Author Topic: Cubiio laser  (Read 5527 times)

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Offline rpannen

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Cubiio laser
« on: August 18, 2017, 08:23:29 PM »
This will create a lot of laughter at certification labs: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/880456201/cubiio-the-most-compact-laser-engraver
 
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Offline Kean

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2017, 08:49:58 PM »
I'm surprised they even bother to mention certification.
The fact they've reached over half a million bucks in pledges in just 3 days is concerning.
This will have very few use cases if it ever ships.  There will be many disappointed backers (as usual).
 
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Offline Rbastler

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2017, 08:55:34 PM »
I wonder if most bakers will get it, if it ships. Customs may take it out and destroy it.

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Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2017, 09:18:15 PM »
Also had this in my "news" feed today.

What could possibly go wrong!
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Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2017, 09:26:09 PM »
Not a bad price for two galvos and a 1W laser.
 

Offline abraxa

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2017, 06:49:34 AM »
So... uh... 500mW output without the "shield" and it says metal can't be engraved or cut. How many people are going to try it anyway, pointing a 500mW laser at a highly reflective surface in the process? Potentially not even wearing safety goggles? Anyone wants to bet? I can see a class action lawsuit coming up...
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2017, 06:22:13 AM »
We have enough trouble with idiots getting hold of powerful laser pointers and aiming them at aircraft or vehicles, without something like this being sold.

The government's talked about airgun licensing because of a few incidents of misuse of such. To me this is overreaction, but a requirement for a license to own a laser of (say) 1W or more would not be unreasonable. Potentially these things are more dangerous than an airgun.
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2017, 08:16:26 AM »


Sorry guys ’n gals. I just could not resist  >:D
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 08:18:03 AM by frozenfrogz »
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Online blueskull

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2017, 08:29:06 AM »
I used to take a laser electronics class, and one of the midterm questions is:

Should I adjust a laser system by directly looking into the beam with my remaining eye?    Yes    No
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Offline usagi

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2017, 02:25:06 PM »
for lasers, especially for engraving, focus is absolutely critical.

there's no way they'll be able to focus in that tiny cube.

"Of course, the details of virtual lens algorithm are patented and confidential."

patented and confidential? simply not possible. patented = published and open to public examination. therefore, this kickstarter is complete bullshit.

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2017, 06:24:14 PM »
Although something like this could be made to work - CD mechanisms do dynamic focus, and you could use various means to measure the distances for a non-flat surface, safety kills it stone dead as a product.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2017, 06:33:34 PM »
"Laser Engraving is just as easy as having a cup of coffee"
And just as painful as spilling a hot cup of coffee in your eye.
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Online wilfred

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2017, 06:48:54 PM »
I'm surprised they even bother to mention certification.
The fact they've reached over half a million bucks in pledges in just 3 days is concerning.
This will have very few use cases if it ever ships.  There will be many disappointed backers (as usual).
It's nearly a million now and went up twice in the minutes I was looking at it. I'm glad they didn't actually show children using it.
That's just amazing.
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2017, 07:10:55 PM »
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 
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Online wilfred

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2017, 07:40:01 PM »
Well, when the kerning is off you just know it is bogus. Not having bad kerning. No way. Ha ha ha.
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2017, 02:07:22 AM »
For what its worth, it is some how related to a Taiwanese maker of full scale laser markers.. That presentation video, with the speeded up laser marking, must have cost between 25,000 and 40,000 USD to make..  I'd like to be a fly on the wall at the CDRH offices in Maryland when the consultant shows up to try to push the approval thru..  No keyswitch, no warning stickers, emission indicator is non-compliant, etc...

Really the US rules could permit it, provided it is operated in an enclosure to keep the emissions Class I.   However the limit switches on such an enclosure have always been required to be hardwired.

As for free air laser engraving, this is not anywhere near Class I or IIIA accessible energy limits, , so NO way... Again, unless some high Dollar Laser Safety Consultant, (I know three  of them) finds a loophole I'm not aware of.

Interestingly enough, they may, in some cases,  be required to have a US National do the paperwork and accept responsibility, once a notification of potential liability occurs from the Government.


Steve
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 02:11:15 AM by LaserSteve »
 

Offline usagi

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2017, 02:51:36 AM »
they'll just manufacture it in taiwan and find some backchannel importer to smuggle them into the US, like a lot of chinese lasercutter companies do.

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2017, 03:30:18 AM »
Something else you can see in most of the demos is theu are blowing air across the surface to.clear the smoke.Might make for a less attractive vid if you see the kid coughing from the fumes.

Not to mention the whole "setting things on fire" hazard...
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Offline Macman

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2017, 10:10:15 PM »
I dread to think how much their product liability insurance would cost them (not that I really expect they will bother getting it).
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2017, 10:48:55 PM »
Thanks LaserSteve, good points about the lack of keyswitches, laser safety warning lights and not a single laser warning sticker in sight. OK so they have a teeny tiny LED for a warning light but you can hardly see it. I read somewhere that the optimum focal distance is 150mm to 160mm, so it's fixed focus. As for "Traditional galvanometer laser machines correct image distortion problem by using "f-theta lens" and the "virtual lens algorithm" patent bull shit, the scanning angle is very narrow so you don't need f-theta lens and some simple image pre-distortion algorithms will fix things, hardly worth a patent application.
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2017, 03:10:59 AM »
A real question is did they correct for the laser diode's inherent astigmatism..  A 100 x 300 uM spot has inherent implications for marking, compared to a 100 um circularized spot.   Divergence out of the uncollimated diode might be 15 degrees in the slow axis and 35 degrees in the fast axis.

  For small scan angles, say less then 10 degrees,  the inherent mechanical  tangent distortion is near  naught, provided your target is very parallel to the scan head. Tangent  Correction math is easy enough for a fixed focal length and scan angles to 25 degrees or so.   Keystoning however is another matter.. How you position  it for minimal keystoning or skew without tooling boggles my mind. You'd need to burn a test target.

I've had my hands on the high power 405 nm diodes, and the uncorrected astigmatism is horrid.  Not to mention there is heat dissipation to cover, and normally that family of LD runs  around 600-800 mA at between 4.5 and 6.7 volts of forward drop, depending on manufacturer so you have around two to five  watts of heat to get rid of.

The galvos, if they use galvos, are going to be another ten to twenty  watts of dissipation minimum unless they have something extremely custom made with high Ohm coils, which, if done, would run their slew rate into the ground due to inductance issues.  Normal coil is around 3.2 Ohms.


Where is the heat sink? Laser diodes don't live long when ran hot.

Steve
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 03:41:36 AM by LaserSteve »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2017, 04:54:44 AM »
I don't see that galvos should be too.power hungry as they don't need to scan particularly fast, and tbe angle is small
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Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2017, 07:25:58 AM »
If they are not moving, just holding zero position,  a classical Galvo amp (~5 mm mirror size) draws about 160 mA positive rail and about 120 mA negative railm and needs 12 to 24 volt rails for maximum performance. .When they move, if tuned for full scale marking or laser show speeds, they can have 6 to 8 amp peaks during acceleration and deceleration. A good galvo amp puts minimal energy into holding position, probably  600-800 mA DC  for full scale deflection to one side.  You'll have two of those.  The 40 mA difference between rails at idle is the position sensor LED drive.  You will have an X and Y axis on this system so there are two sets of idle currents.

I doubt  they are using Class D, its often very difficult to close a DC feedback loop as needed with the galvo, around a commercial IC based  Class D amp.

For those who do not know, low inertia galvanometer scanners are one of the fastest precision controlled objects on a the planet when they have either a capacitive or optical position sensor and a good PID loop with notch filters.  Bandwidth can approach 7.5  KHz for very small angles on the latest systems.
 
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Offline edavid

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2017, 08:50:18 AM »
Why would such a slow device need galvos?  Wouldn't stepper motors be good enough for scanning?
 
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Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2017, 09:20:42 AM »
Hi guys, I recently had to re-design a galvo driver for a Cambridge Technology 6200H to replace a legacy design that would just about generate enough torque to overcome bearing friction. Anyway, the specification was that it had to run from a single 5V supply and the maximum slew rate only needed to be around 10 degrees (mechanical) /ms. Bridged pair of OPA567 op-amps for the driver stage with current limit set to 1.7A. Peak galvo current for a step input was about +/- 1.5A giving a risetime of 1ms or so, the mirrors were larger than usual. I think the overall loop gain from transimedance input stage to galvo drive output was a little over 130dB. Not exactly a really fast galvo driver but it did the job and would probably be more than good enough for a toy laser engraver.
It was based on the classic Cambridge design with a few tweaks here and there and I will publish it on the forum if anybody needs a 5V galvo driver for small galvos only.
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2017, 05:38:01 PM »
If they are not moving, just holding zero position,  a classical Galvo amp (~5 mm mirror size) draws about 160 mA positive rail and about 120 mA negative railm and needs 12 to 24 volt rails for maximum performance. .When they move, if tuned for full scale marking or laser show speeds, they can have 6 to 8 amp peaks during acceleration and deceleration. A good galvo amp puts minimal energy into holding position, probably  600-800 mA DC  for full scale deflection to one side.  You'll have two of those.  The 40 mA difference between rails at idle is the position sensor LED drive.  You will have an X and Y axis on this system so there are two sets of idle currents.

I doubt  they are using Class D, its often very difficult to close a DC feedback loop as needed with the galvo, around a commercial IC based  Class D amp.

For those who do not know, low inertia galvanometer scanners are one of the fastest precision controlled objects on a the planet when they have either a capacitive or optical position sensor and a good PID loop with notch filters.  Bandwidth can approach 7.5  KHz for very small angles on the latest systems.
But for this application they don't need to be anywhere near as fast as laser-show galvos.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2017, 11:51:37 PM »
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Offline ferrix

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2017, 02:20:12 AM »
That was a great read.
 

Offline usagi

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2017, 03:16:01 AM »
they came to their senses and realized their product was illegal as designed. so they announced it will now be downgraded to IIIB and have an enclosure.

watch their backers lose their minds LMAO!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/880456201/cubiio-the-most-compact-laser-engraver/posts/1975824
 
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Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2017, 05:57:11 AM »
watch their backers lose their minds LMAO!

This update posted after the one you mentioned is even more hilarious :)
Take a look at the letters from Kickstarter linked in that post. They have until Wednesday to persuade their backers to switch from the tiers for a "free-air-cubiio" to the shield one. All perks from backers that did not switch will be canceled and refunded by KS.
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Offline RGB255_0_0

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2017, 06:09:33 AM »
Someone linked to https://www.tomtop.com/others-216/p-e2565b-eu.html in the comments.

What extra shielding would be required to make this safe(r) as there is only 1 piece of "shield" on it  :palm:
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Offline abraxa

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2017, 06:40:27 AM »
So funny how they all don't get that they're wielding a freaking dangerous weapon when using this thing. Whining about how they can no longer put it on a skateboard, then say that the $99 illegal Chinese import can do just that... yeah well, try holding that Chinese company liable when you blind yourself (or someone else!) with it :palm:
 

Offline usagi

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2017, 02:29:52 PM »
"Kickstarter is forcing us to do these changes."

no, the fucking FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is forcing you to.

if you sell the original class IV laser with no enclosure in the US, you will GO TO PRISON.

jesus, these people are seriously retarded.

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2017, 12:30:02 AM »
"Kickstarter is forcing us to do these changes."

no, the fucking FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is forcing you to.

if you sell the original class IV laser with no enclosure in the US, you will GO TO PRISON.

jesus, these people are seriously retarded.

The following is an example of a someone who should not be allowed around any tools or machinery lest they recieve a Darwin award. :palm:
Quote

Please consider having the laser operational when the metal plate on the shield is removed, so that it can still work on bigger flat surfaces. Full spectrum laser in the US have a machine that does this, so that you can engrave on large items, so as something on a larger scale is already being sold around the wold, their surely should be no safely issues!!!!
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline janoc

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2017, 01:12:43 AM »
"Kickstarter is forcing us to do these changes."

no, the fucking FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is forcing you to.

if you sell the original class IV laser with no enclosure in the US, you will GO TO PRISON.

jesus, these people are seriously retarded.

The company is Taiwanese. They literally have no clue that there are actually (*gasp*) regulations in place for laser
products, since down there pretty much anything goes.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 01:15:38 AM by janoc »
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2017, 01:16:38 AM »
So funny how they all don't get that they're wielding a freaking dangerous weapon when using this thing. Whining about how they can no longer put it on a skateboard, then say that the $99 illegal Chinese import can do just that... yeah well, try holding that Chinese company liable when you blind yourself (or someone else!) with it :palm:

Cubiio company is in Taiwan ... So not a whole lot of difference there.
 

Offline Kean

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2017, 01:18:18 AM »
How about this guy?
Quote
Xander C. about 17 hours ago

The thing that hits me hardest about this is that Kickstarter is stopping people from getting what they want. However, they don't lift a finger when people get defrauded by other groups. Kickstarter has a wonderfully screwed morality and set of ethics.

He doesn't realise the simple fact that Kickstarter is forcing this rule on Cubiio because the product in its original form would not be permitted to be sold (even imported) in most countries, and thus the creator could not deliver rewards (not that they could be able to deliver what they're promising either)
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2017, 04:29:47 AM »
How about this guy?
Quote
Xander C. about 17 hours ago

The thing that hits me hardest about this is that Kickstarter is stopping people from getting what they want. However, they don't lift a finger when people get defrauded by other groups. Kickstarter has a wonderfully screwed morality and set of ethics.

He doesn't realise the simple fact that Kickstarter is forcing this rule on Cubiio because the product in its original form would not be permitted to be sold (even imported) in most countries, and thus the creator could not deliver rewards (not that they could be able to deliver what they're promising either)

Well, I am not sure that even the Cubiio team actually realizes this. The KS letter talks about "fulfillment risk" (aka not being able to deliver) but that it is because the product has no chance to pass any certification and be legally sold in the US or Europe is not mentioned anywhere. The Chinese stores like AliExpress or Banggood are full of dangerous contraptions like this, so they could be feeling unfairly singled out:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/JEDI-2500mW-Desktop-DIY-Violet-Laser-Engraving-Machine-Picture-CNC-Printer-working-area-20cmx16cm/32552641483.html
or
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/CNC-Engraving-Machine-1000mW-Automatic-DIY-Print-laser-engraver-mini-USB-Engraving-Machine-Off-line-Operation/32821151492.html

or
https://www.banggood.com/2500mW-22x17cm-Desktop-Violet-Laser-Engraver-Engraving-Machine-Picture-CNC-Printer-DIY-p-1005604.html

So while that backer may be clueless, I wouldn't blame him for not understanding this. It is not him (or her) who should know that!
 

Offline Codebird

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2017, 04:39:34 AM »
Some of those dodgy-looking home engravers look like they might be halfway-decent for making circuit boards on. I've been using a milling machine, but it's so finicky only about one in three boards comes out right. I usually use stripboard unless I really must have SMD parts.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2017, 05:49:04 AM »
Some of those dodgy-looking home engravers look like they might be halfway-decent for making circuit boards on. I've been using a milling machine, but it's so finicky only about one in three boards comes out right. I usually use stripboard unless I really must have SMD parts.

They usually sell these cheap (and crappy) CNC machines as "engravers", because a bluray diode in a casing costs peanuts and hey, extra feature!

 

Offline Kean

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2017, 08:14:58 AM »
Well, I am not sure that even the Cubiio team actually realizes this.
Yes they do.  They're just in denial, due to a million plus dollars being on the line.

So while that backer may be clueless, I wouldn't blame him for not understanding this. It is not him (or her) who should know that!
Yeah, fair enough - but if you back a Kickstarter you're responsible for doing some research and critical thinking.
Even Cubiio linked to the AvE video (that rips it a new one) in one of their updates.

Maybe this whole KS is just a scam to get AvE more viewers!  Dave should think about this  :-DD
 

Offline biot

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2017, 09:04:55 AM »
Well, I am not sure that even the Cubiio team actually realizes this. The KS letter talks about "fulfillment risk" (aka not being able to deliver) but that it is because the product has no chance to pass any certification and be legally sold in the US or Europe is not mentioned anywhere. The Chinese stores like AliExpress or Banggood are full of dangerous contraptions like this, so they could be feeling unfairly singled out:

Here's a video review of another cheap laser engraver from Bangood:



The safety problem with that thing is downright spectacular, as is demonstrated.
 
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Offline janoc

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2017, 07:29:48 AM »
Here's a video review of another cheap laser engraver from Bangood:



The safety problem with that thing is downright spectacular, as is demonstrated.

Yeah, no crap given about safety. Just bolt a laser diode to a gantry and call it an engraver ...

 

Offline X

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2017, 04:19:52 PM »
I wonder if most bakers will get it, if it ships. Customs may take it out and destroy it.
I've heard of that kind of thing happening before:

(first 2 mins)
Could be fake, but still more realistic than a laser cube.

I cannot help noticing that all these bullshit projects have repulsive "i-Apple-Smart-Fad-Connect-Online" style aesthetics and nomenclature. We are now in the Stoner Age.
 

Offline timothyaag

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2017, 11:06:21 PM »
 

Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2017, 11:16:00 PM »
 :wtf:
Did they really just make an IGG? https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cubiio-the-most-compact-laser-engraver#/

 :palm:

After all, they think people are stupid and would not notice.

...sadly people are that stupid and would not bother even if they noticed.  :scared::scared::scared:
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2017, 06:40:52 AM »
:wtf:
Did they really just make an IGG? https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cubiio-the-most-compact-laser-engraver#/

 :palm:

After all, they think people are stupid and would not notice.

...sadly people are that stupid and would not bother even if they noticed.  :scared::scared::scared:

It says "FROZEN", I think for once Indiegogo actually got em.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline DJohn

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2017, 07:59:09 PM »
Did they really just make an IGG? https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cubiio-the-most-compact-laser-engraver#/

Someone posted it on the Kickstarter comments and asked if it was theirs.  They said no, and they would ask IGG to shut it down.  Looks like they did.

It'll be the usual case of a scammer cloning a successful campaign on another site, hoping to get some easy cash.
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2017, 10:44:44 AM »
Looks like they have added a three axis accelerometer to. "Enhance" safety.

Steve
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2017, 04:15:51 AM »
Looks like they have added a three axis accelerometer to. "Enhance" safety.

Steve

 :o But how is that supposed to do anything? An anti-tip feature?
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Cubiio laser
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2017, 11:04:35 AM »
They don't disclose the algorithm, but
My bet is it looks for local vertical to keep the regulators happy.

Steve
 


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