Author Topic: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable  (Read 13244 times)

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Offline vargoal

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A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« on: January 09, 2015, 05:16:49 pm »
Found this cool kick starter project which enables users to connect two audio jacks without wires. They claim it's studio quality audio. Just wanted EEVBlog feedback.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/432967670/jack-the-wifi-guitar-cable/description
 

Offline rob77

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2015, 09:53:38 pm »
quote from their kickstarter page....
Quote
Why 4 years..? Because this is a total re-engineering of Wi-Fi to suit real time audio, and we are audio geeks so we want to do it right.

what they mean by re-engineering of WiFi ??? that sounds like bullshit to me...  either it's WiFi or it's not WiFi anymore because it was re-engineered...
 

Offline Yago

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2015, 02:27:04 am »
Reasonable amount of money requested, appears to have a working prototype... Although no sign of the mobile apps. I worry about the lack of detailed stats too. They say it is "studio quality", which usually means 96kHz/24 bit at least, but they don't actually state what they are using. Few details of the wifi... 802.11b/g, or N, or AC? 2.4GHz only 5GHz as well?

Wifi is an interesting choice. Not ideal of this kind of low latency audio, but if they really are getting "studio quality" it's probably the only option. Bluetooth has too much latency and proprietary systems like Texas Instrument's PurePath are limited to 44.1kHz/16 bit.

Hit the nail on the head there Mojo.
The latency is the crux IMHO, only takes a few milliseconds to make the thing a nightmare/impossible to use.


 

Offline iampoor

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2015, 05:16:10 am »
wonder how it performs when your at a gig with 20 interefering wifi networks nearby.......

 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2015, 08:41:11 am »
Yep, there's a reason (or two) WiFi is the wrong medium for live audio performing. Latency, propagation, interference, power requirements to name a few.

There are plenty of other existing solutions for this, and I can't see how this would be as good as what's already in use.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2015, 08:47:47 am »
You'd be insane to use it on stage - too much risk of interference.
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Offline iampoor

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2015, 10:53:48 am »
I think this is for people who dont understand how much a good wireless unit costs! heh
If it costs less then an iphone it probablly sucks...
 

Offline Neganur

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2015, 04:56:06 pm »
You'd be insane to use it on stage - too much risk of interference.
Especially since there are proper solutions available in the same price range already.
I used a 100 EUR device for many years on stage. I don't even know why he bothers comparing it to bluetooth latency >.<

Also: "No amp, no PC - just plug in your head phones"  yeah or just buy a pocket POD already and save yourself the trouble with all this VST plugin nonsense. Great idea but wrong approach.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 05:00:25 pm by Neganur »
 

Offline matseng

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2015, 07:46:52 pm »
The latency is the crux IMHO, only takes a few milliseconds to make the thing a nightmare/impossible to use.
I don't play so I really don't know. But if what you're saying is true then it's impossible to play a guitar if the speakers are like three meters (I.E 10 milliseconds) away?
 

Offline mamalala

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2015, 10:02:03 pm »
The latency is the crux IMHO, only takes a few milliseconds to make the thing a nightmare/impossible to use.
I don't play so I really don't know. But if what you're saying is true then it's impossible to play a guitar if the speakers are like three meters (I.E 10 milliseconds) away?

Which is why on medium/large stages there are monitor speakers placed on the stage, right in front of the musicians. On small stages that is usually not  the case, since the main speakers are close enough.

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Offline Neganur

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2015, 10:41:35 pm »
Have you ever tried talking to someone on the phone and you could hear yourself as an echo? It's impossible to talk. 40 ms is enough to drive me nuts.

It's the same with instruments, if you have to sync play with others and your sound comes say 20-50ms later than your strum, it affects your play.
Sound technicians can probably tell you a little more about the need for a delay on bigger stages with speakers far apart.

The 10 ms you refer to are probably hard to detect for most people but for reference, a metal shred with 1/16th strum at 200bpm are 75 ms apart.
 

Offline tekthead

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2015, 10:50:21 pm »
SMSC, now a part of Microchip provides one wireless solution, Kleernet, which exists within the 2.4GHz range. Models of modules such as the DWPCle83 would satisfy the low latency, high QOS requirements of this type of application but having attempted this type of solution in my first year of uni, the solutions are non-trivial and co-existence is a BIG issue. If you are really unlucky a system like this will bunny hop across sub-bands when two such systems are placed together and the effective bandwidth is reduced massively to the point where ugly digital audio glitching occurs.

I am not quite sure they have provided enough detail about pairing and provisioning. Audio is probably carried as UDP packets. Both TCP and UDP still need a port and IP settings in place to communicate. Currently this appears to happen "magically".
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 11:01:53 pm by tekthead »
 

Offline Yago

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2015, 01:46:24 am »
The latency is the crux IMHO, only takes a few milliseconds to make the thing a nightmare/impossible to use.
I don't play so I really don't know. But if what you're saying is true then it's impossible to play a guitar if the speakers are like three meters (I.E 10 milliseconds) away?

Yes, you can "feel" it when trying to keep tempo.
At lower you can compensate, as it increases you start to feel as though time is sliding away from you.
Gets worse when you combine instruments with different latency, IE high latency guitar playing to a zero latency backing track, and loose bass player = screwed.
I found 6mS about my comfy limit when recording.
 

Offline Christe4nM

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2015, 04:35:02 am »
There is another design flaw that has nothing to do with the electronics: the size and weight (how little it may be) will wear out your guitar's jack really fast. Even a large (Neutrik) jack plug on your guitar cable can do that. If you're just playing at home that might not happen, but go on stage every so often and your gear must be able to handle a beating even when playing the slowest smoothest jazz. So any weight that is mechanically only supported by the jack output of the guitar (of effects pedal) is a big NO.  :--

And indeed: there is a reason why not many guitarist use a wireless setup, or if they do it is a very expensive one...
 

Offline Yago

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2015, 06:54:13 am »
I wonder if the market for this is the "bedroom producer"?
Would make sense that home studios might want to avoid the high price of pro gear.
They are also more likely to think new is better of recording technology.
 

Offline iampoor

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2015, 07:32:34 pm »
I wonder if the market for this is the "bedroom producer"?
Would make sense that home studios might want to avoid the high price of pro gear.
They are also more likely to think new is better of recording technology.

I dont know anyone who records guitars wirelessly.....a 20$ 20ft cable does the job just fine.
 

Offline george graves

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2015, 08:10:18 pm »
But, does it go to 11?

Offline Yago

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 04:41:25 am »
I wonder if the market for this is the "bedroom producer"?
Would make sense that home studios might want to avoid the high price of pro gear.
They are also more likely to think new is better of recording technology.

I dont know anyone who records guitars wirelessly.....a 20$ 20ft cable does the job just fine.

Yep, but some of these bedroom producers are crackers (profools?).
 

Offline MFX

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2015, 09:46:11 am »
One wrong move and that jack's going to snap clean off.
 

Offline iampoor

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 02:03:44 pm »
I wonder if the market for this is the "bedroom producer"?
Would make sense that home studios might want to avoid the high price of pro gear.
They are also more likely to think new is better of recording technology.

I dont know anyone who records guitars wirelessly.....a 20$ 20ft cable does the job just fine.

Yep, but some of these bedroom producers are crackers (profools?).

 :-DD
Yes.....oh yes....
I can see it now, someone using an xlr to ts converter cable with one of these to "wirelessly" record vocals.  >:D
 

Offline kizzap

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2015, 10:37:34 pm »
:-DD
Yes.....oh yes....
I can see it now, someone using an xlr to ts converter cable with one of these to "wirelessly" record vocals.  >:D

To be fair, these days they are more likely to be recording it with their iPhone.
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Offline iampoor

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2015, 09:05:47 am »
:-DD
Yes.....oh yes....
I can see it now, someone using an xlr to ts converter cable with one of these to "wirelessly" record vocals.  >:D

To be fair, these days they are more likely to be recording it with their iPhone.

Or a 50-100$ recording interface? Ive never met a musician...even hobbyist doing iphone recordings...interfaces and PC software is so cheap now!
 

Offline Neganur

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2015, 10:50:34 pm »
Or a 50-100$ recording interface? Ive never met a musician...even hobbyist doing iphone recordings...interfaces and PC software is so cheap now!

You should perhaps think about your sample size. "I've never met..."

If we forget about that wifi thing for a moment, the AD converters in those iRig HD things are no worse than those in other equipment. All you gain is more features and channels.
And don't forget that Apple is really strong when it comes to recording music so I don't think you should throw a generalised "not doing iphone recordings" out there unless you make clear that you are still talking about that kickstarter wifi thing that tries to be everything and the kitchen sink.

 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2015, 10:56:45 pm »

And don't forget that Apple is really strong when it comes to recording music so I don't think you should throw a generalised "not doing iphone recordings" out there unless you make clear that you are still talking about that kickstarter wifi thing that tries to be everything and the kitchen sink.

That's right, audio creatives are considered right at the OS with Apple stuff, unlike on a PC and Android where you're dependent on bolt ons from third parties.

 

Offline Yago

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Re: A cool Kickstarter I found - JACK The WiFi Guitar Cable
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2015, 08:30:46 am »
Not sure about the IPhone recording posts.

Trust me an IPhone or even a good PC soundcard doesn't come close to the quality of a decent interface.

Even the some of the apple compatible "Pro"kit is not so good, IE Mbox.
Apple got the lead with ProTools package, but this was a hardware based processing system, the work was not native, the computer handled the UI and files.
It is a dinosaur that died years ago, pro tools light being inferior when new.

Even freeware PC packages like Reaper run protools into the ground these days(actually for some years).

The "bolt ons" are actually a standard that exist in all recording environments, and are often where the cutting edge is, such a melodyne DNA was the latest thing when I last hit the button. At that time the only thing the Apple system had was the stability of the OS (as always!).
 


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