Author Topic: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter  (Read 32345 times)

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Online HKJ

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2017, 07:57:39 pm »
@electronic_eel No need to manually note the time as the file creation date already contains that. And storing both date and time for each measurement would be a waste of storage when you can just calculate it from the start time and number of measurements.

That would require that the file date time always survives, in my experience it do not. It would also require that the logging interval is precise and known (It is configurable).
When the meter has a real time clock it is silly not to include that in the log file, it could be date as part of the filename and only time for each entry.
 

Online meeder

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2017, 07:59:57 pm »


Unlike in the U.S. credit cards are not a thing here in Germany. I pay cash or with my banking card (debit card) in the real world and for online purchases it is either debit card, bank transfer as advance payment or Paypal // Amazon payments.

[off topic]
I don't get the negative sentiment to credit cards and debit cards in Germany. It seems  to me that it is the only Western European country that is still fixated on cash. Whenever I stay in Germany I am still puzzled by the fact that there are restaurants and shops that don't offer payment by credit card or even debit cards.
I never have more than €40 in my wallet at home in the Netherlands but in Germany you need at least twice or triple that amount in cash with you.
A lot of parking meters do not allow card payments for example.
[/off topic]

 

Offline electronic_eel

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2017, 08:02:01 pm »
@electronic_eel No need to manually note the time as the file creation date already contains that.
Are you sure the file system code used cares for last modification date vs. creation date? Some filesystems also have reduced accuracy on file dates.

Also a slow clock drift between the configured sample rate and the real clock may introduce additional timing errors.

And storing both date and time for each measurement would be a waste of storage when you can just calculate it from the start time and number of measurements.
I'd rather use a bigger micro sd than missing correct and fine grained timing information. Micro SDs are available in 256 GB now. That should last a lot longer than even the best batteries.

 

Online meeder

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2017, 08:02:27 pm »
@electronic_eel No need to manually note the time as the file creation date already contains that. And storing both date and time for each measurement would be a waste of storage when you can just calculate it from the start time and number of measurements.
Storage space is hardly an issue when it uses an SD card. Even on a 2GB SD card you can store a rediculous amount of data when it is a plain csv file.

Since it has a RTC and the firmware can be upgraded by the user wouldn't it be a case of a firmware update to add timestamps to the measurements?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 08:05:13 pm by meeder »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2017, 08:31:21 pm »
Storage space is hardly an issue when it uses an SD card. Even on a 2GB SD card you can store a rediculous amount of data when it is a plain csv file.
It is if the main way to get the data out is a bluetooth link - you have to open the cover to get the card out.
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Online meeder

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2017, 08:42:51 pm »
But when you are working in the field the Bluetooth function isn't all that useful.
When using it on your workbench it isn't an issue, I assume that recording through the PC software will add timestamps to the measurements?

Can you download data from the SD card over Bluetooth?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2017, 08:45:43 pm »

When using it on your workbench it isn't an issue,
It is if the BT module is on the end of a slow-ish serial port
Quote
Can you download data from the SD card over Bluetooth?
If not, that would be a total fail.

Dave/David - what is the transfer rate for log data over Bluetooth ?
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Offline voltsandjolts

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #107 on: December 06, 2017, 09:27:29 pm »
If not, that would be a total fail.
Or perhaps, being a little less dramatic, a firmware update.
 

Offline electronic_eel

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2017, 09:41:18 pm »
Or perhaps, being a little less dramatic, a firmware update.
Dave made it clear that the firmware of the meter is not Open Source and is not going to be released. Probably some copyright stuff by UEI. I don't know if even Dave has access to the source and can build a firmware himself or if he needs UEI for that. Firmware doesn't develop itself, UEI probably wants payment from Dave for each additional bit.

So unless Dave says some feature is going to be added, I would not count on it.

That is why I was asking my questions before buying.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2017, 09:51:22 pm »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #110 on: December 06, 2017, 09:53:48 pm »

When using it on your workbench it isn't an issue,
It is if the BT module is on the end of a slow-ish serial port
Quote
Can you download data from the SD card over Bluetooth?
If not, that would be a total fail.

No you cannot, and this has been discussed before on the forum somewhere.
It is not a fail. Reading the data from the SD card over Bluetooth is not easy to do nor quick (it's BLE, and there are data rate limits and packet limits), we looked into this and it was very hard to do. It's much quicker and easier to simply remove the SD card.
It often takes longer to dick around with getting Bluetooth connected on your phone than it does the 20 seconds it takes to remove the SD card)

Quote
Dave/David - what is the transfer rate for log data over Bluetooth ?

About once a second as you see in the video.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 09:57:40 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2017, 09:58:43 pm »
Dave made it clear that the firmware of the meter is not Open Source and is not going to be released. Probably some copyright stuff by UEI. I don't know if even Dave has access to the source and can build a firmware himself or if he needs UEI for that.

I have the source code and can compile if needed (have not tried it).
 

Offline KNSSoftware

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2017, 10:10:21 pm »
Dave

On the Amp Hour you mention you wanted to make a last minute hardware change (albeit fairly minor), but was faced with the fact that 2000 boards had already been printed, and a cost that could not be absorbed.  For this reason you were going to hold back, and maybe amend the board in a subsequent board spin.  Are you planning to do this between the first Dec batch, and the April batch, using the delay as a chance to make the change?  On the same note, what happens if/when there is a hardware change, and there are potentially different board revisions, with regards to firmware updates.  Will updates need to be board revision specific?
 

Online meeder

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #113 on: December 06, 2017, 10:46:09 pm »
Dave, is there any chance of a future update which includes timestamps with the logged data on the SD card?
A logging meter would be useful for me but timestamps would be a necessity.
 

Offline electronic_eel

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2017, 10:50:04 pm »
Dave,

I have the source code and can compile if needed (have not tried it).
Very good.

Could you please also answer my question regarding the range button:
Page 26, RANGE button: the manual suggests that it is just for selecting the range of the diode test. Is this true? Doesn't it also allow to switch between manual and auto ranging in all the regular measurement functions and to manually select a specific range for e.g. dc voltage etc.?

Thanks.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2017, 10:50:32 pm »

When using it on your workbench it isn't an issue,
It is if the BT module is on the end of a slow-ish serial port
Quote
Can you download data from the SD card over Bluetooth?
If not, that would be a total fail.

No you cannot, and this has been discussed before on the forum somewhere.
It is not a fail. Reading the data from the SD card over Bluetooth is not easy to do nor quick (it's BLE, and there are data rate limits and packet limits), we looked into this and it was very hard to do. It's much quicker and easier to simply remove the SD card.

How accessible is it ? I thought it was behind the screwed-down fuse cover.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #116 on: December 06, 2017, 10:51:46 pm »
On the Amp Hour you mention you wanted to make a last minute hardware change (albeit fairly minor), but was faced with the fact that 2000 boards had already been printed, and a cost that could not be absorbed.  For this reason you were going to hold back, and maybe amend the board in a subsequent board spin.  Are you planning to do this between the first Dec batch, and the April batch, using the delay as a chance to make the change? 

No, not going to happen.

Quote
On the same note, what happens if/when there is a hardware change, and there are potentially different board revisions, with regards to firmware updates.  Will updates need to be board revision specific?

Maybe. Will cross that bridge if we ever come to it.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #117 on: December 06, 2017, 10:56:45 pm »
How accessible is it ? I thought it was behind the screwed-down fuse cover.

It is.
It takes less than 20 seconds to remove the holster, undo two screws (metal threaded insert), remove the battery cover and take out the SD card.
Yes, I timed it.
Hardly a chore for anyone who wants to do occasional data logging. And as I said, faster than dicking around with Bluetooth BLE and a ridiculously slow data rate.

If you are doing data logging all the time, I'd recommend buying a proper data logger with the convenient interface of your choice.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #118 on: December 06, 2017, 10:58:14 pm »
Could you please also answer my question regarding the range button:
Page 26, RANGE button: the manual suggests that it is just for selecting the range of the diode test. Is this true? Doesn't it also allow to switch between manual and auto ranging in all the regular measurement functions and to manually select a specific range for e.g. dc voltage etc.?

Yes, all the usual manual ranging on all the other functions.
 

Offline IanJ

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #119 on: December 06, 2017, 11:01:35 pm »

When using it on your workbench it isn't an issue,
It is if the BT module is on the end of a slow-ish serial port
Quote
Can you download data from the SD card over Bluetooth?
If not, that would be a total fail.

No you cannot, and this has been discussed before on the forum somewhere.
It is not a fail. Reading the data from the SD card over Bluetooth is not easy to do nor quick (it's BLE, and there are data rate limits and packet limits), we looked into this and it was very hard to do. It's much quicker and easier to simply remove the SD card.
It often takes longer to dick around with getting Bluetooth connected on your phone than it does the 20 seconds it takes to remove the SD card)

Quote
Dave/David - what is the transfer rate for log data over Bluetooth ?

About once a second as you see in the video.

Out of interest, this doc seems to demonstrate the practical limitations of BLE.
https://rigado.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/211413708/Practical-BLE-Throughput.pdf

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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #120 on: December 06, 2017, 11:21:32 pm »
>>Can you download data from the SD card over Bluetooth?
>>If not, that would be a total fail.

No you cannot, and this has been discussed before on the forum somewhere.
It is not a fail. Reading the data from the SD card over Bluetooth is not easy to do nor quick (it's BLE, and there are data rate limits and packet limits), we looked into this and it was very hard to do. It's much quicker and easier to simply remove the SD card.
It often takes longer to dick around with getting Bluetooth connected on your phone than it does the 20 seconds it takes to remove the SD card)

We did go over it some time ago but that discussion was about the prototype / preproduction meter.  Obviously there were various problems with that revision of the meter which includes the logging.  I may have gone back and cleaned up some of the posts to minimize the confusion.  With the meter being released,  I would not suggest anyone search through this old information.   
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #121 on: December 06, 2017, 11:27:30 pm »
How accessible is it ? I thought it was behind the screwed-down fuse cover.

It is.
It takes less than 20 seconds to remove the holster, undo two screws (metal threaded insert), remove the battery cover and take out the SD card.
Yes, I timed it.
Hardly a chore for anyone who wants to do occasional data logging. And as I said, faster than dicking around with Bluetooth BLE and a ridiculously slow data rate.

If you are doing data logging all the time, I'd recommend buying a proper data logger with the convenient interface of your choice.
You may well not be doing it all the time, but on the occasions you do need it, it's quite likely you will be doing multiple logging sessions, looking at results, doing another session etc., so having to swap the card could be a bit of a pain.  Apart from safety, is there any ergonomic downside to running ith the cover off  ? Are the screws self-tap or in inserts ?
I'm not familiar with the limitations of BLE - maybe instead of downloading the whole, log, some way of browsing it over BLE might be useful  as you are often looking for particular events or at a particular time. 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #123 on: December 06, 2017, 11:34:26 pm »
Dave

On the Amp Hour you mention you wanted to make a last minute hardware change (albeit fairly minor), but was faced with the fact that 2000 boards had already been printed, and a cost that could not be absorbed.  For this reason you were going to hold back, and maybe amend the board in a subsequent board spin.  Are you planning to do this between the first Dec batch, and the April batch, using the delay as a chance to make the change?  On the same note, what happens if/when there is a hardware change, and there are potentially different board revisions, with regards to firmware updates.  Will updates need to be board revision specific?

I've asked that a few times in various threads and I saw other's asking similar questions during the live feed.  For what ever the reason, they have gone unanswered.  Personally, I am not sure why it was brought up in the first place if discussing it was off limits.   With as many meters being released, I'm sure there will be countless reviews of it.  If there are problems with the hardware, I'm sure you will start hearing about them over the next several months. 
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Offline maukka

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Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: 121GW Multimeter on Kickstarter
« Reply #124 on: December 06, 2017, 11:36:22 pm »
If you need to check the logs often, why not just use the BT software on your phone or computer and see the data come in real time? The microSD card has to be accessed only when doing long unattended runs and then the removal isn't that big of a deal.
 


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