Author Topic: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter  (Read 4559 times)

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Offline Rufus

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2014, 04:49:13 AM »
I have some supplementary questions too,

The patent mentioned above answers most of your questions.

Online Galaxyrise

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2014, 05:04:26 AM »
OK, I will just tell it to the landlord. He will probably jump with joy to install one for me.
How is it that you're in a position to install an in-line water heater but not a water softener?
I am but an egg

Offline fcb

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2014, 05:51:10 AM »
I have some supplementary questions too,

The patent mentioned above answers most of your questions.

I've read the patent, and I'm fine with that. EXCEPT the picture on the KS website shows a fairly large plain/flat graphite colored electrode AND the pic of the assembly shows what looks like four electrodes (ISI state that there are a pair of earthing electrodes).

Now the patent referenced shows multiple electrodes arranged in channels with small gaps between them, this I fully expect would work, however I cannot see how the water between the two large plain/flat electrodes placed a distance apart (again looking at the picture) can hit 5-6 ohms.

I'm sure the KS is genuine and that the technology works, just wondering what I am missing????

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2014, 05:19:02 AM »
OK, I will just tell it to the landlord. He will probably jump with joy to install one for me.
How is it that you're in a position to install an in-line water heater but not a water softener?
I'm just trolling here. No actually I would never buy one of these, as gas is the only viable solution for water heating, after the sun of course.
But you see, that this new construction has some unresolved issues, I pointed out.

Online madshaman

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Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2014, 05:25:04 AM »

OK, I will just tell it to the landlord. He will probably jump with joy to install one for me.
How is it that you're in a position to install an in-line water heater but not a water softener?
I'm just trolling here. No actually I would never buy one of these, as gas is the only viable solution for water heating, after the sun of course.

Omg, thank-you for freaking saying it; for an engineering forum, this should be obvious.
To be responsible, but never to let fear stop the imagination.

Offline Rufus

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2014, 05:47:42 AM »
I'm just trolling here. No actually I would never buy one of these, as gas is the only viable solution for water heating, after the sun of course.

Omg, thank-you for freaking saying it; for an engineering forum, this should be obvious.

It isn't obvious or true. Gas isn't available everywhere. Where I am gas is about 1/3rd the price of electricity by energy content. Heating water with gas is less efficient than with electricity. The equipment and installation are much more expensive for gas. For a local supply of hot water you need a local flue which may not be possible, otherwise you heat a lot of water in pipes which gets wasted.

Electricity may be the only option and where it isn't it is still viable depending on where and hot much hot water you want.

Offline Poe

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2014, 08:27:42 AM »
That quote....

People,
As the inventor , please allow me to clarify a few things.
I understand the skepticism when approaching an entirely new technology, especially one that is clearly disruptive and replaces what has commonly been used for decades.  Your point is that our claim of using graphite heating elements, cannot be true.  We do not use graphite heating elements. We do not use heating elements at all.  We do not employ any aspect of heat transfer.  Our technology (and our patent) is based on Direct Energy Resistance. This technology heats the water by passing a current though one or more pairs of graphite electrodes (which are not heating elements, but electrical conductors, which is why they do not get hotter than the water) , which excite the water molecules causing friction between the molecules, which results in the water heating itself.  Same concept as a microwave, except we use a different method to excite the water molecules. Same method as NUCOR and other steel mills use to melt steel; pass enough current through the material (in this case water) and it gets hotter. So the is no latent heat - zero.  Its like comparing a water proof toaster to a microwave. 2nd law of thermo does not apply here.
Since the electrodes don't get hot like heating elements, they do not get mineral deposition, or "scale" on them.
Rheem constantly makes misleading headline statements about they capacity. For example, they claim 4 GPM at 13kW. When you read the fine print, that results in a 20 degree temp rise, which unless you have incoming water at 90 degrees, is not going to give you a warm shower. The equation for all tankless is kW X 6.83 = temp rise (F) X GPM. You can see that their, and other units, follow this formulas as do we. You cannot beat physics.
I suspect some of you are thinking that this is a dangerous device; 1) Current only passes through one or more pairs of electrodes, creating a circuit, with no stray currents. However, we have added two grounding plates in the water chambers as a safeguard and we have passed UL 499 standard in our lab, which assures safety. Any and all units we ship will pass the $(( standard as certified by an outside lab, such as UL or TUV.
If you want to see the US patent, it is number 7,817,906
There are many reasons why people post projects on Kickstarter. Maybe some are desperate, we are not.
Thanks
Jerry Callahan

This might be an improvement over inline electric tankless water heaters, but lets be honest.  Electric tankless systems are a novelty, up-sold by contractors to the impatient wealthy.  They are not a replacement for the traditional tank system and MUST be used in conjunction. 

Your marketing is pretty devious.  It makes all kinds of implications, insinuations and just incorrect statements concerning your system in comparison to other heating systems.  Most of the time you're really spinning the numbers and making crazy assumptions behind the scenes. 

Nearly half of all residential water heaters in the USA are conventional electric tank systems.  Less than 1% (using any metric other than total installation cost per GPM) are electric tankless systems because they just suck in every way. 

Lets limit comparisons to other electric systems. There are really only two.  The cheap (traditional tanks) and the best (heat pumps).

First, efficiency....
Even the cheap conventional water heaters are >90% efficient!  Go online, find a cheap water heater, look at the mfr specs and how they measure efficiency.

Quote from: ISI KS page
"The largest drawback of tank water heaters is that they waste a tremendous amount of energy heating water when no one is using hot water."
nope.

THAT 90% EFFICIENCY NUMBER INCLUDES ANY HEAT LOST WHILE SITTING THERE OVER 24HOURS!
eCFR Code of Federal Regulations...
10 CFR 430, Subpart B, Appendix E..
"Uniform Test Method for Measuring the Energy Consumption of Water Heaters"
5.1.5.24
"24-Hour Simulated Use Test"


Conventional electric storage water heaters have improved REAL WORLD efficiency results thanks to this extended testing period.  It forced manufacturers to add internal liners, outer coatings, better R-value bulk insulation, eliminate drafty outer shells, isolated the base, use two heating elements and put thermal taps on the ports. 

Heat pumps produce just as much hot water, but consume a half (real world typical) as much power.  No violation of thermo.

How does Heatwork's tankless 99% efficient unit provide "up to 40% energy savings" unless it's compared to...something else?  All cost saving comparisons I find on the KS page were referencing gas heater numbers or in the case of that EnergyStar pamphlet, specs from systems that haven't existed for half a century....

Operational cost savings...
Cost comparison with a traditional tank is easy (90% vs 99%).  A typical family would therefore see an average annual savings less than $50

ROI = 'div by zero'

Comparing to the operational cost of a heatpump is also easy.  The Heatworks unit consumes, on average, twice as much power.
 
Space and Installation costs...

Tankless systems either take up your storage areas or they require holes punched in your walls, pipes and two phase lines run to those walls and access panels installed. 
"you will save space with our small 12" long unit rather than a big 46" unit!"
With plumbing, junction boxes capable of handling 10AWG wire and access panels, how much space does this 12" thing take up?  How many of these small 12" units will I need to install to replace one $300 conventional tank?  I might need more rooms in my house.

You say in your video that:
"in new construction, it's actually less expensive, up-front, to install these around the house, ... and run cold water and electrical wiring to them, than it is to run hot water pipe through the house."

I'm waiting for the disclaimer on this one.  Considering your product's capacity is so low that it needs to be used in conjunction with a conventional hot water tank.....a tank that gets water to your product with hot water lines....

Capacity...
I have two 7GPM showers and four 2GPM sinks.  My water comes from the utility at 55F and I want it 120F.  So each of my showers would need 66KW (7 of these units), and my sinks would each need 19KW (two units).  My entire home service is only rated at 44KW and I need to supply 210KW!?  Assuming I dedicate an entirely new electrical service to these things, and only let one turn on at a time... I can just barely take a comfortable shower?

Water savings......
The "10% water savings" statement assumes that 10% of my TOTAL water consumption is allowed to flow down the drain, right?  A large amount of the water I use is 100% cold water.  Dishwaster, cooking, drinking, toilets.  These things don't let the water run while waiting for the warm stuff.  To offset this fact, I would need to increase the relative percentage of time I waste water while waiting.  So how do you calculate the average amount of hot water that goes down the drain?! 

In your video you say that this unit saves one to two GPM every time you use your hot water tap.  What does that even mean?  It restricts my flow by 1.5GPM?  Couldn't I do the same with an obstruction like a hunk of dirt?  Then you state it saves 20 to 40 gallons per day without explaining how that is even possible.

The alternatives...
Heat pumps are better solution to any hot water system in every way.  They consume (typically) half the power as even this 99% efficient system for the same heat output as a conventional tank (no violation of thermo laws).  They are able to service an entire REAL WORLD home, not a home that only turns on one super low flow faucet on at a time.  Upfront costs of heat pumps are the only down side.  Although more expensive than conventional $300 tanks, they have a measurable ROI over something like this. 

This device might have applications, but I don't see them.  Anyone that wants the luxury of instant hot water just needs to install a circulating bleed valve.  It's a very cheap DIY project that bleeds a very small amount of hot water from the far end of the house to mix with the cold supply periodically.  This keeps the hot water supply line warm without wasting much energy.  Simple and cheap.






Online mtdoc

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2014, 09:05:07 AM »

Heat pumps are better solution to any hot water system in every way.  They consume (typically) half the power as even this 99% efficient system for the same heat output as a conventional tank (no violation of thermo laws).  They are able to service an entire REAL WORLD home, not a home that only turns on one super low flow faucet on at a time.  Upfront costs of heat pumps are the only down side.  Although more expensive than conventional $300 tanks, they have a measurable ROI over something like this. 

This device might have applications, but I don't see them.


Absolutely spot on.  :-+

I have a Nyle Geyser heat pump unit that works great.  It plugs into a 120V outlet and with the 240V service to our 50 gallon standard electric tank turned off, in the summer, with the tank cold,  it will take our water from 50 F to 120 F drawing about 600 watts over 4 hours.  Exact power use depends on the ambient temperature of the surrounding air in our basement untility room- with colder temps it uses more power. In the summer it allows us to heat our hot water with excess PV power from our solar system. As a bonus it cools and dehumidifies the utility room which also serves as my lab! ;D

The nice thing about these units is that they are separate from the tank - so that when the tank dies - you just hook it up to the new one. The popular GE Geospring units are part of the tank themselves and must also be replaced.

Tankless, on demand propane units do make sense in some situations and sometimes so do tankless electric - but this "Heatworks" kickstarter unit makes no sense to me - I see no advantages to what is already available and plenty of disadvantages. :--


Offline sync

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2014, 09:06:24 AM »
In Germany the tankless water heaters uses not insulated heating wire which is in direct contact with water. Low thermal mass and low losses. Age-old technology which simply works. They last decades without maintenance. I don't see an advantage of this new technology.

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2014, 09:58:53 AM »
To FCB.
The photo on the KS campaign was meant to  show what the electrodes look like, not the whole array, which would be hard to distinguish in a photo (we tried!) and these are not the earthing electrodes.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Jerry

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2014, 10:02:30 AM »
To sync,
The biggest advantage is that our technology does not get scaling or mineral deposits which cause all electric tank heating elements to overheat and fail. Most Europeans know that they should have their units descaled, sometimes as frequently as once a year.
Thanks,
Jerry

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2014, 10:07:41 AM »

Offline sync

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2014, 01:00:35 AM »
To sync,
The biggest advantage is that our technology does not get scaling or mineral deposits which cause all electric tank heating elements to overheat and fail. Most Europeans know that they should have their units descaled, sometimes as frequently as once a year.
Thanks,
Jerry
That's not a problem with the tankless heaters I mean. They are self cleaning due the thermal expansion and contraction of the heating wire. They run decades without maintenance.

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2014, 01:30:12 AM »
To Sync,
That is not actually true for tankless electric. This is from Stiebel Eltron's web site.
Thanks,
Jerry
Does my Stiebel Eltron tankless electric water heater need to
be vented?

» Stiebel Eltron tankless electric water heaters are designed for a very long service life, but actual life expectancy will be directly affected by water quality and use. If you do not already know the quality of your water, we advise testing (your water department may be able to assist). Installing a non-salt based softener or polyphosphate inline filter may prolong the life of your unit. Stiebel Eltron recommends the HousePure® water filter (our Part No. 581331) for this purpose. To ensure consistent water flow, we recommend periodically checking for and removing any scale and dirt in the faucet aerators and showerheads, and in the filter screen in the unit. Depending on water hardness, scale build-up may need to be flushed from the unit every six months to a year. This will prolong the life of your water heater, and help ensure optimal performance. We recommend our Flow-aide Descaling Kit (our Part No. 540000) for this purpose. Alternatively white vinegar or CLR® Calcium, Lime & Rust Remover may be used.

Descaling procedure, step-by-step:

1. Disconnect power to water heater.
2. Close hot and cold isolation and service valves and remove service caps.
3. Pour 1.5 gallons of water into bucket and place under water heater.
4. Add contents of 1 quart bottle of Flow-aide into bucket (bucket should be filled approximately ½ full).
5. Connect one hose pump, and other end of same hose to cold service valve. Place pump in bucket.
6. Connect second hose to hot service valve. Place other end in bucket.
7. Open both hot and cold service valves.
8. Plug pump into grounded receptacle.
9. Allow pump to circulate Flow-aide solution through heater for 30-45 minutes. Unplug pump.
10. Close cold service valve. Remove hose from cold service valve, and replace service cap.
11. Disconnect the hose from the pump and remove pump from bucket. Discard Flow-aide solution.
12. Flush tankless water heater for 3-5 minutes or until water flows clear by opening the cold isolation valve and allowing water to exit through the hot service valve into a drain or bucket. If using a bucket, empty periodically.
13. Close hot service valve. Remove hose from service valve and replace service cap.
14. Open hot isolation valve.
15. Connect power to water heater and return appliance to service.

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2014, 01:40:16 AM »
Sorry,
when i cut and pasted I copied this by mistake. Please ignore in previous post.
Thanks,
Jerry

Does my Stiebel Eltron tankless electric water heater need to
be vented?


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