Author Topic: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter  (Read 14007 times)

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Lurch

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2014, 09:51:17 AM »
I don't think they will make any difference.  If they are pumping X kilowatts into the water they could well get X mA to earth.

No, clutching at straws here tbh.

Perhaps it will succeed on KS, but can't help but think it's going to be a commercial flop.

I've seen loads of electric space and water heating products touted as clean/efficient/simple/instantaneous etc... over the last 20 years of being in the trade. Still don't find them being fitted unless there is no other option.
 

Offline peter.mitchell

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2014, 11:35:48 AM »
IMHO, it doesnt matter if its 70-80-99% efficient, you're still heating water with electricity you are buying from the grid, its gonna be expensive.
 

Offline fcb

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2014, 12:34:29 PM »
IMHO, it doesnt matter if its 70-80-99% efficient, you're still heating water with electricity you are buying from the grid, its gonna be expensive.

Yes, it does.

Let's say the unit has SMPSU inside and it runs at 1W (perhaps doing housekeeping, checking for water demand, servicing the Wifi(!), lighting a pretty blue LED, etc...). Also, lets assume that the unit is in your downstairs toilet and gets used for 1 minute a day at 5KW.

SMPSU daily draw: 24Whrs/day
Water heater draw: 83Whrs/day
Efficiency: 77.6%

I accept that the case is different if you put it in a shower, the warm-up time of an electric shower is a couple of seconds and even if the 'direct' heater unit is quicker - it's not going to be instant - which means I still get hit with a blast of cold water unless if hold the shower head out of the way momentarily.

Now if they incorporated their technology directly into the shower head... that would be sexy.
 

Offline peter.mitchell

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2014, 02:21:53 PM »
IMHO, it doesnt matter if its 70-80-99% efficient, you're still heating water with electricity you are buying from the grid, its gonna be expensive.

Yes, it does.

Let's say the unit has SMPSU inside and it runs at 1W (perhaps doing housekeeping, checking for water demand, servicing the Wifi(!), lighting a pretty blue LED, etc...). Also, lets assume that the unit is in your downstairs toilet and gets used for 1 minute a day at 5KW.

SMPSU daily draw: 24Whrs/day
Water heater draw: 83Whrs/day
Efficiency: 77.6%

I accept that the case is different if you put it in a shower, the warm-up time of an electric shower is a couple of seconds and even if the 'direct' heater unit is quicker - it's not going to be instant - which means I still get hit with a blast of cold water unless if hold the shower head out of the way momentarily.

Now if they incorporated their technology directly into the shower head... that would be sexy.

But hey, lets use that same crazy low figure you showed there, bam, that figure is crazy low, even though the efficiency is low, it is still quite low over all, so you can power it from a non grid energy source for "free"
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2014, 05:41:49 PM »
http://www.noritz.com/

That's one I hear about frequently.
The larger the government, the smaller the citizen.
 

Offline fcb

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2014, 12:40:32 AM »
I love the picture on their w/s of the installation in the garage... is that a... Prius
 

Lurch

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2014, 03:20:21 AM »
I was watching This Old House the other day from 2003. Kevin thingy was was getting a hard on over a front loading washer and dryer because of how modern and easy to use they are. We've been using them for 30 odd years+ They were also extolling the virtues of this new fangled gas burning water heater. We've been using gas to heat water for 40-50 years or more.

http://www.noritz.com/

That's one I hear about frequently.

We stopped using single point gas water heaters in the 70's.
 

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2014, 04:58:21 AM »
People,
As the inventor , please allow me to clarify a few things.
I understand the skepticism when approaching an entirely new technology, especially one that is clearly disruptive and replaces what has commonly been used for decades.  Your point is that our claim of using graphite heating elements, cannot be true.  We do not use graphite heating elements. We do not use heating elements at all.  We do not employ any aspect of heat transfer.  Our technology (and our patent) is based on Direct Energy Resistance. This technology heats the water by passing a current though one or more pairs of graphite electrodes (which are not heating elements, but electrical conductors, which is why they do not get hotter than the water) , which excite the water molecules causing friction between the molecules, which results in the water heating itself.  Same concept as a microwave, except we use a different method to excite the water molecules. Same method as NUCOR and other steel mills use to melt steel; pass enough current through the material (in this case water) and it gets hotter. So the is no latent heat - zero.  Its like comparing a water proof toaster to a microwave. 2nd law of thermo does not apply here.
Since the electrodes don't get hot like heating elements, they do not get mineral deposition, or "scale" on them.
Rheem constantly makes misleading headline statements about they capacity. For example, they claim 4 GPM at 13kW. When you read the fine print, that results in a 20 degree temp rise, which unless you have incoming water at 90 degrees, is not going to give you a warm shower. The equation for all tankless is kW X 6.83 = temp rise (F) X GPM. You can see that their, and other units, follow this formulas as do we. You cannot beat physics.
I suspect some of you are thinking that this is a dangerous device; 1) Current only passes through one or more pairs of electrodes, creating a circuit, with no stray currents. However, we have added two grounding plates in the water chambers as a safeguard and we have passed UL 499 standard in our lab, which assures safety. Any and all units we ship will pass the $(( standard as certified by an outside lab, such as UL or TUV.
If you want to see the US patent, it is number 7,817,906
There are many reasons why people post projects on Kickstarter. Maybe some are desperate, we are not.
Thanks
Jerry Callahan
 

Offline madshaman

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Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2014, 05:14:34 AM »
My two cents: power purchased from the grid is probably the most expensive way to heat water. There are plenty natural-gas based inline products and burning gas to create heat is as close to efficient as you can get.

I'm also not keen on the idea of a high potential being applied to the liquid I'm filling my bathtub with (didn't read the site, basing this on the "direct electrical resistance technology" quote shared).  I'm sure it's all failsafe and that but..
To be responsible, but never to let fear stop the imagination.
 

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2014, 05:24:57 AM »
No doubt gas is less expensive than electricity, but half of US does not have gas.
As far as safety, electricity always take the path of least resistance, which is not going to be from the water heater to you, it would be from inside the water hear to the ground plates inside the water heater. And, safety is why UL is in business, which is why we value and comply with their testing standards.
Thanks,
Jerry
 

Offline madshaman

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Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2014, 05:46:32 AM »

No doubt gas is less expensive than electricity, but half of US does not have gas.
As far as safety, electricity always take the path of least resistance

Thank-you for your reply.  I must disagree with your statement about the path electricity takes.  It is my belief that current flows through all possible paths, the amount of current (at low frequencies) being determinable by applying Ohm's law and using Kirchhoff's laws.

I agree the because charge carriers are quantum phenomena that there are paths where the current truly is zero over small local intervals of time.

That being said, it is still conceivable that a return path through someone's body exists that has low enough impedance relative to the most conductive return path and significant current *will* flow through that body.

Although unlikely, municipal water isn't perfectly homogeneous and unforeseen mineral deposits and/or chemical reactions within the water system really can create a scenario where measurable current could flow through an unintended load; such as a baby.

I'm sure your system is safe, but to make a statement like "electricity always takes the path of least resistance" is grossly inaccurate (as it implies: electricity *only* flows along the path of least resistance); no-one's electronics would work at all if this were true, and this statement doesn't really indicate any real measure of safety.
To be responsible, but never to let fear stop the imagination.
 

Offline remixed123

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2014, 05:47:30 AM »
Hey Jerry, really interesting technology, it could as you suggest change the way we heat our water. No need for dual pipes and all the waste that happens with the current solution. It also looks like a space saver, which is becoming more important with high density apartments.

I kind of laughed when I thought about the change or should I say return to the past. One of the first places I rented when in 2nd year at uni in the 80s had individual gas water heating for the bathroom and kitchen. It was dangerous and not very effective, not the best device for drunk uni students!

Best of luck with the kickstarter, looks like you have already hit your target, so it's off to a good start.

Glenn.
LightServer - Mobile App controlled, Wi-Fi enabled RGB lighting with music synchronized effects and much more -  https://www.hackster.io/remixed123/lightserver/
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2014, 06:17:51 AM »
We do not use graphite heating elements. We do not use heating elements at all.

Then maybe your kickstarter campaign shouldn't say this

Quote
HEATWORKS MODEL 1's graphite heating elements never get hotter than the surrounding water

and this being an electronic engineering forum we know how resistors work.
 

Offline Rufus

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2014, 06:37:48 AM »
Another thing. I wondered how it managed to do without a flow sensor or switch which they criticise existing units for having.

The patent reveals they don't manage. The 1 1/2 cups (lol) of water in the unit are kept at the set delivery temperature 24/7 which will cripple the efficiency of installations where hot water is infrequently required.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2014, 06:49:07 AM »
So not an instant heater rather a very small storage cylinder with a really overrated element. Wonder how well the insulation performs. Here the standard is pretty lax, 2.3kWh per 24 hour period. that means you use typically 2.3 units per day to just keep the water hot. I improved that by more insulation and by insulating the water lines into and out of the unit.
 

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2014, 10:59:07 AM »
So let me answer a few things.
1) We corrected the language on the KS page to better reflect the technology. The language about heating elements was wrong  and it got past me. Sorry about that.
2) All "tankless" water heaters have about that same amount of water in them, but to do without the flow switch is of paramount importance. The amount of energy to keep that small amount of water warm is insignificant.
3) So when existing tank or tankless units's heating elements fail, what happens? The current goes into the water until the breaker trips. Ours is designed to do the same thing, and we add two ground plates as well.
Thanks for the input.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2014, 04:04:28 PM »
Ok. I have this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water If I have a boiler, that would still work. With your "direct heating resistance whatever" we have a very good electrical isolator on the electrodes, so after time, the output power declines, until unusable. Than, since cleaning a graphite is impossible, I have to replace my electrode. Every 6-12 months, looking at the kitchen sink.
 

Lurch

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2014, 12:43:37 AM »
Ok. I have this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water If I have a boiler, that would still work. With your "direct heating resistance whatever" we have a very good electrical isolator on the electrodes, so after time, the output power declines, until unusable. Than, since cleaning a graphite is impossible, I have to replace my electrode. Every 6-12 months, looking at the kitchen sink.

You need a water softener.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2014, 05:02:52 AM »
Ok. I have this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water If I have a boiler, that would still work. With your "direct heating resistance whatever" we have a very good electrical isolator on the electrodes, so after time, the output power declines, until unusable. Than, since cleaning a graphite is impossible, I have to replace my electrode. Every 6-12 months, looking at the kitchen sink.

You need a water softener.
OK, I will just tell it to the landlord. He will probably jump with joy to install one for me.
 

Offline fcb

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2014, 04:39:45 AM »
Hmm.. Let's be generous and use the spec's they quote on their KS.

1.5KW @ 100VRMS = 6.66 ohms
13.3KW @ 277VRMS = 5.77 ohms

I've just measured my tapwater resistance across two stainless metal rulers approx. 20mm apart, I get something like 6Kohms (it keeps climbing).

We are in an area of the UK which gets "very hard" water, and we don't use a water softener (we get through at least one electric kettle per year, and fit a new washing machine element every 3-4 years I guess), so I would expect our water to be lower impedance than the UK average.

Even if the KS units elements are closer, and much bigger, I cannot imagine how they hit even their lowest 'capacity' rating.  What am I missing here?

So ISI, from the picture on the KS I see 4 graphite electrodes, assuming that two these are 'grounding plates' can you answer the following questions:
1. How big are the electrodes (H x W)?
2. How far apart are the electrodes?

I have some supplementary questions too, but I understand if you haven't tested for them or it's proprietary knowledge:
3. How much current flows through earth on a typical unit?
4. How do you prevent limescale building up on the electrodes?
5. How do you measure water-flow and/or temperature?
6. Will the unit work with purified water?

 

Offline Rufus

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2014, 04:49:13 AM »
I have some supplementary questions too,

The patent mentioned above answers most of your questions.
 

Offline Galaxyrise

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2014, 05:04:26 AM »
OK, I will just tell it to the landlord. He will probably jump with joy to install one for me.
How is it that you're in a position to install an in-line water heater but not a water softener?
I am but an egg
 

Offline fcb

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2014, 05:51:10 AM »
I have some supplementary questions too,

The patent mentioned above answers most of your questions.

I've read the patent, and I'm fine with that. EXCEPT the picture on the KS website shows a fairly large plain/flat graphite colored electrode AND the pic of the assembly shows what looks like four electrodes (ISI state that there are a pair of earthing electrodes).

Now the patent referenced shows multiple electrodes arranged in channels with small gaps between them, this I fully expect would work, however I cannot see how the water between the two large plain/flat electrodes placed a distance apart (again looking at the picture) can hit 5-6 ohms.

I'm sure the KS is genuine and that the technology works, just wondering what I am missing????
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2014, 05:19:02 AM »
OK, I will just tell it to the landlord. He will probably jump with joy to install one for me.
How is it that you're in a position to install an in-line water heater but not a water softener?
I'm just trolling here. No actually I would never buy one of these, as gas is the only viable solution for water heating, after the sun of course.
But you see, that this new construction has some unresolved issues, I pointed out.
 

Offline madshaman

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Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2014, 05:25:04 AM »

OK, I will just tell it to the landlord. He will probably jump with joy to install one for me.
How is it that you're in a position to install an in-line water heater but not a water softener?
I'm just trolling here. No actually I would never buy one of these, as gas is the only viable solution for water heating, after the sun of course.

Omg, thank-you for freaking saying it; for an engineering forum, this should be obvious.
To be responsible, but never to let fear stop the imagination.
 


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