### Author Topic: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery  (Read 85768 times)

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#### Jay_Diddy_B

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##### 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« on: July 18, 2014, 08:21:29 am »
Hi group,

Here is another Kickstarter project with technical challenges:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shawnpwest/30-second-charging-rechargeable-battery

In the FAQ the stated capacity is 1150 mAh.

So we have 1.5V x 1.15A x 60 x 60 (conversion to seconds) = 6210 Joules.

These Lithium Ion super caps:

http://ca.mouser.com/new/Taiyo-Yuden/taiyo-yuden-lithium-ion-capacitors/

in the package that is close to fitting an AA battery (12.5mm diameter x 35 mm) is 40F

Charge these to 3.8V we have:

1/2 CV2 = 0.5 x 40 x 3.82 = 288J

If you allow for the fact you can discharge to 1/2 the maximum voltage, you can extract 3/4 of the energy:

288  x 0.75 = 216 Joules

We only have  1/30 of the energy required

Charging

If the rechargeable battery had a useable capacity of 6000 Joules, we would need 8000 Joules.

8000J / 0.5 x 3.8 x 3.8 = 1100F

I = C dv/dt

= 1100F x 2V /30s = 73 Amps

I detect a few problems

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

#### EEVblog

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2014, 09:32:55 am »
I detect a few problems

No kidding!

#### ludzinc

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2014, 09:37:54 am »
You win again, immutable laws of Physics!

But wait - it's lasted for *days already in his daughters toy*

#### george graves

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2014, 11:32:45 am »
Well, regarding the whole charging time thing....I can't think of a reason why a second set of rechargeable batteries wouldn't solve the problem.

#### Fsck

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2014, 04:07:01 pm »
"This is a one line proof...if we start sufficiently far to the left."

#### EEVblog

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2014, 08:12:21 pm »
Apparently hackaday does not compute either.

According to the inventor:
Quote
The capacitor is 270F and the esr is 40 milliohms.

So where is this magic 270F cap coming from if the best that seems to fit is 40F?

#### Bracken

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2014, 08:39:58 pm »
Aside from the already mentioned technical problems, he's clearly gone to kickstarter a tiny bit early in this project.

I decided to give it a shot anyway, for £15 I can live with not actually getting one to rip into, which is what I expect TBH. But also because me backing a crowdfunding campaign is the kiss of death.
So Make It - The Southampton Makerspace

#### george graves

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2014, 08:56:37 pm »
One other thing... He's asking for $10k. Ok, that covers the BOM....except the empty AA battery shells. That's going to cost 10k just for the metal stamping dies? No? I googled a bit, and there are AAA to AA adapters you can buy, so maybe he's planning on using that. #### NANDBlog • Super Contributor • Posts: 4155 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #8 on: July 18, 2014, 09:53:58 pm » One other thing... He's asking for$10k.  Ok, that covers the BOM....except the empty AA battery shells.  That's going to cost 10k just for the metal stamping dies?  No?

I googled a bit, and there are AAA to AA adapters you can buy, so maybe he's planning on using that.
He is asking for 25 dollars for a battery which is below the capacitor itself.

#### con-f-use

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2014, 10:04:42 pm »
I decided to give it a shot anyway.

Since you are a backer: Could you post  Jay_Diddy_B's little calculation as a comment and ask the creator, what he has to say?
Maybe he got his hands on the next generation of uber-caps

Might at least stop people from wasting their money.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 11:20:08 pm by con-f-use »

#### Jay_Diddy_B

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2014, 10:16:46 pm »
Since you are a backer: Could you post  Jay_Diddy_B's little calculation as a comment and ask the creator, what he has to say? Maybe he got his hand on the next generation of uber-caps

Might at least stop people from wasting their money.

#### BravoV

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2014, 12:19:36 pm »
It's a weird notion to pay them so you can criticize their work.

#### mzzj

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2014, 05:43:49 am »

Using home-made graphene and biggest obstacle is  "My biggest challenge is maintaining and steady hand and limiting the coffee intake while soldering these tiny components to assure each and every battery functions as promised"

#### miguelvp

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2014, 06:59:57 am »
That's actually a very interesting development.

I really have no use for a single AA 1.5 v battery other than for testing it and check the super cap on the scope.

I might back it up because now I'm curious.

His mechanical extraction of graphene, not sure what to make of it. I wonder what Robert Murray-Smith thinks about that type of production of graphene. I might ask him.

#### EEVblog

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2014, 04:04:01 pm »

From here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shawnpwest/30-second-charging-rechargeable-battery/posts/926386

Quote
If, for some reason you don't believe these claims, well, I invite you to pledge enough to get a battery and run it through your own rigorous tests. I've had 2 in one of my daughters toys for weeks now without recharging and it's still going strong.

Wow, the guy got called out on his bullshit claims for capacity, and now pulls graphene out of his arse!

#### max_torque

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2014, 08:56:43 am »
Solar energy is free as in available for everyone to use.

In fact, all energy is "free".  We don't pay for the oil that comes out of the ground, or the Uranium we get from mines for example. The bit that "costs" is the location, extraction and concentration of those energy sources into a practical and useable power source!.

As a result, Solar energy is no more "free" than that derived from say oil...............

#### dunkemhigh

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2014, 04:09:01 am »
Quote
Solar energy is no more "free" than that derived from say oil

'Course it is. Once you have the kit you don't pay any more. With normal supplies you only get power whilst you continue paying for it.

If you use electricity derived from solar delivered via your local electricity supplier, that's not free.

If you bought a refinery and owned some wells that piped the oil straight into the refinery, and your owned power station right next door generated electricity from that, that still wouldn't be free, unfortunately, since you have ongoing costs in order to convert the oil to electricity. But it would be damn close to free to run your car

#### max_torque

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2014, 04:46:31 am »
Quote
Solar energy is no more "free" than that derived from say oil

'Course it is. Once you have the kit you don't pay any more. With normal supplies you only get power whilst you continue paying for it.

If you use electricity derived from solar delivered via your local electricity supplier, that's not free.

If you bought a refinery and owned some wells that piped the oil straight into the refinery, and your owned power station right next door generated electricity from that, that still wouldn't be free, unfortunately, since you have ongoing costs in order to convert the oil to electricity. But it would be damn close to free to run your car

Not really.

If you want "Free" solar power, you have to find say $10,000 upfront to install the solar array and inverter, then you have to maintain those devices, and of course, you need to depreciate those assets to zero over their lifetime, as when they are obsolete/worn out, you will have to buy some new ones. So, either you pay your$10,000 upfront in a chunk, or you can pay say $100 a month for 10 years instead. Neither makes that power "free" in my book!! ;-) #### dunkemhigh • Super Contributor • Posts: 1228 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #31 on: July 30, 2014, 06:36:39 am » Quote If you want "Free" solar power, you have to find say$10,000 upfront

Sure, but it is a sunk cost. Once you're running, you pay no more (or less) regardless of how much electricity you use (or don't use). That is vastly different to the costs associated with normal delivery, where you pay continuously, and the amount you pay depends on how much you use.

It is the difference between all-you-can-eat broadband and dial-up with per minute phone charges.

Quote
Neither makes that power "free" in my book!!

Nevertheless, "Solar energy is no more "free" than that derived from say oil" is IMO wrong for the reasons I've outlined. Once you have 'free' solar you aren't going to think, "Oh, I can run the aircon because it will add another few dollars to my power bill." No, you just whack it up to 11 because there is no additional cost associated with it.

#### mamalala

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2014, 06:51:41 am »
Nevertheless, "Solar energy is no more "free" than that derived from say oil" is IMO wrong for the reasons I've outlined. Once you have 'free' solar you aren't going to think, "Oh, I can run the aircon because it will add another few dollars to my power bill." No, you just whack it up to 11 because there is no additional cost associated with it.

Unless you want to use it when the sun doesn't shine. Then you need some kind of storage for the electricity. And you need to extend generating capacity as well: not only enough to meet actual demand, but some extra to actually recharge the storage. This adds more cost to the system, and maintaining storage can be expensive as well, depending on what type/efficiency chosen.

It's just not a matter of "let me slap some panels on the roof, buy an inverter, and i can disconnect from the grid".

Greetings,

Chris

#### miguelvp

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2014, 07:19:00 am »
There are plenty of solar powered calculators that have been running for decades.

But there is the whole planet that has been solar powered for over 4.5 billion years.

15 years ago a big screen TV will set you back $50,000 couple of years later$10K, now you can get one for under $500. So don't focus too much on the panels, they keep on getting cheaper, but sure, worry that we will get taxed for the sun we use and the air we breathe. Quote If you drive a car, I'll tax the street, If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat. If you get too cold I'll tax the heat, If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet. #### dunkemhigh • Super Contributor • Posts: 1228 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #34 on: July 30, 2014, 08:51:18 am » Quote Unless you want to use it when the sun doesn't shine. Irrelevant. If you can't use it that doesn't suddenly mean you're paying for it! Blimey, just watch those goalposts slide around now Whatever. I've said my bit, clarified a bit, and I'm not about to be drawn any deeper into a war of the Internet faux pedants. The field is all yours #### mamalala • Supporter • Posts: 777 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #35 on: July 30, 2014, 11:13:23 am » Quote Unless you want to use it when the sun doesn't shine. Irrelevant. If you can't use it that doesn't suddenly mean you're paying for it! Blimey, just watch those goalposts slide around now Nonsense. It was you who made the initial comparison: Quote Once you're running, you pay no more (or less) regardless of how much electricity you use (or don't use). That is vastly different to the costs associated with normal delivery, where you pay continuously, and the amount you pay depends on how much you use. Thing is, if you want to compare energy sources, you have to consider what it takes to get them to an equal service quality. Fossil fuels and nuclear can run 24/7. That means you need to to compare to a solar or wind based system that can also deliver 24/7. And to get to that you need way more than just a bunch of panels and an inverter. Anything else is utterly dishonest. I'm not saying that wind and solar can not provide the same quality of service. Just that it requires way more than just putting up some panels and turbines. Therefore any calculation that only considers the cost for panels, turnines and inverters has little connection to reality. Greetings, Chris #### miguelvp • Super Contributor • Posts: 5549 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #36 on: July 30, 2014, 11:48:23 am » The original point is that solar is freely available and it was used just as an example that not all "free energy" means overunity zealous nuts. You don't even need a solar panel, the energy is just there for the taking, use a lens and focus it in your skin, then tell me there is no energy in there. #### max_torque • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 932 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #37 on: July 31, 2014, 12:47:54 am » Also without wishing to be drawn in to a massive pedantry war, my point was really that to call renewables "free" is disingenuous and a trap that many a "man on the street" falls into when discussing energy and it's cost to our society. We have been lucky, that over roughly the last 200 years our society has had access to a vast and low cost supply of energy, namely coal, oil & gas. Those energy stores did not "cost" human beings anything to convert and store. "Mother Nature" had spend several millions of years (whilst we were all busy evolving ;-) taking solar energy from the sun, and packing it into a convenient and highly energy dense form. We did not have to "pay" her to do that. That easy accessibility and high energy density meant that the industrial revolution, and our subsequent addiction to massive low efficiency energy consumption, has unfortunately started to come to an end. Supplies of conventional fuels are starting to become harder to find (and hence more costly to extract) and we have started to realise that there could be a large environmental impact to our incredibly rapid consumption of those fuels. For the average "man on the street" it's easy to say "just use solar power, it's free" because they fail to understand that for ALL energy sources it is the cost of leveraging those sources that is important and not the cost of the raw materials (which are effectively free, because they are not "owned" by anyone. Solar, wind, wave, geothermal etc etc all require just as much investment to leverage as coal, oil and gas, and often, because they have a lower energy density, they actually cost more. In the case of solar power, you can't just "turn the washing machine on" if that extra load exceeds the generating capability of the system you installed, or indeed if it is a cloudy day. Having a power "grid" and a national generating system that can leverage both economies of scale, and use its wide user base to "load level" (ie, not everyone want to turn their washing machine on at once) has made us lazy, and if we want to replace that capability, it IS going to cost us more money, even if we use "Free" sources of energy like solar power. Ignoring massive "upfront" costs, such as the multi thousand dollar cost of a decent solar system is ridiculous. For example, i you would like to send me$12,000 today, i will happily give you $100 dollars a week for the next 10 years. In the meantime, i shall invest my newly gained$12,000 and be making money on that!

The other issue, is that generally, for a grid supply system, you only pay out money when you use electricity. With say a local solar array, it sits on your rood depreciating regardless of whether you use it or not!

These subtleties and ok, often pedantic nuances, are however really rather important to include when comparing our long term future energy supplies and security!

#### mamalala

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2014, 05:56:32 pm »
No, that's a silly way to compare renewables with other energy sources. You could pick another arbitrary comparison, say ability to respond to load, and point out that nuclear is extremely slow and coal isn't particularly brilliant either. In either case the comparison would be dishonest.

It's a valid comparison, especially if the goal is to switch to renewables  completely, as is the case here in Germany. And it is true, coal and nukes are rather slow when it comes to load changes. Gas is much faster. But they all can deliver at any time when there is demand, since they can run 24/7 (not accounting for service/maintenance time here). Wind and solar can only be used when there is wind and sun, unless you add enough storage.

You can't use renewables the way way you use a nuclear plant. They are not the same, and direct comparison is pointless at best.

If you want to go off grid, battery packs are pretty cheap now. I don't think anyone is advocating self sufficiency though.

Well, and here is the point. Assume you take the simple way with no storage. That means you can only use the energy it produces _when_ it produces any. You still need to be connected to grid for the times where it doesn't produce. This means you still have the same amount of base price for regular electricity, all you save is the kWh's that you can get from a solar installation, for example.

Now, here is the question: If you pay, lets say, 10 thousand Euro upfront for the install, how long would it take you to get even, when compared to using regular electricity? Since, in most places on the world, you have only a few hours of solar available for any decent amount of electricity generation.  Plus, you don't have that all around the year either, winter in Europe and you produce little to nothing.

Projected life time of installed solar panels is between 20 and 30 years nowdays. Let's take the middle and say it's 25 years. That makes 400 Euro per year, or roundabout 33.33 Euro per month. At an average price of 25 Cent per kWh (it's expensive here in Germany), that makes roundabout 133 kWh per month that you must be able to use from that solar installation to break even. And mind you, this assumes 12 "usable" months per year, which is often not the case. The statistical avergae consumption per household is in Germany is about 3359 kWh per year, which results in roughly 280 kWh per month. You can already see that it's almost impossible to get even here throughout the lifetime of the panels.  Thing is that during the time that solar is most productive, people are usually not at home, while the times when most electricity is used in a household is when there is very little to no solar to be useful for PV.

Really, such things have to be considered. I hear things like "sun and wind dont send an invoice" as justification for claiming that it would be super-cheap. But that's just too short sighted a view. To make it really feasible one _must_ include things like storage into the calculation. If i were to install a 10k Euro system here with no storage, and only to use it for myself, it would never ever pay for itself, let alone save me any money. My monthly electricity bill is just too low for that to happen. And i'm working at home, so i'm at home pretty much always. Heck, even if it were only 5k it would be hard to get even. And 5k isn't that much when it has to go into panels, electronics and installation. Oh, and electricity is, as said, expensive over here. For anyone where it costs less, getting even is much harder.

But then, i guess this starting to get way too off-topic here now anyways. It just irks me when people claim that electricity from PV is basically free, and then refuse to consider the details.

Greetings,

Chris

#### Jay_Diddy_B

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2014, 10:29:24 pm »
Group,

We have drifted a little off-topic...

The Kickstarter campaign is 8 days from the end and is getting close ($8,441) to meeting the goal ($10,000) despite all that has been said in the comments on Kickstarter, Hackaday and here on the EEVBlog.

How do we explain people continuing to support this project?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

#### mzzj

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2014, 10:49:24 pm »

How do we explain people continuing to support this project?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein

#### Jay_Diddy_B

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2014, 07:57:03 am »
Hi,

If you look at the project backers you see two distinct groups:

1) The first group has backed 1 or 2 projects.

2) The other group seems to have a project addiction, having backed >30 projects.

Can you get addicted to Kickstarter?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

#### tom66

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2014, 08:01:42 am »
The way many projects go, I think it's a form of gambling addiction...

#### Rasz

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2014, 08:51:35 am »
The way many projects go, I think it's a form of gambling addiction...

shopping addiction is a real thing, things you buy dont matter much, its the trill of the hunt/selecting. 'joy' goes away the moment you pay for said thing, so you go searching for the next one immediately.
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#### josem

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2014, 09:13:34 am »

How do we explain people continuing to support this project?

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

It's not hard to "inject" funds into your own project at least on the US Kickstarter since there's no link between the card and the backer except through Amazon. I know someone who did this in the past because he actually set a too high goal and it was only off by $1000 or so anyway. No one was harmed in that case, but it made me more dubious of KS and some of the insane pledging activity we see sometimes. Normally you'll lose the KS commission on what you put in but successfully funding the project has obvious advantages since you snag the rest of the cash. There's also a way to fund it without actually having the funds or losing any commission but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader. Not saying that's happening here but this project's creator does not seem to lack creativity... Of course this is all against KS rules but, like the projects' credibility, they don't check those that much either. « Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 09:20:26 am by josem » #### hamster_nz • Super Contributor • Posts: 1755 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #45 on: August 01, 2014, 09:14:05 am » How do we explain people continuing to support this project? I am a supporter - for$5. I signed up specifically because of this thread.

a) If kickstarter close it down then it costs me nothing
b) If it crashes and burns tt is cheap entertainment - watching a real life drama unfold.
c) If it actually works (very unlikely, but...) then I helped a little with somebody acheiving his or her dream.

So I skipped a coffee and signed up.

#### Jay_Diddy_B

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2014, 11:12:00 am »
Hi,
I was going to sign up, as new member, so I could comment on the technology. This isn't necessary because some people have made reference to the EEVBlog and Hackaday in the comments.

I hope it doesn't reach the target and everybody gets to keep their money.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

#### Jay_Diddy_B

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2014, 12:18:30 pm »
Hi,

An update has appeared on the Kickstarter website:

Shawn West shows this measurement of capacity:

If this true, it still doesn't solve the problem of charging the battery in 30 seconds.

If this not true, this is blatant fraud.

Jay_Diddy_B

#### jaxbird

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #48 on: August 01, 2014, 01:40:58 pm »
Hi,

An update has appeared on the Kickstarter website:

Shawn West shows this measurement of capacity:

....

If this true, it still doesn't solve the problem of charging the battery in 30 seconds.

If this not true, this is blatant fraud.

Jay_Diddy_B

I think it's made up. Why does he not mention the discharge current in the test?

According to the Energizer spec for his comparison battery (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf) the load used is probably around 250mA. (my guess based on the voltages) So probably his chart spans 10 hours.

With that time span, the single spike looks much too slow, probably 20-30 minutes on his chart between the voltage going to 0V and returning to 1.5V.

#### IanB

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #49 on: August 01, 2014, 01:43:16 pm »
It's entirely impossible to have a horizontal voltage trend like that...
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?

#### jaxbird

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #50 on: August 01, 2014, 01:50:00 pm »
It's entirely impossible to have a horizontal voltage trend like that...

No it's using internal regulator, so it would be flat. However it appears to be linear (!) from the pictures posted.

#### miguelvp

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2014, 02:35:14 pm »
It's entirely impossible to have a horizontal voltage trend like that...

Not if the cap is at a higher voltage (3.8V) and rectified to the 1.5V output like he claims he does. He mentioned in the video @1:38 that when the voltage drops to 2.2 volts it will damage the cap, so the logic inside shuts it off when the cap is at 2.3V. I'm not saying it's all in the open and will work.

Also, $10K is hardly a scammer's target, I think he wholeheartedly believes what he is doing but made a couple of mistakes. I think the whole Graphene is BS and a cover up for his mistake. If you look here in page 5: http://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/LICpresentationforstorage20131110.PDF His specs point to: LIC2540R 3R8277, but that has 25mm in diameter. A AA battery has the following dimensions: 49.2–50.5 mm length and 13.5–14.5 mm in diameter. So he can only use LIC1235R 3R8406 for his AA battery but that only has 40F at 17.77mAh capacitance. when he keeps on quoting the 270F (at 120mAh and he doesn't mention that part) Page 7 has the charge time stated at 30 seconds, also shows capacitance drop of 20% in 10 years. Also it doesn't like hot spaces and it's most happy at 60 degrees Celsius or lower temperature. But there are many problems with the kickstarter even if it was just that one mistake: He is offering AAA batteries too (44.5 mm in length and 10.5 mm) in diameter and there is no supercap of that size by that manufacturer, and of course it will hold less than the 40 Farads He also offers C sized batteries (50 millimeters length and 26.2 millimeters diameter) Now he can use the 270F supercap. And also offers D sized batteries (61.5 millimeters length and 33.2 millimeters diameter). But AA and AAA wont meet his claims so he went for the Graphene escape. The chart, doesn't look fake since the cap might jump back to 2.3V after being shutoff, but he is connecting the data points in a ramp. So he blatantly lied about the 270F cap when he shows in the picture the 40F one that will fit in the casing. His toy demo well, he is just proving that it doesn't discharge in 30 seconds but that doesn't mean it has the same density as a AA battery, his C battery might have the density of a AA battery maybe but can it deliver 6000 mAh that rechargable C batteries can hold? Nope it's only 120 mAh and if you look in his chart, that's where it cuts off. So his battery only holds 1/50th of a fully charged NiMH rechargeable C size battery with a 30 second charge. So if it takes 25 minutes to fully charge the NiMH C size battery there is no gain really, the charge rate is about the same. Sure you can use it quicker but then you have to make sure the device is under 60 degrees celsius if you want the cap to live it's 10 years at which point it will only hold barely 100 mAh of energy. Scam? I don't think so, I think is just plain being naive. But there might be a market for a quick device that only needs to operate for a short amount of time. Phone batteries hold what 2600 mAh and that will last say 12 hours being optimistic? sure you can charge your phone in 30 seconds but it will only give you about an half an hour of battery life (about 1/22th of the real battery) Hmm took too long to post so jaxbird beat me to the regulator thing « Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 02:37:00 pm by miguelvp » #### miguelvp • Super Contributor • Posts: 5549 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #52 on: August 01, 2014, 02:44:57 pm » Also to match the energy needed by a cellphone that uses a small 1200 mAh battery he will need 10 of the big super caps in parallel with diode balancing to be able to charge a phone in 30 seconds, that's a pretty big battery pack. And that will hold the same energy as the 1.5V AA battery he claims he has. #### Rasz • Super Contributor • Posts: 2199 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #53 on: August 02, 2014, 12:31:22 am » So I skipped a coffee and signed up. skip another coffee and join my 'cat videos and brooklyn bridge' project Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck. My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places. #### GeorgeOfTheJungle • Super Contributor • Posts: 1434 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #54 on: August 02, 2014, 02:27:48 am » Nope it's only 120 mAh and if you look in his chart, that's where it cuts off. But the chart says 1.2 Ah not mAh, no? #### miguelvp • Super Contributor • Posts: 5549 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #55 on: August 02, 2014, 03:04:50 am » He also doesn't explain the constant load value used on that chart. #### mikerj • Super Contributor • Posts: 1728 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #56 on: August 02, 2014, 03:26:34 am » Wonder what the quiescent current of the regulator is? Given the very low capacity it won't take an awful lot to have the 'battery' drain itself quite quickly. #### bktemp • Super Contributor • Posts: 1623 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #57 on: August 02, 2014, 05:22:36 am » Using CMOS/mosfet regulators the quiescent current can be in the nA range. There are many ultra low quiescent current LDOs up to 6V input voltage. #### tom66 • Super Contributor • Posts: 3369 • Country: • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #58 on: August 02, 2014, 07:41:42 am » I've seen many switchers with Iq<10nA but that's not for an output that is switching. If the output is switching Iq can be in the 100uA's level, which will drain a supercap quickly, but a li-ion 18650 will last some time. #### jaxbird • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 750 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #59 on: August 02, 2014, 12:34:02 pm » It has now achieved funding. So we will get to follow the progress and see what happens. My guess is 'capacitor company took all the money but didn't deliver' will be the final update. Analog Discovery Projects: http://www.thestuffmade.com Youtube random project videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheStuffMade #### Richard Crowley • Super Contributor • Posts: 4148 • Country: • KE7GKP ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #60 on: August 02, 2014, 12:44:24 pm » My guess is 'capacitor company took all the money but didn't deliver' will be the final update. But at least supporters will have the satisfaction that they kept his kids toys in batteries. #### williefleete • Regular Contributor • Posts: 109 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #61 on: August 04, 2014, 01:37:04 pm » My guess is 'capacitor company took all the money but didn't deliver' will be the final update. along with the company laughing behind his back and throwing the "homebrew" mix in the trash im a picaxe fan particularly the 08M's #### EEVblog • Administrator • Posts: 27699 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #62 on: August 04, 2014, 04:26:41 pm » Like many other projects I think he vastly underestimated the cost and the quality/support people expect. He vastly overestimated his ability to understand what mAh means #### Jay_Diddy_B • Super Contributor • Posts: 1686 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #63 on: August 04, 2014, 10:45:11 pm » Hi, Check the recent comments on Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shawnpwest/30-second-charging-rechargeable-battery/comments Sky, is challenging Shawn West's claims. Regards, Jay_Diddy_B #### jaxbird • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 750 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #64 on: August 05, 2014, 12:08:28 am » Sky, is challenging Shawn West's claims. Shawn seems very defensive in all his comments, like "See, you're trying to start a p*ssing contest. I'm not arguing through comments." and I have addressed it on that blog. And I understand that he is a qualifies engineer but so am I. So, in turn this will just turn in to a "you know what'ing" contest. and I was wonder when you were actually going to begin with the slander. etc. You'd think someone inventing a breakthrough in super capacitor technology would be more proud to share performance details with the world. I know I would. Why doesn't he do a live session demonstrating a few full charge and discharge cycles, with a programmable load, while taking questions? I'm sure that would increase contributions significantly. Kickstarter is going to get hurt by allowing these kind of projects take money from people. Analog Discovery Projects: http://www.thestuffmade.com Youtube random project videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheStuffMade #### miguelvp • Super Contributor • Posts: 5549 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #65 on: August 05, 2014, 12:38:35 am » Well that Sky character keeps posting every hour and many times on each hour. Not sure where his 100 Amps come from but he keeps on linking this thread. Also some other one posted 1150 mAh over 26 seconds will require over 150A. Wouldn't that be more 8.3 Amps? So the challengers sound like nuts in my opinion bringing the name of this blog constantly to the comments. #### Jay_Diddy_B • Super Contributor • Posts: 1686 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #66 on: August 05, 2014, 01:00:26 am » Hi, I estimated a charging current of 73A in the original post of the message. I assumed that the capacitor was 1100F. It is not easy to predict what the charging current will be if the storage device is not a linear capacitor. However, there is a well known concept the Conservation of Energy (one of the laws of physics). If we assume lossless, ideal case, very unlikely: Energy in = Energy out That is the conversion efficiency electrical to chemical, chemical to electrical is 100%. Energy out = 1100 mAh x 1.5V = 1100E-3 x 60 x 60 x 1.5 = 5.9 KJ to replace 5.9 KJ in 30 seconds requires a power of 5900 / 30 = 196 Watts This is the average power over 30 seconds. If the terminal voltage is constant at 3.3V The charging current is 196 / 3.3 = 59 Amps. If the voltage rises from 1.8V to 3.3V during the charging process the current is required is higher. Assuming a capacitor: 5900J = 1/2 x C x V2 max - 1/2 x C x V2 min 5900J = 1/2 x C (V2 max - V2 min) C = 5900J / 1/2 x (V2 max - V2 min) assume: Vmax = 3.3V Vmin = 1.8V C = 5900 / 1/2 x (3.32 - 1.8 2) = 1542 Farads to charge from Vmin to Vmax I= C dv/dt = C x (Vmax - Vmin) / time = 1542 x (3.3 - 1. / 30s = 77 Amps quod erat demonstrandum Regards, Jay_Diddy_B « Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 01:53:00 am by Jay_Diddy_B » #### jaxbird • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 750 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #67 on: August 05, 2014, 01:01:48 am » Well that Sky character keeps posting every hour and many times on each hour. Not sure where his 100 Amps come from but he keeps on linking this thread. Also some other one posted 1150 mAh over 26 seconds will require over 150A. Wouldn't that be more 8.3 Amps? So the challengers sound like nuts in my opinion bringing the name of this blog constantly to the comments. Well, a lot of people with no interest in electronics seem to have problems with the difference between mAh and mA. But assuming 100% efficiency, 1150mAh over 26 seconds requires ~159.23A charge current. Edit: but of course Jay_Diddy_B above is more correct, as the charge and discharge voltages are not the same. However, still a very potent charger is needed. « Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 01:09:11 am by jaxbird » Analog Discovery Projects: http://www.thestuffmade.com Youtube random project videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheStuffMade #### dunkemhigh • Super Contributor • Posts: 1228 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #68 on: August 05, 2014, 01:07:24 am » Quote would be more proud to share performance details with the world. I know I would I wouldn't. Been there, done that, got the ad hom attacks and the threats to buy my product specifically to cause a self-injury and then sue me for my last penny in the courts. I was told that my product didn't work, couldn't work, and would be supremely dangerous if it did anyway. (For the record, it worked very well indeed.) All stated by 'experts' who had never seen it and, from their comments, didn't understand what it did anyway. Of course, some of those experts saw it as a threat to their lucrative trade... This chap's battery thing has more holes than a very holey thing, but that's based on maths and facts. Without those putting the kibosh on it, I would gloss over his comments that you quote because he does have a point, there. Indeed, this whole topic on EEVBlog is here specifically to denounce crowdfunded projects, and even decent projects get roundly slagged off. Think about how this looks to someone outside this elite. #### miguelvp • Super Contributor • Posts: 5549 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #69 on: August 05, 2014, 01:40:37 am » Energy out = 1100 mAh x 1.5V = 1100 x 60 x 60 x 1.5 = 5.9 KJ Wouldnt that be 1.100 x 60 x 60 x 1.5? but the result is right 5.9KJ, the problem is that the formula is wrong. maybe you meant 1.100 Wh x 60 x 60 x 1.5? Edit Nevermind, W = A * V, got it But yeah, I think I do understand the problem. 1.1 Ah is 3960 Coulombs Divided by his claimed 270F will require 14.7 volts to charge that capacitor. I still think he only has a 270F cap that can hold 120mAh or 432 Coulombs Attached specs of the 30 second original charging supercap: Edit: but at that diameter, this will only work on his C size battery. « Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 01:57:46 am by miguelvp » #### miguelvp • Super Contributor • Posts: 5549 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #70 on: August 05, 2014, 05:32:55 am » One more thing, since he mentions in the video that the output gets shut off at 2.3V (because under 2.2V will damage the supercap) He only needs to recharge from a precharged cap. Say his upper range is 3.5V so that will make 1.2V difference might bring those amps down. Also there is an error here? Quote 5900J = 1/2 x C (V2 max - V2 min) C = 5900J / 1/2 x (V2 max - V2 min) should be C = (2 x 5900J) / (V2 max - V2 min) so C = 11800/(12.25 - 5.29) = 11800/6.96 = 1695 Farads 1695*1.2/30 = 67.8 Amps, not much reduction. I still think he doesn't have the 1150mAh storage, he only has 1/10th of that. #### Rasz • Super Contributor • Posts: 2199 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #71 on: August 05, 2014, 06:32:27 am » One more thing, since he mentions in the video that the output gets shut off at 2.3V (because under 2.2V will damage the supercap) no no, that was for Lithium Ion Super Capacitor, his magical quantum dots in the kitchen sink capacitor shouldnt have this property (or any other properties for that matter) Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck. My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places. #### corrado33 • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 250 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #72 on: August 05, 2014, 08:22:23 am » That sky character is quite... persistent and quite frankly, annoying. I'll agree that this project seems like a bunch of BS, but still, no need to continue asking the same questions over and over again. For any of you who backed it, what's update #7? It's for backers only. #### hamster_nz • Super Contributor • Posts: 1755 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #73 on: August 05, 2014, 10:00:03 am » That sky character is quite... persistent and quite frankly, annoying. I'll agree that this project seems like a bunch of BS, but still, no need to continue asking the same questions over and over again. For any of you who backed it, what's update #7? It's for backers only. Nothing much - it is just a pretty much standard "please spread the word" update. #### Jay_Diddy_B • Super Contributor • Posts: 1686 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #74 on: August 06, 2014, 12:11:50 pm » Hi, Time to do a little SPICE simulation on a charger. In my previous messages I ignored the effects of ESR in the capacitor. I have included them in the model: The left side of the model is a constant current / constant voltage charging circuit. As shown the voltage is set to 3.8V and the current to 75A. The right side of the model is 1500F capacitor with an ESR of 10m Ohm. I estimated the ESR at 10m Ohms. The actually ESR is unknown. The capacitor is given an initial voltage of 2.2V Here are the results: When the charging current is applied the terminal voltage of the capacitor jumps by 75A x 10m Ohm = 0.75V to 2.95V. The constant charging current raises the voltage across the capacitor until the maximum voltage of 3.8V is reached. The terminal voltage is now held constant and the current decreases exponentially with CResr time constant. After about 50 seconds the capacitor is fully charged. Some energy is dissipated in the ESR. The simulation that the energy dissipated 1.388 kJ or an average power of 27.8 Watts during the 50 seconds. An average power of 27.8 Watts in something the size of an AA battery for 50 seconds is a lot. If I increase the ESR to 50m Ohms the initial current is limited to 3.8 - 2.2 /0.05 = 32A. The charging current decays exponentially from the initial value. It takes more than 200 seconds for the capacitor charge. You can see from the simulation how the capacitor ESR impacts charging. Regards, Jay_Diddy_B - BSc (Eng) Hons ACGI (Added my credentials for this post in case my education is challenged) « Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 12:20:29 pm by Jay_Diddy_B » #### jaxbird • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 750 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #75 on: August 08, 2014, 02:32:46 am » Just had a look at the latest comments on this project. Now it's promised that the options including charger ($25+) will include a power supply comparable to this:

http://www.trcelectronics.com/View/Mean-Well/SE-1000-5.shtml

That is a $180, 150A PSU! And the original pictured charger setup: Was not meant to in any way represent the circuit of the final product. Unless he is planning to take a$100+ hit on each item sold, I don't see how this is possible.

If he can manufacture and sell a 750W PSU for less than $25, he could just be selling those. Same can be said for his super capacitors. No need to bother with packaging them as batteries. Analog Discovery Projects: http://www.thestuffmade.com Youtube random project videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheStuffMade #### sunnyhighway • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 276 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #76 on: August 08, 2014, 04:08:48 am » http://www.trcelectronics.com/View/Mean-Well/SE-1000-5.shtml (link from his kickstarter comment) That is a$180, 150A PSU!

Lets even say he makes nice casings from scrap plywood he found on the curb or dump.

Now he has to ship this stuff to the backers:

PSU: 2.5 kg
Plywood: 0.75 kg
Mains cable & battery terminals 0.3 kg
AA battery: 0.022 kg
Flimsy shipping box, no padding: 0.25 kg

Total weight: 3,822 kg

I don't know what the shipping costs would be for this, but I guess there won't be much money left for the batteries.

#### echen1024

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2014, 09:39:01 am »

http://www.trcelectronics.com/View/Mean-Well/SE-1000-5.shtml

That is a $180, 150A PSU! Lets say he get's these PSU's for free. Lets even say he makes nice casings from scrap plywood he found on the curb or dump. Now he has to ship this stuff to the backers: PSU: 2.5 kg Plywood: 0.75 kg Mains cable & battery terminals 0.3 kg AA battery: 0.022 kg Flimsy shipping box, no padding: 0.25 kg Total weight: 3,822 kg I don't know what the shipping costs would be for this, but I guess there won't be much money left for the batteries. 3822 grams(?) I'm not saying we should kill all stupid people. I'm just saying that we should remove all product safety labels and let natural selection do its work. http://www.youtube.com/user/echen1024 #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #78 on: August 08, 2014, 11:41:39 am » Not to mention that the final product must meet safety regulations, UL, CSA and whatever the EU has these days, to be imported. Sounds like a fire waiting to happen unless it's thoroughly tested and approved. The minute one of these babies goes up and kills someone, well you get the rest. Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### rob77 • Super Contributor • Posts: 1848 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #79 on: August 09, 2014, 02:02:42 am » I'm tempted to throw in$25 for the PSU alone, with free shipping to the UK and some high spec capacitors thrown in.

throwing the $25 out of the window would be much more efficient you would at least make someone happy who'll find that$25

#### Ryano

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #80 on: August 09, 2014, 02:04:00 am »
I'm tempted to throw in $25 for the PSU alone, with free shipping to the UK and some high spec capacitors thrown in. I just did that very thing. Not that I think I will ever see anything from it, but it's relatively cheap entertainment! « Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 02:08:09 am by Ryano » #### Jay_Diddy_B • Super Contributor • Posts: 1686 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #81 on: August 09, 2014, 02:21:21 am » +1 I signed up for$25.00

I am not even sure of there are enough of these surplus power supplies to go round.

At the moment there are 377 backers, 81 are at level where you don't get a charger, so Shawn has to find 296 chargers at the moment. There are 5 hours left in the campaign.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

#### jaxbird

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #82 on: August 09, 2014, 02:21:33 am »
I'm tempted to throw in $25 for the PSU alone, with free shipping to the UK and some high spec capacitors thrown in. Spend it on something tangible instead There seems to be a pattern of each time someone calls out the major issues in this project, the project owner "spills the beans" and "admits" what he previously showed is not at all what the final product will be like. E.g. commercial lithium capacitor vs. incredible home brew graphene capacitor and normal to220 regulator based charger vs high A switchmode. I'm sure if someone convinced him that a nuclear reactor was needed, he would spill the beans again and "admit" he had a working prototype in his garage. I think the conclusion is: A) the man is an incredible genius, his contributions will change the world as we know it. B) he is a pathological liar. C) he is a fraud who will say whatever it takes to bag the money. D) he is a good guy, but desperately needs$10k+ for some very urgent purpose.

You choose

#### sunnyhighway

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #83 on: August 09, 2014, 04:07:36 am »
Did some mathematics on the prices of the perks.

1 charger + 1 AA battery   = $25 1 charger + 2 AA batteries =$50
1 charger + 4 AA batteries = $100 Simplifying these equations would lead to: 1 charger =$0

I stand to be corrected, my mathematic skills could be a bit rusty.

#### Quarlo Klobrigney

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #84 on: August 09, 2014, 04:11:46 am »
One from column B, one from column C IMHO.

A) the man is an incredible genius, his contributions will change the world as we know it.
B) he is a pathological liar.
C) he is a fraud who will say whatever it takes to bag the money.
D) he is a good guy, but desperately needs $10k+ for some very urgent purpose. Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### Jay_Diddy_B • Super Contributor • Posts: 1686 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #85 on: August 09, 2014, 04:17:09 am » Did some mathematics on the prices of the perks. 1 charger + 1 AA battery =$25
1 charger + 2 AA batteries = $50 1 charger + 4 AA batteries =$100

Simplifying these equations would lead to: 1 charger = $0 I stand to be corrected, my mathematic skills could be a bit rusty. It is better to order the$25.00 pledge 4 times, that way you get 4 chargers.

Jay_Diddy_B

#### jaxbird

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2014, 04:25:54 am »
Did some mathematics on the prices of the perks.

1 charger + 1 AA battery   = $25 1 charger + 2 AA batteries =$50
1 charger + 4 AA batteries = $100 Simplifying these equations would lead to: 1 charger =$0

I stand to be corrected, my mathematic skills could be a bit rusty.

I dare to guess that he originally estimated the cost of a charger equal to that of a cheap 7805 (without any caps!)  hence the simplicity of the original charger pictured

#### miguelvp

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #87 on: August 09, 2014, 04:48:03 am »
If he has the power supplies and he is not there to make money from the kickstarter then it makes more sense. He might be even loose some money but at least he will try to get his product out and wait to see if it gets traction.

If he planned to get $10K or$15K that's not a lot of money to get to ruin your reputation in the future. So I doubt he has malicious intents. Maybe naive? we will see.

#### jaxbird

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #88 on: August 09, 2014, 05:18:55 am »
If he has the power supplies and he is not there to make money from the kickstarter then it makes more sense. He might be even loose some money but at least he will try to get his product out and wait to see if it gets traction.

If he planned to get $10K or$15K that's not a lot of money to get to ruin your reputation in the future. So I doubt he has malicious intents. Maybe naive? we will see.

I always admire optimism and seeing the best in people

Unfortunately I don't work like that, but I bet you must be a lot more happy and free of worries

#### jaxbird

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #89 on: August 09, 2014, 05:36:26 am »
For those not following the campaign directly, here is the latest update from Shawn:

Ok, now that the Kickstarter campaign is coming to a close, I've got a better idea of the timeline for production and shipping.

Within 2 weeks of August 8th, I'll have the power supplies for the chargers and the PCB's and all of the components for the PCB will be ordered and then sent off to have the reflow soldering done. Soldering of the capacitor to the PCB will be done seperately due to the fact that reflow would short the capacitor.

Near the end of August, the battery holders will be mated to the power supplies. The battery casing will also go in to production at a local machine shop. The battery case is made of 31/64" brass tube. When I say production, I mean cutting tubing to size and deburring the rough edges.

Capacitors will arrive in early to mid September and they'll be mated to the PCB. After that, everything is assembled and packaged for shipping. With every shipment, I will be included a list of general precautions to take. Nothing too terribly serious. More or less, don't throw the batteries in a fire, don't solder directly to them, don't eat them, etc. If anyone has any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Thanks again to all the backers out there!

Lots more 'free' entertainment to come I predict.

#### Rasz

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #90 on: August 09, 2014, 07:25:57 am »
I signed up for $25.00 sucker Quote so Shawn has to find 296 chargers at the moment no, he doesnt. All he has to do is count money some idiots send him. It is better to order the$25.00 pledge 4 times, that way you get 4 chargers.

you get four bags full of dicks

shipping of WHAT?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 09:23:19 am by Rasz »
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.

#### Jay_Diddy_B

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #91 on: August 09, 2014, 07:51:18 am »
+1

I signed up for $25.00 I am not even sure of there are enough of these surplus power supplies to go round. At the moment there are 377 backers, 81 are at level where you don't get a charger, so Shawn has to find 296 chargers at the moment. There are 5 hours left in the campaign. I am not expecting too much. I will be able to add comments to the Kickstarter. Regards, Jay_Diddy_B Group members do not worry, I have not lost my mind. I cancelled my pledge before the campaign was over. In addition to all the concerns that have been raised here already, I was concerned that IF he shipped one of the power supplies to you, I would get a bill from FedEx for customs paperwork. The fact that the guy cutting the tubes to length is going to ship them on his FedEx account might be true, but I sure he will not be picking up the bill. It makes no sense at all. The guy *may* have offered to do that if he was shipping a few AA batteries, but not the heavy duty charger required. The talk of charging through a Zener diode, in the recent comments doesn't make any sense at all. If Shawn had tried this he would have found that diode would have failed very quickly. The timelines given for the production are unrealistic. We saw how Dave executed the successful uCurrent Campaign, and this should be a benchmark on how to run a successful project. In Dave's case he had a well designed and proven product at the start. It will be interesting to watch how this plays out. From what I can see the costs are going far exceed the amount that was pledged. Regards, Jay_Diddy_B #### ziq8tsi • Regular Contributor • Posts: 79 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #92 on: August 09, 2014, 09:05:57 am » The talk of charging through a Zener diode, in the recent comments doesn't make any sense at all. If Shawn had tried this he would have found that diode would have failed very quickly. Indeed. Perhaps the guy Frode who originally proposed a Zener was thinking of a Schottky. Either way he said it several times, and none of the other backers corrected him, so Shawn eventually agreed: Quote @Frode I apologize for not answering you earlier. There is a 1500 watt, surface mount zener diode contained inside. I'm trying to locate the exact model number if the diode. Somewhere in my email I've got the sample request form from the company I got them from. Since then it has been pointed out that a Zener is the wrong type, and that any diode will get way too hot. So Shawn has backtracked slightly, admitting that the Zener was not the best choice. "It was just the highest power diode I was able to locate, so I used it." He is literally making this shit up as he goes along. #### Jay_Diddy_B • Super Contributor • Posts: 1686 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #93 on: August 09, 2014, 09:59:46 am » Hi, Just a quick comment on the Littelfuse diode. When they say a transient voltage suppressor diode is rated for 1500W, they mean that it is rated for 1500W for 1ms as shown in this graph, taken from the Littelfuse 1.5SMC series datasheet: In addition, the 1500W rating is for device in avalanche. The forward rating is given here on the datasheet: Note: at 100A the forward voltage drop is 3.5V. A surface mount Schottky diode, like a B520 from Diodes Inc, has a non-repetitive peak surge current of a 100A for a single-half cycle (8.3ms) at 60 Hz. So a Schottky diode would also fail under the conditions required to charge a 1500F capacitor from 1.8V to 3.8V in 30 seconds. There is no doubt in my mind that the diode would fail if subjected to the charging currents. It is obvious that Shawn hasn't tried this. Regards, Jay_Diddy_B « Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 10:02:34 am by Jay_Diddy_B » #### Ryano • Regular Contributor • Posts: 50 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #94 on: August 14, 2014, 01:12:12 am » I'm expecting the announcement of version 3 any day now! BBC News "Hemp fibres 'better than graphene" http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-28770876 At least when the thing blows up the first time you charge it you'll have a good time and still get your moneys worth.** ** Yes, I know the difference between hemp fiber and marijuana. That was meant as a joke and should be used for entertainment purposes only. #### george graves • Super Contributor • Posts: 1259 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #95 on: August 16, 2014, 08:34:18 pm » Still, worth it if he delivers the 150A power supply. I hope people hold him to that. LOL. I'll give you a dollar if he does. It's not going to happen. So this campaign....$18k for a bad video and an idea.  Not a bad clean up on his end.  Let's say 40 hours of his time. $450 per hour. (honestly - I think this guy really believes it what he's doing) If he was smart, he would have gotten ABC, NBC, CNN to interview him. I wish I had no morals. I'd totally start the "SOLAR FREAKING DILDOS " kickstarter. There are millions of sex toys with that can harness energy ..Why not put solar cells on top of it? « Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 08:44:27 pm by george graves » #### GeorgeOfTheJungle • Super Contributor • Posts: 1434 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #96 on: August 16, 2014, 09:10:23 pm » (honestly - I think this guy really believes it what he's doing) I don't think so. Perhaps because I've come across too many like him in my life. Some even have a PhD: the university in España is the biggest kickstarter ever: they propose multi-million dollar projects no matter how bizarre in order to get funds to waste in the gadgets they want and to travel to the places they like. I'm not saying all, but almost, of these projects despite being clearly scams get funded. #### electrophiliate • Regular Contributor • Posts: 71 • Country: • Eternal Novice ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #97 on: August 17, 2014, 01:25:03 pm » Something is definitely off about this project. As others have already explained in detail, the alleged capacitance and the charging currents required to meet the claimed performance are simply impractical, based on what he has presented so far. It could be a scam, but after reading the description and comments, part of me wonders if he has mostly underestimated what is involved, didn't do enough homework or prototyping before taking it to Kickstarter, made too many overly optimistic assumptions, and is just improvising in response to criticism as he goes along. A few of the backers don't even care if the project has a poor chance of success, they are supporting the guy having a go. I can understand that spirit on some level in general but in this case I'm just not feeling it. The project seems amateurish rather than [crazy genius doing something great with minimal resources]. Dave's uCurrent GOLD was a good example of a worthy Kickstarter project, and many of us received a decent measurement instrument out of it. I doubt anyone will be receiving their special graphene batteries, or the discounted 150A charger, as promised. At best the backers may end up with a battery of much reduced capacity which can be charged relatively quickly on lower currents but only be useful for low power devices for a relatively short time. Such a battery may have some uses if charging time must be rapid. « Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 01:38:46 pm by electrophiliate » Nothing is quite like a great humming power-station. #### Jay_Diddy_B • Super Contributor • Posts: 1686 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #98 on: August 27, 2014, 10:13:21 am » Hi Group, There is an update posted today. It is for backers only. Anybody want to share? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shawnpwest/30-second-charging-rechargeable-battery/posts Regards, Jay_Diddy_B #### hamster_nz • Super Contributor • Posts: 1755 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #99 on: August 27, 2014, 02:04:28 pm » Hi Group, There is an update posted today. It is for backers only. Anybody want to share? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shawnpwest/30-second-charging-rechargeable-battery/posts Regards, Jay_Diddy_B If you didn't pay for your ticket, you don't get to ride on the bus.... :-) #### Rasz • Super Contributor • Posts: 2199 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #100 on: August 28, 2014, 12:36:28 am » If you didn't pay for your ticket, you don't get to ride on the SUCKER bus.... :-) Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck. My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places. #### Ryano • Regular Contributor • Posts: 50 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #101 on: August 28, 2014, 01:28:10 am » Nothing too exciting. Just a rehash of the production timeline. Quote Hey everyone! I sincerely apologize for it being a while since updating. First off, I'd like to thank each and every one of you for your pledge and each and every day is more and more exciting as things start moving forward. Amazon finally unlocked the funds on Saturday. Those of you that don't know, at the end of the campaign, Amazon holds all of the funds for 15 days before allowing me to transfer any of it. Now, I'm waiting for the transfer to go to my bank account so I can begin getting everything ordered and paid for and that transfer will most likely be complete tomorrow morning. The capacitors began production shortly after the end of the campaign and should be here within the next couple of weeks. The power supplies are awaiting me to come and pay for them and pick them up. Over the last couple of weeks, I've sent off the eagle files to have the circuit boards etched and cut. I'm estimating that I'll have those as well as all components sent off to be reflow soldered within 10 days. I've also begun designing a website so that I can offer the batteries to the general public within hopefully 4 to 6 months. Anyways, if anyone has any questions or comments, please don't hesitate to contact me! Thanks again everyone and I promise you'll be seeing more and more updates as we move forward! Regards, Shawn West #### tom66 • Super Contributor • Posts: 3369 • Country: • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #102 on: August 28, 2014, 06:57:07 am » Hey everyone! I sincerely apologize for it being a while since updating. Partying hard, where did the time go? First off, I'd like to thank each and every one of you suckers for your pledge and each and every day is more and more exciting as things start moving nowhere. Amazon finally unlocked the funds on Saturday. Those of you that don't know, at the end of the campaign, Amazon holds all of the funds for 15 days before allowing me to transfer any of it so I couldn't run away with it immediately. Now, I'm waiting for the transfer to go to my bank account so I can begin getting everything ordered and paid for, including the plane tickets to the Bahamas, and that transfer will most likely be complete tomorrow morning so I will be getting the next flight that day. The capacitors won't begin production at all after the end of the campaign and the vaporware should be here within the next couple of weeks. The power supplies are awaiting me to come and pay for them and pick them up even though I've not yet received the funds to buy them. Over the last couple of weeks, I've sent off the eagle files to have the circuit boards etched and cut because I'm a sadist and like watching PCBs bleed. I'm estimating that I'll have those as well as all components sent off to be reflow soldered within 10 days. I've also begun designing a website to waste some more time waiting for my flight so that I can offer the batteries to the general public within hopefully 4 to 6 lifetimes. Anyways, if anyone has any questions or comments, please don't try to contact me! I won't answer! Thanks again everyone for all the dollar dollar bills and I promise you'll be seeing less and less updates as we move forward! Regards, Shawn Gone-east « Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 07:02:47 am by tom66 » #### BartManInNZ • Contributor • Posts: 46 • A Geek In New Zealand ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #103 on: August 28, 2014, 07:49:22 am » "If you want to build a ship, don't herd people together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea." - Antoine de Saint Exupery #### miguelvp • Super Contributor • Posts: 5549 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #104 on: August 28, 2014, 07:53:26 am »$18K is not enough to run away with, so my guess is that he is working on actually delivering.
He didn't have to even update yet, so doing so should mean he is actually getting things done regardless how the product turns out.

#### hamster_nz

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #105 on: August 28, 2014, 08:13:53 am »
If you didn't pay for your ticket, you don't get to ride on the SUCKER bus.... :-)
I only got a $5 ticket because I am interested in seeing how it plays out... #### CanadianAvenger • Regular Contributor • Posts: 178 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #106 on: August 28, 2014, 01:56:19 pm » I'm waiting for the update where he explains how he burnt down his house while trying to pump 150A through a 7805 to charge the cell in 30s. #### electrophiliate • Regular Contributor • Posts: 71 • Country: • Eternal Novice ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #107 on: August 28, 2014, 03:21:34 pm »$18K is enough for a sweet holiday with the family, or to help pay off a debt.
Nothing is quite like a great humming power-station.

#### miguelvp

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #108 on: August 28, 2014, 05:15:19 pm »
$18K is enough for a sweet holiday with the family, or to help pay off a debt.$18K is probably more than your company pays for you other than your salary. You really think this is an elaborate scheme for him to take his family on vacation? and if he is that desperate  he might as well use it for the mortgage payment, food and utilities, but that might buy him 4 months? Nah, I think he has a regular job and he truly believes on what he is doing.

I didn't contribute and really for $25 I could have seen where this is going, but we all will get to see what happens at the end. The thing is that if he was trying to just take the money and run, he wouldn't have to actually post an update at all, it's better to just say nothing than to push when noone is asking you about pushing. Wait and see what he delivers, for what I can tell some people here actually paid for a battery (and the charger) so we will see what happens. My take is that these caps will only hold 1/10th of the life of a battery if they are lucky, maybe just 1% but since they are funded, just wait and see how it unrolls #### electrophiliate • Regular Contributor • Posts: 71 • Country: • Eternal Novice ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #109 on: August 28, 2014, 08:48:52 pm » You really think this is an elaborate scheme for him to take his family on vacation? [etc] Probably not (although not outside the realm of possibility), but$18K is still a nice little sum for a few hours work on the internet and in the workshop. I don't really know what to think about it and will be keeping an eye on this thread for developments just in case it isn't a scam or wishful thinking.

I did suggest in a previous post that part of me thinks that despite the sloppiness it is a sincere attempt which most likely will end up delivering only a small fraction of what was promised. However, it is also understandable why others posting on this thread have taken a much more cynical view.
Nothing is quite like a great humming power-station.

#### EEVblog

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #110 on: August 28, 2014, 09:59:09 pm »
Nah, I think he has a regular job and he truly believes on what he is doing.

It's clear that he does believe in it, it's not a scam for money.
He will try and deliver something, shame it won't be the stated capacity that charges in the stated time.

Quote
My take is that these caps will only hold 1/10th of the life of a battery if they are lucky, maybe just 1% but since they are funded, just wait and see how it unrolls

There is a chance that he'll get the claimed capacity, but even if he does he is just clueless about the physics required to charge it from flat in the claimed 30 seconds, that will never happen.

#### Artlav

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #111 on: August 29, 2014, 01:54:37 am »
I wish I had no morals.  I'd totally start the "SOLAR FREAKING DILDOS " kickstarter.  There are millions of sex toys with that can harness energy ..Why not put solar cells on top of it?
Or a propeller and a guidance system.
Solar freaking flying homing dildos.
Hacking the universe since 2008
Having a life since 2013

#### Jay_Diddy_B

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2014, 10:53:15 pm »
Hi group,

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

#### george graves

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #113 on: September 27, 2014, 10:44:40 am »
I wish I had no morals.  I'd totally start the "SOLAR FREAKING DILDOS " kickstarter.  There are millions of sex toys with that can harness energy ..Why not put solar cells on top of it?
Or a propeller and a guidance system.
Solar freaking flying homing dildos.

Dude, that was like 10 years ago.

#### extide

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #114 on: October 01, 2014, 07:13:36 am »
Anyone hear any updates on this yet?

#### tom66

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #115 on: October 01, 2014, 07:44:14 am »
I bet he is realizing just how screwed he really is, and how much it will cost him from his own pocket to actually deliver.

He is not screwed. He has $18000 more than when he started and will not deliver a single item. Ergo, he's about$18k richer than before.

#### Rasz

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #116 on: October 01, 2014, 11:45:35 am »
I bet he is realizing just how screwed he really is, and how much it will cost him from his own pocket to actually deliver.

He is not screwed. He has $18000 more than when he started and will not deliver a single item. Ergo, he's about$18k richer than before.

very much this
crowdsourcing is often just a tax on stupid
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.

#### EEVblog

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #117 on: October 01, 2014, 12:17:52 pm »
I'd be willing to bet a lot of backers would be happy just to get the capacitor that was supposed to come in weeks ago.
Send them out, get some independent tests and prove it works as claimed. Save for that pesky 100+ amp charging requirement due to the laws of physics.

#### GeorgeOfTheJungle

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #118 on: October 01, 2014, 07:37:39 pm »

Seems unwise if planning to simply scam people out of money.

The best scammers are the ones you don't see coming. Though how could anyone not see this one coming is beyond me.

#### tom66

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #119 on: October 01, 2014, 07:44:33 pm »
Easy enough to change your name - assuming that actually is his.

#### Rasz

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #120 on: October 02, 2014, 03:27:30 pm »
He is not screwed. He has $18000 more than when he started and will not deliver a single item. Ergo, he's about$18k richer than before.

I don't know... "Shawn West" will forever be associated with this scam if he doesn't deliver something, and at best his failure will be very public for the rest of his life. Maybe he can change his name, but he posted pictures of himself and his family on Kickstarter. Seems unwise if planning to simply scam people out of money.

what scam? he had ground breaking technology, but was stopped by the 'establishment', by energy cartels and aliens, but if you help him out one more time in his new venture you too can be a part of revolution!!1!7one
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.

#### electrophiliate

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #121 on: October 02, 2014, 05:57:19 pm »
Funded for nearly 2 months and no updates in 6 weeks.

Speaking of which, what's internet access like in the Caribbean Islands?

I'm still sort of fence sitting on whether its either a scampaign or a case of overestimation, but the bio isn't helping much (bold emphasis mine):

Quote
I'm a 32 year old father. I'm a computer and electrical engineer and was formerly an IT Specialist and Human Resources Information Management Specialist in the US Army. Not a day goes by that I don't come up with some crazy new idea, however I think I finally discovered one that is of some use. My friends tell me I'm the nicest person they know and that they could trust me with anything. I hope you'll trust me here to develop something that could create ease and...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shawnpwest/30-second-charging-rechargeable-battery/creator_bio

Based on what we have seen so far I have difficulty believing that he is an electrical engineer in the usual sense of the word.

And because of that, the spiel about trust makes me suspicious.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 06:00:42 pm by electrophiliate »
Nothing is quite like a great humming power-station.

#### mzzj

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #122 on: October 02, 2014, 07:13:34 pm »
He is not screwed. He has $18000 more than when he started and will not deliver a single item. Ergo, he's about$18k richer than before.

I don't know... "Shawn West" will forever be associated with this scam if he doesn't deliver something, and at best his failure will be very public for the rest of his life. Maybe he can change his name, but he posted pictures of himself and his family on Kickstarter. Seems unwise if planning to simply scam people out of money.

I don't think he means to scam anyone, he genuinely wants to deliver. It's just that he can't, because the laws of physics get in the way, and somehow he now has to salvage the situation and his reputation.
Plus you can find his alleged working place information etc in facepalmbook.

I really hope that "Lee Aerospace of Kansas " doesn't make any passenger airplane parts if their engineer are of this calibre....

#### cloudscapes

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #123 on: October 05, 2014, 03:46:00 am »
Marketing 101. Stretch the truth as far as possible before it becomes "lie". He might've messed around with electronics as a kid/teen. Maybe with those spring 50-in-1 kits. Or maybe he used those pluggable arduino kits (it seems you need almost 0 electronics knowledge to fool with arduino).

#### DarkStar

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #124 on: October 08, 2014, 07:26:07 am »
I really hope that "Lee Aerospace of Kansas " doesn't make any passenger airplane parts if their engineer are of this calibre....

Luckily he isn't an engineer there... His title is "Materials Support - Receiving." AKA, the guy that works in the mailroom...
--Chris ^_^

#### GeorgeOfTheJungle

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #125 on: October 08, 2014, 08:37:50 am »
I really hope that "Lee Aerospace of Kansas " doesn't make any passenger airplane parts if their engineer are of this calibre....

Luckily he isn't an engineer there... His title is "Materials Support - Receiving." AKA, the guy that works in the mailroom...

Aerospace replacement parts, if in the bad hands, are a risky business:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_5390
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 10:07:59 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »

#### BigDogGuru

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #126 on: October 10, 2014, 06:42:58 am »

Funded for nearly 2 months and no updates in 6 weeks.

Speaking of which, what's internet access like in the Caribbean Islands?

I'm still sort of fence sitting on whether its either a scampaign or a case of overestimation, but the bio isn't helping much (bold emphasis mine):

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/shawnpwest/30-second-charging-rechargeable-battery/creator_bio

Based on what we have seen so far I have difficulty believing that he is an electrical engineer in the usual sense of the word.

And because of that, the spiel about trust makes me suspicious.

After reexamining the bio page, which seems to indicate the individual known as "Shawn West" last logged on August 26, 2014, which coincides with the "Update #15, Finally (Final) an Update - For Backers Only,"  I'm leaning towards a blatant intentional scam.

The old adage, "If it is too good to be true, then it probably is!" seems appropriate, a bit of the White Van Scam for the Internet Age.

I seriously doubt whether any of the backers will ever hear from "Shawn West" again.

#### Jay_Diddy_B

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #127 on: October 10, 2014, 11:42:23 pm »
Hi,
Here is the latest comment from the Kickstarter website:

It does not look good for this project.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 11:45:37 pm by Jay_Diddy_B »

#### electrophiliate

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #128 on: October 11, 2014, 05:58:41 pm »
The latest comments on Kickstarter are a very bad sign. It always seemed too good to be true: cutting edge technology being delivered from an amateurish workshop, by someone who seemed to have trouble grasping the relevant basics, despite claiming to be an experienced electrical engineer who we can trust. I was previously undecided on whether it was a scampaign or overestimation, but the bio page in context made me more doubtful, and the latest comments on Kickstarter strongly suggest it was an outright scam.

Reminds me of South Park's recent episode about Kickstarter projects and startup companies which don't do anything:

In the (increasingly unlikely) event that he was sincere and has realized the project cannot be completed as promised ...

https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter

Quote
What should creators do if they're having problems completing their project?

If problems come up, creators are expected to post a Project Update (which is emailed to all backers) explaining the situation. Sharing the story, speed bumps and all, is crucial. Most backers support projects because they want to see something happen and they'd like to be a part of it. Creators who are honest and transparent will usually find backers to be understanding.

It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.

If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers.

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

Can Kickstarter refund the money if a project is unable to fulfill?

No. Kickstarter doesn't issue refunds, as transactions are between backers and the creator. In fact, Kickstarter never has the funds at all. When a project is successfully funded, money is transferred directly from backers' credit cards to the project creator's Amazon Payments account. It's up to the creator to issue a refund, which they can do through their Amazon Payments account. (Like PayPal, Amazon Payments allows refunds for 60 days from the date of charge. After 60 days, creators cannot reverse the same charge to backers' credit cards, so to issue refunds they'll need to initiate a new transaction to send money via Amazon Payments or PayPal, send backers a check, or use another method. Our support team has guided creators in how to issue refunds like these before.)
Nothing is quite like a great humming power-station.

#### tom66

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #129 on: October 11, 2014, 07:25:43 pm »
What is his phone number? Others should call him up and ask.

#### george graves

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #130 on: October 11, 2014, 08:53:26 pm »
Quote
If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers.

I take it "Sorry, I didn't know this boat would cost this much" is a valid reason.

#### Richard Crowley

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #131 on: October 11, 2014, 10:00:00 pm »
What is his phone number? Others should call him up and ask.
Did you miss the part where he hangs up on you. And doesn't return any calls?  Do you have any suggestions for an opening line that will engage him in dialog?

IMHO, this is simply just another case of a a wanna-be dilletente who doesn't perceive what he doesn't know proposing an impossible project. He isn't the first and won't be the last. It is the reaction of all the "supports and backers" (or perhaps "blind believers") that appears more entertaining to me.

#### Rasz

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #132 on: October 11, 2014, 11:05:47 pm »
I was previously undecided on whether it was a scampaign or overestimation, but the bio page in context made me more doubtful, and the latest comments on Kickstarter strongly suggest it was an outright scam.

HOW? EVERYONE with a clue knew from the start, there was even a big post on hackaday, this campaign started with lies, how can you expect anything other than a scam from a person that starts conversation by lying to your face?

https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter

this is hilarious, thosea are all NON LEGALLY BINDING SUGGESTIONS

What is his phone number? Others should call him up and ask.

You would be more successful calling up his Mom, or employer.
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.

#### cloudscapes

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #133 on: October 12, 2014, 12:14:00 am »
If he put up his legit phone number, then I don't think there was any malicious scam. More like cluelessness in what he was diving into, and now just dropping it as reality sinks in.

#### tom66

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #134 on: October 12, 2014, 04:34:24 am »
I think just because people shouldn't be able to get away with this.

If he suddenly realises that he's unable to continue with this, he must issue refunds as soon as possible from whatever funds remain. (Even a 90% refund would probably be good enough for most backers.)

It's ridiculous that so many hardware kickstarters end with nothing delivered, empty promises, etc. It's the modern day swindle.

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #135 on: October 12, 2014, 04:08:01 pm »
Don't know if this has been pointed out yet:

About 1/2 way down.  Do a search for "west"
I didn't take it apart.
I turned it on.

The only stupid question is, well, most of them...

Save a fuse...Blow an electrician.

#### marcan

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• If it ain't broke I'll fix it anyway.
##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #136 on: October 12, 2014, 05:45:59 pm »
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/operation-baby

Looks like he tried to crowdfund his child before trying for magical batteries...

#### Quarlo Klobrigney

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #137 on: October 14, 2014, 04:44:11 am »
And still has no concept of a spellchecker... "hematoma on the placenta, the dotor has recommended"
Whatever a dotor is...
Sir you are a scam artist, in as much as my nose can tell me.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/operation-baby
Looks like he tried to crowdfund his child before trying for magical batteries...
Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go.

#### Richard Crowley

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #138 on: October 14, 2014, 10:21:44 am »
So how do you PROVE to a judge and/or jury that he "had no intention".
His prose and photos fooled even "experts" in THIS forum.  Good luck with that!

He may have thought himself to be quite sinscere. He may have some mental problem.

When was the last time ANYBODY produced a product or a process that "broke the laws of physics"?

#### timb

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #139 on: October 14, 2014, 10:22:03 am »

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/operation-baby

Looks like he tried to crowdfund his child before trying for magical batteries...

$1500?! Man, coat hangers are practically free! Sent from my Smartphone Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF. #### Skimask • Super Contributor • Posts: 1425 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #140 on: October 14, 2014, 10:29:54 am » https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/operation-baby Looks like he tried to crowdfund his child before trying for magical batteries...$1500?! Man, coat hangers are practically free!

Sent from my Smartphone

Funny...

Raw, but funny nonetheless...
I didn't take it apart.
I turned it on.

The only stupid question is, well, most of them...

Save a fuse...Blow an electrician.

#### miguelvp

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #141 on: October 14, 2014, 10:45:59 am »
Of course it has not been hard for anyone in the past decade and people have not lost their homes and savings and struggled. For those unaffected is a bit cruel to even indicate that someone that was affected and had to consolidate not to loose their home are up to no good.

If my company shutdown and I was unemployed for say a couple of years, I would have to sell my home to avoid paying the mortgage that I couldn't afford on odd jobs or minimum wage, but since no one could sell their house because of all the ones foreclosing brought the price down to less than what you owe on the home and once you consolidate you can't even qualify for food stamps because your car that you can't sell because it's under the trustee is too new so even if you paid very high taxes in the past you can't get a break. And on top of that if you have a kid for whatever reason you are supposed to do  home abortion?

You don't know him and neither do I, so I have no idea why he went into debt, but the situation above has happened to many in the US. Stuck with high payments and going into the abyss. It was never about living above one means it's that the means went away for a lot of people. The fact that he did a consolidation bankruptcy will tell you that at least he was willing to fight instead of giving up

So that joke is not only cruel but of pretty bad taste.

#### timb

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #142 on: October 14, 2014, 12:02:07 pm »
Of course it has not been hard for anyone in the past decade and people have not lost their homes and savings and struggled. For those unaffected is a bit cruel to even indicate that someone that was affected and had to consolidate not to loose their home are up to no good.

If my company shutdown and I was unemployed for say a couple of years, I would have to sell my home to avoid paying the mortgage that I couldn't afford on odd jobs or minimum wage, but since no one could sell their house because of all the ones foreclosing brought the price down to less than what you owe on the home and once you consolidate you can't even qualify for food stamps because your car that you can't sell because it's under the trustee is too new so even if you paid very high taxes in the past you can't get a break. And on top of that if you have a kid for whatever reason you are supposed to do  home abortion?

You don't know him and neither do I, so I have no idea why he went into debt, but the situation above has happened to many in the US. Stuck with high payments and going into the abyss. It was never about living above one means it's that the means went away for a lot of people. The fact that he did a consolidation bankruptcy will tell you that at least he was willing to fight instead of giving up

So that joke is not only cruel but of pretty bad taste.

Thanks for over analyzing a stupid joke.

The counter to your dumb argument is that if you’re unemployed, in debt and in risk of losing your house, it’s irresponsible to have a baby when you obviously can’t support it. Birth control is free so there’s really no excuse.

At any rate, he is employed at some aerospace company, isn’t he? Either way, it doesn’t really matter. It was a joke. You obviously don’t have a black sense of humor.

That’s all I’m going to say on the matter.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.

#### hamster_nz

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #143 on: October 14, 2014, 12:36:34 pm »
I strongly agree with mguelvp, I don't know the guy, I gave him $5 and I hold him no malice at all. If you really care that strongly about your$30 (or however much it was) stop reading this and spend your time trying to get it back through a credit card charge-back. Maybe you will have success, maybe not. But what use is groaning on here?

Let's get it straight when you back a Kickstarter project you aren't an "investor" - you do not 'own' any part of the project or its creator. You have pre-ordered a product based on what is at best a video of a demo of a prototype. If they fail to deliver your rewards, then in a perfect world you should get your money back, but we all know that the world isn't perfect and you can kiss that money goodbye. At best you are an unsecured creditor, usually for a sum of money that it isn't worth chasing for.

Maybe others here feel the need to moan, phoning and demanding their money, or Google-stalk a project's creator because you want retribution for them making them feel foolish or stupid or something. Well, if you want to look like an real arse over a few dollars then go for it. Heck, if you care that much, spend real money and get an expensive lawyer to get you $30 back - and maybe it really will make you feel that much better. I however have a more soul-uplifting view of Kickstarter. When I back a project on Kickstarter I like to think that am helping somebody have a go at realising one of their personal dreams. Sure, odds are that they may fail, or they might fall a little short, but at least they are willing to attempt it, and I am happy to spend a little of my pocket money to support them. If I get a product at the end of this then I am doubly happy - I helped somebody follow their dream and they made it happen! So I might have not used my Parallella board much, or that Arduino Proto-shield much, and you may have a uCurrent sitting in a draw doing nothing. But I am sure that Andreas, Max & Duane and Dave really appreciate the fact that you helped to make it happen. The people I can't understand is those who didn't back the project, and then still want to be involved - you know, the "see, I told you it was impossible" types. I am sure that most, if not all, of the backers understood that at the time of signing up. We are not all dumb or ill-informed people, we just wanted to see what happens - a bit of real life drama, watching people who can dream bigger dreams than us. #### marcan • Regular Contributor • Posts: 80 • If it ain't broke I'll fix it anyway. ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #144 on: October 14, 2014, 01:26:45 pm » Maybe others here feel the need to moan, phoning and demanding their money, or Google-stalk a project's creator because you want retribution for them making them feel foolish or stupid or something. I'm not even a backer; the "Google-stalking" as you call it was an attempt to figure out if this guy was serious to begin with, or if there was evidence of him being a scam artist in the past. Judging by the bankruptcy and the baby crowdfunding, I'd say either he's deluded / has mental issues (thinking he could deliver on all of this nonsense when it's clear he can't; possibly triggered/worsened by being in a crappy life situation), or irresponsible and a deliberate scammer (having a child while clearly not being able to support it, then deliberately running a phony kickstarter campaign to make up some emergency cash). I understand that Kickstarter is not an investment platform and it's not an online shop; I have no problem with projects coming down crashing because of unforeseen issues. However, I have very little tolerance for BS; although, were I a backer, I wouldn't chase back my$30. I did back a failed KS - iControlPad2 - which also failed under very dubious circumstances and which I later learned was half-run by a guy with a history of irresponsibility. I consider it a trivial loss as far as the cash, but I'm still curious about the circumstances that caused the failure (and it seems gross mismanagement and/or deliberate embezzlement by that guy was part of it). Kind of a similar story to OpenVizsla, except for the latter bushing managed to pull ahead, save the project, and deliver three years later, which deserves a lot of praise.

There's a difference between running a KS where you made a concerted effort to deliver but failed, running a KS where you never had a chance and you should've known, and running a KS where you never intended to deliver. This guy is in either of the two latter categories, and I'm leaning towards #3.

#### rob77

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #145 on: October 14, 2014, 05:30:32 pm »
You have pre-ordered a product...

no you didn't , you donated some money to support a project and the author promised you a reward in return.
there is no pre-ordering of a product... there is just "supporting a project" - that's what is crowd funding all about.

#### extide

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #146 on: October 15, 2014, 08:34:44 am »
Don't know if this has been pointed out yet:

About 1/2 way down.  Do a search for "west"

WOW, he banko'd $400K !! That's a shitload! #### tom66 • Super Contributor • Posts: 3369 • Country: • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #147 on: October 15, 2014, 07:55:12 pm » How does someone get into$392k of debt?
Is that like not paying a card off for 20+ years?

#### con-f-use

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #148 on: October 15, 2014, 08:20:44 pm »
In the US it's pretty easy. Don't have health insurance, get sick.

#### rob77

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #149 on: October 15, 2014, 08:36:37 pm »
How does someone get into $392k of debt? Is that like not paying a card off for 20+ years? easily ... house, car, credit cards... apparently he was taking more loans than he should, but he still have some income (he bankrupted under chapter 13 - kept his properties but have to pay the debt) btw.. i bet the crowd funding campaign funds are not considered as his income and therefore he can use the money for anything. so it looks like intentional scam... #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #150 on: October 20, 2014, 01:54:32 am » From the KS comment page: "Dennis Leyton DeLauter 2 minutes ago Hey guys! I meant to do this a few days ago. Shawn contacted me and wanted me to update all of you. His internet is down so this is why I am reaching out. All but 2 of the capacitors from the manufacturer had their pressure release blown. Each one is getting re-made. Unfortunately since no major manufacturer makes these capacitors in the United States it has to outsourced. Which adds 6 weeks to our wait. Just like you I've invested into this new technology. I am willing to wait to have it properly manufactured. Please be patient and you will receive news soon." Sounds perfectly logical to me.......NOT « Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 02:15:10 am by Quarlo Klobrigney » Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### dunkemhigh • Super Contributor • Posts: 1228 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #151 on: October 20, 2014, 02:02:16 am » That would be Dennis 'Sockpuppet' DeLauter, one presumes #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #152 on: October 20, 2014, 02:07:09 am » Indeed.. Check his profile. He Joined in July an he has been exalted already to PR Manager... That would be Dennis 'Sockpuppet' DeLauter, one presumes Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### tom66 • Super Contributor • Posts: 3369 • Country: • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #153 on: October 20, 2014, 02:07:59 am » "Internet is down" is no excuse these days. Every coffee shop and library these days has free wi-fi access. Libraries also offer free computers in most areas. So why could he not post an update? Yeah. Makes sense. #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #154 on: October 20, 2014, 02:09:32 am » They don't have those in Kansas. "Internet is down" is no excuse these days. Every coffee shop and library these days has free wi-fi access. Libraries also offer free computers in most areas. So why could he not post an update? Yeah. Makes sense. Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### dunkemhigh • Super Contributor • Posts: 1228 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #155 on: October 20, 2014, 03:33:12 am » Quote "Internet is down" is no excuse these days. It is for me. Sometimes my link goes down, and I am stuck offline for the period. I don't usually waste a fortune with mobile data (the browser is too tiny, or it's like looking through a keyhole). I am not actually away much anyway. Plus I have no idea what my login data is for most places - Palemoon handles that automatically. Sure, I have the info in KeePass, but the copy on my phone isn't up to date because I don't use the phone for mobile data... Turn off my broadband and I would essentially be offline until it's fixed. Nearest Starbucks is more than 10 miles away, which isn't far if I'm going to do a weeks shopping but a bit of a laugh if I want to spend £3 on a flaky WiFi link that will try to connect back to my offline mail server here... #### Rasz • Super Contributor • Posts: 2199 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #156 on: October 20, 2014, 05:57:34 am » Quote "Internet is down" is no excuse these days. It is for me. Sometimes my link goes down, and I am stuck offline for the period. I don't usually waste a fortune with mobile data (the browser is too tiny, or it's like looking through a keyhole). I am not actually away much anyway. Plus I have no idea what my login data is for most places - Palemoon handles that automatically. Sure, I have the info in KeePass, but the copy on my phone isn't up to date because I don't use the phone for mobile data... Turn off my broadband and I would essentially be offline until it's fixed. Nearest Starbucks is more than 10 miles away, which isn't far if I'm going to do a weeks shopping but a bit of a laugh if I want to spend £3 on a flaky WiFi link that will try to connect back to my offline mail server here... tldr you are lazy and useless and NO ONE should EVER do any remote business with you. Im glad we have that settled down now. Dog are my homework didnt work in kindergarden, and doesnt work when you are grown up and owe people money/product. Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck. My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places. #### dunkemhigh • Super Contributor • Posts: 1228 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #157 on: October 20, 2014, 07:13:06 am » Quote tldr you are ... That may be, but you miss the point that not everyone would die a horrible and bloody death if the RTT to Facebook rose by 2ms. Some of us would actually manage to get stuff done, it's just that we wouldn't be able to be twatter about it (not that we'd want to, of course). Takes all sorts, see. #### edavid • Super Contributor • Posts: 2643 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #158 on: October 22, 2014, 06:47:45 am » How does someone get into$392k of debt?
Is that like not paying a card off for 20+ years?

Easy... walk away from a mortgage on a house that's underwater.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_sale_(real_estate)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deficiency_judgment

#### tom66

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #159 on: October 22, 2014, 08:15:48 am »
I thought that once the bank repossessed the house, it became their problem. So I guess you're still in the hole for the rest of the loan principal?

#### extide

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #160 on: October 22, 2014, 08:28:01 am »
I am pretty sure you can't banko a house, that is secured debt, just like a car. So that means $400K of credit cards/personal loans ... #### DarkStar • Contributor • Posts: 20 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #161 on: November 01, 2014, 10:18:14 am » I don't know how it works in the US, but in the UK if you can't pay the mortgage they sell off your house. If the sale price doesn't cover the outstanding mortgage (negative equity) you are still on the hook for the rest. A lot of people in the 90s fell into that trap, losing their home but still owing tens of thousands of pounds to the bank. It's going to happen again when the current bubble bursts. Correctamundo! It is the same here in the U.S. --Chris ^_^ #### Corporate666 • Supporter • Posts: 1990 • Country: • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #162 on: November 01, 2014, 11:15:38 am » I don't know how it works in the US, but in the UK if you can't pay the mortgage they sell off your house. If the sale price doesn't cover the outstanding mortgage (negative equity) you are still on the hook for the rest. A lot of people in the 90s fell into that trap, losing their home but still owing tens of thousands of pounds to the bank. It's going to happen again when the current bubble bursts. Correctamundo! It is the same here in the U.S. It actually varies by state. In some states, called "non-recourse" states, the borrower is not liable. 12 states in the USA are non-recourse, including California, Connecticut, Texas and several others. If your home is foreclosed on or the bank approves a short sale, and the proceeds are below the mortgage balance owed, the borrower isn't responsible for the difference. Amazing, but true. It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done. #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #163 on: November 04, 2014, 08:43:22 am » It appears he's hanging out with Judge Crater and Jimmy Hoffa. Edit: Oops, I forgot one more, Amelia Earhart. Quote from: mojo-chan link=topic=33979.msg543149 So any news about this scammer? « Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 08:47:15 am by Quarlo Klobrigney » Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### Corporate666 • Supporter • Posts: 1990 • Country: • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #164 on: November 04, 2014, 10:23:00 am » So any news about this scammer? I'm gobsmacked that no government has yet stepped into regulate crowdfunding... it's SOOOOOO obviously in need of it. In this case, it appears the guy has absolutely zero intention of delivering anything, and likely never did. In other words, this was an outright scam from the beginning. It's amazing to me that people still defend it with comments like "well, it's not a lot of money and I was willing to take a gamble", as if it's OK to steal from people who won't miss the money. It's also reprehensible, IMO, that Kickstarter takes the "hey, not our problem" attitude with this stuff. I'm very surprised no lawyer has yet taken them on (or hasn't done so and won - or maybe they have and KS paid to settle and keep it hush hush?). I can't see how KS isn't responsible and liable in these cases. KS are the only ones who really have the ability to vet the creator, they are the only ones who have control over the funds during the campaign and they are the only ones who can impose rules and regulations on creators. The buyers are totally at the mercy of what KS requires from the creators, and whenever you see the comments, it's obvious that most of them don't realize the creator isn't vetted by KS at all and nor are the claims or any project details. With the sheer # of people participating, I'd have thought a few lawyers would have been burned by now and would see the opportunity for a nice juicy class action against KS. It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done. #### miguelvp • Super Contributor • Posts: 5549 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #165 on: November 04, 2014, 10:29:01 am » You can't sue a newspaper because there is a business opportunity on their want ads and they scammed you. You can sue the scammers but not the paper. #### Corporate666 • Supporter • Posts: 1990 • Country: • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #166 on: November 04, 2014, 01:53:02 pm » You can't sue a newspaper because there is a business opportunity on their want ads and they scammed you. You can sue the scammers but not the paper. The newspaper doesn't do any due diligence on the advertiser, nor do they hold the money (and take a cut) when you respond to an ad, or provide the forum by which to ask questions and communicate with the advertiser. Nor do they sell the products and services available in their ads as a great thing for their readers, and brand those ads with a common look/feel which leaves many readers thinking it's something more finalized than it is. It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done. #### rsjsouza • Super Contributor • Posts: 2824 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #167 on: November 04, 2014, 11:01:40 pm » The newspaper doesn't do any due diligence on the advertiser, nor do they hold the money (and take a cut) when you respond to an ad, or provide the forum by which to ask questions and communicate with the advertiser. Nor do they sell the products and services available in their ads as a great thing for their readers, and brand those ads with a common look/feel which leaves many readers thinking it's something more finalized than it is. Despite I think that KS is more involved than a newspaper in promoting a product, solely due to the fact it takes a cut on the payments (IMHO a conflict of interest to block scammers), everything else is the same: newspapers provide a way to communicate with the advertiser (a phone number, a URL or an e-mail), they have the power to promote a service/product in ways that may look as the next great thing for their readers, and they can look way more finalized than it actually is. I am thinking about full page ads. Regarding a class action suit, I wonder what is the percentage of these niche scams when compared to the full number of projects in KS. Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense... #### Kean • Supporter • Posts: 738 • Country: • Embedded systems & IT consultant ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #168 on: November 05, 2014, 12:39:10 pm » This graphene supercapacitor charger looks a bit more promising, but still give me an uneasy feeling... https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/zap-go-first-graphene-supercapacitor-charger (doesn't help that they are on IGG either!) The way they talk about the differences betwen batteries, capacitors, and supercapacitors way oversimplfies things to the point of being misleading. And they show no evidence they can design a 6V 40A* charger in that tiny enclosure - look at the size of their prototypes in the technical video. (* a quick calculation shows a 20A charge would be sufficient, but they mention 40A) #### Corporate666 • Supporter • Posts: 1990 • Country: • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #169 on: November 05, 2014, 01:53:31 pm » The newspaper doesn't do any due diligence on the advertiser, nor do they hold the money (and take a cut) when you respond to an ad, or provide the forum by which to ask questions and communicate with the advertiser. Nor do they sell the products and services available in their ads as a great thing for their readers, and brand those ads with a common look/feel which leaves many readers thinking it's something more finalized than it is. Despite I think that KS is more involved than a newspaper in promoting a product, solely due to the fact it takes a cut on the payments (IMHO a conflict of interest to block scammers), everything else is the same: newspapers provide a way to communicate with the advertiser (a phone number, a URL or an e-mail), they have the power to promote a service/product in ways that may look as the next great thing for their readers, and they can look way more finalized than it actually is. I am thinking about full page ads. Regarding a class action suit, I wonder what is the percentage of these niche scams when compared to the full number of projects in KS. I don't agree - but that's OK - differing opinions makes life interesting The thing about KS that really causes issues is the due diligence they do on creators. They create quite a lot of hoops that you must jump through to list your project there, whereas a newspaper doesn't do any on advertisers, short of obscenities in the ad itself. KS says you must have a prototype or tangible item and they have a whole bunch of stuff that is and isn't allowed (and not just legality stuff... they don't want you funding a business or something that resembles starting a business, rather just a specific product). No idea how many KS projects are scams... but I am baffled that a bunch of Nigerians haven't figured this out yet I know you have to reside in one of a few select countries, but the proof required of that is pretty light and pretty easily circumvented (look at Lifx... they were Ozzies but KS was USA only at that time). It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done. #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #170 on: November 08, 2014, 11:32:52 am » And then this, as you say "sock puppet": Dennis Leyton DeLauter 11 minutes ago "Robert, I sorry to take a long time to respond. I am not sure about the whole situation. I was in contact with shawn through facebook since the campaign. We talked numerous times about possible further business if the batteries work. I most likely have more $$invested into these batteries than most of you so please be patient, I hope shawn is just bad with communication, because I am currently broke and used my little bit of capital to buy these batteries. But i respect innovation and understand sometime projects take longer. I just wish he would respond. Hopefully within the next week or two." WTF? Get your ass in gear boy! Talk about irresponsibility! Must be one of those "Me Generation" assholes. I also thought his internet was down. So how did he get on Facebook? LIAR! « Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 11:44:31 am by Quarlo Klobrigney » Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### OlDrunk • Newbie • Posts: 2 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #171 on: November 08, 2014, 04:46:50 pm » any one wondering what the kickstarter money had gone to just look at Shawn West's wife's facebook, Shawn went silent but his wife didn't just check out the small business she started up this month and she's hiring too , https://www.facebook.com/pages/Youniquely-Tiffany/821512157910865?pnref=lhc , people need money to start shitty little amway businesses right? #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #172 on: November 09, 2014, 12:49:08 am » Excellent detective work Mr. Holmes! How did you find this little gem? Youniquely what a dumb name. Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### OlDrunk • Newbie • Posts: 2 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #173 on: November 09, 2014, 08:13:58 am » Excellent detective work Mr. Holmes! How did you find this little gem? Youniquely what a dumb name. Kept an digital eye on Shawn and the project, no public online activity from when the funding went though to till this month when he started up again #### george graves • Super Contributor • Posts: 1259 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #174 on: November 10, 2014, 08:51:10 pm » It's only fair that people know they have been scammed so they can start the chargeback process. Naw - Caveat emptor. It's "buyer beware". Not "after the fact, let someone tell you that you were a sucker, and you an get your money back" - let everyone that lost money learn a lesson, and tell others. If they aren't too disgraced to admit to being taken. Hucksters have been around since the dawn of time. This is nothing new. I'd say in the grand scheme of things it's better to put pressure on kickstarter to take a few of their million to keep engineers inhouse to vet the project, rather then giving people their money back. That just perpetuates the problem. #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #175 on: November 12, 2014, 12:18:12 am » Surely this is well into the territory of fraud now, and should be reported to the police. I don't know about this, but if funds were received from International sources, does it constitute a fraud and an investigation by Interpol as a lottery? « Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 12:21:00 am by Quarlo Klobrigney » Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### hamster_nz • Super Contributor • Posts: 1755 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #176 on: November 12, 2014, 04:38:06 am » Surely this is well into the territory of fraud now, and should be reported to the police. Did you have any success reporting it? Or were you expecting somebody else to do it at your suggestion? #### Dongulus • Regular Contributor • Posts: 229 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #177 on: November 12, 2014, 12:12:08 pm » I'd say in the grand scheme of things it's better to put pressure on kickstarter to take a few of their million to keep engineers inhouse to vet the project, rather then giving people their money back. That just perpetuates the problem. I agree. If non-tech savvy people continue to get regularly burned on scams and projects that just fail to produce, then general trust in crowd funding will disappear and the crowd funding model will completely collapse. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that it has survived this long. If Kickstarter is to have a future, they need to employ a more rigorous process for verifying project feasibility. I think teams of seasoned professionals in different areas of product design and manufacturing hired to review campaigns would definitely be a good idea, even if just for high-profile projects that get into the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. #### Richard Crowley • Super Contributor • Posts: 4148 • Country: • KE7GKP ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #178 on: November 12, 2014, 12:59:40 pm » If non-tech savvy people continue to get regularly burned on scams and projects that just fail to produce, then general trust in crowd funding will disappear and the crowd funding model will completely collapse. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that it has survived this long. If Kickstarter is to have a future, they need to employ a more rigorous process for verifying project feasibility. I think teams of seasoned professionals in different areas of product design and manufacturing hired to review campaigns would definitely be a good idea, even if just for high-profile projects that get into the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. Exactly the same thing happening at the USPTO (Patent & Trademark Office). They appear to have given up trying to actually evaluate the applications or even give them a general sanity check. In a way, it is no wonder. What kind of panel would you need to accurate evaluate all the patent applications. It wouldn't surprise me if Kickstarter came to the same conclusion for exactly the same reason. #### dunkemhigh • Super Contributor • Posts: 1228 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #179 on: November 12, 2014, 10:22:10 pm » Quote What kind of panel would you need I'm sure Dave could come to an arrangement with Kickstarter about sanity checking projects here #### tom66 • Super Contributor • Posts: 3369 • Country: • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #180 on: November 13, 2014, 12:27:40 am » I think anything hardware related must have at least one working prototype of the ADVERTISED DESIGN (changes can be made later) and they must submit a document detailing manufacturing costs to Kickstarter to deem feasibility. #### rob77 • Super Contributor • Posts: 1848 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #181 on: November 13, 2014, 12:31:56 am » Quote What kind of panel would you need I'm sure Dave could come to an arrangement with Kickstarter about sanity checking projects here don't forget that majority of the kickstarter projects are NOT related to EE. and actually the projects are from many areas - so you would need tens of experts to judge the projects. As Richard mentioned - exactly the same happened to patent offices... you can patent anything if you pay the fees and Kickstarter will let any project go if they get the money because they're simply not able to judge the projects and even if you could set up a jury consisting of tens or even hundreds of experts.... it might happen that the jury will not allow a project because the subject will be beyond their understanding.... ( don't forget how effectively the christian inquisition judged the scientists back in the times of inquisition so in short.... we can't do anything about the shitty crappy scammers in crowd funding... #### dunkemhigh • Super Contributor • Posts: 1228 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #182 on: November 13, 2014, 03:59:29 am » Quote don't forget that... ... some things are said in jest and don't want or need forensic dismantling. #### Corporate666 • Supporter • Posts: 1990 • Country: • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #183 on: November 13, 2014, 12:44:02 pm » Peer review is an established concept in the scientific community that works very well. I don't see why it couldn't work here - doesn't have to lead to projects being allowed or disallowed, merely would be nice if subject matter experts could review and give their opinion on a project. As it stands, commenters are anonymous and so the opinion of a shill/friend of the project creator is weighted equally to an engineer with years of experience in the field... which renders it virtually impossible for backers to judge the legitimacy of a given project. It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done. #### suicidaleggroll • Super Contributor • Posts: 1455 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #184 on: November 13, 2014, 01:06:59 pm » Peer review is an established concept in the scientific community that works very well. I don't see why it couldn't work here - doesn't have to lead to projects being allowed or disallowed, merely would be nice if subject matter experts could review and give their opinion on a project. As it stands, commenters are anonymous and so the opinion of a shill/friend of the project creator is weighted equally to an engineer with years of experience in the field... which renders it virtually impossible for backers to judge the legitimacy of a given project. Agreed. I don't see any reason why experts in various fields couldn't sign up on some version of Kickstarter's "expert witness database". When a project is submitted, the applicable experts are notified to comment on it. Rather than Kickstarter having to review every project for legitimacy, despite their lack of knowledge in the subject, they would simply need to review the credentials of those who sign up to be one of their "experts", and then leave the project reviews to them. Maybe it could be an opt-in service? The project submitter gets to choose if their project is submitted to an expert, and which category it fits in, for a reasonable fee (50?), and the applicable experts in that category are notified. The experts could receive a portion of the fee for their time, regardless of their determination of the legitimacy of the project. The end result is developers either don't submit their projects to the experts, and are identified as such (which would be akin to all current projects), or developers do submit their projects to the experts, pay the fee, and the experts' reviews are posted on the project summary page, good or bad. Honestly, just about anything would be better than the current strategy of doing nothing and hoping they don't get sued. #### 0xdeadbeef • Super Contributor • Posts: 1177 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #185 on: November 14, 2014, 05:15:11 am » Well, another "graphene" capacitor. 5 Minutes charging this time and more professional pitch, yet still not plausible: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/zap-go-first-graphene-supercapacitor-charger Flexible funding of course... « Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 05:18:00 am by 0xdeadbeef » Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson #### daveshah • Supporter • Posts: 356 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #186 on: November 14, 2014, 05:25:32 am » Well, another "graphene" capacitor. 5 Minutes charging this time and more professional pitch, yet still not plausible: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/zap-go-first-graphene-supercapacitor-charger Flexible funding of course... 40A power supply in that? Yeah right. #### tom66 • Super Contributor • Posts: 3369 • Country: • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #187 on: November 14, 2014, 08:16:45 am » Man, sometimes I wonder why I work in a 9-5 job when I can make 76,000 from some easy Indiegogo scam. #### Jay_Diddy_B • Super Contributor • Posts: 1686 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #188 on: November 14, 2014, 09:12:38 am » In these scams schemes Graphene is the new Snake Oil. A quick search shows that Graphene caps are still in the laboratory. It will be years before (or if) we see them in production. As far as Shawn West's IGG project, failure and delays are both undesirable but acceptable outcomes. The complete lack of communication is totally unacceptable. This project has had a very wide credibility gap from the start. Regards, Jay_Diddy_B #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #189 on: November 18, 2014, 11:35:52 pm » I think this will sum it up: He played you girl, and he ain't EVER gonna call you. Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### daveatol • Regular Contributor • Posts: 119 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #190 on: November 20, 2014, 07:14:59 pm » 40A power supply in that? Yeah right. I think that's the less-unlikely part of it (actually 18A (or 108W) constant would charge a 1.5AHr "battery" in the stated 5 minutes). It's not an impossible ask, albeit a tough one at such small dimensions. How and from where are all these graphene supercapacitors being sourced? Are they all just being knocked-up in the campaigner's backyard? #### tom66 • Super Contributor • Posts: 3369 • Country: • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #191 on: November 20, 2014, 11:59:27 pm » He's buying them from Mr West; that's probably why he's been so delayed recently. Typical commercial power supplies are something like ~6W-10W/cubic inch. They don't specify dimensions, but if we assume 4" by 1" cylinder with 100% available for the power electronics (unrealistic, given the need for the large graphene capacitor, connectors and casing materials) then that gives them ~3.1 cubic inches available. Enough for an optimistic 30 watts, or more realistically something like 10~15 watts. Comparing the assumption to something like an iPad charger, which delivers 11 watts, and is about the same volume, this seems like a present limit. To reach an optimistic 108 watts, they'd need about 12in^3, or in a similar form factor, make the device diameter twice as large, or length four times as long. This also assumes the graphene capacitor as being negligible in size. Maybe they can get more peak power out of the device, but continuous power is less ... still, for power transistors, 5 minutes may as well be DC... « Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 12:02:21 am by tom66 » #### daveatol • Regular Contributor • Posts: 119 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #192 on: November 21, 2014, 01:53:19 am » I bet he's buying pencils as we speak. He's buying them from Mr West; that's probably why he's been so delayed recently. To reach an optimistic 108 watts, they'd need about 12in^3, or in a similar form factor, make the device diameter twice as large, or length four times as long. This also assumes the graphene capacitor as being negligible in size. Well, I see no reason why the size of the graphene capacitor should hold this project back. Anyways, that estimate for power density is probably fine for a nicely made supply; a capacitor charger doesn't need to be that nice. Here's an example commercial supply which can supply "200W", and has a volume of 3.5 in³, including its package: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/200W-Max-220V-AC-0-91A-Home-LED-Halogen-Power-Supply-Electronic-Transformer-/270925841132 I don't know much about the supply, but I assume it provides a bi-polar HF (e.g. ~30kHz) switching frequency squarewave, modulated by the 50Hz line sinusoid (which allows the power factor to be 0.99 without a large input capacitor). Granted, this supply would require a rectifier. « Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 01:58:54 am by daveatol » #### tom66 • Super Contributor • Posts: 3369 • Country: • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #193 on: November 21, 2014, 02:08:51 am » I have some legitimate 75W electronic transformers for 12V halogens, they are about 3.5" x 0.5". I do not believe that Chinese e-transformer will operate for very long at 200W, if at all. Mike's looked at the output of these: A capacitor needs low ripple current, and the supply needs to be stable into a virtual short circuit. #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #194 on: December 19, 2014, 02:56:45 am » Any updates? Is he in jail yet? Unknown, but wishing this liar anal warts would be a request, not out of line. « Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 02:58:17 am by Quarlo Klobrigney » Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### Richard Crowley • Super Contributor • Posts: 4148 • Country: • KE7GKP ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #195 on: December 19, 2014, 03:06:55 am » It really doesn't help that people just accept being ripped off. There should be a criminal investigation. I bet Kickstarter would love that. How is this different than scores (hundreds?) of other Kickstarter (et.al.) projects/scams that took the money and failed (or simply ran without even trying)? Is it because of the subject? The outlandish claims? That some dilettante discovered the "secret" to violating the laws of physics? And people in this very forum were silly enough to believe? If the US Patent & Trademark office can't keep up with the technology to discern genuine gold vs. pyrite, how do we expect Kickstarter to have any effective control of this? CAVEAT EMPTOR applies on Kickstarter just as anywhere else. Perhaps more so. #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #196 on: December 19, 2014, 03:17:27 am » I wouldn't really say some people are "silly enough to believe". Some are do-gooders trying to make the world a better place, so they invest in someone who presents himself as a family man who is trying to do the same. Their lack of technical knowledge is a primary tactic to the con. They believed in the man and the idea. I don't visit Kickstarter because I don't know you, so why would I give you money. The outrage is that he brought his con to this forum and denied simple facts of nature, as well as proving his maths were in error by many in great detail. These are my opinions of course, until we hear from him again. Me thinks Jimmy Hoffa has a better chance of dropping a quarter in a payphone and telling us where he's been, first. « Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 03:25:09 am by Quarlo Klobrigney » Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### miguelvp • Super Contributor • Posts: 5549 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #197 on: December 20, 2014, 04:49:40 am » The outrage is that he brought his con to this forum and denied simple facts of nature, as well as proving his maths were in error by many in great detail. I don't recall him being in this forum or answering anything at all. We have a very clear case of fraud here that could easily be proven in court after a bit of investigating to get financial records. It should be an easy case for the police and prosecutor. Criminal sanctions should be brought in cases of fraud like this, not only to punish the guilty but to discourage others from trying the same thing. Are you sure you pulled your money out in time? Also, how can you state it's a very clear case of fraud? You don't know what efforts he put but one thing is for sure, you keep bringing up this particular failed KS, there are others that took way more money and delivered nothing. If you want to do something about it then do it, instead of trying to entice others to do it for you. #### edavid • Super Contributor • Posts: 2643 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #198 on: December 20, 2014, 05:46:21 am » Also, how can you state it's a very clear case of fraud? You don't know what efforts he put but one thing is for sure, you keep bringing up this particular failed KS, there are others that took way more money and delivered nothing. If you want to do something about it then do it, instead of trying to entice others to do it for you. That's not really fair since he's not in the US. What could he do? However, I don't think he understands how hard it is to bring charges against someone for even blatant fraud. #### Richard Crowley • Super Contributor • Posts: 4148 • Country: • KE7GKP ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #199 on: December 20, 2014, 05:57:08 am » That's not really fair since he's not in the US. Well, we don't really know that, do we? Since he(?) has chosen to obfuscate his location. #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #200 on: December 20, 2014, 06:10:41 am » I don't recall him being in this forum or answering anything at all. Perhaps not this exact page, but here none the less. http://www.eevblog.com/2014/07/28/graphene-lithium-ion-capacitor-kickstarter-bs/ Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### Quarlo Klobrigney • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 371 • Country: • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #201 on: December 20, 2014, 06:17:03 am » That's not really fair since he's not in the US. Well, we don't really know that, do we? Since he(?) has chosen to obfuscate his location. I don't get the out of the US part, he says he is in Newton, KS. Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go. #### edavid • Super Contributor • Posts: 2643 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #202 on: December 20, 2014, 06:27:52 am » That's not really fair since he's not in the US. Well, we don't really know that, do we? Since he(?) has chosen to obfuscate his location. I don't get the out of the US part, he says he is in Newton, KS. We were talking about forum member mojo-chan, who is in the UK. #### CanadianAvenger • Regular Contributor • Posts: 178 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #203 on: December 20, 2014, 07:08:43 am » I don't recall him being in this forum or answering anything at all. Perhaps not this exact page, but here none the less. http://www.eevblog.com/2014/07/28/graphene-lithium-ion-capacitor-kickstarter-bs/ Still not anything from the project creator... that link is to Dave's rant on this project. #### Kean • Supporter • Posts: 738 • Country: • Embedded systems & IT consultant ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #204 on: December 20, 2014, 07:17:52 am » Still not anything from the project creator... that link is to Dave's rant on this project. Look again - Shawn makes an appearance several times in the comments on that "rant" page. #### Richard Crowley • Super Contributor • Posts: 4148 • Country: • KE7GKP ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #205 on: December 21, 2014, 01:42:56 am » The problem with Kickstarter is that most people only lose a few quid so don't care. The overall scale of the fraud is substantial though. It's a great way to rob people. Apathy let's them get away with it. But again, that isn't any different than panhandlers/beggars on the street corner. Some (perhaps most?) of them may really be destitute and homeless, but local news reports have revealed that many make hundreds/thousands of bucks/quid/whatever a bit at a time from hundreds of people, and then drive home in a car probably nicer than yours. Spinning a technical-sounding scam and posting photos on Kickstarter is just a different skill-set than standing on the pavement with a cardboard sign. I have contributed to more than one Kickstarter (etc.) campaign that never went anywhere. But you are right, since I gambled only a few$$, I knew going in that I may never see anything from it. That is only a small-scale version of people buying shares in start-up companies on the world's stock markets. It is a risk where you clearly know that you could lose everything with nothing to show for it. #### Marco • Super Contributor • Posts: 3954 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #206 on: December 21, 2014, 05:58:07 am » The pan handler doesn't enter into a contract to deliver you goods. #### tom66 • Super Contributor • Posts: 3369 • Country: • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #207 on: December 21, 2014, 06:15:15 am » Well, actually investors do have some protection. It's illegal under SEC law to make knowingly false statements, such as having a prototype where one does not exist. In such a case investors would be able to sue the company or individual, and the individual could be liable for imprisonment. But Kickstarter offers no such protection, except the possibility of being negligent in vetting the projects (despite their claims that backers are responsible.) This has yet to be tested in a court of law, but I imagine the next large project which fails to deliver may be interesting... the problem is, it's lots of people losing$50 or $100 maybe - hardly worth criminal action, unless a class action can be formed. « Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 06:16:48 am by tom66 » #### dunkemhigh • Super Contributor • Posts: 1228 ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #208 on: December 21, 2014, 07:02:18 am » Quote the problem is, it's lots of people losing$50 or $100 maybe I think a significant problem is that most people just don't know how to go about suing someone for non-performance or whatever. It is actually quite a difficult thing to do even if you have an idea of what you should be doing, and if you start out without a clue there is little chance you will get anywhere. That's for a dead cert win in your local jurisdiction, so imagine this kind of thing on foreign shores... #### Richard Crowley • Super Contributor • Posts: 4148 • Country: • KE7GKP ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #209 on: December 21, 2014, 07:55:00 am » The pan handler doesn't enter into a contract to deliver you goods. That online click-box isn't worth the paper its written on. #### Marco • Super Contributor • Posts: 3954 • Country: ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #210 on: December 21, 2014, 09:22:40 am » Maybe ... what ever happened to that Washington state consumer protection lawsuit? (I tried to look myself but the court records website, dw.courts.wa.gov, seems inaccessible ... at least to me, downforeveryoneorjustme says it's up.) « Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 09:25:55 am by Marco » #### tom66 • Super Contributor • Posts: 3369 • Country: • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist ##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery « Reply #211 on: December 21, 2014, 09:25:26 am » This'll be interesting... the Zap 'N' Go project raised almost$115,000, well beyond it's goal:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/zap-go-first-graphene-supercapacitor-charger

I present the Crowd Funding Hardware Bingo Fun Time!

#### matseng

• Frequent Contributor
• Posts: 564
• Country:
##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #212 on: December 21, 2014, 01:26:40 pm »
"The ZAP&GO loses only 20% of it's power in 72 hours (about the same rate as a lithium battery)."

Doesn't lithium batteries discharge about 2% per *month*? So their figure must be one on the very first-gen experimental batteries in a lab many years ago then :-)

#### dunkemhigh

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 1228
##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #213 on: December 22, 2014, 11:09:47 pm »
Quote
just call the FBI and report fraud

How would I do that from here in the UK? What are the chances of some two-bit scam getting the full resources of the FBI focused on it even were I a US citizen?

#### Quarlo Klobrigney

• Frequent Contributor
• Posts: 371
• Country:
• Behind every alfoil hat is a genius
##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #214 on: December 22, 2014, 11:34:35 pm »
Quote from: dunkemhigh
How would I do that from here in the UK? What are the chances of some two-bit scam getting the full resources of the FBI focused on it even were I a US citizen?
[/quote
As I have mentioned many pages ago, Interpol considers this a lottery. Perhaps a method for foreign users. At least a phone call or email will help in determining what remedies are available.
http://www.interpol.int/Crime-areas/Financial-crime/Fraud/Lottery-fraud
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 11:37:37 pm by Quarlo Klobrigney »
Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go.

#### dunkemhigh

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 1228
##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #215 on: December 22, 2014, 11:47:19 pm »
I don't see that the link provided suggests Kickstarter projects are in any way similar to a lottery fraud. For starters, there is no suggestion of a huge win. It is, in fact, not at all a lottery, nor is it sold as such.

I also can't see Interpol wasting their already stretched manpower on something small like this. Their remedy appears to be to tell you ways of ensuring you won't get sucked in, but going after all the scammers who have made off with a few thousand bucks is likely beyond or beneath them.

#### miguelvp

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 5549
• Country:
##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #216 on: December 23, 2014, 02:31:45 am »
How would I do that from here in the UK? What are the chances of some two-bit scam getting the full resources of the FBI focused on it even were I a US citizen?

That's why I keep asking if someone from the US has done it yet. Even so, a carefully worded email from the UK might work.

The FBI concerns itself with all crimes that cross state borders, like this one. Magnitude is irrelevant, even if it is only a few thousand dollars. If someone where to post all the evidence that has been presented in this thread to them it should be fairly easy for them to check a few records without leaving the comfort of their office. It's fairly easy to trace money as it moves around. Payment from Amazon/Kickstarter, transfer to wife's bank account, spending on resources for her new company.

Your personal vendetta against this particular case is beyond my comprehension, you didn't invest, or if you did you took your money away, but you are determined to keep pointing the finger and calling witch so that someone else does the dirty work for you, advocate of the masses.

#### miguelvp

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #217 on: December 23, 2014, 03:27:49 am »
Jeeze, no need to blow it out of all proportion. I was just responding to questions people kept asking. I didn't even take hand over any money.

Any updates? Is he in jail yet?

Surely this is well into the territory of fraud now, and should be reported to the police.

Sounds personal to me.

#### suicidaleggroll

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #218 on: December 23, 2014, 03:59:04 am »
Maybe he just doesn't like seeing scammers walk away with the money without repercussion?

#### dunkemhigh

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #219 on: December 23, 2014, 04:37:22 am »
Quote
Your personal vendetta against this particular case

I think this case is, as he says, as good an example as we're likely to get of one that could be prosecuted, so it makes sense to push this one rather than wait for one nearly as good, or the one after that, or after that...

Maybe he could be a leetle more diplomatic in phrasing, though

#### tom66

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #220 on: December 23, 2014, 05:28:59 am »
Sounds personal to me.

Sounds like he can't stand Yet Another Crowdfunding Fraud...

...neither can I, but I'm not going to bug the police over it because I don't think they'll bother.

It'll probably be like the 1980 Video Game crash - Atari's ET (a dreadfully bad game) is widely speculated to have caused it. They'll be a "crowdfunding crash" as many people simultaneously lose hope in the platform.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 05:40:50 am by tom66 »

#### Corporate666

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #221 on: December 23, 2014, 11:33:24 am »
How would I do that from here in the UK? What are the chances of some two-bit scam getting the full resources of the FBI focused on it even were I a US citizen?

That's why I keep asking if someone from the US has done it yet. Even so, a carefully worded email from the UK might work.

The FBI concerns itself with all crimes that cross state borders, like this one. Magnitude is irrelevant, even if it is only a few thousand dollars. If someone where to post all the evidence that has been presented in this thread to them it should be fairly easy for them to check a few records without leaving the comfort of their office. It's fairly easy to trace money as it moves around. Payment from Amazon/Kickstarter, transfer to wife's bank account, spending on resources for her new company.

Your personal vendetta against this particular case is beyond my comprehension, you didn't invest, or if you did you took your money away, but you are determined to keep pointing the finger and calling witch so that someone else does the dirty work for you, advocate of the masses.

I don't think one needs to have been scammed to have "skin in the game", even if just tangentially.  It sucks seeing someone screw over a lot of people, and it compromises the integrity of the crowdfunding platform for us all, whether we're potential backers or potential creators.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.

#### Corporate666

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #222 on: December 23, 2014, 11:47:51 am »
How would I do that from here in the UK? What are the chances of some two-bit scam getting the full resources of the FBI focused on it even were I a US citizen?

That's why I keep asking if someone from the US has done it yet. Even so, a carefully worded email from the UK might work.

The FBI concerns itself with all crimes that cross state borders, like this one. Magnitude is irrelevant, even if it is only a few thousand dollars. If someone where to post all the evidence that has been presented in this thread to them it should be fairly easy for them to check a few records without leaving the comfort of their office. It's fairly easy to trace money as it moves around. Payment from Amazon/Kickstarter, transfer to wife's bank account, spending on resources for her new company.

Unfortunately, despite it being their job... I doubt the FBI would get involved.   They are somewhat like the Supreme Court in that they have more work than they have resources, so they most definitely pick and choose where to spend those resources, often making decisions that baffle the casual observer.

The best bet would probably be the Attorney General in the state Shawn West is located in, as well as the prosecutor at the courthouse that has jurisdiction over his home address.  Both are political offices and usually prosecutors and AG's have political ambitions and anything that will make them look good - especially something that will get a lot of press coverage - is something they will be on like white on rice.

It would probably also be helpful for anyone whose been ripped off to contact the police department in his home town.  If one does it, they will likely consider it a civil matter.  If they get dozens of people saying they were ripped off, they are more likely to investigate and/or hand it over to the county prosecutor to investigate bringing charges.

A couple of other effective methods might be to compile a "complaint" with all possible supporting documentation and then send that to his work, to the owner/President.  Since, IIRC, he divulged where he worked, his actions tarnish his employer to an extent, and if he were my employee, I'd compel him to either fix the situation or find somewhere else to work.

And last but not least, buying a domain with his name in it and putting up a website that details what has happened would be perhaps the most effective thing.  He's posted pictures and details of his life and his facebook page, so putting as much identifying info along with the complaint on a website that will start coming up first when someone searches for him is going to provide a TON of pressure to get the issue resolved and get the site down.
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#### hamster_nz

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #223 on: December 23, 2014, 08:27:01 pm »
The best policy is to assume good faith.

What? Like when somebody asks for a few dollars to help build a battery that recharges in 30 seconds?

(Actually to agree with miguelvp your posts do read as though you you have a really really big axe to grind with Mr West, but don't want to do the work yourself)

#### Corporate666

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #224 on: December 24, 2014, 03:09:25 am »
My beef is more with Kickstarter in general, even though the two projects I have backed both delivered. I just find this case interesting, especially since some of the backers and the guy himself are/were here. Hay oh, looks like he got away with it.

I'm with you - the platforms are the most guilty party in these scams, because they are the only ones with the power to stop them either by doing due diligence, or giving the potential backers the tools and information to do their own due diligence, or by at least making backers aware that they have done NO vetting at all on the project or it's claims and do not know that anything stated in the proposal is true or even possible.

Then they should compel creators to give updates and either have them agree to a contract for refund to backers in the even of failure to complete, failure to update or failure to respond to inquiries... or better yet (which they'd never do), disburse the funds on a schedule as milestones are met.

I realize KS and IGG don't want to insert themselves into the project because then they have liability, but right now they don't even give backers the tools to do that vetting themselves, so they are complicit in the scamming.
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#### miguelvp

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #225 on: December 24, 2014, 03:17:36 am »
My beef is more with Kickstarter in general, even though the two projects I have backed both delivered. I just find this case interesting, especially since some of the backers and the guy himself are/were here. Hay oh, looks like he got away with it.

I'm with you - the platforms are the most guilty party in these scams, because they are the only ones with the power to stop them either by doing due diligence, or giving the potential backers the tools and information to do their own due diligence, or by at least making backers aware that they have done NO vetting at all on the project or it's claims and do not know that anything stated in the proposal is true or even possible.

Then they should compel creators to give updates and either have them agree to a contract for refund to backers in the even of failure to complete, failure to update or failure to respond to inquiries... or better yet (which they'd never do), disburse the funds on a schedule as milestones are met.

I realize KS and IGG don't want to insert themselves into the project because then they have liability, but right now they don't even give backers the tools to do that vetting themselves, so they are complicit in the scamming.

To me I see this as an opportunity for someone to make a site doing just that by offering insurance based on the merits of the project. It could be very lucrative if done right.

Of course they won't insure the ones that they think wont deliver or under deliver by no hitting their full claims or have very high insurance rates for those, to be recovered from the ones that are almost certain.

#### electrodacus

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #226 on: March 18, 2015, 03:04:51 pm »
Is a bit sad that projects like this give a bad reputation to crowd funding.
It dose not affect me since I wont want any of those that backed this project to back any of my projects.
I'm extremely familiar with super-capacitors. I first purchased a 3.3F 5.5V about 19 or 20 years ago (there where two in series in a large rectangular case branded GoldCaps).
Is clear he will not have been able to deliver as promised but if he was not a scamer and had good intentions he will have delivered whatever he was envisioning initially maybe good enough for a week in a remote control or digital watch

« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 03:11:13 pm by electrodacus »

#### daveatol

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #227 on: March 18, 2015, 03:11:23 pm »
Is clear he will not have been able to deliver as promised but if he was not a scamer and had good intentions he will have delivered whatever he was envisioning initially maybe good enough for a week in a remote control or digital watch
If he was not a scammer, then he could refund the pledges (less KS/PP fees and any dev. costs). I'm sure the backers would be happier with a partial refund than nothing.

Even if he launched his KS idea with good intentions, that certainly changed and it's clear that he now plans to defraud his backers.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 03:13:24 pm by daveatol »

#### miguelvp

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #228 on: March 18, 2015, 04:05:26 pm »
Is clear he will not have been able to deliver as promised but if he was not a scamer and had good intentions he will have delivered whatever he was envisioning initially maybe good enough for a week in a remote control or digital watch
If he was not a scammer, then he could refund the pledges (less KS/PP fees and any dev. costs). I'm sure the backers would be happier with a partial refund than nothing.

Even if he launched his KS idea with good intentions, that certainly changed and it's clear that he now plans to defraud his backers.

You don't know if the factory he had to build his supercaps failed to deliver and kept all the spent money.
I wouldn't assume anything because it wasn't that much money to begin with.

#### Corporate666

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #229 on: March 18, 2015, 06:17:48 pm »
Is clear he will not have been able to deliver as promised but if he was not a scamer and had good intentions he will have delivered whatever he was envisioning initially maybe good enough for a week in a remote control or digital watch
If he was not a scammer, then he could refund the pledges (less KS/PP fees and any dev. costs). I'm sure the backers would be happier with a partial refund than nothing.

Even if he launched his KS idea with good intentions, that certainly changed and it's clear that he now plans to defraud his backers.

You don't know if the factory he had to build his supercaps failed to deliver and kept all the spent money.
I wouldn't assume anything because it wasn't that much money to begin with.

I think it's safe to assume he is a scammer.

He never posted a single update after funding, IIRC, and he logged on to the site yet left his backers completely in the dark about what is going on.  If he had been scammed himself, he can explain that to backers.  The total lack of communication places the blame squarely with him.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.

#### Quarlo Klobrigney

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #230 on: March 19, 2015, 01:26:23 am »
You don't know if the factory he had to build his supercaps failed to deliver and kept all the spent money.
I wouldn't assume anything because it wasn't that much money to begin with.
That is the important point you continue to be blind to. The point that he never updated the financial status with excuses as to connectivity issues, and other nonsense adds up to a scammer. Period.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 01:47:17 am by Quarlo Klobrigney »
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#### Orips

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #231 on: October 20, 2015, 12:43:05 pm »
Seems like this scumbag is back and has a bit to say https://disqus.com/by/disqus_4LofYmr24S/
Funny how hypocritical some of his comments are.

#### timothyaag

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #232 on: April 19, 2017, 06:54:52 am »
Well, this whole thread was an interesting read. This campaign should be a case study for how well (poorly) people can read investment opportunities and, most of all, how little due diligence people do before throwing money at someone with wild claims, laughable evidence and sketchy behavior. Even a quick search for this guy reveals an article about him and his girlfriend robbing a Walmart and court records for multiple counts of forgery(picture included!).

#### Cyberdragon

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##### Re: 30 second recharging Rechargeable Battery
« Reply #233 on: April 19, 2017, 01:30:30 pm »
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 01:33:07 pm by Cyberdragon »
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