
why is Elon Musk spending all of that money building giga factorys?  He just needs $8k of graphene  :-DD
 

Offline max_torque

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2014, 08:56:43 am »
Solar energy is free as in available for everyone to use.

In fact, all energy is "free".  We don't pay for the oil that comes out of the ground, or the Uranium we get from mines for example. The bit that "costs" is the location, extraction and concentration of those energy sources into a practical and useable power source!.

As a result, Solar energy is no more "free" than that derived from say oil...............
 

Online dunkemhigh

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2014, 04:09:01 am »
Quote
Solar energy is no more "free" than that derived from say oil

'Course it is. Once you have the kit you don't pay any more. With normal supplies you only get power whilst you continue paying for it.

If you use electricity derived from solar delivered via your local electricity supplier, that's not free.

If you bought a refinery and owned some wells that piped the oil straight into the refinery, and your owned power station right next door generated electricity from that, that still wouldn't be free, unfortunately, since you have ongoing costs in order to convert the oil to electricity. But it would be damn close to free to run your car :)
 

Offline max_torque

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2014, 04:46:31 am »
Quote
Solar energy is no more "free" than that derived from say oil

'Course it is. Once you have the kit you don't pay any more. With normal supplies you only get power whilst you continue paying for it.

If you use electricity derived from solar delivered via your local electricity supplier, that's not free.

If you bought a refinery and owned some wells that piped the oil straight into the refinery, and your owned power station right next door generated electricity from that, that still wouldn't be free, unfortunately, since you have ongoing costs in order to convert the oil to electricity. But it would be damn close to free to run your car :)

Not really.

If you want "Free" solar power, you have to find say $10,000 upfront to install the solar array and inverter, then you have to maintain those devices, and of course, you need to depreciate those assets to zero over their lifetime, as when they are obsolete/worn out, you will have to buy some new ones.

So, either you pay your $10,000 upfront in a chunk, or you can pay say $100 a month for 10 years instead.
Neither makes that power "free" in my book!!  ;-)
 

Online dunkemhigh

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2014, 06:36:39 am »
Quote
If you want "Free" solar power, you have to find say $10,000 upfront

Sure, but it is a sunk cost. Once you're running, you pay no more (or less) regardless of how much electricity you use (or don't use). That is vastly different to the costs associated with normal delivery, where you pay continuously, and the amount you pay depends on how much you use.

It is the difference between all-you-can-eat broadband and dial-up with per minute phone charges.

Quote
Neither makes that power "free" in my book!!

Nevertheless, "Solar energy is no more "free" than that derived from say oil" is IMO wrong for the reasons I've outlined. Once you have 'free' solar you aren't going to think, "Oh, I can run the aircon because it will add another few dollars to my power bill." No, you just whack it up to 11 because there is no additional cost associated with it.
 

Offline mamalala

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2014, 06:51:41 am »
Nevertheless, "Solar energy is no more "free" than that derived from say oil" is IMO wrong for the reasons I've outlined. Once you have 'free' solar you aren't going to think, "Oh, I can run the aircon because it will add another few dollars to my power bill." No, you just whack it up to 11 because there is no additional cost associated with it.

Unless you want to use it when the sun doesn't shine. Then you need some kind of storage for the electricity. And you need to extend generating capacity as well: not only enough to meet actual demand, but some extra to actually recharge the storage. This adds more cost to the system, and maintaining storage can be expensive as well, depending on what type/efficiency chosen.

It's just not a matter of "let me slap some panels on the roof, buy an inverter, and i can disconnect from the grid".

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2014, 07:19:00 am »
There are plenty of solar powered calculators that have been running for decades.

But there is the whole planet that has been solar powered for over 4.5 billion years.

15 years ago a big screen TV will set you back $50,000 couple of years later $10K, now you can get one for under $500.
So don't focus too much on the panels, they keep on getting cheaper, but sure, worry that we will get taxed for the sun we use and the air we breathe.

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Online dunkemhigh

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2014, 08:51:18 am »
Quote
Unless you want to use it when the sun doesn't shine.

Irrelevant. If you can't use it that doesn't suddenly mean you're paying for it! Blimey, just watch those goalposts slide around now  :box:

Whatever. I've said my bit, clarified a bit, and I'm not about to be drawn any deeper into a war of the Internet faux pedants. The field is all yours  :-+
 

Offline mamalala

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2014, 11:13:23 am »
Quote
Unless you want to use it when the sun doesn't shine.

Irrelevant. If you can't use it that doesn't suddenly mean you're paying for it! Blimey, just watch those goalposts slide around now

Nonsense. It was you who made the initial comparison:

Quote
Once you're running, you pay no more (or less) regardless of how much electricity you use (or don't use). That is vastly different to the costs associated with normal delivery, where you pay continuously, and the amount you pay depends on how much you use.

Thing is, if you want to compare energy sources, you have to consider what it takes to get them to an equal service quality. Fossil fuels and nuclear can run 24/7. That means you need to to compare to a solar or wind based system that can also deliver 24/7. And to get to that you need way more than just a bunch of panels and an inverter. Anything else is utterly dishonest.

I'm not saying that wind and solar can not provide the same quality of service. Just that it requires way more than just putting up some panels and turbines. Therefore any calculation that only considers the cost for panels, turnines and inverters has little connection to reality.

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2014, 11:48:23 am »
The original point is that solar is freely available and it was used just as an example that not all "free energy" means overunity zealous nuts.

You don't even need a solar panel, the energy is just there for the taking, use a lens and focus it in your skin, then tell me there is no energy in there.
 

Offline max_torque

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2014, 12:47:54 am »
Also without wishing to be drawn in to a massive pedantry war, my point was really that to call renewables "free" is disingenuous and a trap that many a "man on the street" falls into when discussing energy and it's cost to our society.


We have been lucky, that over roughly the last 200 years our society has had access to a vast and low cost supply of energy, namely coal, oil & gas.  Those energy stores did not "cost" human beings anything to convert and store.  "Mother Nature" had spend several millions of years (whilst we were all busy evolving ;-) taking solar energy from the sun, and packing it into a convenient and highly energy dense form.  We did not have to "pay" her to do that.

That easy accessibility and high energy density meant that the industrial revolution, and our subsequent addiction to massive low efficiency energy consumption, has unfortunately started to come to an end.  Supplies of conventional fuels are starting to become harder to find (and hence more costly to extract) and we have started to realise that there could be a large environmental impact to our incredibly rapid consumption of those fuels.

For the average "man on the street" it's easy to say "just use solar power, it's free" because they fail to understand that for ALL energy sources it is the cost of leveraging those sources that is important and not the cost of the raw materials (which are effectively free, because they are not "owned" by anyone.

Solar, wind, wave, geothermal etc etc all require just as much investment to leverage as coal, oil and gas, and often, because they have a lower energy density, they actually cost more.  In the case of solar power, you can't just "turn the washing machine on" if that extra load exceeds the generating capability of the system you installed, or indeed if it is a cloudy day.

Having a power "grid" and a national generating system that can leverage both economies of scale, and use its wide user base to "load level" (ie, not everyone want to turn their washing machine on at once) has made us lazy, and if we want to replace that capability, it IS going to cost us more money, even if we use "Free" sources of energy like solar power.


Ignoring massive "upfront" costs, such as the multi thousand dollar cost of a decent solar system is ridiculous.  For example, i you would like to send me $12,000 today, i will happily give you $100 dollars a week for the next 10 years.  In the meantime, i shall invest my newly gained $12,000 and be making money on that!

The other issue, is that generally, for a grid supply system, you only pay out money when you use electricity. With say a local solar array, it sits on your rood depreciating regardless of whether you use it or not!

These subtleties and ok, often pedantic nuances, are however really rather important to include when comparing our long term future energy supplies and security!




 

Offline mamalala

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2014, 05:56:32 pm »
No, that's a silly way to compare renewables with other energy sources. You could pick another arbitrary comparison, say ability to respond to load, and point out that nuclear is extremely slow and coal isn't particularly brilliant either. In either case the comparison would be dishonest.

It's a valid comparison, especially if the goal is to switch to renewables  completely, as is the case here in Germany. And it is true, coal and nukes are rather slow when it comes to load changes. Gas is much faster. But they all can deliver at any time when there is demand, since they can run 24/7 (not accounting for service/maintenance time here). Wind and solar can only be used when there is wind and sun, unless you add enough storage.

You can't use renewables the way way you use a nuclear plant. They are not the same, and direct comparison is pointless at best.

If you want to go off grid, battery packs are pretty cheap now. I don't think anyone is advocating self sufficiency though.

Well, and here is the point. Assume you take the simple way with no storage. That means you can only use the energy it produces _when_ it produces any. You still need to be connected to grid for the times where it doesn't produce. This means you still have the same amount of base price for regular electricity, all you save is the kWh's that you can get from a solar installation, for example.

Now, here is the question: If you pay, lets say, 10 thousand Euro upfront for the install, how long would it take you to get even, when compared to using regular electricity? Since, in most places on the world, you have only a few hours of solar available for any decent amount of electricity generation.  Plus, you don't have that all around the year either, winter in Europe and you produce little to nothing.

Projected life time of installed solar panels is between 20 and 30 years nowdays. Let's take the middle and say it's 25 years. That makes 400 Euro per year, or roundabout 33.33 Euro per month. At an average price of 25 Cent per kWh (it's expensive here in Germany), that makes roundabout 133 kWh per month that you must be able to use from that solar installation to break even. And mind you, this assumes 12 "usable" months per year, which is often not the case. The statistical avergae consumption per household is in Germany is about 3359 kWh per year, which results in roughly 280 kWh per month. You can already see that it's almost impossible to get even here throughout the lifetime of the panels.  Thing is that during the time that solar is most productive, people are usually not at home, while the times when most electricity is used in a household is when there is very little to no solar to be useful for PV.

Really, such things have to be considered. I hear things like "sun and wind dont send an invoice" as justification for claiming that it would be super-cheap. But that's just too short sighted a view. To make it really feasible one _must_ include things like storage into the calculation. If i were to install a 10k Euro system here with no storage, and only to use it for myself, it would never ever pay for itself, let alone save me any money. My monthly electricity bill is just too low for that to happen. And i'm working at home, so i'm at home pretty much always. Heck, even if it were only 5k it would be hard to get even. And 5k isn't that much when it has to go into panels, electronics and installation. Oh, and electricity is, as said, expensive over here. For anyone where it costs less, getting even is much harder.

But then, i guess this starting to get way too off-topic here now anyways. It just irks me when people claim that electricity from PV is basically free, and then refuse to consider the details.

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2014, 10:29:24 pm »
Group,

We have drifted a little off-topic...

The Kickstarter campaign is 8 days from the end and is getting close ($8,441) to meeting the goal ($10,000) despite all that has been said in the comments on Kickstarter, Hackaday and here on the EEVBlog.

How do we explain people continuing to support this project?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
 

Offline mzzj

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2014, 10:49:24 pm »


How do we explain people continuing to support this project?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
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Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2014, 07:57:03 am »
Hi,

If you look at the project backers you see two distinct groups:

1) The first group has backed 1 or 2 projects.

2) The other group seems to have a project addiction, having backed >30 projects.

Can you get addicted to Kickstarter?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
 

Offline tom66

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2014, 08:01:42 am »
The way many projects go, I think it's a form of gambling addiction...
 

Offline Rasz

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2014, 08:51:35 am »
The way many projects go, I think it's a form of gambling addiction...

shopping addiction is a real thing, things you buy dont matter much, its the trill of the hunt/selecting. 'joy' goes away the moment you pay for said thing, so you go searching for the next one immediately.
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Offline josem

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2014, 09:13:34 am »


How do we explain people continuing to support this project?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

It's not hard to "inject" funds into your own project at least on the US Kickstarter since there's no link between the card and the backer except through Amazon. I know someone who did this in the past because he actually set a too high goal and it was only off by $1000 or so anyway.

No one was harmed in that case, but it made me more dubious of KS and some of the insane pledging activity we see sometimes.

Normally you'll lose the KS commission on what you put in but successfully funding the project has obvious advantages since you snag the rest of the cash.

There's also a way to fund it without actually having the funds or losing any commission but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.

Not saying that's happening here but this project's creator does not seem to lack creativity...

Of course this is all against KS rules but, like the projects' credibility, they don't check those that much either.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 09:20:26 am by josem »
 

Offline hamster_nz

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2014, 09:14:05 am »
How do we explain people continuing to support this project?


I am a supporter - for $5. I signed up specifically because of this thread.

a) If kickstarter close it down then it costs me nothing
b) If it crashes and burns tt is cheap entertainment - watching a real life drama unfold.
c) If it actually works (very unlikely, but...) then I helped a little with somebody acheiving his or her dream.

So I skipped a coffee and signed up.
 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2014, 11:12:00 am »
Hi,
I was going to sign up, as new member, so I could comment on the technology. This isn't necessary because some people have made reference to the EEVBlog and Hackaday in the comments.

I hope it doesn't reach the target and everybody gets to keep their money.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2014, 12:18:30 pm »
Hi,

An update has appeared on the Kickstarter website:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shawnpwest/30-second-charging-rechargeable-battery/posts/935164#comments

Shawn West shows this measurement of capacity:



If this true, it still doesn't solve the problem of charging the battery in 30 seconds.

If this not true, this is blatant fraud.

Jay_Diddy_B
 

Offline jaxbird

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2014, 01:40:58 pm »
Hi,

An update has appeared on the Kickstarter website:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shawnpwest/30-second-charging-rechargeable-battery/posts/935164#comments

Shawn West shows this measurement of capacity:

....

If this true, it still doesn't solve the problem of charging the battery in 30 seconds.

If this not true, this is blatant fraud.

Jay_Diddy_B

I think it's made up. Why does he not mention the discharge current in the test?

According to the Energizer spec for his comparison battery (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf) the load used is probably around 250mA. (my guess based on the voltages) So probably his chart spans 10 hours.

With that time span, the single spike looks much too slow, probably 20-30 minutes on his chart between the voltage going to 0V and returning to 1.5V.

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Offline IanB

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Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2014, 01:43:16 pm »
It's entirely impossible to have a horizontal voltage trend like that...
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