Author Topic: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter  (Read 31578 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« on: December 04, 2017, 01:08:43 pm »
The 121GW Multimeter is now available on Kickstarter!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/eevblog/eevblog-121gw-multimeter/

 
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Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2017, 01:14:50 pm »
I backed the early bird first production model, but I'm wondering if it would be better to wait until the second batch.

EDIT: One year warranty, she'll be right!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 01:32:30 pm by nidlaX »
 

Online blueskull

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2017, 01:15:35 pm »
Ordered. Hope USPS won't lose my package again.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2017, 01:19:00 pm »
Hello Dave,

I would have loved to get one of the early bird meters and support your awesome project! Have been following this with a lot of curiosity here on the forums - as most likely all of us living in a corner on the forums :)

Sadly Kickstarter only offers credit card for payment so basically I am fucked. I do not own a credit card nor will I in the future. This is bollocks :'(
Any options getting hold of one any other way?

Thanks and kind regards,
Frederik
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2017, 01:20:29 pm »
100% funded already! W00t!

 

Online DaJMasta

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2017, 01:23:43 pm »
Dave, congrats on the goal being met so fast!  Any info on what accessories come with the meter?  Looked through the manual and while a few are pictured, I don't see a 'what's in the box' section or anything.

Offline chriswebb

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2017, 01:28:37 pm »
Dave, congrats on the goal being met so fast!  Any info on what accessories come with the meter?  Looked through the manual and while a few are pictured, I don't see a 'what's in the box' section or anything.

A case, some brymen BM235 probes, and a thermocouple: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/eevblog/eevblog-121gw-multimeter/description#prototype-slide-107474
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Online IanB

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2017, 01:35:20 pm »
I do not own a credit card nor will I in the future.

How can you pay for things without a credit card? Credit cards offer much more security for the purchaser than other payment methods.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline Bratster

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2017, 01:38:46 pm »
Just backed. I see in the manual there is a note that there is an optional accessory of a magnetic hanger. Do you know what the pricing would be on that? Is it possible that would be a stretch goal to be included?

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Offline chriswebb

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2017, 01:41:12 pm »
I do not own a credit card nor will I in the future.

Any particular reason you choose to not have a credit card? As long as you pay it off every month, you will not pay any interest and there numerous perks to them for consumer protection as IanB said. Besides that, you can buy prepaid credit cards that you re-charge with cash. You can even use bitcoin with something like: https://bitpay.com/card (Checked and it appears to work in the EU...)

edit: updated the url to point directly to the card.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 01:43:46 pm by chriswebb »
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Online blueskull

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2017, 01:43:30 pm »
I do not own a credit card nor will I in the future. This is bollocks :'(
Any options getting hold of one any other way?

Do you have a debit card?
Don't know other countries, but in China and US and Japan and Korea (countries I've been to), a debit card can be swiped just as a credit card, just sometimes with password requirement.
For the first 3 years in US I didn't have a credit card, and I have absolutely no problems with a debit card. I don't have a credit card in China till this day, and no problems at all!
 

Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2017, 01:44:41 pm »
It might be a good idea to link directly to Dave2's Android app on the Play Store when it's published. There's already a "121GW" multimeter app on there, so it would be useful to distinguish between official and 3rd party versions.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2017, 01:48:49 pm »
How can you pay for things without a credit card? Credit cards offer much more security for the purchaser than other payment methods.

Unlike in the U.S. credit cards are not a thing here in Germany. I pay cash or with my banking card (debit card) in the real world and for online purchases it is either debit card, bank transfer as advance payment or Paypal // Amazon payments.

Do you have a debit card?

Yes, but KS does not support that option :(
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 01:53:59 pm by frozenfrogz »
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Offline xrunner

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2017, 01:56:19 pm »
How can you pay for things without a credit card? Credit cards offer much more security for the purchaser than other payment methods.

Man I gotta have my credit card!

Speaking of which, I just got my new one in the mail. The newest VISA ones are different now. The chip is there yes ... but the old embossed numbers are totally gone now on the front. NO numbers on the front at all. They are laser etched on the back.

It already broke the Wal Mat Scan & Go app, because it says to scan the front of the card to input your new card ... LOL. I called Wal Mart and told them to get with the program!  :clap:
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Online blueskull

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2017, 01:58:29 pm »
Yes, but KS does not support that option :(

US debit cards can be used as credit cards. Is yours a Visa/Master/whatever, or it is issued just by your bank without a credit card company?
 

Offline chriswebb

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2017, 02:01:40 pm »
From this site: https://www.deutscheskonto.org/en/credit-card/ Seems like prepaid credit card would be your best bet unless you bank can offer you a visa or mastercard.
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Offline Circlotron

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2017, 02:08:02 pm »
No C-tick mark?
 

Online blueskull

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2017, 02:12:28 pm »
This thing sells really well... When I put my order there were only $28k pledged, and now it's been $68k. $40k (160 units) sold in 55 minutes, or 3 per minute!
 

Online s8548a

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2017, 02:28:37 pm »
Last week only I have ordered an Agilent U1252a, but with VA measurement and built in uCurrent cant resist on this one.  :scared:

Congrats @Dave for successful quick funding.

btw is there a datasheet available?
 

Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2017, 02:30:51 pm »
Last week only I have ordered an Agilent U1252a, but with VA measurement and built in uCurrent cant resist on this one.  :scared:

Congrats @Dave for successful quick funding.

btw is there a datasheet available?
http://www.eevblog.com/files/EEVblog-121GW-Manual.pdf
 
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Online BravoV

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2017, 02:34:40 pm »
100% funded already! W00t!


Damn, this thing selling like hot cakes, looks like you've underestimated yourself.  :-DD

Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2017, 02:39:17 pm »
FYI, Dave is livestreaming on Kickstarter right now.
 
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Online IanB

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2017, 02:55:22 pm »
Unlike in the U.S. credit cards are not a thing here in Germany.

I understand that might have been the case in the past, but it is now 2017!

In the UK where I am from, the law makes credit card issuers jointly responsible with the seller for anything bought with a credit card. So if anything goes wrong and you cannot reclaim the money from the seller, you can reclaim the whole amount from the card issuer. Therefore it is foolish not to use a credit card for purchases.

The law may not give you that protection in Germany (I don't know), but you can certainly get a credit card in Germany, and you will find it very difficult to travel internationally without one.
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Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2017, 04:22:15 pm »
Shoutout to Dave2 for developing a very nice looking app.

https://gitlab.com/Sepps/app-112gw
 

Offline savageautomate

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2017, 04:28:32 pm »
 

Offline WastelandTek

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2017, 04:47:51 pm »
Damn Dave

that looks great!

loving the 4@AA batteries
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Offline PCChazter

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2017, 05:54:12 pm »
121GW! Dave, please tell me back to the future was inspiration for the model number!

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2017, 05:58:01 pm »
121GW! Dave, please tell me back to the future was inspiration for the model number!

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Really?
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2017, 06:33:26 pm »
Unlike in the U.S. credit cards are not a thing here in Germany. I pay cash or with my banking card (debit card) in the real world and for online purchases it is either debit card, bank transfer as advance payment or Paypal // Amazon payments.

Unlike most the world I think.  What you have to understand is that the US has a very odd banking system comprised of not only gigantic banks but also little "Mom 'n Pop" institutions.  So while for me transferring money you have safely, securely and instantly between one of our schedule A banks goes without saying, this isn't available in the US because some of these small resource limited banks.  Honestly, some take weeks to clear a cheque.
So the solution for them is to use credit:  since it takes too long for some of the banks to agree you have the money you say you do, instead you rely on VISA or whatever to say "Yeah, he's good for it."
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2017, 06:44:19 pm »
121GW! Dave, please tell me back to the future was inspiration for the model number!

cough...

It´s hell of a multimeter. Can´t never have enough of those.
 

Offline Barny

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2017, 07:54:46 pm »
Aaand they're gone.

I ran to the next shop which have prepayed credit cards.
But the time I reached the shop, all (erarly bird) DMMs where gone.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 09:52:34 pm by Barny »
 
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Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2017, 07:57:17 pm »
Unlike in the U.S. credit cards are not a thing here in Germany. I pay cash or with my banking card (debit card) in the real world and for online purchases it is either debit card, bank transfer as advance payment or Paypal // Amazon payments.

Unlike most the world I think.  What you have to understand is that the US has a very odd banking system comprised of not only gigantic banks but also little "Mom 'n Pop" institutions.

Sorry for all the OT chatter, mandatory credit card is kind of a red flag for me. Since all the early birds are gone by now it really does not matter any more. Maybe I will order one or two when those are available through the regular EEVBlog shop.

I do not know about other countries, but here in Germany a credit card will cost you at least 30€ per year plus you pay something like 2% fees on transactions outside of the EU. Taking into account, that for me there are no recognizable benefits and almost everyone else will offer some sort of payment method I already can provide, I can not justify paying for one.

I have been traveling the world without a credit card for years and it has never been an issue. I usually pay cash and can withdraw money from a savings account via VISA plus terminals as a service from my bank free of charge world wide in case I need it.
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Offline JoeBee

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2017, 08:22:37 pm »
Hm, Europeans are screwed. All gone during sleep :=\  I just look up at kickstarter in the morning and all early birds are gone. To wait an extra of 4 month is not a problem for me, but  to pay more for waiting is not an option. No meter for Joe.
 

Offline Barny

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2017, 08:26:21 pm »
I don't think the DMM will much more expensive at Amazon.
The problem is that Amazon don't sell to Austria.
 

Offline gsm2k

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2017, 09:24:36 pm »
First time I have ever backed anything on Kickstarter. Cant wait  ;D
 

Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2017, 09:31:04 pm »
To wait an extra of 4 month is not a problem for me, but  to pay more for waiting is not an option.
Really? An extra 10 euros is enough to kill the deal?
 

Offline markus-k

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2017, 09:50:17 pm »
Wow, 230k AUD already, crazy. I guess I'll have to get one, great looking multimeter with some nice functions I don't really have available on my bench atm.

Since I never order from outside of europe usually, I do have to expect VAT and customs charges, right? Some 20% on top of the 290AUD in Germany I guess?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2017, 10:00:59 pm »
Really? An extra 10 euros is enough to kill the deal?
There's always someone who finds a way of turning a nice thing into a problem.
 

Offline Barny

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2017, 10:17:57 pm »
@markus-k

290AU$ are something around 180 to 185 Euro.
That's not that bad for this kind of features.

But yes, the toll taxes are interesting.
The costs here in Austria are 20% VAT because it's over 22Euro.
10 Euro additional postal fee .
and toll tax because the DMM costs more then 150Euro (I didn't have the exact percentage. I still wait for the answer of the BMF but I think it will be something around 5%)
 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 10:24:02 pm by Barny »
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2017, 10:18:12 pm »
Since I never order from outside of europe usually, I do have to expect VAT and customs charges, right? Some 20% on top of the 290AUD in Germany I guess?

To import electronics from outside the EU you need to pay customs duty and value-added tax on values above 150€. (VAT always applies for values above ca. 23€)
I do not know the exact percentage for this kind of measurement devices but my guess is something like 3.7%.

Number crunching:

121GW incl. shipping ca. 188€*
+ import duties 6.96€
= 194.96€
+ VAT 37.04€
Total 232€

*plus additional handling fee for credit card usage, this is not tax relevant however

Edit: That totals to around AU$ 367 incl. taxes and 2% handling fees
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 10:22:39 pm by frozenfrogz »
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Offline markus-k

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2017, 10:51:07 pm »
Number crunching:

121GW incl. shipping ca. 188€*
+ import duties 6.96€
= 194.96€
+ VAT 37.04€
Total 232€

*plus additional handling fee for credit card usage, this is not tax relevant however

Edit: That totals to around AU$ 367 incl. taxes and 2% handling fees

cool, thanks. Thats still less than I paid for my Fluke 175 iirc.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2017, 11:05:46 pm »
cool, thanks. Thats still less than I paid for my Fluke 175 iirc.
Pretty much any multimeter is going to cost less than a comparable Fluke. The Fluke premium can be ridiculous.
 
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Online IanJ

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2017, 11:10:14 pm »
Hi all,

Well, I have a workshop with a load of DMM's......but there's always room for another so have backed this. Got caught out here in the UK with the time difference so missed the 1st batch so am in the 2nd. Oh well!

Ian.
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Offline TassiloH

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2017, 11:34:30 pm »
I do not know about other countries, but here in Germany a credit card will cost you at least 30€ per year plus you pay something like 2% fees on transactions outside of the EU. Taking into account, that for me there are no recognizable benefits and almost everyone else will offer some sort of payment method I already can provide, I can not justify paying for one.

Sorry for the OT, but this isn't really true. There are various free checking accounts that come with a free Visa- or Mastercard credit card (comdirect bank for example). There are also other possibilities: Barclaycard e.g. offers its New Visa without a yearly fee.
The cards with a yearly fee may be worth it if one is travelling to non-Euro countries or buying a lot from there. For about 70 EUR/year one can get cards that do not have any currency conversion fees or unfavorable exchange rates like Paypal, but use the "real" exchange rate of the day, which saves about 2%. So if one spends more than about 4000 US$ per year for example, this is worth the yearly fee (which typically includes some useful and not so useful insurances like travel health insurance, lowering the break-even point somewhat).
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2017, 12:33:15 am »
Nice job and glad it's taken off so well.   :clap:

Not sure I really need a meter of that high a spec.. but I'm having a serious think about it.
 

Offline cezar

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2017, 12:56:16 am »
Hm, Europeans are screwed. All gone during sleep :=\  I just look up at kickstarter in the morning and all early birds are gone. To wait an extra of 4 month is not a problem for me, but  to pay more for waiting is not an option. No meter for Joe.
 
Correct - I was really lucky. My kid was unwell all night and I accidentally got the YT notification.
Probably, I will be one of very few Europeans who gets it in the fist batch.

c.
 
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2017, 01:01:15 am »
Since I never order from outside of europe usually, I do have to expect VAT and customs charges, right? Some 20% on top of the 290AUD in Germany I guess?

To import electronics from outside the EU you need to pay customs duty and value-added tax on values above 150€. (VAT always applies for values above ca. 23€)
I do not know the exact percentage for this kind of measurement devices but my guess is something like 3.7%.

Number crunching:

121GW incl. shipping ca. 188€*
+ import duties 6.96€
= 194.96€
+ VAT 37.04€
Total 232€

*plus additional handling fee for credit card usage, this is not tax relevant however
Edit: That totals to around AU$ 367 incl. taxes and 2% handling fees

I'll see what I can do.
Perhaps bulk shipping to the EU and having someone distribute internally is the best way to go for all?
 

Offline cezar

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2017, 01:11:27 am »
Quote
I'll see what I can do.
Perhaps bulk shipping to the EU and having someone distribute internally is the best way to go for all?

VAT has to be paid anyway. Perhaps you could choose a country with a lowest VAT rate but the diff will be only a couple %.
You would probably save on shipping a bit.

 

Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2017, 01:13:18 am »
Currently #2 under Popular projects on the Kickstarter frontpage, and it's about to break $200K USD! :-+
 

Offline Messtechniker

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2017, 01:19:31 am »
Great! 8) But I'll wait. In the mean time: is it possible to access the data
spewn out via bluetooth on windows live through a virtual COM port?
I am asking, because I would like to post-process the data using Profilab
which otherwise would need a special driver - something which will never
happen.  :--

Anyway congratulations to a fine product; apparently after having  thoroughly
researched market needs. :-+
Agilent 34465A, Hameg HMO1022, R&S HMC 8043, Voltcraft VC 940 and M-Audio Audiophile 192
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2017, 01:35:11 am »
...
121GW incl. shipping ca. 188€*
+ import duties 6.96€
= 194.96€
+ VAT 37.04€
Total 232€
I've just checked, and I think multi-meters are 9030320000, which have 0% import duty.
What is the 6.96€ based on? Only VAT + handling fee apply, right?

Also, credit cards are still not common over here. We enjoy similar protection on our debit cards by law.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 01:36:53 am by Jeroen3 »
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2017, 01:36:58 am »
Though I pulled the trigger on the Agilent 1282A as soon as I first saw its capabilities (the portable (~800 hours) and fast (40 readings per second) logging feature, especially --let the 16-bit count display), I would not hesitate a moment to get that new beast because of its hackability; which (meaning the firmware hacking) is something that (even I, personally...) would be very hesitant to even think of doing to the Agilent 1282A...

Yes, I know, I should grow up a little more, sometime in my life!
But I won't; and you can take this to the bank! :P

Kudos to you, Dave!


-George
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline savageautomate

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2017, 01:42:23 am »
Great! 8) But I'll wait. In the mean time: is it possible to access the data spewn out via bluetooth on windows live through a virtual COM port?
I am asking, because I would like to post-process the data using Profilab which otherwise would need a special driver - something which will never happen.  :--

No it won't support a virtual com port out of the box.  It's BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) which does not support a COM profile using standard BT drivers. 

I'm pretty confident this can easily be overcome with a little USB attached bluetooth module such as an Adafruit nRF52 or ESP32 module running some custom code to collect the data via BLE and proxy it out on USB port using a virtual com.
 


 
 

Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2017, 01:56:06 am »
Great! 8) But I'll wait. In the mean time: is it possible to access the data spewn out via bluetooth on windows live through a virtual COM port?
I am asking, because I would like to post-process the data using Profilab which otherwise would need a special driver - something which will never happen.  :--

No it won't support a virtual com port out of the box.  It's BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) which does not support a COM profile using standard BT drivers. 

I'm pretty confident this can easily be overcome with a little USB attached bluetooth module such as an Adafruit nRF52 or ESP32 module running some custom code to collect the data via BLE and proxy it out on USB port using a virtual com.
 


 
https://www.adafruit.com/product/2267
 

Offline chefkoch84

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2017, 02:16:23 am »
Damn!!
Not checked the forum for one day  ---> already handled down almost 1000 positions on the backers list;-)
I am looking forward to this!!! Thanks a lot
Greetings
Max
 

Offline Barny

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2017, 02:25:53 am »
I'll see what I can do.
Perhaps bulk shipping to the EU and having someone distribute internally is the best way to go for all?

VAT has to be paid anyway. Perhaps you could choose a country with a lowest VAT rate but the diff will be only a couple %.
You would probably save on shipping a bit.
As far as I know, UK has the best import tax conditions within the EU.
But this import-loop hole will be closed the next few years.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2017, 02:42:37 am »
I've just checked, and I think multi-meters are 9030320000, which have 0% import duty.
What is the 6.96€ based on? Only VAT + handling fee apply, right?

Also, credit cards are still not common over here. We enjoy similar protection on our debit cards by law.

You seem to be right, I did not know that multimeters were exempt from import duties! 6.96€ was based on 3.7% duty as for other electronic devices not for recreational use, such as GPS-devices.
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 

Offline savageautomate

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2017, 02:42:59 am »
Great! 8) But I'll wait. In the mean time: is it possible to access the data spewn out via bluetooth on windows live through a virtual COM port?
I am asking, because I would like to post-process the data using Profilab which otherwise would need a special driver - something which will never happen.  :--

No it won't support a virtual com port out of the box.  It's BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy) which does not support a COM profile using standard BT drivers. 

I'm pretty confident this can easily be overcome with a little USB attached bluetooth module such as an Adafruit nRF52 or ESP32 module running some custom code to collect the data via BLE and proxy it out on USB port using a virtual com.

https://www.adafruit.com/product/2267

I looked into that module a few weeks ago because it seemed perfectly suited at first ... but I'm not sure it will work.  I think you will need a module that can act as a BLE "central" device allowing it to attach to BLE "peripherals". 

See Q&A #2 on this page:  https://learn.adafruit.com/introducing-adafruit-ble-bluetooth-low-energy-friend/faq

The Adafruit Feather nRF52 (http://amzn.to/2iigl2J) (https://www.adafruit.com/product/3406) can act as "Central" devices according to their documentation. 

The SparkFun ESP32 Thing (http://amzn.to/2ihd9UY) should work as well as the cheaper ESP32 modules (http://amzn.to/2iii740).  BLE is still somewhat of a work in progress in the Arduino stack for the ESP32 modules but I was able to get some basic communication working with a BLE multimeter I have on hand.  Just waiting for the 121GW to arrive to take a deeper dive on this effort.   
 

 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2017, 03:08:11 am »
You can also get a dev kit such as a CC2650 or CC2640R2 Launchpad - IIRC they have example code that runs BLE Central...  I have never tested it, though...
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

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Offline Scottjd

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2017, 03:19:45 am »
I don’t need another multimeter, (so I keep telling myself this) but this does have logging ability, and some other features I find nice in this price range like the VA measurement, low burden voltage, burden voltage display, micro current, 15v diode checker, built in Flux capacitor and more. For all this in one meter in the palm of my hand, well I have to give this one a try.

I think the only current thing I can think of that might be nice for Version 2 in the future would be a kelvin 4 resistance testing. Even if this came at an extra cost for a special set of add on probes to make it possible with just plugging into two jacks that are wired in a special way.

After skimming the manual I did have one idea.
I was surprised to see it can be calibrated by the user and I like this feature, thank you.
So the idea is a way to dump the EEPROM calibration data to the SD card before making any changes. This also allows to restore the meter to the default or previous calibration.

Maybe this could be a future firmware feature update to include a way to backup the calibration data. Do a EEPROM dump and write the data to the SD card. Maybe keep the last 5 calibration data files on the SD card, one being the factory calibration for default factory restore, and 4 user calibrations that can also be used to track any drift over the years.
You could make this a menu to do a manual backup of the calibration data, or make it a requirement to have an SD card installed so the firmware writes the calibration data before any new calibration perimeters are saved, or both?

I also understand that memory space could be limited for firmware, so it might be easier to add a way to remotely pull the calibration data over blutooth with a single command added to the firmware for this EEPROM dump. Being that most of the code will be on github I’m sure someone will write an app or script to pull the calibration backup remotely over a Bluetooth terminal (if it supports Bluetooth terminal) as long as a command was built into the firmware to do the calibration EEPROM query?

Side Notes: I’m sure the manual is still being worked on with final touches, or is this the completed manual? If it’s comoleted I noticed at the bottom of page 58 it satiates CALIBRATION REFERENCE TABLE, but nothing follows this.
And the temperature calibration still says pending procedure, maybe this part isn’t comoleted yet?

Just some random thoughts.
Looking forward to receiving the new meter.
Thank you,
Scott
Please be sure to check out my YouTube channel and subscribe if you like the videos. http://www.youtube.com/c/GadgetReviewVideos

By people subscribing and giving thumbs up I know what I am doing is still wanted and adding value, then will continue to release new videos. Thank you for your support.
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2017, 03:24:45 am »
Quote
I'll see what I can do.
Perhaps bulk shipping to the EU and having someone distribute internally is the best way to go for all?
You would probably save on shipping a bit.
If you send a crate to Europe directly from the factory then you also save the cost of sending it to Dave first.

 

Offline chefkoch84

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2017, 04:25:51 am »
Just passed the 1000 meters threshold...
Is there an upper limit for the first bigger batch? (e.g. parts in stock etc.)

If some are shipped directly Korea --> Europe,
then we will accept that Dave does not sign every meter personally...

Greetings
Max

 

Offline Decoman

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2017, 05:03:08 am »
Sigh, I ordered both a DMM AND the uCurrent product the other day. :D
 

Offline ballanux

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2017, 06:07:04 am »
Maybe I didn't need a new multimeter... But this is The EEVBlog multimeter, I couldn't pass that!  :-DMM

 

Offline digi

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2017, 06:16:08 am »
Can't wait to get mine  :)

Dave,
I was looking through the pdf manual and found a couple of typos.
Page 27:


Page 43:


 

Offline skogen75

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2017, 06:40:31 am »
Backer 528 here...missed the first batch, but looking forward (already have the EEVblog BM235, BTW). 

Anyway, was going through the manual and was wondering about the Low Burden voltage statement.  Am I way wrong or do the specifications state a relatively normal burden voltage specification.  100microV/microA, same as a Fluke 87V. 

I was waiting for this meter because I thought I wouldn't need the micro current (10microV/microA).  Well, either I'm miss-reading the spec or I'll still need the micro current.  Can anyone comment? Thanks.
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2017, 08:08:20 am »
Though I pulled the trigger on the Agilent 1282A as soon as I first saw its capabilities (the portable (~800 hours) and fast (40 readings per second) logging feature, especially --let the 16-bit count display), I would not hesitate a moment to get that new beast because of its hackability; which (meaning the firmware hacking) is something that (even I, personally...) would be very hesitant to even think of doing to the Agilent 1282A...

Yes, I know, I should grow up a little more, sometime in my life!
But I won't; and you can take this to the bank! :P

Kudos to you, Dave!


-George

George do you believe that we will have an issue with custom office? Or will the shipping company clear it for us?

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline boffin

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2017, 08:37:47 am »
Quote
I'll see what I can do.
Perhaps bulk shipping to the EU and having someone distribute internally is the best way to go for all?
You would probably save on shipping a bit.
If you send a crate to Europe directly from the factory then you also save the cost of sending it to Dave first.

Once Dave has dealt with the 1st (smallish) batch, it would make perfect sense to have a Korean based freight forwarder to avoid hopping to Australia 1st
Boffin at play https://snafu.ca/
 

Offline gnavigator1007

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2017, 09:00:41 am »
Congrats Dave! Broke 1/4 million us$ and trending #1 on kickstarter. Looking forward to the meter
 

Offline Kire Pûdsje

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2017, 09:39:30 am »
Regarding CE certification, Dave please read this!!!!!
Not to criticize you. I think you are doing a great job, but you might have been slightly ill-advised regarding CE compliance. Just want to prevent you from running into troubles. Don't be afraid, it is probably only paperwork that needs correcting.
BTW on the technical side it looks like a fantastic product. I also signed up for one.

In the clip I see certificates that contain directives that are not applicable in the EU for this product.
Since the meter contains a bluetooth transmitter, the product as a whole is considered to be a radio, and should fall under the RED directive (2014/53/EU). I know it is confusing, but you do not apply the EMC and LVD directives itself, but you have to satisfy the essential requirements of the EMC directive and the LVD directive. The latter should be assessed without the voltage limit applying.
Also, you as the manufacturer should draw up your own DoC. The "test verification of conformity" and the "attestation of conformity" have no value within the EU. Only your DoC and the test reports are important.
There are also requirements to labeling. For CE among others it should contain the contact address on the label. For FCC there is the warning label (depending on the size it could also be placed in the manual)
Finally just wondering, no word about certification for Australia? (a.o. AZ/NZS 4268:2017)




Some excerpts from the RED directive:

The objectives with respect to safety requirements laid down in Directive 2014/35/EU are sufficient to cover radio equipment, and should therefore be the reference and made applicable by virtue of this Directive. In order to avoid unnecessary duplications of provisions other than those concerning such requirements, Directive 2014/35/EU should not apply to radio equipment.

The essential requirements in the area of electromagnetic compatibility laid down by Directive 2014/30/EU are sufficient to cover radio equipment, and should therefore be the reference and made applicable by virtue of this Directive. In order to avoid unnecessary duplications of provisions other than those concerning essential requirements, Directive 2014/30/EU should not apply to radio equipment.

Radio equipment falling within the scope of this Directive shall not be subject to Directive 2014/35/EU, except as set out in point (a) of Article 3(1) of this Directive.

Where compliance of radio equipment with the applicable requirements has been demonstrated by that conformity assessment procedure, manufacturers (that is you Dave, not the assembly house unless....) shall draw up an EU declaration of conformity and affix the CE marking.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 10:48:55 am by Kire Pûdsje »
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2017, 09:44:19 am »
Just wanted to say... Good on you Dave.  Congratulations on your awesome Kickstarter campaign!



 

Offline thm_w

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2017, 10:13:56 am »
Would go for it but $30 shipping plus import taxes, duties, and fees from DHL would all add up.
$30 is a solid deal for DHL express though, I certainly don't blame dave for going with one shipping company and hope it goes well (261k USD atm).

There are a few re-shippers in AU, they could revalue the package. EU buyers can consider going that route. But you certainly won't save on shipping costs, that would be ~$48 for the reship service via DHL + $8 for AU shipping.

Ordered. Hope USPS won't lose my package again.

Its DHL express not USPS, should be better.
 

Online IanB

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2017, 10:29:15 am »
Signing 1000 multimeters is a lot of extra work. How long would it take to open each box and unpack it, sign it, repack it?

I really have no wish for anyone to sign, mark or otherwise deface the product. It should be untouched, new in box.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 
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Offline stach

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2017, 10:45:36 am »
Signing 1000 multimeters is a lot of extra work. How long would it take to open each box and unpack it, sign it, repack it?

I really have no wish for anyone to sign, mark or otherwise deface the product. It should be untouched, new in box.

Aren't they gonna be placing the eevblog sticker on the meter ? I think it will be "defaced" anyhow, also i guess, no other way to place a sticker without opening the box..  ;)
 

Offline wraper

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2017, 10:46:10 am »
How can you pay for things without a credit card? Credit cards offer much more security for the purchaser than other payment methods.

Unlike in the U.S. credit cards are not a thing here in Germany. I pay cash or with my banking card (debit card) in the real world and for online purchases it is either debit card, bank transfer as advance payment or Paypal // Amazon payments.

Do you have a debit card?

Yes, but KS does not support that option :(
Where did you get that? Sure they support debit cards unless it is maestro or Visa electron crap (you did not specify what you have). But those are not supported for most online payments as well.

Quote
What forms of payment can I use to make a pledge?

You can use a debit or credit card associated with Visa, Discover, JCB, MasterCard, or American Express. Discover and JCB cards are currently only accepted for US-based projects.

We do not currently accept Maestro or Visa Electron cards. If using a pre-paid credit card, please make sure that the card has a value of at least $1 more than your pledge amount.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2017, 10:48:07 am »
Signing 1000 multimeters is a lot of extra work. How long would it take to open each box and unpack it, sign it, repack it?

I really have no wish for anyone to sign, mark or otherwise deface the product. It should be untouched, new in box.

Aren't they gonna be placing the eevblog sticker on the meter ? I think it will be "defaced" anyhow, also i guess, no other way to place a sticker without opening the box..  ;)
What sticker? It's already eevblog branded.
 

Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2017, 10:50:23 am »
Signing 1000 multimeters is a lot of extra work. How long would it take to open each box and unpack it, sign it, repack it?

I really have no wish for anyone to sign, mark or otherwise deface the product. It should be untouched, new in box.

Aren't they gonna be placing the eevblog sticker on the meter ? I think it will be "defaced" anyhow, also i guess, no other way to place a sticker without opening the box..  ;)
What sticker? It's already eevblog branded.
Dave said he has some holographic EEVblog serial number stickers, separate from the manufacturer's serial number, that he'll add to the meter.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2017, 11:29:37 am »
Would go for it but $30 shipping plus import taxes, duties, and fees from DHL would all add up.
$30 is a solid deal for DHL express though, I certainly don't blame dave for going with one shipping company and hope it goes well (261k USD atm).

I will investigate re-shippers in the EU.
 

Online IanB

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #78 on: December 05, 2017, 11:43:21 am »
I will investigate re-shippers in the EU.

I think you have time. Unfortunately for EU residents the campaign went live in the middle of the night and the early bird batch was all sold out by the time they woke up. Not sure what you could have done about that though. It's always going to be night time somewhere in the world.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline wraper

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #79 on: December 05, 2017, 11:45:02 am »
FWIW, my prediction is Dave sells 1842 DMMs in the Kickstarter campaign.
He already sold 1268 in 22 hours. IMO it will be at least 5k.
 

Offline NickS

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #80 on: December 05, 2017, 12:03:42 pm »
Since Dave is going to sell them through his store it is not imperative you buy on KS.
If you wait for the store you could be waiting quite awhile since all the Kickstarter orders need to be done first.

No problems for people willing to wait, but some of us have been waiting for 2 years with little hints dropped every now and then.  ;)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #81 on: December 05, 2017, 12:52:10 pm »
Since Dave is going to sell them through his store it is not imperative you buy on KS.
If you wait for the store you could be waiting quite awhile since all the Kickstarter orders need to be done first.

Yep, KS will be done first. There simply isn't any extra stock for me to do anything else.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #82 on: December 05, 2017, 12:53:22 pm »
FWIW, my prediction is Dave sells 1842 DMMs in the Kickstarter campaign.
He already sold 1268 in 22 hours. IMO it will be at least 5k.

Nope, not a chance. I'll be surprised if it even gets to 2k.
I have blown my wad on marketing, unless I want to keep hammering it, but that will only pick up the stragglers.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #83 on: December 05, 2017, 12:54:19 pm »
FWIW, my prediction is Dave sells 1842 DMMs in the Kickstarter campaign.

I might stop it at 1885, just because that would be a cool date ;D
 

Offline wraper

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #84 on: December 05, 2017, 01:48:28 pm »
FWIW, my prediction is Dave sells 1842 DMMs in the Kickstarter campaign.
He already sold 1268 in 22 hours. IMO it will be at least 5k.

Nope, not a chance. I'll be surprised if it even gets to 2k.
I have blown my wad on marketing, unless I want to keep hammering it, but that will only pick up the stragglers.
I place my bet it will get 2k. Although I have more multimetrs than I need, if it does not reach 2k in 5 days (I think it will happen much faster), I'll buy one myself.
 

Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #85 on: December 05, 2017, 02:54:03 pm »
Dave, when you claim "Low Burden" voltage, which meters did you have in mind for comparison? I initially thought the low current ranges on this meter would be as good as having a built-in µCurrent, but the specs seem about the same as Fluke and Brymen's offerings.
 

Online HKJ

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #86 on: December 05, 2017, 05:32:00 pm »
Dave, when you claim "Low Burden" voltage, which meters did you have in mind for comparison? I initially thought the low current ranges on this meter would be as good as having a built-in µCurrent, but the specs seem about the same as Fluke and Brymen's offerings.

You have to compare to the ranges. The worst is usual the high mA range where a 5xxxx meter can drop about 1V at 0.5A (1ohm shunt + 1ohm fuse), in the 121GW the worst is 0.1V at 50mA. The 500mA range is much lower because it uses the 10A shunt and fuse.
 

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #87 on: December 05, 2017, 05:33:13 pm »
Dave, when you claim "Low Burden" voltage, which meters did you have in mind for comparison? I initially thought the low current ranges on this meter would be as good as having a built-in µCurrent, but the specs seem about the same as Fluke and Brymen's offerings.

The uCurrent does not have any fuse protection, that's one of the reasons why it's low.
And it depends on the range.
The Brymen 869 as an example, their best meter has 3.3mV/mA, so that's 1.65V on the 500mA range, insanely high. The 121GW is only about 10mV on the 500mA range,  165 times lower!
50mA range, 121GW is 100mV vs 165mV
5mA range, 121GW is 10mV, vs 750mV!

You need to read the specs closer.
 
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Offline Paul Moir

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #88 on: December 05, 2017, 06:43:07 pm »
Would go for it but $30 shipping plus import taxes, duties, and fees from DHL would all add up.
$30 is a solid deal for DHL express though, I certainly don't blame dave for going with one shipping company and hope it goes well (261k USD atm).

I will investigate re-shippers in the EU.
I think DHL is better than FEDEX and certainly UPS for brokerage fees.  It was the last time I had one, but that was a very long time ago.  Canada Post is by far the cheapest in this regard but depending on country of origin they'll take their time.  Stuff from the UK Royal Mail comes in a couple days while stuff from China Post takes 4-6 months!  Naturally you're going to be on the hook for taxes and customs.

Congratulations on beating the towel!
 

Offline Kire Pûdsje

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #89 on: December 05, 2017, 06:50:42 pm »
Regarding shipping to EU, measuring equipment should be free from import duties (other than tax).
Please clearly indicate on the shipping form it is an "instrument for measuring electrical quantities."

I do not know if the specific clauses are the same in the EU. In the Netherlands (at least) it should fall under

TARIC
SECTION XVIII - Optical, photographic, cinematographic, measuring, checking, precision, medical or surgical instruments and apparatus; clocks and watches; musical instruments; parts and accessories thereof (chapter 90 - 92)
CHAPTER 90 - OPTICAL, PHOTOGRAPHIC, CINEMATOGRAPHIC, MEASURING, CHECKING, PRECISION, MEDICAL OR SURGICAL INSTRUMENTS AND APPARATUS; PARTS AND ACCESSORIES THEREOF
9030       Oscilloscopes, spectrum analysers and other instruments and apparatus for measuring or checking electrical quantities, excluding meters of heading 9028; instruments and apparatus for measuring or detecting alpha, beta, gamma, X-ray, cosmic or other ionising radiation
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #90 on: December 05, 2017, 08:35:38 pm »
Regarding CE certification, Dave please read this!!!!!
Not to criticize you. I think you are doing a great job, but you might have been slightly ill-advised regarding CE compliance. Just want to prevent you from running into troubles. Don't be afraid, it is probably only paperwork that needs correcting.
BTW on the technical side it looks like a fantastic product. I also signed up for one.

In the clip I see certificates that contain directives that are not applicable in the EU for this product.
Since the meter contains a bluetooth transmitter, the product as a whole is considered to be a radio, and should fall under the RED directive (2014/53/EU).

Relax, it's fine. It's fully tested to RED Directive 2014/53/EU and will be marked as such on the CE Declaration of Conformity
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #91 on: December 05, 2017, 08:45:18 pm »
Quote from: EEVblog
The 121GW is only about 10mV on the 500mA range,  165 times lower!
50mA range, 121GW is 100mV vs 165mV
5mA range, 121GW is 10mV, vs 750mV!
Do those figures include the fuse?
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Offline stach

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2017, 03:11:01 am »
Dave said he has some holographic EEVblog serial number stickers, separate from the manufacturer's serial number, that he'll add to the meter.

Good point. He'd have to unpack them anyway to put the stickers on.

Hopefully Dave comes to his senses when confronted with so much work. It made sense for the uCurrent which just had to be packed and didn't already have a serial number sticker.

Even at 1 minute per DMM it would take a week for 2000 signatures. Will it get to 2000 in the next 9 days? Would a sweep on who gets closest without going over be a good competition idea? Win a signed 121GW.  8)  ;D


David probably can do some overtime ;P
 

Online Fungus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2017, 04:26:10 am »
David probably can do some overtime ;P

You joke, but I've seen it happen.

I once worked at an unnamed video game company. We were going to give away 100 footballs signed by a very famous football player (ie. "soccer").

The football player turns up, signs half a dozen balls and leaves. What to do?

Well... you can't disappoint the fans, can you? We got one of the artist guys to do all the others.

 
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Offline eamoex

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2017, 05:18:22 am »
We got one of the artist guys to do all the others.

 :-DD That's a good one. Probably also tells you why you shouldn't ever buy autographed stuff…
 

Offline chriswebb

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2017, 06:07:48 am »
You joke, but I've seen it happen.

I once worked at an unnamed video game company. We were going to give away 100 footballs signed by a very famous football player (ie. "soccer").

The football player turns up, signs half a dozen balls and leaves. What to do?

Well... you can't disappoint the fans, can you? We got one of the artist guys to do all the others.

Was it Maradona?
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Offline Kire Pûdsje

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2017, 06:26:28 am »
Regarding CE certification, Dave please read this!!!!!
Not to criticize you. I think you are doing a great job, but you might have been slightly ill-advised regarding CE compliance. Just want to prevent you from running into troubles. Don't be afraid, it is probably only paperwork that needs correcting.
BTW on the technical side it looks like a fantastic product. I also signed up for one.

In the clip I see certificates that contain directives that are not applicable in the EU for this product.
Since the meter contains a bluetooth transmitter, the product as a whole is considered to be a radio, and should fall under the RED directive (2014/53/EU).

Relax, it's fine. It's fully tested to RED Directive 2014/53/EU and will be marked as such on the CE Declaration of Conformity

Sorry for having been too panicky. I just got afraid with you waiving around 'illegal' certificates and with the current (kickstarter) manual being a big mix-up between old and new regulations.
I can imagine, a lot of this stuff has been prepared before June 13 (The day the radio regulations have changed).

With a recent market survey of led flood lights, only 2 out of 90 were compliant to CE regulations, with 87% having serious problems (not just paperwork). This in combination with the new RED regulations being in force for half a year now causes customs to be much more stringent regarding the CE regulation. Especially Germany and Finland block a lot of stuff at customs.

I am happy now that you now have a proper DoC. Less chance of having issues with customs.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 08:36:46 am by Kire Pûdsje »
 

Offline electronic_eel

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2017, 08:28:44 am »
Some questions about the features after reading the user manual (2017-11-25 edition):

Page 26, RANGE button: the manual suggests that it is just for selecting the range of the diode test. Is this true? Doesn't it also allow to switch between manual and auto ranging in all the regular measurement functions and to manually select a specific range for e.g. dc voltage etc.? I mean even the Aneng AN8008 cheapo has selectable manual and auto ranging...

Page 46, CSV format: the manual suggests that the CSV data stored on sd card doesn't contain date and time of each data point. This would severly impact usability of this feature, as you'd have to manually note the exact time you started logging to be able to correlate the data to external events later. Especially since the meter contains a coin cell and a RTC to keep date and time this is a feature I'd expect the meter to have.

Another feature I hope the meter would have: remember the secondary function selected last time on a specific rotary switch position. So when I selected continuity test last time, I'd like the meter to automatically go to continuity (instead of ohms) when I move the rotary switch to ohms/continuity/diode. I think this should be possible since the coin cell and rtc is surely able to store a few bytes in battery backed ram without needing to wear out the flash over time.
 

Offline imidis

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2017, 03:33:31 pm »
Thanks for posting the live video replay on youtube, I could not get it to play on Kickstarter  :-+
Gone for good
 

Offline exuvo

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2017, 07:46:44 pm »
@electronic_eel No need to manually note the time as the file creation date already contains that. And storing both date and time for each measurement would be a waste of storage when you can just calculate it from the start time and number of measurements.
 

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2017, 07:57:39 pm »
@electronic_eel No need to manually note the time as the file creation date already contains that. And storing both date and time for each measurement would be a waste of storage when you can just calculate it from the start time and number of measurements.

That would require that the file date time always survives, in my experience it do not. It would also require that the logging interval is precise and known (It is configurable).
When the meter has a real time clock it is silly not to include that in the log file, it could be date as part of the filename and only time for each entry.
 

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2017, 07:59:57 pm »


Unlike in the U.S. credit cards are not a thing here in Germany. I pay cash or with my banking card (debit card) in the real world and for online purchases it is either debit card, bank transfer as advance payment or Paypal // Amazon payments.

[off topic]
I don't get the negative sentiment to credit cards and debit cards in Germany. It seems  to me that it is the only Western European country that is still fixated on cash. Whenever I stay in Germany I am still puzzled by the fact that there are restaurants and shops that don't offer payment by credit card or even debit cards.
I never have more than €40 in my wallet at home in the Netherlands but in Germany you need at least twice or triple that amount in cash with you.
A lot of parking meters do not allow card payments for example.
[/off topic]

 

Offline electronic_eel

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2017, 08:02:01 pm »
@electronic_eel No need to manually note the time as the file creation date already contains that.
Are you sure the file system code used cares for last modification date vs. creation date? Some filesystems also have reduced accuracy on file dates.

Also a slow clock drift between the configured sample rate and the real clock may introduce additional timing errors.

And storing both date and time for each measurement would be a waste of storage when you can just calculate it from the start time and number of measurements.
I'd rather use a bigger micro sd than missing correct and fine grained timing information. Micro SDs are available in 256 GB now. That should last a lot longer than even the best batteries.

 

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2017, 08:02:27 pm »
@electronic_eel No need to manually note the time as the file creation date already contains that. And storing both date and time for each measurement would be a waste of storage when you can just calculate it from the start time and number of measurements.
Storage space is hardly an issue when it uses an SD card. Even on a 2GB SD card you can store a rediculous amount of data when it is a plain csv file.

Since it has a RTC and the firmware can be upgraded by the user wouldn't it be a case of a firmware update to add timestamps to the measurements?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 08:05:13 pm by meeder »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2017, 08:31:21 pm »
Storage space is hardly an issue when it uses an SD card. Even on a 2GB SD card you can store a rediculous amount of data when it is a plain csv file.
It is if the main way to get the data out is a bluetooth link - you have to open the cover to get the card out.
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Online meeder

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2017, 08:42:51 pm »
But when you are working in the field the Bluetooth function isn't all that useful.
When using it on your workbench it isn't an issue, I assume that recording through the PC software will add timestamps to the measurements?

Can you download data from the SD card over Bluetooth?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2017, 08:45:43 pm »

When using it on your workbench it isn't an issue,
It is if the BT module is on the end of a slow-ish serial port
Quote
Can you download data from the SD card over Bluetooth?
If not, that would be a total fail.

Dave/David - what is the transfer rate for log data over Bluetooth ?
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Offline voltsandjolts

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #107 on: December 06, 2017, 09:27:29 pm »
If not, that would be a total fail.
Or perhaps, being a little less dramatic, a firmware update.
 

Offline electronic_eel

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2017, 09:41:18 pm »
Or perhaps, being a little less dramatic, a firmware update.
Dave made it clear that the firmware of the meter is not Open Source and is not going to be released. Probably some copyright stuff by UEI. I don't know if even Dave has access to the source and can build a firmware himself or if he needs UEI for that. Firmware doesn't develop itself, UEI probably wants payment from Dave for each additional bit.

So unless Dave says some feature is going to be added, I would not count on it.

That is why I was asking my questions before buying.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2017, 09:51:22 pm »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #110 on: December 06, 2017, 09:53:48 pm »

When using it on your workbench it isn't an issue,
It is if the BT module is on the end of a slow-ish serial port
Quote
Can you download data from the SD card over Bluetooth?
If not, that would be a total fail.

No you cannot, and this has been discussed before on the forum somewhere.
It is not a fail. Reading the data from the SD card over Bluetooth is not easy to do nor quick (it's BLE, and there are data rate limits and packet limits), we looked into this and it was very hard to do. It's much quicker and easier to simply remove the SD card.
It often takes longer to dick around with getting Bluetooth connected on your phone than it does the 20 seconds it takes to remove the SD card)

Quote
Dave/David - what is the transfer rate for log data over Bluetooth ?

About once a second as you see in the video.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 09:57:40 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2017, 09:58:43 pm »
Dave made it clear that the firmware of the meter is not Open Source and is not going to be released. Probably some copyright stuff by UEI. I don't know if even Dave has access to the source and can build a firmware himself or if he needs UEI for that.

I have the source code and can compile if needed (have not tried it).
 

Offline KNSSoftware

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2017, 10:10:21 pm »
Dave

On the Amp Hour you mention you wanted to make a last minute hardware change (albeit fairly minor), but was faced with the fact that 2000 boards had already been printed, and a cost that could not be absorbed.  For this reason you were going to hold back, and maybe amend the board in a subsequent board spin.  Are you planning to do this between the first Dec batch, and the April batch, using the delay as a chance to make the change?  On the same note, what happens if/when there is a hardware change, and there are potentially different board revisions, with regards to firmware updates.  Will updates need to be board revision specific?
 

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #113 on: December 06, 2017, 10:46:09 pm »
Dave, is there any chance of a future update which includes timestamps with the logged data on the SD card?
A logging meter would be useful for me but timestamps would be a necessity.
 

Offline electronic_eel

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2017, 10:50:04 pm »
Dave,

I have the source code and can compile if needed (have not tried it).
Very good.

Could you please also answer my question regarding the range button:
Page 26, RANGE button: the manual suggests that it is just for selecting the range of the diode test. Is this true? Doesn't it also allow to switch between manual and auto ranging in all the regular measurement functions and to manually select a specific range for e.g. dc voltage etc.?

Thanks.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2017, 10:50:32 pm »

When using it on your workbench it isn't an issue,
It is if the BT module is on the end of a slow-ish serial port
Quote
Can you download data from the SD card over Bluetooth?
If not, that would be a total fail.

No you cannot, and this has been discussed before on the forum somewhere.
It is not a fail. Reading the data from the SD card over Bluetooth is not easy to do nor quick (it's BLE, and there are data rate limits and packet limits), we looked into this and it was very hard to do. It's much quicker and easier to simply remove the SD card.

How accessible is it ? I thought it was behind the screwed-down fuse cover.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #116 on: December 06, 2017, 10:51:46 pm »
On the Amp Hour you mention you wanted to make a last minute hardware change (albeit fairly minor), but was faced with the fact that 2000 boards had already been printed, and a cost that could not be absorbed.  For this reason you were going to hold back, and maybe amend the board in a subsequent board spin.  Are you planning to do this between the first Dec batch, and the April batch, using the delay as a chance to make the change? 

No, not going to happen.

Quote
On the same note, what happens if/when there is a hardware change, and there are potentially different board revisions, with regards to firmware updates.  Will updates need to be board revision specific?

Maybe. Will cross that bridge if we ever come to it.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #117 on: December 06, 2017, 10:56:45 pm »
How accessible is it ? I thought it was behind the screwed-down fuse cover.

It is.
It takes less than 20 seconds to remove the holster, undo two screws (metal threaded insert), remove the battery cover and take out the SD card.
Yes, I timed it.
Hardly a chore for anyone who wants to do occasional data logging. And as I said, faster than dicking around with Bluetooth BLE and a ridiculously slow data rate.

If you are doing data logging all the time, I'd recommend buying a proper data logger with the convenient interface of your choice.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #118 on: December 06, 2017, 10:58:14 pm »
Could you please also answer my question regarding the range button:
Page 26, RANGE button: the manual suggests that it is just for selecting the range of the diode test. Is this true? Doesn't it also allow to switch between manual and auto ranging in all the regular measurement functions and to manually select a specific range for e.g. dc voltage etc.?

Yes, all the usual manual ranging on all the other functions.
 

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #119 on: December 06, 2017, 11:01:35 pm »

When using it on your workbench it isn't an issue,
It is if the BT module is on the end of a slow-ish serial port
Quote
Can you download data from the SD card over Bluetooth?
If not, that would be a total fail.

No you cannot, and this has been discussed before on the forum somewhere.
It is not a fail. Reading the data from the SD card over Bluetooth is not easy to do nor quick (it's BLE, and there are data rate limits and packet limits), we looked into this and it was very hard to do. It's much quicker and easier to simply remove the SD card.
It often takes longer to dick around with getting Bluetooth connected on your phone than it does the 20 seconds it takes to remove the SD card)

Quote
Dave/David - what is the transfer rate for log data over Bluetooth ?

About once a second as you see in the video.

Out of interest, this doc seems to demonstrate the practical limitations of BLE.
https://rigado.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/211413708/Practical-BLE-Throughput.pdf

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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #120 on: December 06, 2017, 11:21:32 pm »
>>Can you download data from the SD card over Bluetooth?
>>If not, that would be a total fail.

No you cannot, and this has been discussed before on the forum somewhere.
It is not a fail. Reading the data from the SD card over Bluetooth is not easy to do nor quick (it's BLE, and there are data rate limits and packet limits), we looked into this and it was very hard to do. It's much quicker and easier to simply remove the SD card.
It often takes longer to dick around with getting Bluetooth connected on your phone than it does the 20 seconds it takes to remove the SD card)

We did go over it some time ago but that discussion was about the prototype / preproduction meter.  Obviously there were various problems with that revision of the meter which includes the logging.  I may have gone back and cleaned up some of the posts to minimize the confusion.  With the meter being released,  I would not suggest anyone search through this old information.   
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #121 on: December 06, 2017, 11:27:30 pm »
How accessible is it ? I thought it was behind the screwed-down fuse cover.

It is.
It takes less than 20 seconds to remove the holster, undo two screws (metal threaded insert), remove the battery cover and take out the SD card.
Yes, I timed it.
Hardly a chore for anyone who wants to do occasional data logging. And as I said, faster than dicking around with Bluetooth BLE and a ridiculously slow data rate.

If you are doing data logging all the time, I'd recommend buying a proper data logger with the convenient interface of your choice.
You may well not be doing it all the time, but on the occasions you do need it, it's quite likely you will be doing multiple logging sessions, looking at results, doing another session etc., so having to swap the card could be a bit of a pain.  Apart from safety, is there any ergonomic downside to running ith the cover off  ? Are the screws self-tap or in inserts ?
I'm not familiar with the limitations of BLE - maybe instead of downloading the whole, log, some way of browsing it over BLE might be useful  as you are often looking for particular events or at a particular time. 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #123 on: December 06, 2017, 11:34:26 pm »
Dave

On the Amp Hour you mention you wanted to make a last minute hardware change (albeit fairly minor), but was faced with the fact that 2000 boards had already been printed, and a cost that could not be absorbed.  For this reason you were going to hold back, and maybe amend the board in a subsequent board spin.  Are you planning to do this between the first Dec batch, and the April batch, using the delay as a chance to make the change?  On the same note, what happens if/when there is a hardware change, and there are potentially different board revisions, with regards to firmware updates.  Will updates need to be board revision specific?

I've asked that a few times in various threads and I saw other's asking similar questions during the live feed.  For what ever the reason, they have gone unanswered.  Personally, I am not sure why it was brought up in the first place if discussing it was off limits.   With as many meters being released, I'm sure there will be countless reviews of it.  If there are problems with the hardware, I'm sure you will start hearing about them over the next several months. 
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Offline maukka

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #124 on: December 06, 2017, 11:36:22 pm »
If you need to check the logs often, why not just use the BT software on your phone or computer and see the data come in real time? The microSD card has to be accessed only when doing long unattended runs and then the removal isn't that big of a deal.
 

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #125 on: December 06, 2017, 11:48:44 pm »
  On the same note, what happens if/when there is a hardware change, and there are potentially different board revisions, with regards to firmware updates.  Will updates need to be board revision specific?
If that's done right, any new rev will have a way for the FW to determine the hardware version ( maybe just an eeprom value for HW version, written at cal /test time), and adapt accordingly - having multiple FW versions for different hardware would be a nightmare to administer, and any rev is unlikely to need so many differences that run-time adaptation isn't feasible.
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Online Fungus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #126 on: December 06, 2017, 11:51:05 pm »
I'm not familiar with the limitations of BLE

Think "1980s modems". Single-digit kBits/sec.

Edit: I meant single-digit kBytes/sec.

maybe instead of downloading the whole, log, some way of browsing it over BLE might be useful  as you are often looking for particular events or at a particular time.
Most likely you'd give up after a few minutes and just pull the damn card out.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 01:01:39 am by Fungus »
 

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #127 on: December 06, 2017, 11:54:50 pm »
It takes less than 20 seconds to remove the holster, undo two screws (metal threaded insert), remove the battery cover and take out the SD card.
Yes, I timed it.

Maybe a video showing this (plus a photo of what the meter looks on a bench like with the door left off for easy access).

What's the rated lifetime of an SD card connector (number of insertions)?

(and will joe make a machine to test that..)
 

Offline electronic_eel

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #128 on: December 07, 2017, 12:05:25 am »
(and will joe make a machine to test that..)
Joe is busy developing a machine to test the VA function of the meter with 121 GW  ^-^
 

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #129 on: December 07, 2017, 12:20:11 am »


I'm not familiar with the limitations of BLE

Think "1980s modems". Single-digit kBits/sec.
Are you exaggerating or actually quoting some design specification? SiLabs states tested transfer rates up to 8 kBytes/s using the minimum connection interval and maximum packet size. That should allow smaller logs to be transferred within a few seconds, certainly a useful feature to have.

https://www.silabs.com/community/wireless/bluetooth/knowledge-base.entry.html/2015/08/06/throughput_with_blue-Wybp
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #130 on: December 07, 2017, 12:32:59 am »
(and will joe make a machine to test that..)
Joe is busy developing a machine to test the VA function of the meter with 121 GW  ^-^
I had made two different videos showing how the VA function worked on the prototype / pre-production meter.  It had a few problems that prevented me from running it at line levels but I assume all of this has been corrected with the released version.   

Looking at a few different connectors from various brands, it seems 10K cycles min is fairly common.  Most of the meters I have now been looking at would have a worn out rotary switch long before this would fail.  My concern with it would be mechanical stress on the solder joints but maybe they have improved the support.  Time will tell how well it holds up. 
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Online Fungus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #131 on: December 07, 2017, 01:00:13 am »
I'm not familiar with the limitations of BLE

Think "1980s modems". Single-digit kBits/sec.
Are you exaggerating or actually quoting some design specification? SiLabs states tested transfer rates up to 8 kBytes/s using the minimum connection interval and maximum packet size.

Ooops! Brain fart, I meant kBytes.

But yeah, not fast, nowhere near ordinary Bluetooth.

That should allow smaller logs to be transferred within a few seconds, certainly a useful feature to have.
Maybe a future firmware feature?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 01:04:23 am by Fungus »
 

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2017, 02:23:03 am »
I'm not familiar with the limitations of BLE

Think "1980s modems". Single-digit kBits/sec.
Are you exaggerating or actually quoting some design specification? SiLabs states tested transfer rates up to 8 kBytes/s using the minimum connection interval and maximum packet size.

Ooops! Brain fart, I meant kBytes.

But yeah, not fast, nowhere near ordinary Bluetooth.

That should allow smaller logs to be transferred within a few seconds, certainly a useful feature to have.
Maybe a future firmware feature?
Not only that, but the update rate on the app should be able to match the update rate of the meter. Future firmware update indeed.
 

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2017, 05:21:34 am »
I have the source code and can compile if needed (have not tried it).

I am a little confused by this, if it's got a "Hackable ST ARM Cortex M3 processor" but no firmware source code, is it really any different from most other equipment out there?
It's not great if we literately have to hack it to make changes. (decompile, figure out the mess, inject new instructions, etc...)

I see this as a great meter that is customisable for more niche applications, particularly with the SD and Bluetooth it has a range of possibilities that aren't possible with most other things.
But if those functions aren't tweakable without lots of mucking around then it gets very difficult.

The community could write replacement firmware of course however that would be a lot of duplicated work and I'd be concerned about safeguards not being in place, potentially causing damage to the meter with the wrong combination of registers and also the calibration data not being usable.
 
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Offline savageautomate

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #134 on: December 07, 2017, 06:46:43 am »
Quote
Dave/David - what is the transfer rate for log data over Bluetooth ?
About once a second as you see in the video.

This appears to be a pretty common data sampling rate for many handheld meters that I have worked with recently (via BLE, serial, USB) that are not specialized data logging meters.  In fact many meters don't provide any configurable rate, they just broadcast the current reading about once per second when connected.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 06:51:33 am by savageautomate »
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #135 on: December 07, 2017, 07:57:19 am »
You may well not be doing it all the time, but on the occasions you do need it, it's quite likely you will be doing multiple logging sessions, looking at results, doing another session etc., so having to swap the card could be a bit of a pain.  Apart from safety, is there any ergonomic downside to running ith the cover off  ? Are the screws self-tap or in inserts ?
I'm not familiar with the limitations of BLE - maybe instead of downloading the whole, log, some way of browsing it over BLE might be useful  as you are often looking for particular events or at a particular time.

He said metal-threaded inserts. If they are not captive, probably worth putting some small o-rings or similar on them so they don't get lost.
Downloading logs over BLE is certainly possible, just going to be a lot of effort firmware wise. I have a months worth of data logged here thats 16MB. So a day would be much less than 500kB. At 5-10kB/s transfer rate (possible with android but not IOS), it would take ~1min to transfer.

If you are doing multiple sessions, probably worth purchasing another tool (or trying the wifi SD posted, that  was a good idea). But certainly there is a small market opportunity here for dave or the manufacturer to replace the BLE module with an ESP32 (was discussed before), and maybe a dot matrix display, cost could double.

I've asked that a few times in various threads and I saw other's asking similar questions during the live feed.  For what ever the reason, they have gone unanswered.  Personally, I am not sure why it was brought up in the first place if discussing it was off limits.   With as many meters being released, I'm sure there will be countless reviews of it.  If there are problems with the hardware, I'm sure you will start hearing about them over the next several months.

On amp-hour he said the hardware change was a "nice to have" and nothing to do with a design problem.

I am a little confused by this, if it's got a "Hackable ST ARM Cortex M3 processor" but no firmware source code, is it really any different from most other equipment out there?
It's not great if we literately have to hack it to make changes. (decompile, figure out the mess, inject new instructions, etc...)

I see this as a great meter that is customisable for more niche applications, particularly with the SD and Bluetooth it has a range of possibilities that aren't possible with most other things.
But if those functions aren't tweakable without lots of mucking around then it gets very difficult.

The community could write replacement firmware of course however that would be a lot of duplicated work and I'd be concerned about safeguards not being in place, potentially causing damage to the meter with the wrong combination of registers and also the calibration data not being usable.

Most lower end meters use a ROM based micro or something not easily programmable. So its a bit better than that.
About the decompiling, that would only be possible if the manufacturer did not enable write protection.
Dave/manuf could be convinced to release the format of the calibration data, if an external EEPROM has been used. If they are using something internal to the micro thats a bit trickier.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 08:06:57 am by thm_w »
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #136 on: December 07, 2017, 08:31:12 am »
About the decompiling, that would only be possible if the manufacturer did not enable write protection.

All we need is a firmware update to solve that, and of course hope that it's not encrypted.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 
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Offline G0MJW

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #137 on: December 07, 2017, 09:27:06 am »
FWIW, my prediction is Dave sells 1842 DMMs in the Kickstarter campaign.
He already sold 1268 in 22 hours. IMO it will be at least 5k.

Nope, not a chance. I'll be surprised if it even gets to 2k.
I have blown my wad on marketing, unless I want to keep hammering it, but that will only pick up the stragglers.

I have been away for work - just looked £253,045 pledged by 1606 backers with 7 days to go - that's a lot.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #138 on: December 07, 2017, 09:35:27 am »
How accessible is it ? I thought it was behind the screwed-down fuse cover.

It is.
It takes less than 20 seconds to remove the holster, undo two screws (metal threaded insert), remove the battery cover and take out the SD card.
Yes, I timed it.
Hardly a chore for anyone who wants to do occasional data logging. And as I said, faster than dicking around with Bluetooth BLE and a ridiculously slow data rate.

If you are doing data logging all the time, I'd recommend buying a proper data logger with the convenient interface of your choice.
You may well not be doing it all the time, but on the occasions you do need it, it's quite likely you will be doing multiple logging sessions, looking at results, doing another session etc., so having to swap the card could be a bit of a pain.  Apart from safety, is there any ergonomic downside to running ith the cover off  ? Are the screws self-tap or in inserts ?
I'm not familiar with the limitations of BLE - maybe instead of downloading the whole, log, some way of browsing it over BLE might be useful  as you are often looking for particular events or at a particular time.

I said the screws are metal threaded inserts, two of them.
You can run it with the case closed but screws undone (they are captive so won't fall out), and holster off if you want to whip it in and out all the time. No ergonomic issue apart from not having the holster.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #139 on: December 07, 2017, 09:38:32 am »
Dave
On the Amp Hour you mention you wanted to make a last minute hardware change (albeit fairly minor), but was faced with the fact that 2000 boards had already been printed, and a cost that could not be absorbed.  For this reason you were going to hold back, and maybe amend the board in a subsequent board spin.  Are you planning to do this between the first Dec batch, and the April batch, using the delay as a chance to make the change?  On the same note, what happens if/when there is a hardware change, and there are potentially different board revisions, with regards to firmware updates.  Will updates need to be board revision specific?

I've asked that a few times in various threads and I saw other's asking similar questions during the live feed.  For what ever the reason, they have gone unanswered.  Personally, I am not sure why it was brought up in the first place if discussing it was off limits.

I did not see those comments in the live thread.
Not trying to hide anything, I just thought of a feature we could maybe add at the last minute but it was too far gone. No big deal.
 

Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #140 on: December 07, 2017, 09:43:47 am »


You may well not be doing it all the time, but on the occasions you do need it, it's quite likely you will be doing multiple logging sessions, looking at results, doing another session etc., so having to swap the card could be a bit of a pain.  Apart from safety, is there any ergonomic downside to running ith the cover off  ? Are the screws self-tap or in inserts ?
I'm not familiar with the limitations of BLE - maybe instead of downloading the whole, log, some way of browsing it over BLE might be useful  as you are often looking for particular events or at a particular time.

He said metal-threaded inserts. If they are not captive, probably worth putting some small o-rings or similar on them so they don't get lost.
Downloading logs over BLE is certainly possible, just going to be a lot of effort firmware wise. I have a months worth of data logged here thats 16MB. So a day would be much less than 500kB. At 5-10kB/s transfer rate (possible with android but not IOS), it would take ~1min to transfer.

If you are doing multiple sessions, probably worth purchasing another tool (or trying the wifi SD posted, that  was a good idea). But certainly there is a small market opportunity here for dave or the manufacturer to replace the BLE module with an ESP32 (was discussed before), and maybe a dot matrix display, cost could double.
With an STM32, you should be able to compress the log file before transfer, further reducing file size.

I would definitely back an upgraded version with graphical display and an ESP32 onboard, even if it meant battery life taking a hit and cost going up.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #141 on: December 07, 2017, 09:56:56 am »
I have the source code and can compile if needed (have not tried it).

I am a little confused by this, if it's got a "Hackable ST ARM Cortex M3 processor" but no firmware source code, is it really any different from most other equipment out there?
It's not great if we literately have to hack it to make changes. (decompile, figure out the mess, inject new instructions, etc...)

Well, I guess you aren't wrong. What was meant by that term is that there is a header inside to do this, and the schematic is open.

Quote
The community could write replacement firmware of course however that would be a lot of duplicated work and I'd be concerned about safeguards not being in place, potentially causing damage to the meter with the wrong combination of registers and also the calibration data not being usable.

I'll talk to them and see what we can release.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #142 on: December 07, 2017, 09:58:16 am »
This appears to be a pretty common data sampling rate for many handheld meters that I have worked with recently (via BLE, serial, USB) that are not specialized data logging meters.  In fact many meters don't provide any configurable rate, they just broadcast the current reading about once per second when connected.

That's basically how it works. We have not looked into the source code for the actual date rate or how the timing is implemented.
 

Offline Kire Pûdsje

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #143 on: December 07, 2017, 10:35:45 am »
I have the source code and can compile if needed (have not tried it).

I am a little confused by this, if it's got a "Hackable ST ARM Cortex M3 processor" but no firmware source code, is it really any different from most other equipment out there?
It's not great if we literately have to hack it to make changes. (decompile, figure out the mess, inject new instructions, etc...)

Well, I guess you aren't wrong. What was meant by that term is that there is a header inside to do this, and the schematic is open.

Quote
The community could write replacement firmware of course however that would be a lot of duplicated work and I'd be concerned about safeguards not being in place, potentially causing damage to the meter with the wrong combination of registers and also the calibration data not being usable.

I'll talk to them and see what we can release.
I can think of two main reasons for not releasing.
1: commercial/IP reasons.
2: compliance issues with FCC part 15 & RED.
If it is the second, and your supplier has no problems with it, then somebody could always 'accidentally misplace' files on a server ;-). This way from a compliance point of view the manufacturer can still maintain that the product does not officiallly support 'alternative' firmwares.
 

Offline Scottjd

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #144 on: December 07, 2017, 10:55:40 am »
I don’t think it matter if you don’t have an andriod phone that supports BLE at all.
Andriod was late to release BLE stacks, so you have to have andriod 4.3 or higher from what I was reading.
And the chipset that supports it also, I think this is 4.0.
Unlike iOS Apple devices that have supported Bluetooth BLE for a much longer time.
So I own 4 andriod devices, 2 phones, 2 tablets. And a common problem with andriod is the cellular or phone manufacturer is responsible for the andriod updates. Well 3 of these 4 I own are Samsung, and I just checked them all despite 2 of them having the proper Bluetooth hardware Samsung never released the version of andriod for BLE to work correctly. They are all running 4.2.? or lower and won’t support the BLE blutooth stack.

A lot of people with older andriod phones might be surprised when they can’t conect to the phone they own or update andriod (without needing to root it) to work with the hardware that supports it built into the phone they already own.  They will probably blame the meter, so be ready for this.

Usually their is a reason people develop the app for iOS first, and port it to andriod then windows. Because you can see the true ability of the Bluetooth device with the proper drivers and support for BLE on Apple devices. And I think (but I don’t code myself) that most libraries used in the apple development environment are usually all compatible with compiling it into andriod for an easy port of the app.

So at this point, I have no way to test the blutooth function on the meter at all unless the iOS app is released soon.
Can we get an update on the Apple iOS app so the blutooth can be used even on my oldest iPhone 4s with the meter?
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Offline thm_w

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #145 on: December 07, 2017, 11:15:47 am »
I don’t think it matter if you don’t have an andriod phone that supports BLE at all.
Andriod was late to release BLE stacks, so you have to have andriod 4.3 or higher from what I was reading.
And the chipset that supports it also, I think this is 4.0.
Unlike iOS Apple devices that have supported Bluetooth BLE for a much longer time.
So I own 4 andriod devices, 2 phones, 2 tablets. And a common problem with andriod is the cellular or phone manufacturer is responsible for the andriod updates. Well 3 of these 4 I own are Samsung, and I just checked them all despite 2 of them having the proper Bluetooth hardware Samsung never released the version of andriod for BLE to work correctly. They are all running 4.2.? or lower and won’t support the BLE blutooth stack.

A lot of people with older andriod phones might be surprised when they can’t conect to the phone they own or update andriod (without needing to root it) to work with the hardware that supports it built into the phone they already own.  They will probably blame the meter, so be ready for this.

You are talking about Galaxy S4, a four year old phone right? It is possible for you to upgrade the firmware yourself to 5.0.1 (released by samsung) or later but it WILL take effort on your part: https://forum.xda-developers.com/galaxy-s4

Good point though for other people to watch out.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #146 on: December 07, 2017, 11:18:25 am »
As far as open source goes, I am happy that the firmware can be upgraded, I am happy trusting Dave and UEI to get the meter running solidly, and I think it is great the Bluetooth App is fully open source.

If I am thinking about how to conveniently get extra functionality or flexibility from the meter, I probably can do more with an Android App then by modifying the multimeter code.

For example, if I had a calibrated 10V standard reference and 10 experimental references I am testing, I could use an Android App to switch the meter between the 10 tested references, measure the voltage difference between the standard voltage and the current device-under-test to 1uV. If I had to have more than 1 reading/sec, I could later correlate the Bluetooth captured data and the microSD logged data using time stamps. Hopefully logging and Bluetooth can run at the same time.

Is there going to be a document defining the available Bluetooth commands? For example, can we get the DC component, the AC component, multimeter temperature and multimeter time for a reading concurrently?

If the Bluetooth is once per second and the meter is faster - say 10 times per second - is the Bluetooth output the average of those 10 readings?

Really great job!

Richard.
 

Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #147 on: December 07, 2017, 11:27:20 am »


As far as open source goes, I am happy that the firmware can be upgraded, I am happy trusting Dave and UEI to get the meter running solidly, and I think it is great the Bluetooth App is fully open source.

If I am thinking about how to conveniently get extra functionality or flexibility from the meter, I probably can do more with an Android App then by modifying the multimeter code.

For example, if I had a calibrated 10V standard reference and 10 experimental references I am testing, I could use an Android App to switch the meter between the 10 tested references, measure the voltage difference between the standard voltage and the current device-under-test to 1uV. If I had to have more than 1 reading/sec, I could later correlate the Bluetooth captured data and the microSD logged data using time stamps. Hopefully logging and Bluetooth can run at the same time.

Is there going to be a document defining the available Bluetooth commands? For example, can we get the DC component, the AC component, multimeter temperature and multimeter time for a reading concurrently?

If the Bluetooth is once per second and the meter is faster - say 10 times per second - is the Bluetooth output the average of those 10 readings?

Really great job!

Richard.
As mentioned in the Kickstarter, the Bluetooth protocol is fully documented, not sure if it's published on Dave2's GitLab yet.

Regarding the update rate, they should ideally add configurable transmission intervals. Not sure what UEi would have against doing that.

In fact, it would be quite nice to have the ability to configure all multimeter options using a text file on the SD card.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #148 on: December 07, 2017, 11:27:31 am »

I can think of two main reasons for not releasing.
1: commercial/IP reasons.
2: compliance issues with FCC part 15 & RED.
Another possible :
3: not wanting to reveal poorly written code
Quote
If it is the second, and your supplier has no problems with it, then somebody could always 'accidentally misplace' files on a server ;-). This way from a compliance point of view the manufacturer can still maintain that the product does not officiallly support 'alternative' firmwares.
Seems unlikely that firmware on a product like this could  affect EMC performance, and radio stuff is all in the BLE module so that shouldn't be an issue.
Are there any parts  of the IEC test equipment standards that can be affected by software (e.g. showing wrong results/ failing to show overvoltage conditions)?

I think it was discussed a while ago but before FW was finished - it would be useful if the bootloader gave some clear indication that "non-stock" firmware was loaded. Did this get implemented?

Even if not released officially I'd be surprised if it didn't get reversed by someone anyway...
 
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Offline amspire

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #149 on: December 07, 2017, 12:10:22 pm »


...
Is there going to be a document defining the available Bluetooth commands? For example, can we get the DC component, the AC component, multimeter temperature and multimeter time for a reading concurrently?

...
As mentioned in the Kickstarter, the Bluetooth protocol is fully documented, not sure if it's published on Dave2's GitLab yet.

Regarding the update rate, they should ideally add configurable transmission intervals. Not sure what UEi would have against doing that.

In fact, it would be quite nice to have the ability to configure all multimeter options using a text file on the SD card.
Thanks Mike. I could not see the Bluetooth documentation on this github page:

https://github.com/EEVblog/EEVblog-121GW

I guess you need the free version of Xamarin as well.  https://www.xamarin.com

I am guessing we will see a number of interesting 121GW Apps from various people, and the good thing is that none of them have to mess up the factory firmware in the multimeter. You can have 50 different Apps for the multimeter at the same time, but you can only have one firmware installed at a time.

We will just have to see if the Bluetooth implementation in the meter is powerful or minimalistic.


 

Offline KNSSoftware

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #150 on: December 07, 2017, 12:24:28 pm »
I guess you need the free version of Xamarin as well.  https://www.xamarin.com

There is now only one version of Xamarin, and it is free.  As it is now owned by MS, you just pay (or free if eligible) for your desired license of Visual Studio (I believe only 2013 and above is supported), and the xamarin tools are just another extension like the rest of them.


« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 12:27:30 pm by KNSSoftware »
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #151 on: December 07, 2017, 06:51:28 pm »

I can think of two main reasons for not releasing.
1: commercial/IP reasons.
2: compliance issues with FCC part 15 & RED.
Another possible :
3: not wanting to reveal poorly written code
Quote
If it is the second, and your supplier has no problems with it, then somebody could always 'accidentally misplace' files on a server ;-). This way from a compliance point of view the manufacturer can still maintain that the product does not officiallly support 'alternative' firmwares.
Seems unlikely that firmware on a product like this could  affect EMC performance, and radio stuff is all in the BLE module so that shouldn't be an issue.
Are there any parts  of the IEC test equipment standards that can be affected by software (e.g. showing wrong results/ failing to show overvoltage conditions)?

I think it was discussed a while ago but before FW was finished - it would be useful if the bootloader gave some clear indication that "non-stock" firmware was loaded. Did this get implemented?

Even if not released officially I'd be surprised if it didn't get reversed by someone anyway...

Or they want to use the code on a re-branded DMM with the same hardware?

Alexander.
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Offline VinzC

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #152 on: December 07, 2017, 09:25:25 pm »
Hi Dave.

At first when I saw a while ago you were vlogging about "making a new multimeter" I didn't  realize you'd really intend to make one! Hat's off! I'm a backer of your project and I can't say how excited I am to test it... wait, no, take it apart :D.

Anyway thanks a *whole* bunch for this project. I've seen the goal's been reached (over 900%, is that possible?  8)) BTW does the expression "sky-rocket" apply here? It's fantastic, no doubt.

Keep it all up :-+
 

Offline spider

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #153 on: December 08, 2017, 03:57:41 am »
Since I never order from outside of europe usually, I do have to expect VAT and customs charges, right? Some 20% on top of the 290AUD in Germany I guess?

To import electronics from outside the EU you need to pay customs duty and value-added tax on values above 150€. (VAT always applies for values above ca. 23€)
I do not know the exact percentage for this kind of measurement devices but my guess is something like 3.7%.

Number crunching:

121GW incl. shipping ca. 188€*
+ import duties 6.96€
= 194.96€
+ VAT 37.04€
Total 232€

*plus additional handling fee for credit card usage, this is not tax relevant however

Edit: That totals to around AU$ 367 incl. taxes and 2% handling fees

I am not an expert but it looks like there are no additional import duties in Germany/ EU.
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/measures.jsp?Lang=de&Taric=90303200&SimDate=20171207

Edit: Or 2.1%
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/measures.jsp?Lang=de&Taric=90303100&SimDate=20171207

Isn't DHL Express charging additional 18€ for declaration at the customs office?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 07:54:32 am by spider »
 

Offline eamoex

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #154 on: December 08, 2017, 04:10:12 am »
I WILL get one. But I'll wait :popcorn: for Dave to sort out some EU-based resale thing. Too much hassle importing at my own costs.

By the way @Dave, how will we know when the EU resale arrangement is up?
 

Online meeder

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #155 on: December 08, 2017, 07:23:50 am »
There will certainly be import duties to get it inside the EU and then you get VAT.
The thing is that the VAT and duties are calculated on the price of the device including the shipping charges so it will get expensive real fast.
 

Offline vk3zgw

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #156 on: December 08, 2017, 03:17:42 pm »
Great effort Dave, I ordered mine yesterday out of the the second batch due in March.

When in the Hold, does the beep sound when it reads higher value? Handy feature when probing around a circuit looking for voltage.

Geoff
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #157 on: December 08, 2017, 04:20:50 pm »
Dave
On the Amp Hour you mention you wanted to make a last minute hardware change (albeit fairly minor), but was faced with the fact that 2000 boards had already been printed, and a cost that could not be absorbed.  For this reason you were going to hold back, and maybe amend the board in a subsequent board spin.  Are you planning to do this between the first Dec batch, and the April batch, using the delay as a chance to make the change?  On the same note, what happens if/when there is a hardware change, and there are potentially different board revisions, with regards to firmware updates.  Will updates need to be board revision specific?

I've asked that a few times in various threads and I saw other's asking similar questions during the live feed.  For what ever the reason, they have gone unanswered.  Personally, I am not sure why it was brought up in the first place if discussing it was off limits.

I did not see those comments in the live thread.
Not trying to hide anything, I just thought of a feature we could maybe add at the last minute but it was too far gone. No big deal.

Are they planning to change the circuit board after the 2000 are used up regardless of how the initial units fair?   Or are they only going to change it if there are problems found with the hardware that can not be corrected with firmware?   Thanks for any information you can provide.
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online meeder

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #158 on: December 08, 2017, 04:40:28 pm »
Dave already answered that the board isn't going to change. There isn't a problem with the current board, it was a nice to have change but not that important.
 

Offline PeterL

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #159 on: December 08, 2017, 08:58:58 pm »
There will certainly be import duties to get it inside the EU and then you get VAT.
The thing is that the VAT and duties are calculated on the price of the device including the shipping charges so it will get expensive real fast.
In The Netherlands shipping charges should not have additional taxes. See:
https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/prive/douane/goederen_ontvangen_uit_het_buitenland/van_organisaties_en_bedrijven/moet_ik_belastingen_bij_invoer_betalen
Of course some tried to fool customs by item shifting the costs on paper to shipping costs.

Since this device is clearly over 22 euro's you can expect 21%VAT. Their could be additional import duties since the device is over 150 euro, but this is dependent on what category a multimeter falls in. This part could well be nothing as stated by some in this thread.
See: https://www.belastingdienst.nl/wps/wcm/connect/bldcontentnl/belastingdienst/prive/douane/goederen_ontvangen_uit_het_buitenland/van_organisaties_en_bedrijven/hoe_bereken_ik_de_belasting_bij_invoer_internetaankopen

But the taxes are first handled by the mailing company. And they will charge you an administration fee for doing this. This fee is usually around 15 euro.

So expect that you have to pay somewhere in the region of ~170 x 21% + 15 = 50.7 Euro, If they are able to find out the true value of this item. If you have to pay more you can always appeal.

Dave really has to find a trick to get rid of the 21%VAT. Everything we buy in Europe has VAT in it. If you are a company, you can get it returned, but that is about it.
Bulk shipping could reduce the administration fee that DHL charges.

No one likes to pay taxes, but it is a part of our daily life, and this time it get's a little bit more visible.

Anyway congrats Dave with this nice meter, looks like a success already. And good choice to run a short campaign, it's nice not having to wait for it to end first.
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #160 on: December 08, 2017, 09:21:31 pm »
Isn't DHL Express charging additional 18€ for declaration at the customs office?
Normal DHL delivery this week, they offered a 28,5€ fee for doing customs handling for me as receiver, but they charge you at the door for whatever customs wanted also.

But i got another question regarding the 121GW:
Is there a (configurable) auto-off/standby and if so, is the power drain on the batteries significantly lower then or will it beep before going into standby?

edit: found answer in manual p. 52 after finding the manual... it is there and configurable.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 09:18:19 pm by SparkyFX »
 

Offline maukka

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #161 on: December 08, 2017, 10:01:13 pm »
Normal DHL delivery this week, they offered a 28,5€ fee for doing customs handling for me as receiver

That was the case in Finland too, they even wanted similar amount if you did the customs processing yourself. After recently gotten so much feedback from the customers and officials they now allow the recipient to handle the importing themself with no fees (except VAT and possible duties). You just need to request all the needed information from DHL.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #162 on: December 08, 2017, 10:53:30 pm »
 Note that some countries exempt test equipment from certain fees and taxes.
 

Offline zetsubou

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #163 on: December 08, 2017, 10:55:20 pm »
Small request.. can we have a better photo of the case? I can't tell if the side pocket is more secure than the last one.  :-[
 

Offline chefkoch84

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #164 on: December 09, 2017, 12:28:54 am »
Most probably the closed-source firmware is not to hide IP or dirty code...

Its just an attempt of Dave to prevent people to make this thing to an IoT device.

... but look at all this:
https://github.com/shmuelzon/ble2mqtt
Perhaps it's even possible with an esp32.

I cannot wait to map the multimeters bargraph to the garage door opener ... (of my neighbor). This makes up a nice big high-contrast display. :-DD
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #165 on: December 09, 2017, 12:58:40 am »
Are they planning to change the circuit board after the 2000 are used up regardless of how the initial units fair?

No.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #166 on: December 09, 2017, 12:59:37 am »
By the way @Dave, how will we know when the EU resale arrangement is up?

When it goes on sale there, after the Kickstarter.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #167 on: December 09, 2017, 01:08:00 am »
Are they planning to change the circuit board after the 2000 are used up regardless of how the initial units fair?

No.

Thanks.
How electrically robust is your meter?? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Kire Pûdsje

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #168 on: December 09, 2017, 05:45:21 am »
Quote
Seems unlikely that firmware on a product like this could  affect EMC performance, and radio stuff is all in the BLE module so that shouldn't be an issue.
The BLE module can be set in a non-compliant state, although a bit tricky it can be done from the Cortex M3, on the other hand, the BLE module itself can also be reprogrammed.

In the US and Canada, the FCC/IC do not like BLE module modifications and its firmware should be excluded from hacking. (For it to be sold, what the end user does is a completely different story)

Europe is much more relaxed than the US. As long as the firmware revisions of the Cortex M3 and the BLE module firmware are mentioned on the DoC, the meter can be legally sold as fully hackable (even if this means it might operate non-compliant).
I can imagine UEI/David waits with releasing the DoC, as the firmware revision will probably change until the last moment, also the RED harmonized standard are in constant flux. They unfortunately have yet changed again two weeks ago.
 

Offline genghisnico13

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #169 on: December 09, 2017, 07:17:15 am »
Dave, could you create a specific section somewhere in the forum for the meter? this thread is enough for now, but when people start getting and playing with them this will become a mess. I can already see the thread "Dremeling the back cover for easy SD card access" ;).

Sorry if this was mentioned somewhere, does the meter come with batteries (2nd batch Kickstarter)? if so, are they installed? one of my freight forwarders doesn't allow loose batteries of any type.

Thanks.

edit: forum terminology
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 07:31:33 am by genghisnico13 »
 

Offline npelov

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #170 on: December 09, 2017, 12:26:08 pm »
Hi Dave,

I have few questions:
1. How long does the backlight stay on? I have troubles with my BM829 - It goes off before I can measure anything. If I had a choice I would like it to be changeable in setup to something like 2, 5, 10 or 30 minutes. Yes, 30 - that's the one I'll leave it on.
2. You mentioned cut off voltage. What's the maximum operating voltage (not the absolute maximum, but safe operation)? You say that battery life is good, but I'll put rechargeables anyway - bluetooth, backlight, logging ... etc. I just wonder if I can put Li-Ion or LiFePo4 (two of them with connector batteries).I'll probably use NiMH, but I'm just curious.

Edit: I forgot one: You mention shipping to EU using EU company. Do you have any news on it? Will I be able to get mine shipped from EU if I back you on kickstarter or you'll have separate sale for the EU (so I don't pay tax)?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 12:52:59 pm by npelov »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #171 on: December 09, 2017, 12:39:09 pm »
Dave, could you create a specific section somewhere in the forum for the meter?
Is it time for an "EEVBLOG Products" forum section ?
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Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #172 on: December 09, 2017, 12:59:57 pm »
Edit: I forgot one: You mention shipping to EU using EU company. Do you have any news on it? Will I be able to get mine shipped from EU if I back you on kickstarter or you'll have separate sale for the EU (so I don't pay tax)?

You will have to pay taxes in any case. It does not matter if it is imported through someone else.
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Online HKJ

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #173 on: December 09, 2017, 06:33:33 pm »
You will have to pay taxes in any case. It does not matter if it is imported through someone else.

But it can be lower if the import is into a EU country with a low sale tax. This would also mean only one tax processing fee, not one for each individual order.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #174 on: December 09, 2017, 07:34:45 pm »
But it can be lower if the import is into a EU country with a low sale tax. This would also mean only one tax processing fee, not one for each individual order.

While this may be true, it absolutely depends on the amount of exports the chosen re-seller makes in a year. There is a threshold under which the reseller is allowed to charge the local VAT on intra EU sales but this varies from country to country. See here for more details: >>Click me<<
Also, it is only true for business to customer sales. Then, the importer is also liable for handling guarantee issues and so on and so forth.
The only way I think it might work would be a private person from Luxembourg importing the meters and doing private sales to the community without telling anyone officially because by law it would no longer be a private sale with the amount of meters that person would be selling all over Europe.
The whole VAT issue is also just relevant for private persons.
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Offline npelov

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #175 on: December 09, 2017, 09:02:44 pm »
Well, europe always gets all the electronics at a higher price. Even if it's made in EU it's either Germany or England or other country that has higher prices, so it is even more expensive than imports. Whatever... I just accept it and move on.
The more interesting is the backlight timer and battery voltage. Will 121GW withstand  2x3.6V or even 2x4.2V batteries.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #176 on: December 09, 2017, 09:25:58 pm »
Also, it is only true for business to customer sales. Then, the importer is also liable for handling guarantee issues and so on and so forth.
The only way I think it might work would be a private person from Luxembourg importing the meters and doing private sales to the community without telling anyone officially because by law it would no longer be a private sale with the amount of meters that person would be selling all over Europe.
The whole VAT issue is also just relevant for private persons.

Given that it's a Kickstarter, technically the meters are "gifts"  ;D
 

Online HKJ

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #177 on: December 09, 2017, 09:31:49 pm »
Given that it's a Kickstarter, technically the meters are "gifts"  ;D

If you are registered as a business it cannot be a gift (Definition by our customs office) .
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #178 on: December 09, 2017, 10:28:45 pm »
Given that it's a Kickstarter, technically the meters are "gifts"  ;D

No, the gift status can only be applied to items of estimated value below ~30€ and the shipment can only be a single item.
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Offline Candid

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #179 on: December 09, 2017, 10:44:07 pm »
Will I get a tracking number and information when my order is on it's way? Dave you said the first 40 will be sent on 5th Dec when I remember correct. Last info I got was from 25th Nov with confirmation of order #11039 but up to now no shipping confirmation. Sorry, but I am so curious.  :palm:
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #180 on: December 10, 2017, 03:11:33 am »
Also, it is only true for business to customer sales. Then, the importer is also liable for handling guarantee issues and so on and so forth.
The only way I think it might work would be a private person from Luxembourg importing the meters and doing private sales to the community without telling anyone officially because by law it would no longer be a private sale with the amount of meters that person would be selling all over Europe.
The whole VAT issue is also just relevant for private persons.

Given that it's a Kickstarter, technically the meters are "gifts"  ;D
"Gift" only raises the duty-free threshold from (in the UK) about £18 to £36  , so not relevant to this item  other than maybe the plausibility of paying £20 to ship something worth less than the postage)
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Offline Candid

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #181 on: December 12, 2017, 05:36:42 am »
The customs fee is not a big deal I think. It's normal that europeans (and others too) have to pay a VAT. In Germany it is 19% plus about 12,50 EUR that DHL takes for pre-paying the VAT. You can make a contract with DHL in Germany to allow them to charge the VAT directly from your bank account. Then you don't have to pay the extra DHL fee of about 12,50 EUR but sometimes DHL does not accept privat people for this contract.

Marking a package as gift is not a good idea for german customers because customs will open the parcel and when they "think" it is not a gift you will be charged not only the 19%. Being honest with the markings of a parcel is the best for German customers.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 07:40:30 am by Candid »
 

Offline nidlaX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #182 on: December 12, 2017, 11:48:19 pm »
FWIW, my prediction is Dave sells 1842 DMMs in the Kickstarter campaign.
He already sold 1268 in 22 hours. IMO it will be at least 5k.

Nope, not a chance. I'll be surprised if it even gets to 2k.
I have blown my wad on marketing, unless I want to keep hammering it, but that will only pick up the stragglers.
I place my bet it will get 2k. Although I have more multimetrs than I need, if it does not reach 2k in 5 days (I think it will happen much faster), I'll buy one myself.
Well wraper, looks like you need to invent a new excuse to buy yourself one. :-DD
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #183 on: December 13, 2017, 12:02:20 am »
i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #184 on: December 13, 2017, 12:38:19 am »
i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?

 The tax is on the value that is added at each stage of the manufacturing/distribution process. For an imported item, the added value is 100% of the value. It's like an incremental sales tax.

If I sell a widget, and my BOM costs £10 and I sell for £20.
I pay 20% VAT on £10 to the parts supplier=£2,  and charge the customer 20% of the sales price = £4. I send the difference of £2 to HMRC, as the VAT on the value I have added.


« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 02:08:46 am by mikeselectricstuff »
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Offline PeterL

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #185 on: December 13, 2017, 01:32:23 am »
i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?
It's just another word for sales tax. And in Europe it is raised on everything you buy as a consumer. It doesn't matter were it comes from.* Only the tariff differs from country to country, and is higher for luxury goods.

*Only exception is when we buy something outside the EU with a low value. In that case the government (at least in NL) doesn't bother and just let it pass.
 

Offline eeviking

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #186 on: December 13, 2017, 05:53:38 am »
The customs fee is not a big deal I think. It's normal that europeans (and others too) have to pay a VAT. In Germany it is 19% plus about 12,50 EUR that DHL takes for pre-paying the VAT. You can make a contract with DHL in Germany to allow them to charge the VAT directly from your bank account. Then you don't have to pay the extra DHL fee of about 12,50 EUR but sometimes DHL does not accept privat people for this contract.

Marking a package as gift is not a good idea for german customers because customs will open the parcel and when they "think" it is not a gift you will be charged not only the 19%. Being honest with the markings of a parcel is the best for German customers.

Well. In Denmark the VAT is 25% (import below 11 EUR is exempt) and the fee for Postnord to handle the import is 21.50 EUR  :palm:
Only way for a private person to avoid the fee is to use a big door to door courier like UPS/FEDEX who have their own fee's, or prepay like with ebay's global shipping program.
Even DHL sometimes hands over to Postnord for local delivery.

I have seen Keysight ship to Denmark but only charge 21% VAT (pre paid) be course they import to EU via NL. Don't know if they are bending the rules.
 

Online meeder

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #187 on: December 13, 2017, 06:23:17 am »


i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?
It's just another word for sales tax. And in Europe it is raised on everything you buy as a consumer. It doesn't matter were it comes from.* Only the tariff differs from country to country, and is higher for luxury goods.

*Only exception is when we buy something outside the EU with a low value. In that case the government (at least in NL) doesn't bother and just let it pass.

Officially it is not taxed if it is below €21 including shipping but in practice I never paid tax for anything below €100.
 

Offline VinzC

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #188 on: December 13, 2017, 06:36:06 am »
i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?
Like states needed to justify collecting taxes... :-DD In my country, VAT is paid by us, customers, regardless of where a product comes from and how many (including zero) times it has been transformed. It doesn't have to make sense, it's mandatory. And if you try to avoid it, you risk being fined for fraud.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #189 on: December 13, 2017, 07:56:03 am »
i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?
I don't think that's what VAT is, but I also don't think you think that's what VAT is.

It's never about the value added by the EU or nation state. It's about the value added by the person handling the materials or goods. You pay tax over the bit you've increased in value. If you buy 10 monetary units worth of wood and turn it into an item worth 30 monetary units, you pay VAT over 20 monetary units. The other bits are paid by their respective value adders. Obviously, this VAT is transferred by the manufacturers to the customer. The customer sees a singular compounded figure, but it's typically a stack of smaller amounts.

Whether it's reasonable to tax added value is another story, but it's a common general tax to pay for a nation's general services. You can't always tax everything 1 to 1.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 07:59:16 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline eeviking

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #190 on: December 13, 2017, 07:58:08 am »


i never understood the concept of VAT. Value Added Tax.

- it is produced outside EU
- it is sold by a non EU company
- it is shipped from outside EU.

please, enlighten me : what value is added by the EU ? if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?
It's just another word for sales tax. And in Europe it is raised on everything you buy as a consumer. It doesn't matter were it comes from.* Only the tariff differs from country to country, and is higher for luxury goods.

*Only exception is when we buy something outside the EU with a low value. In that case the government (at least in NL) doesn't bother and just let it pass.

Officially it is not taxed if it is below €21 including shipping but in practice I never paid tax for anything below €100.

Here we should pay tax for items above 11€ but a lot of small items slip through the customs unnoticed.
I have been charged 25€ (tax and fee) on 20$ item's for china |O
Then it is cheaper to refuse acceptance and reorder the item from another seller who only declare 10$  >:D
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #191 on: December 13, 2017, 08:01:17 am »
Here we should pay tax for items above 11€ but a lot of small items slip through the customs unnoticed.
I have been charged 25€ (tax and fee) on 20$ item's for china |O
Then it is cheaper to refuse acceptance and reorder the item from another seller who only declare 10$  >:D
Really, you'd do that? I'm all for bending the system to your favour, but that sounds like causing a lot of trouble for various people who had nothing to do with your decision to buy something for what's effectively chump change.
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #192 on: December 13, 2017, 09:01:06 am »
if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?
Anything mike said and it might also serve the purpose of a simple import tax. As everyone who produces locally has to pay it, the local market would have a disadvantage. Rest of the formalities is described here.

The (imho) unfair part is: if you carry a newly bought item with you to Germany while crossing the border, there is a 300 Euro (430 Euro for Flight- and Sea-Travel) duty free limit for goods except alcohol, tobacco, fuel and such. So having it sent by mail to you counts as imported, bringing it by travel is free of duties.

 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #193 on: December 13, 2017, 09:51:50 am »
Anything mike said and it might also serve the purpose of a simple import tax. As everyone who produces locally has to pay it, the local market would have a disadvantage. Rest of the formalities is described here.

The (imho) unfair part is: if you carry a newly bought item with you to Germany while crossing the border, there is a 300 Euro (430 Euro for Flight- and Sea-Travel) duty free limit for goods except alcohol, tobacco, fuel and such. So having it sent by mail to you counts as imported, bringing it by travel is free of duties.
Import tax is a separate thing, though it doesn't apply to many categories. EU residents should consider themselves lucky for intra EU taxing being a thing of the past.
 

Offline KNSSoftware

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #194 on: December 13, 2017, 10:24:59 am »
if the answer is none : how can it be taxed ?
Anything mike said and it might also serve the purpose of a simple import tax. As everyone who produces locally has to pay it, the local market would have a disadvantage. Rest of the formalities is described here.

The (imho) unfair part is: if you carry a newly bought item with you to Germany while crossing the border, there is a 300 Euro (430 Euro for Flight- and Sea-Travel) duty free limit for goods except alcohol, tobacco, fuel and such. So having it sent by mail to you counts as imported, bringing it by travel is free of duties.

But it is a 'limit"/allowance, and it will only applicable to you outside the EU, as you can't hide from it here, they are all much the same.  They allow this basic policing, as it would not make economical sense for you to bypass local tax, by buying relatively expensive international crossings.  Not to mention, they don't want the headach of having to force you to declare everything little thing you may have picked up on your travel, vs proving what you had taken with you outbound that had your local tax already paid.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #195 on: December 13, 2017, 11:29:37 am »
Here we should pay tax for items above 11€ but a lot of small items slip through the customs unnoticed.
I have been charged 25€ (tax and fee) on 20$ item's for china |O

That's interesting.
One of my options is to use a Chinese re-shipper who uses DHL Express.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #196 on: December 13, 2017, 11:36:23 am »
The customs fee is not a big deal I think. It's normal that europeans (and others too) have to pay a VAT. In Germany it is 19% plus about 12,50 EUR that DHL takes for pre-paying the VAT. You can make a contract with DHL in Germany to allow them to charge the VAT directly from your bank account. Then you don't have to pay the extra DHL fee of about 12,50 EUR but sometimes DHL does not accept privat people for this contract.

A big German test gear seller has offer to the re-shipping for me inside the EU.
They offer good internal postage rates, but there is no way to avoid the 19% German VAT, regardless of whether the meter is ultimately shipped within Germany outside of it.
I obviously cannot absorb a 19% VAT fee, so this would have to be an additional fee I charge backers in the EU
The advantage is that there should be zero customs hassles to the backer because it would be shipped internal in the EU via DHL.

I am contemplating giving people the option in the Kickstarter survey whether they want to pay the extra 19% VAT and get it quickly no hassles, or pay nothing extra up-front and "take their chances" via direct shipment into the EU. Opinions on this please...
 
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Online IanB

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #197 on: December 13, 2017, 12:13:43 pm »
19% VAT and no additional import fees would be a bargain for EU residents where the local VAT rate is higher, in some countries 25% or more.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #198 on: December 13, 2017, 02:36:35 pm »
19% VAT and no additional import fees would be a bargain for EU residents where the local VAT rate is higher, in some countries 25% or more.
Hungary takes the cake with 27%. Rates that high seem to be rare though. Luxembourg has the most advantageous rate at 17%, though in some countries reduced rates might apply.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax
 

Offline Moragor

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #199 on: December 13, 2017, 03:45:26 pm »
@EEVblog: I'm from Switzerland and I wanted to make sure that the shipments from Swiss backers get separated from pre-VATed EU ones since we're not members of the European union and have to pay fees for German imports.
 

Offline ali_asadzadeh

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #200 on: December 13, 2017, 05:54:27 pm »
Dave I can not back up your project as I'm in Iran, but I wish I could do that. Big thumbs up :-+ :-+ :-+
Also you mentioned in kickstarter that the meter would be open in schematics, where can we find it?
You can order parts from www.ASiDesigner.com
we are a wire-based company
 

Online Towger

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #201 on: December 13, 2017, 08:22:59 pm »
Re VAT / German Importer.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/eevblog/eevblog-121gw-multimeter/posts/2070011

As I expected, this is very messy and not really worth the hassle.

Dave, the simple solution is just give a option of shipping method:

Simple:
DHL Express Courier: Which I believe is DHL Courier all the way. DHL handling everything and the 'Companies' who supported the Kickstarter and claim the VAT portion back
DHL eCommerce: Which I believe is final delivery by local post.  Supporters know how their local post offices handle taxes and can choose if advantageous to DHL delivery.

Messy:
3rd Party: If going ahead this needs to be a clean single option.  They will not want to be issuing zero rated invoices to companies etc, and you collecting the VAT is on dodgy legal grounds.
DHL China: If this is DHL all the way from China it is no different to option 1 above, except they do not take the invoice on face value and will inspect the parcel, and may revise upwards.  I have had this happen several times now.  In one case I kicked up a fuss and ended up getting all the VAT back, even though they said they were refunding just the over charge.

In all cases, a proper clearly itemised (Item and P&P shown separately) invoice should be available on the outside of the package.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 08:25:27 pm by Towger »
 

Offline crispus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #202 on: December 13, 2017, 08:28:21 pm »
How can one buy two or more meters?
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Online Dr. Frank

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #203 on: December 13, 2017, 10:01:12 pm »


I am contemplating giving people the option in the Kickstarter survey whether they want to pay the extra 19% VAT and get it quickly no hassles, or pay nothing extra up-front and "take their chances" via direct shipment into the EU. Opinions on this please...

Dave, will my KS pledge be updated automatically (+19% for VAT in EU) by the survey you've sent, or will I have to do that manually?

Frank
 

Online IanJ

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #204 on: December 13, 2017, 10:44:27 pm »
A big German test gear seller has offer to the re-shipping for me inside the EU.
They offer good internal postage rates, but there is no way to avoid the 19% German VAT, regardless of whether the meter is ultimately shipped within Germany outside of it.

There is......but not for the general public though.
If I (am in UK) buy a gadget from VAT registered company in Germany and use my own UK VAT registered company to pay for it then the VAT should be zero rated, i.e. no VAT.
I do this when selling my PDVS2 voltage sources within the EU.
All the different options of VAT, no VAT etc etc.........it's a pain to set up an online shop that can handle it all seamlessly!

https://www.nibusinessinfo.co.uk/content/vat-within-eu-and-other-trade-agreement-countries

Ian.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 10:46:07 pm by IanJ »
Ian Johnston
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Manufacturer of the PDVS2
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #205 on: December 13, 2017, 11:14:59 pm »
Where do we fill in the shipping address?

Alexander.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #206 on: December 13, 2017, 11:30:53 pm »
[There is......but not for the general public though.
If I (am in UK) buy a gadget from VAT registered company in Germany and use my own UK VAT registered company to pay for it then the VAT should be zero rated, i.e. no VAT.
I do this when selling my PDVS2 voltage sources within the EU.
All the different options of VAT, no VAT etc etc.........it's a pain to set up an online shop that can handle it all seamlessly!

https://www.nibusinessinfo.co.uk/content/vat-within-eu-and-other-trade-agreement-countries

Ian.
Maybe you're talking about other regulations, but typically you always charge VAT. In the case of business to business, you charge it, but the other can reclaim that VAT. Sooner or later it all ends up at a consumer and he will have to pay the VAT without reclaiming it. There are certain industries that are exempt from VAT, but those are fairly specific.

Unless you're part of the exceptions, not charging the end consumer VAT isn't really possible. Obviously, as everyone would love to sell a product that's roughly a fifth cheaper without any effort!
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #207 on: December 14, 2017, 12:18:23 am »
[There is......but not for the general public though.
If I (am in UK) buy a gadget from VAT registered company in Germany and use my own UK VAT registered company to pay for it then the VAT should be zero rated, i.e. no VAT.
I do this when selling my PDVS2 voltage sources within the EU.
All the different options of VAT, no VAT etc etc.........it's a pain to set up an online shop that can handle it all seamlessly!

https://www.nibusinessinfo.co.uk/content/vat-within-eu-and-other-trade-agreement-countries

Ian.
Maybe you're talking about other regulations, but typically you always charge VAT. In the case of business to business, you charge it, but the other can reclaim that VAT.
For business-to-business transactions between EU countries, VAT is not charged - I think they realised the paperwork wasn't worth it.
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Online Towger

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #208 on: December 14, 2017, 01:06:32 am »
You are all correct, but there is another consideration.

B2C = Charge VAT
B2B - No VAT Number supplied = Charge VAT and Business Purchaser can reclaim VAT.
B2B - VAT Number Supplied = Don't Change VAT

Then...
Business does a large amount of selling into another EU country.
Business exceeds VAT Threshold for this Country. e.g. €80,000 per year.
Business must register for VAT in 3rd party country and collect VAT at local rates for local VAT Man.

This is why the mega online stores like Amazon UK, Thomann and Komplett charge your local VAT on checkout

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/vat-customs/cross-border/index_en.htm
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 01:08:13 am by Towger »
 

Offline npelov

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #209 on: December 14, 2017, 01:25:21 am »
wtf monkey?!? I tried to vote but they took long time to load the page. Not sure if my vote was accepted. There is DoS or something going on...

Paying VAT upfront is way better even you pay 1-2% more. This way you avoid delay in customs and possible payment delays/mistakes. When I ordered my Hakko I wrote the "reason code" in my payment and they didn't want to release it. I had following options:
1. go there (30 km - the other side of the city - about 3 hours) and submit a request for the payment details to be fixed
2. pay double to DHL to do that for me
3. pay the VAT again

Well I paid the VAT again. And the process took more than a week. DHL + customs = evil.

P.S. Message from surveymonkey.com: "It looks like we've slipped." (And they slipped too many times)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 01:29:23 am by npelov »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #210 on: December 14, 2017, 01:37:55 am »
Officially it is not taxed if it is below €21 including shipping
This is a good point to remember, too. VAT is charged for shipping. If you pay for faster shipping you also pay more tax when it arrives.
 

Offline npelov

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #211 on: December 14, 2017, 01:40:38 am »
Well the campaign is ending. I wonder if it'll be possible to pay the vat after it's done - like paypal or something. I really don't want to mess with the DHL+ customs combo again. I've dealt fine with each one of them alone, but when you combine them it gets ugly.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #212 on: December 14, 2017, 01:44:31 am »
I am contemplating giving people the option in the Kickstarter survey whether they want to pay the extra 19% VAT and get it quickly no hassles, or pay nothing extra up-front and "take their chances" via direct shipment into the EU. Opinions on this please...

I'd pay it up front because:
a) If it gets caught in the customs system you can face big delays, maybe a week extra if you're unlucky.
b) Couriers will charge you a ridiculous "handling fee" for doing the customs 'paperwork' for you (can be as much as the tax even though these days they probably just scan a barcode and type in a price).
c) I wouldn't have to pay VAT on the shipping costs.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 01:46:24 am by Fungus »
 
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Offline firewalker

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #213 on: December 14, 2017, 02:05:11 am »
I am contemplating giving people the option in the Kickstarter survey whether they want to pay the extra 19% VAT and get it quickly no hassles, or pay nothing extra up-front and "take their chances" via direct shipment into the EU. Opinions on this please...

I'd pay it up front because:
a) If it gets caught in the customs system you can face big delays, maybe a week extra if you're unlucky.
b) Couriers will charge you a ridiculous "handling fee" for doing the customs 'paperwork' for you (can be as much as the tax even though these days they probably just scan a barcode and type in a price).
c) I wouldn't have to pay VAT on the shipping costs.

In Greece if your packet goes through custom check, it could be easily a month before the packet is actually checked taxed and released.

A courier service can speed up things but the fees are ridiculous high.

You could run the process by your self but could easily loose a day or two to the custom office.

Alexander.
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Offline SparkyFX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #214 on: December 14, 2017, 02:17:54 am »
Where do we fill in the shipping address?

Alexander.
There has been something about it in an older video .

How can one buy two or more meters?
Kickstarter is not a sales platform in itself, they actually do not sell goods, therefore it is not like a shop with all the tax and shipment options. All you got from their side is backing projects.

In a former kickstarter campaign it was mentioned that you could pledge the double amount of money and the project management needs to sort out what you actually pledged for and hopefully sends the right amount. Which might be a pita when certain shipping weights are exceeded. OTOH it was mentioned that is it up for sales in the eevblog shop after the kickstarter is over.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 02:24:42 am by SparkyFX »
 
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Offline crispus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #215 on: December 14, 2017, 02:45:08 am »
Kickstarter is not a sales platform in itself, they actually do not sell goods, therefore it is not like a shop with all the tax and shipment options.
I know this, also Dave mentioned it - can't remember where (video, the Ah) that he might look on the amount to figure out how many, but is not a certitude, just a possibility. I just wanted a confirmation :D
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Offline stach

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #216 on: December 14, 2017, 05:02:13 am »
A bit confused now  :-// - so I'm in EU, I will pay in 5 hours 265 AU for the meter and 30 AU in shipment, but now there is a German reseller, re shipper whatever involved, which I will be charged 19% extra VAT.

So 30 AU are now for what ? I guess meters wont be shipped separately to German company and then to a me ? Or will they be ?

As I understand a process all meters for kickstarter backers are send first to Dave, for a hologram sticker, pouch etc… then what will happen ? Will each one be shipped separately to Germany, where it will be reshipped to me ?

And now when will I be charged this extra 19% VAT ? On delivery ?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 05:12:15 am by stach »
 

Offline ballanux

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #217 on: December 14, 2017, 05:33:51 am »
I think 19% is a good deal, if there is the opportunity to do it this way, I'm definitely in.

From past experiences, more than I would like, the chances that a high value package goes unnoticed through DHL or UPS is zero. I suppose these companies declare in advance the value of the packages to customs. If you go through China Post, USPS or something cheaper you might get lucky.

When they stop the package in customs there is a charge due to VAT (21% in Spain so right there I'm already saving a bit) but also there is a customs fee. But if the customs documentation is handled directly by DHL they charge you their own fee in top of that, last time I think it was a bit more than 20€.

By the way, I don't know if it has already been said, but the amount of the VAT is calculated including shipping cost... not only the price of the product
 

Offline npelov

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #218 on: December 14, 2017, 08:30:55 am »
And now when will I be charged this extra 19% VAT ? On delivery ?

If you have received something more expensive than 20 EUR from foreign country (China doesn't count - they lie about the price) you would know that you have to pay VAT no matter what. However paying VAT to customs after the package enters the country is slow and painful process. That's why Dave wants to use someone from the EU to re-ship  the multimeters. This way you pay the VAT to Dave, he pays to the German company and they pay to their government. That's the only thing - the VAT goes to germany instead of your country. But there are no customs delays and probably few trips to the bank, customs and other annoying activities.
 

Offline Candid

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #219 on: December 14, 2017, 08:37:48 am »
A big German test gear seller has offer to the re-shipping for me inside the EU.
They offer good internal postage rates, but there is no way to avoid the 19% German VAT, regardless of whether the meter is ultimately shipped within Germany outside of it.
[...]
The advantage is that there should be zero customs hassles to the backer because it would be shipped internal in the EU via DHL.

I am contemplating giving people the option in the Kickstarter survey whether they want to pay the extra 19% VAT and get it quickly no hassles, or pay nothing extra up-front and "take their chances" via direct shipment into the EU. Opinions on this please...
I can only speak für germany but I think all other countries will be less complicated ;-). Sending goods from outside germany to germany you need to clearly declare what is sent. With real product and postage costs. Marking as gift will most likely lead to make the german customs define the value of a product by their suggestion what in the end most time is a very expensive deal for the recipient. E.g. the customs says ok the EEVblog 121GW is similar to a Fluke xyz, so we calculate with a product price of 500 EUR because the declaration on the parcel was not ok ;-).

Less than 26,- EUR total costs (product INCLUDING postage). No VAT no other fees to pay.

Less than 150,- EUR (232,- AUD) total costs (product INCLUDING postage), you ONLY have to pay german VAT of 19% (of the product price without postage costs) and a DHL fee.

Above 150 EUR total costs you may have to pay an extra fee but for DMMs this is 0% I think (keyword for this is Taric Code http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/dds2/taric/measures.jsp?Lang=de&Taric=90303200&SimDate=20171207).

This is how it worked for me when I ordered the EEVblog BM235:
EEVblog BM235: 135,- AUD + 20,- AUD shipping = 155,- AUD
155,- AUD = 100,27 EUR, less than 150 EUR -> only 19% VAT, no other customs fee

135 AUD (only product) = 87,33 EUR
19% of 87,33 EUR = 16,59 EUR VAT

In total I was charged 155,- AUD (for/from Dave) + 16,59 EUR VAT + 12,50 EUR DHL fee.

The DHL fee is a fee you have to pay to DHL because they pre-pay the VAT for you. Haha. You can make a contract with DHL to allow then to directly charge the VAT from your bank account, then you won't have to pay this 12,50 EUR DHL fee. Going the way directly from Dave through the customs to us may take a week or max 2 extra weeks.

Getting the meter through a reseller in germany may make things easier and faster. But a reseller wants to get payed for his work. My experience with resellers most time is that in the end you pay more. 19% VAT and a much higher product price.

There may be another way. PostNL (netherlands) has a special service for B2C transfer to any EU country from outside the EU:
http://www.postnl.com/parcels/international-parcel-delivery/parcels-eu/

You may contact postNL for exact information. As far as I understand it's not 100% ok what postNL is doing (who cares?). Because inside the EU there is no extra fee for the customer and so this could be a way to get around the VAT for all european citizens and postNL makes bulk import to the EU. But there is no exact information on their website if the recipient really does not pay VAT, you may check this with them.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 08:41:47 am by Candid »
 
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Offline stach

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #220 on: December 14, 2017, 08:53:35 am »
And now when will I be charged this extra 19% VAT ? On delivery ?

If you have received something more expensive than 20 EUR from foreign country (China doesn't count - they lie about the price) you would know that you have to pay VAT no matter what. However paying VAT to customs after the package enters the country is slow and painful process. That's why Dave wants to use someone from the EU to re-ship  the multimeters. This way you pay the VAT to Dave, he pays to the German company and they pay to their government. That's the only thing - the VAT goes to germany instead of your country. But there are no customs delays and probably few trips to the bank, customs and other annoying activities.

Thank you npelov that now makes a lot more sense !
 

Offline BBBbbb

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #221 on: December 14, 2017, 09:24:15 am »
What's stopping me form ordering is mostly DHL
Their clearance service fee is around 40eur. Although customs clearance for private customers (B2P) goes simpler than for companies DHL charges it the same. Others charge 3-5eur for these fees, but around the same amount as DHL for a full customs clearance procedure (B2B).

So a 200EUR meter would end up: +20% VAT+10% Customs+40eur DHL = 300eur
Seems better to wait for a reseller within Europe, even though meter will  be more expensive later.

A plus is that U(S)PS/FedEx have surprised me a few times with no customs procedure.
 

Offline jerolee

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #222 on: December 14, 2017, 01:13:34 pm »
I prefer the re-seller in Germany.  The tax, fees and problems i encounter in Spain are ridiculous.
Hassle free from Germany!

Thanks.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #223 on: December 14, 2017, 05:05:49 pm »
DAVE!

I expect you might already be thinking about it - but I would just like to encourage you to do a quick video as a follow-up to the Kickstarter campaign.

Let us know how it went in your eyes - how many meters have been spoken for - testing status - delivery timelines (we know this is going to be a "best guess"), etc.
 
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Offline NickS

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #224 on: December 14, 2017, 07:43:20 pm »
Dave just a FYI I just completed my Kickstarter survey (backer 50 Whoo!) and the EU VAT Paypal email address is a required field.
I'm an Aussie so based on the question instructions it seems like it should have been left blank.
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #225 on: December 14, 2017, 07:52:51 pm »
I can't see the survey option yet...



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Offline BurtyB

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #226 on: December 14, 2017, 08:18:35 pm »
Dave just a FYI I just completed my Kickstarter survey (backer 50 Whoo!) and the EU VAT Paypal email address is a required field.
I'm an Aussie so based on the question instructions it seems like it should have been left blank.

I had the same problem after selecting "No, please direct ship" I had to put an email address in - hopefully the email will just be ignored.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #227 on: December 14, 2017, 08:37:13 pm »
Dave just a FYI I just completed my Kickstarter survey (backer 50 Whoo!) and the EU VAT Paypal email address is a required field.
I'm an Aussie so based on the question instructions it seems like it should have been left blank.

I had the same problem after selecting "No, please direct ship" I had to put an email address in - hopefully the email will just be ignored.

Yep, I goofed that, backers should have got an email explaining the goof. The field will be ignored for all those who didn't click yes to the previous question.
 

Offline SparkyFX

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #228 on: December 14, 2017, 09:01:50 pm »
My most recent experience with an improper (value too low, otherwise correct) declared parcel via ebay to me as a private person from Ukraine was:
- 172 USD total paid with shipping (charged for several items in the same package)
- got a notice from DHL that my package is at customs
- took the payment overview of paypal to the customs,
- got taxed an expected 19% + EUR 0.50 per day of storage at the customs office. They hold it up to 14 days before sending it back.

Optionally DHL offered to do the customs and pickup for EUR 28.50 + taxes and import.
I´d rather pay the VAT upfront and have it sent directly.
 

Offline Kean

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #229 on: December 14, 2017, 09:05:58 pm »
I reckon 90% of Kickstarter surveys that ask for anything more than a shipping address have similar issues with mandatory fields.
I'm a Superbacker, so I should know  :-DD

I suspect the KS survey creation tool needs a overhaul, just like their comments section.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #230 on: December 14, 2017, 10:05:13 pm »
I suspect the KS survey creation tool needs a overhaul, just like their comments section.

I couldn't believe it was exactly the same as I used it several year ago. So inflexible it's not funny. Being able to only run one survey and not edit it in any way once sent.
It's like it hasn't evolved at all.
Apparently there are a ton of 3rd party plugin programs available to do more, and the logistics houses ask us what "backer tool" we are using. When we say none, it's like "oh, ok".
 
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Offline GabYoung92

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #231 on: December 14, 2017, 10:20:53 pm »
So apparently I have mine already... Hmm hope this won't be an issue...
Good work with the project! From Gold Coast QLD.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #232 on: December 14, 2017, 10:34:43 pm »
So apparently I have mine already... Hmm hope this won't be an issue...


 :-//
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #233 on: December 14, 2017, 10:37:07 pm »
I have 116 backer that have failed credit card processor, that's more than 5%. Was more than 7% before, but it's come down a bit.
Those backers have 7 days to fix before the system drops them as non-payers.
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #234 on: December 14, 2017, 11:28:39 pm »
Any idea why I can't see the survey? Didn;t receive any notice from KS that I had an issue with the payment, and my bank told it was completed OK.

Backer number 1,136

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Offline Kean

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #235 on: December 14, 2017, 11:35:03 pm »
Any idea why I can't see the survey? Didn;t receive any notice from KS that I had an issue with the payment, and my bank told it was completed OK.

Backer number 1,136

Alexander.

What pledge level?  Surveys go out by pledge level, so Dave may have only sent the surveys for December deliveries.
 
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Online Towger

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #236 on: December 15, 2017, 12:36:21 am »
Kickstarter checks what you receive emails by tagging then with unique images.  Every few months they decide my address is no longer valid, as I don't bother to view the images on the spam they send.

If you log into you account you can check if they have done the same to you.
 

Offline Iwanushka

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #237 on: December 15, 2017, 01:40:40 am »
I have 116 backer that have failed credit card processor, that's more than 5%. Was more than 7% before, but it's come down a bit.
Those backers have 7 days to fix before the system drops them as non-payers.

Somehow my CC company declined KS reservation that was pending, but after hitting pay second time it went ok, looks like some security feature kicked in.
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Offline firewalker

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #238 on: December 15, 2017, 01:53:47 am »
Any idea why I can't see the survey? Didn;t receive any notice from KS that I had an issue with the payment, and my bank told it was completed OK.

Backer number 1,136

Alexander.

What pledge level?  Surveys go out by pledge level, so Dave may have only sent the surveys for December deliveries.

OK! Thanks. My pledge is Johnie B. Good.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #239 on: December 15, 2017, 04:50:11 am »
Dave just a FYI I just completed my Kickstarter survey (backer 50 Whoo!) and the EU VAT Paypal email address is a required field.
I'm an Aussie so based on the question instructions it seems like it should have been left blank.

I had the same problem after selecting "No, please direct ship" I had to put an email address in - hopefully the email will just be ignored.

Yep, I goofed that, backers should have got an email explaining the goof. The field will be ignored for all those who didn't click yes to the previous question.

Don't think I received that e-mail. Have e-mails "project update" 1 thru 6 and "Response Needed! Get your reward for backing EEVblog 121GW Multimeter".

So apparently I have mine already... Hmm hope this won't be an issue...
Good work with the project! From Gold Coast QLD.

There's a "Got It!" button in the reward tab that you can press when you receive shipment (I almost pressed it because quick glance I thought it was asking if I understood the reward page at first glance... 'Got It!').  Might be one time trigger....but maybe it can be deselected?   
 

Offline Iwanushka

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #240 on: December 15, 2017, 04:54:13 am »
There's a "Got It!" button in the reward tab that you can press when you receive shipment (I almost pressed it because quick glance I thought it was asking if I understood the reward page at first glance... 'Got It!').  Might be one time trigger....but maybe it can be deselected?   

Did the same thing too, you can deselect it at any time when that form shows up.
When all you've got is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.- Attrition.
 

Online Brumby

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #241 on: December 15, 2017, 10:56:16 am »
So apparently I have mine already... Hmm hope this won't be an issue...
Good work with the project! From Gold Coast QLD.

There's a "Got It!" button in the reward tab that you can press when you receive shipment (I almost pressed it because quick glance I thought it was asking if I understood the reward page at first glance... 'Got It!').  Might be one time trigger....but maybe it can be deselected?   

That's just bad page design - and so incredibly easy to fix ... just change the text so there is no confusion.  Kinda dumb.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #242 on: December 15, 2017, 11:09:24 pm »
Well, who knew that China has a 17% VAT + 11.3% tariff on sending stuff into their fulfillment centers  :palm:
Trap for young players.
It would actually be cheaper to import into Australia and reship from here than reship from China, go figure.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 11:13:38 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline Kean

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #243 on: December 15, 2017, 11:15:45 pm »
Ouch!  I presume that is because you're importing from South Korea into China before shipping out to ROW?
 

Offline David_

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #244 on: December 17, 2017, 05:38:33 am »
I saw this Kickstarter thing and thought I for sure need to back that project, however I manage to forget about it and now as I was about to back it I discover that I am 2 days late... I just wondered about how the future might look as for the availability for acquiring one of these multimeters now as the Kickstarter has ended?
 
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Offline Candid

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #245 on: December 17, 2017, 07:19:14 am »
The first batches seme to be sold but you can be sure that this meter will find it's way in Daves shop http://www.eevblog.com/store/.
 

Offline tpw_rules

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #246 on: December 17, 2017, 11:05:32 am »
Is the EEVblog.bin file available now? Does the meter come with a card or will I have to supply it?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #247 on: December 18, 2017, 01:32:43 am »
Is the EEVblog.bin file available now? Does the meter come with a card or will I have to supply it?
It was previously indicated it comes with a card.
 

Offline Twoflower

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #248 on: December 18, 2017, 01:39:43 am »
@GabYoung92: That 'Got it!' is just a marker you can set and unset. Just click on the tick and your meter just got un-delivered ;-). It is for you to manage your projects.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #249 on: December 18, 2017, 08:01:26 am »
Kickstarter projects should have a graph of $ and number of backers so you can see the progress of interest in the item.
 

Offline peteb2

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #250 on: December 18, 2017, 09:09:36 am »
Just asking if other Backers are having received the Kickstarter 'Survey' email to edit in their shipping address they would like their DMM sent to and are finding the email sent again but with a completely different address???

I have gone directly to the Kickstarter webpage and am finding my OLD address from way back when i supported the Neil Young HiDef Audio Player... the Pono.!

I'm on the Johnny B. Goode scheme so no biggie as delivery is March 2018. Just wondering if any others can't alter things to their desired shipping address under the Kickstarter Survey. 
(apologies if this has already been discussed.... don't have the time to read all the past posts)!
 

Offline PeterL

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #251 on: December 18, 2017, 07:38:27 pm »
Kickstarter projects should have a graph of $ and number of backers so you can see the progress of interest in the item.

like this?:
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/eevblog/eevblog-121gw-multimeter
 
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Offline GabYoung92

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #252 on: December 18, 2017, 11:33:26 pm »
@GabYoung92: That 'Got it!' is just a marker you can set and unset. Just click on the tick and your meter just got un-delivered ;-). It is for you to manage your projects.

Yep I tried to click it but it didn't flip it to unchecked.  Even restarted the browser just in case. 
Just logged into KS then and it is unchecked.  Not sure what happened there... Anyways got the survey a couple of days ago so should be fine. If not I'll have to go for a trip down to Sydney to the head office and lodge a complaint :P
 

Offline Iwanushka

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #253 on: December 21, 2017, 07:46:39 am »
Hi, did any of the EU backers receive PayPal invoices to pay VAT?
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Offline hyvamiesh

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #254 on: December 21, 2017, 01:37:50 pm »
Hi, did any of the EU backers receive PayPal invoices to pay VAT?
Not yet.
I'm guessing that they first have to be imported to the EU.

EDIT:
Dave just released an update about it on kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/eevblog/eevblog-121gw-multimeter/posts/2071785

EDIT Mk.2:
Just received the VAT invoice for 53,20 AUD.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 07:16:08 pm by hyvamiesh »
 
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Offline Iwanushka

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #255 on: December 28, 2017, 12:20:06 pm »

EDIT Mk.2:
Just received the VAT invoice for 53,20 AUD.

Thanks, somehow Paypal didn't bother to send me an email with invoice or even to push notification on my phone that I have unpaid invoices  |O, good that I read your message and checked paypal account  :palm:
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Offline Ranayna

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #256 on: December 28, 2017, 09:54:32 pm »
First of all, congrats on the successfull kickstarter! (I know i'm late  :P)
I wish i could have backed, but at the moment i am lacking a credit card.

Is there already a timeframe when the meter will be available on your EEVBlog Amazon shop on Amazon UK? Will there be enough units in the second production run to make them available there?
I got a surprisingly good deal there for the BM235...
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #257 on: December 28, 2017, 11:36:57 pm »
I wish i could have backed, but at the moment i am lacking a credit card.

That is exactly why I could not do it either :/ (Do not want to start that topic over again though :) )
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Offline BU508A

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #258 on: December 29, 2017, 12:24:57 am »
Is there already a timeframe when the meter will be available on your EEVBlog Amazon shop on Amazon UK? Will there be enough units in the second production run to make them available there?

Probably at March 2018.
From the kickstarter page:
"For EU customers, that VAT invoice will come shortly. Welectron in Germany will be doing the re-shipping for us within the EU, and they will be stocking the meter in the EU after the campaign ends."
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/eevblog/eevblog-121gw-multimeter/posts/2071785

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Offline cezar

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #259 on: January 12, 2018, 10:01:07 am »
Sorry to ask an awkward question. I just received the meter (very nice BTW) in the UK sent by welectron. If the meter was sent from Germany and I have paid VAT for that... shouldn't I get a EU VAT invoice?
There was nothing in the box except the meter.
 

Offline crispus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #260 on: January 12, 2018, 10:13:13 am »
There was nothing in the box except the meter.
Shouldn't have also the leads and the thermocouple?
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Offline cezar

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #261 on: January 12, 2018, 09:55:43 pm »
There was nothing in the box except the meter.
Shouldn't have also the leads and the thermocouple?

Sorry  - yes, All above is included. I meant 'meter' as the package with meter+probes+ thrermocuple+pouch
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #262 on: January 21, 2018, 01:26:32 am »
What's the current shipping status ?
I got a very last-minute Great Scott when someone droppped out ( #709) , and opted for the direct ship, take chances on VAT option, but haven't had a tracking no. yet - should I have ?
 
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Offline Jon.C

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #263 on: January 21, 2018, 07:50:58 am »
What's the current shipping status ?
I got a very last-minute Great Scott when someone droppped out ( #709) , and opted for the direct ship, take chances on VAT option, but haven't had a tracking no. yet - should I have ?
 


Just a shipping update.

As previously reported, all Australian units have shipped, and also all EU meters have now been shipped, so you should at least have tracking numbers for those.

Unfortunately the US meters have been delayed due to import delays with the expediting company. They are currently sitting in a dock in the US somewhere and we are trying to sort out clearance and shipping to the re-shipper in the US. Sorry for the delay, it was not anticipated. Hope to have this resolved ASAP.
The US re-shipper is also doing a few other countries for logistical reason, so if you have not received a tracking number yet then this is most likely the reason.

Please not that all this ONLY applies to the early Great Scott backers. Units for later backers have not been manufactured yet, so please check your backer level before asking why you haven't gotten shipment notification yet.

RegardsDave.
 

Offline Candid

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