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Electronics => Crowd Funded Projects => Topic started by: ivaylo on October 14, 2016, 04:57:21 am

Title: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: ivaylo on October 14, 2016, 04:57:21 am
...you get this https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable)

It was a matter of time, I guess. I see many broken LPs in your future...
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: 2N3055 on October 14, 2016, 05:07:28 am
And what about magnetic cartridge picking up that 2 Tesla magnetic field..... |O :palm:
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: rob77 on October 14, 2016, 05:29:40 am
And what about magnetic cartridge picking up that 2 Tesla magnetic field..... |O :palm:

piezo-cartridge !  :-DD

Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: PA0PBZ on October 14, 2016, 05:47:05 am
I'm trying to imagine how long it will take till this thing is running at a steady RPM... 30 minutes?
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: rob77 on October 14, 2016, 09:06:53 am
I'm trying to imagine how long it will take till this thing is running at a steady RPM... 30 minutes?

i'm rather wondering how will it maintain it's stable speed.. servo drive is not possible with such a loose coupling... and to do it with inertia you would have to levitate some serious mass there (5kg or even more).
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 14, 2016, 12:43:06 pm
I have to say it's rather...

Hideous! I hate that fake wood crap, it looks like disgusting 70's cabinets or something! They should have totally gone with brushed chrome! :rant:

And on top of that...what if...

*aaaaaHHHHH-CHOO!*
*Imbalance*
*SNAP! Flings disc across the room like a frisbee...right into the dirty cat litter box in the corner of your appartment* >:D
"nnnnNNNNOOOOOOOO!"

Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: T3sl4co1l on October 14, 2016, 05:40:56 pm
Can be done with any everyday VFD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWTXgQ_IdtI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWTXgQ_IdtI)

Tim
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: onesixright on October 14, 2016, 06:47:25 pm
Fun aside. Is this really gonna work (find it hard to imagine)? I have no experience with mag lev, but looking at Dave's video about the DeLorean :-/

Is it not nearly to impossible to get a steady rotation via maglev? And doesn't kick starter requires a working prototype / POC ?

Dave, any change you would like to elaborate on this (they do ask for some serious dough!) ? :-)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: rob77 on October 14, 2016, 06:48:19 pm
Can be done with any everyday VFD:

but it has to levitate the disc and compensate for any forces trying to knock the disk of balance and provide a jitter-free rock-solid drive at the same time...  so i'm afraid it won't be that easy as using an existing VFD.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2016, 06:55:15 pm
Jesus H. Christ
That has to win the Golden Wank award, surely?
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: rollatorwieltje on October 14, 2016, 07:26:49 pm
Lol, huge magnetic field near a record player... They even advertise they are using a Moving Magnet cartridge... That will be an epic failure...

Also funny how "semi automatic" is a selling point. There are plenty of fully automatic record players available, it isn't that hard. I have an old Dual 601 that's fully automatic, it even has a repeat function.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: helius on October 14, 2016, 07:42:03 pm
Quote from: rollatorwieltje
Also funny how "semi automatic" is a selling point. There are plenty of fully automatic record players available, it isn't that hard. I have an old Dual 601 that's fully automatic, it even has a repeat function.
Fully automatic turntables from the old days put mechanical pressure against the tone arm as the unload switch gets pressed in. It can cause visible damage to the inner tracks after repeated plays. Semi-automatic is definitely better than fully automatic.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: T3sl4co1l on October 14, 2016, 08:16:17 pm
Can be done with any everyday VFD:

but it has to levitate the disc and compensate for any forces trying to knock the disk of balance and provide a jitter-free rock-solid drive at the same time...  so i'm afraid it won't be that easy as using an existing VFD.

If it's (DC) magnetically levitated, that may be true (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earnshaw%27s_theorem).  AC fields don't suffer the same drawback: conductors are diamagnetic at AC.  One consequence is that a rotating magnetic field induces spin in conducting materials; another is that levitation is stable (downside: things get hot, unless they are superconductors).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txmKr69jGBk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txmKr69jGBk)

Tim
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on October 14, 2016, 08:23:14 pm
This has so much fail I can only conclude it's a scam. The video is so laughable as to support this.
I would be highly surprised if this is even possible with acceptable performance as pictured, at ANY price.

How do you keep it centered accurately enough, at that distance (Inverse square law is a bitch). The tiniest eccentricity or horizontal motion will cause audible pitch fluctuation.

It will fail.


 
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2016, 08:34:13 pm
Fun aside. Is this really gonna work (find it hard to imagine)? I have no experience with mag lev, but looking at Dave's video about the DeLorean :-/
Is it not nearly to impossible to get a steady rotation via maglev? And doesn't kick starter requires a working prototype / POC ?
Dave, any change you would like to elaborate on this (they do ask for some serious dough!) ? :-)

It's doomed to failure, I'm fairly sure.
To get the plate/record spinning at a fixed RPM is hard enough, but to do that without wobble (some induced by the arm obviously) has got to be trickiest more fragile system I can imagine. The wow and flutter is going to be horrendous. I can't imagine how audiophiles would not be aware of this. But of course they are blinded by the wow factor (no pun intended) of the levitation.
The best audiophool turntables have huge mass plates for this very reason.

(http://dagogo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/gwtt3.jpg)
http://dagogo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/AMG-Viella-3.jpg
(http://dagogo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ClearaudioInnovationWood-1.jpg)
(http://www.musicstack.com/guide-to-collecting-vinyl-records/images/top-10-most-expensive-turntables4.jpg)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2016, 08:41:14 pm
This has so much fail I can only conclude it's a scam. The video is so laughable as to support this.

Note the very carefully selected close camera framing when placing the record on the platter. They won't ever show you a wide continuous shot of actually placing a record on the  platter and then putting the arm on it and then starting it. There is a reason for that...

A phenomenal amount of effort has gone into the video and the photos and the campaign. It's very slick snake oil.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: rollatorwieltje on October 14, 2016, 08:44:26 pm
Quote from: rollatorwieltje
Also funny how "semi automatic" is a selling point. There are plenty of fully automatic record players available, it isn't that hard. I have an old Dual 601 that's fully automatic, it even has a repeat function.
Fully automatic turntables from the old days put mechanical pressure against the tone arm as the unload switch gets pressed in. It can cause visible damage to the inner tracks after repeated plays. Semi-automatic is definitely better than fully automatic.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this? Semi-automatic units (like this kickstarter) also automatically lift the tone arm at the end of the record using some switch arrangement. You're saying that the automatic return mechanism puts extra strain on the tone arm? On my Dual the automatic start/return mechanism only engages when the arm is fully lifted, when the arm is on the record it's completely disengaged.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: helius on October 14, 2016, 09:52:38 pm
I think there may be some terminological confusion: to me, a "fully automatic" turntable detects the end of the record by the tone arm's position and triggers lift-off, returns the arm to its rest, and powers off. A "semi-automatic" turntable will keep playing the runout lockgroove, until the user presses stop, when it lifts off, returns the arm, and powers off. A "manual" turntable has no cueing functions at all. There are obviously many variations and combinations: some tables will start the motor if you just move the tone arm over the disc and some won't. The issue I was referring to is when the turntable detects tone arm position with a mechanical gear or switch. This affects the horizontal compliance of the arm assembly and can lead to increased wear.
The problem is fully solved by electro-optical, capacitive, or similar automatic systems, but those wouldn't appear until the 1980s.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: onesixright on October 14, 2016, 10:04:55 pm
Yeah the video looks very slick.

300K and almost ½ way there. Incredible how people like to be scammed. I love the thought, looks very appealing / futuristic, but a ½ second later you start to ask if its feasible at all.

Now I thought kickstarted wanted a working prototype as proof? As Dave says, video is very well crafted. So a smartly edited video is all it takes?  Why there is not a simple fraud flag, so kickstarter investigates?

Its a a-shame, i love the thought of crowded funding, but these projects give it a bad rep. |O Time  for a crow-funding platform that takes it serious, and shifts the good from the bad.  First a audit, then the a webpage.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2016, 10:14:37 pm
Now I thought kickstarted wanted a working prototype as proof? As Dave says, video is very well crafted. So a smartly edited video is all it takes?

I think so.
Basically the photo and video are real, they have something. Whether or not it actually works or how well it works is something Kickstarter probably don't bother asking. Their rule is basically "no render only projects". It's pretty wishy-washy.
https://www.kickstarter.com/rules/prototypes (https://www.kickstarter.com/rules/prototypes)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2016, 10:16:57 pm
Quote
By using our innovative and patented technology, we were able to achieve not only magnetic levitation, but we’ve also been able to maintain the incredibly precise turning of the platter with sensor regulating software.

if they aren't lying about the patent, then it must be public...
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2016, 10:19:18 pm
This is all you need to know to know they have nothing close to a final working product:
Quote
Risks and challenges
We understand the extreme complexity of this product. Through detailed preparations with a team of individuals who care about delivering the best product possible as well as a team of manufacturers in place, we are positive the product will be delivered on time. We will keep an open policy regarding information, so you as a backer will have a full understanding of the process and challenges we will be facing on the way.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: NANDBlog on October 14, 2016, 10:26:41 pm
Lol, huge magnetic field near a record player... They even advertise they are using a Moving Magnet cartridge... That will be an epic failure...

Also funny how "semi automatic" is a selling point. There are plenty of fully automatic record players available, it isn't that hard. I have an old Dual 601 that's fully automatic, it even has a repeat function.
Not to mention:
You put a speaker next to it, and the magnetic field of the speaker will give you free echo effect!
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: EEVblog on October 14, 2016, 10:27:31 pm
From the press kit:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/devwz6gbwoqjy3y/AAAECpFQHt7iSfzh-WxVLb-Va?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/devwz6gbwoqjy3y/AAAECpFQHt7iSfzh-WxVLb-Va?dl=0)

(http://i.imgur.com/o0GOsr2.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/9eYkXYs.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/pohlYeU.png)
Title: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: timb on October 14, 2016, 10:30:04 pm
Fun aside. Is this really gonna work (find it hard to imagine)? I have no experience with mag lev, but looking at Dave's video about the DeLorean :-/
Is it not nearly to impossible to get a steady rotation via maglev? And doesn't kick starter requires a working prototype / POC ?
Dave, any change you would like to elaborate on this (they do ask for some serious dough!) ? :-)

It's doomed to failure, I'm fairly sure.
To get the plate/record spinning at a fixed RPM is hard enough, but to do that without wobble (some induced by the arm obviously) has got to be trickiest more fragile system I can imagine. The wow and flutter is going to be horrendous. I can't imagine how audiophiles would not be aware of this. But of course they are blinded by the wow factor (no pun intended) of the levitation.
The best audiophool turntables have huge mass plates for this very reason.

Pfft, I can solve that problem! Get rid of the old fashioned moving coil magnetic pickup and diamond tipped needle altogether. Replace them with a tiny macro camera and white LED!

So, the platter levitates off the base and the tone arm hangs over the record as it rotates. Since it never makes physical contact, there would never be any damage to the disk!

As the record rotates, the camera takes successive images (not unlike a flatbread scanner) and software is used to extrapolate the audio data in real time! The software would play the audio at the correct speed.

Seems far fetched, but this method (scanning a record) has actually been used to digitize some *very* old records. If I recall it was the National Archives that did it. There's also a method of using a laser to play back records; the audio quality is supposedly *very* good.

Edit: The 2D optical scanning system is called IRENE and has been used to digitize some of the very first records ever produced, which are over 120 years old! It's actually The Library of Congress that uses this system. There's also an IRENE/3D system for digitizing quadraphonic and hill-dale records.

The laser based playback approach was first proposed in 1972 with a working prototype (LASERPHONE) shown in 1976. By 1986 a commercial version (Finial) was *almost* ready, with a projected street price of $2,500. Unfortunately, that was when CDs were starting to become popular, which pretty much killed the market for a laser turn table. In 1989 the company was sold (and became ELP Japan) and the product went through another 8 years of design before *finally* being released in 1997 for $20,000; 20 years after the first prototype!
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: StuUK on October 14, 2016, 10:30:19 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/pohlYeU.png)
Using plenty of smoke and mirrors there then....
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: cat87 on October 15, 2016, 12:46:48 am
It's amazing what video editing can do these days.
This got my  spider senses tingling from when I read the title.... :-DD
I'm curious how long will it take until someone from the company says something like "despite out best efforts to keep this project going, we are devastated to announce that we have to stop production of this because we now have enough money to buy a house on the Ivory Coast"
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: cvanc on October 15, 2016, 02:31:06 am
Idiotic, ridiculous design.

What's the point of super-isolating the platter from 'the outside world' when the tone arm is still firmly connected to it?
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: rob77 on October 15, 2016, 04:54:02 am
Idiotic, ridiculous design.

What's the point of super-isolating the platter from 'the outside world' when the tone arm is still firmly connected to it?

that will be covered in further development of the product - it will be an off the shelf turntable levitating on Marty McFly's hoverboard :D
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: kc8apf on October 15, 2016, 09:27:01 am
In the only update on their Kickstarter, they posted a video purportedly from an audio show: https://ksr-video.imgix.net/assets/014/108/562/d4ff98747cfcc5dc2c0a33dab58ab1e6_h264_high.mp4 (https://ksr-video.imgix.net/assets/014/108/562/d4ff98747cfcc5dc2c0a33dab58ab1e6_h264_high.mp4).  It might actually work but it's still a bad idea.  Now the platter is moving entirely independently from the tonearm.  How much noise will be caused by the control system trying to keep the platter centered as the needle following the groove keeps sending it sideways?
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: ez24 on October 15, 2016, 10:45:59 am
In the only update on their Kickstarter, they posted a video purportedly from an audio show: https://ksr-video.imgix.net/assets/014/108/562/d4ff98747cfcc5dc2c0a33dab58ab1e6_h264_high.mp4 (https://ksr-video.imgix.net/assets/014/108/562/d4ff98747cfcc5dc2c0a33dab58ab1e6_h264_high.mp4).  It might actually work but it's still a bad idea.  ....

Who would have guessed that Slovenia was a hot bed for hi-fi  :-//

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/09/multimedia-hi-fi-show-ljubljana-2016.html (http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/09/multimedia-hi-fi-show-ljubljana-2016.html)

For fun places to see, looks like a nice place, wish I could go there.

http://wowtravel.me/top10-things-to-do-in-ljubljana/ (http://wowtravel.me/top10-things-to-do-in-ljubljana/)

I would put this in the "maybe" category".

Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Kalidor on October 15, 2016, 07:01:36 pm

i'm rather wondering how will it maintain it's stable speed.. servo drive is not possible with such a loose coupling... and to do it with inertia you would have to levitate some serious mass there (5kg or even more).

This question was asked in the comments, the platter has a mass of 1.6kg
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: frenky on October 16, 2016, 04:27:32 am
In the only update on their Kickstarter, they posted a video purportedly from an audio show: https://ksr-video.imgix.net/assets/014/108/562/d4ff98747cfcc5dc2c0a33dab58ab1e6_h264_high.mp4 (https://ksr-video.imgix.net/assets/014/108/562/d4ff98747cfcc5dc2c0a33dab58ab1e6_h264_high.mp4).  It might actually work but it's still a bad idea.  ....

Who would have guessed that Slovenia was a hot bed for hi-fi  :-//

http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/09/multimedia-hi-fi-show-ljubljana-2016.html (http://www.monoandstereo.com/2016/09/multimedia-hi-fi-show-ljubljana-2016.html)

For fun places to see, looks like a nice place, wish I could go there.

http://wowtravel.me/top10-things-to-do-in-ljubljana/ (http://wowtravel.me/top10-things-to-do-in-ljubljana/)

I would put this in the "maybe" category".

Slovenia already has one of the known names in the turntables world...
Kuzma has been making high end turntables for 30 years: http://www.kuzma.si/ (http://www.kuzma.si/)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: edy on October 16, 2016, 07:04:56 am
Another likely scam... I do not believe they can levitate this object that cleanly and evenly, and rotate properly. For one, the power required will be much higher than needed. Turning the actual record is not going to be consistent. The heat induced in the plate will likely melt your record. Failure on ALL POSSIBLE ASPECTS even if they managed to get something "raised up".  :palm:

Not to mention... a complete waste of engineering trying to solve something that doesn't need to be solved. Just stick a thick glass plate under your f*&king turntable surface, use something with an index of refraction that hides it or lights/mirrors and other special effects instead, so people will think your turntable is floating. Wow. Big deal.  |O   I smell another money-sucking audiophoolery scam, sorry... calling it like I see it until proven otherwise. Remember Skarp? Where are they now?
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: frenky on October 18, 2016, 06:25:54 pm
They have shown prototype in Audio Show Hi-Fi Ljubljana:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1707051 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1707051)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: StuUK on October 18, 2016, 06:28:51 pm
They have shown prototype in Audio Show Hi-Fi Ljubljana:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1707051 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1707051)

Well I guess they are on target to reach their goal, then we'll just have to wait and see what gets delivered or not....
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: edy on October 19, 2016, 02:23:32 pm
They have shown prototype in Audio Show Hi-Fi Ljubljana:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1707051 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1707051)

Well I guess they are on target to reach their goal, then we'll just have to wait and see what gets delivered or not....

That has got to be some video special effects. Notice how all the videos have a very smooth choreographed sequence of movement. Even the photo shoot picture at the top of this page (a few posts ago) show the camera on a special track/arm so they can repeat the same camera motion and once in Video software they can composite the frames and do some nice editing to create the illusion of the gap.

Why not slip a piece of string under the turn-table platter from one side to the other? Surely that won't affect the magnetic field at all? Why not remove the platter and balance it back on? What happens if there is a power failure? Your platter falls? All of these demonstrations could surely put all of our questions at ease, which their backers have been asking them on Kickstarter comments... yet they fail to deliver any demonstration on video other than a well-choreographed smooth sequence always showing the same angles.

How does this floating mass have absolutely NO wobble at all, despite the needle sitting on it (which would introduce some weight and drag) or when the needle is being moved from one track to the other? The center of the spindle is absolutely stationary on it's axis, and the record turns perfectly at a consistent speed.

If they managed to pull off such a feat, wasting this technology on playing records is the last thing they need to do! It could have applications in a huge number of much more important industries! However, at this point it is just too incredible to believe. I have to see if this thing is real and if they can actually deliver, it is definitely incredible but just too good to be true (you know the saying). Honestly I don't even care about playing a record on this... just having that kind of control and stability to spin a levitating platter is an accomplishment. I can use a regular turntable to play records just as well, without all this added audiophile visual porn. 
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: frenky on October 19, 2016, 05:30:18 pm
Video was probably made with steadicam (http://www.aputure.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Wondlan_Leopard_IV_Deluxe_Camera_Steadicam_Stabilizer-500x500.jpg)... I had it on my wedding too... ;D

I realy don't believe that this is a scam and they are using video special effects...
If they are this will be lifetime embarrassment for them and their families because Slovenia is so small (2 mio people) and everybody knows someone that knows them...
And all Slovenian newspapers are writing about it and the team behind it.

Too bad I did not attend this Hi-Fi show because I work in Ljubljana.

Some photos from media presentation for press:
(http://www.delo.si/assets/media/picture/20161012/sz5_Delo_Foto-20161012122633-94336100.jpeg)
(http://static.primorske.si/foto/lowres/GnWeb/G2.jpg)
(http://static.primorske.si/foto/lowres/GnWeb/G1.jpg)
(http://static.primorske.si/foto/lowres/GnWeb/G3.jpg)

I have also found a bit more info about this thing...

The rotation platform sits on 3 sticks when powered off. When you apply the power this "landing gear" retracts into the base.
And there is also a battery inside so that in case of power failure platform does not fall down.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: frenky on October 19, 2016, 06:13:56 pm
They have posted another demo video:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1709243 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1709243)

Now I'm 100% they have a real prototype at hand.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: rob77 on October 19, 2016, 11:16:10 pm
ok seems somewhat believable... but still i would like to see someone to stick a sheet of paper underneath the levitating disc while it's in operation and also to see what happens when you gives it a bump (tone arm lifted up of course to not damage the record) - how it react and how quickly it stabilizes. in both videos they are showing the levitating disc against a white wall - so it would be hard to see if there is a transparent supporting column ;)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: frenky on October 19, 2016, 11:40:05 pm
If they had a transparent support for levitating disc, then there would be no need for "landing" gear which supports disc when device is powered off...
So I believe we can rule that out...
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: rob77 on October 20, 2016, 12:02:49 am
If they had a transparent support for levitating disc, then there would be no need for "landing" gear which supports disc when device is powered off...
So I believe we can rule that out...
if i would like to fake it, then  i would implement a transparent column along with the "landing gear" ;) ... so still would like to see someone to slide a nonmagnetic sheet under the disc (paper, pvc... whatever) while it's in operation and also see the reaction to bump.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: StuUK on October 20, 2016, 12:54:53 am
So they've reached their goal...

I could not find any patents in any of the teams names except this one:-

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwiI457EgefPAhXqI8AKHV9uC7IQFggjMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.uspto.gov%2Fweb%2Fpatents%2Fpatog%2Fweek35%2FOG%2Fhtml%2F1429-5%2FUSD0764869-20160830.html&usg=AFQjCNGPLsMIQWFDwb4sKis_Jzj5xyi_rA&bvm=bv.135974163,d.ZGg (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwiI457EgefPAhXqI8AKHV9uC7IQFggjMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.uspto.gov%2Fweb%2Fpatents%2Fpatog%2Fweek35%2FOG%2Fhtml%2F1429-5%2FUSD0764869-20160830.html&usg=AFQjCNGPLsMIQWFDwb4sKis_Jzj5xyi_rA&bvm=bv.135974163,d.ZGg)

For a Coffee Mug set.....
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: onesixright on October 22, 2016, 06:59:50 am
They have posted another demo video:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1709243 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1709243)

Now I'm 100% they have a real prototype at hand.

Interesting video.

When you listen just before the 2 min. mark you can hear the change in speed, which would indicate the platter is changing speed ...
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: edy on October 22, 2016, 01:48:49 pm
Nice video, but show me a string loop going around the platform or someone disturbing or lifting it off the base. Or maybe the startup sequence when device is powered on and we are supposed to see the platform rise up and then the pins retract and it hovers. I'm still not convinced given the facts thus far... but if true, I will be the first to congratulate them, for making something look awesome but otherwise completely unnecessary (sorry, I grew up on LP's, cassettes, CD's, but have never looked back since my music was put on digital memory).

By the way, I found this on YouTube which seems to be trying to accomplish a similar task, although much simpler and purely passive with no need for power:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74F7odDKL4Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74F7odDKL4Y)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: rob77 on October 23, 2016, 02:15:21 am
By the way, I found this on YouTube which seems to be trying to accomplish a similar task, although much simpler and purely passive with no need for power:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74F7odDKL4Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74F7odDKL4Y)


that's basically a "magnetic spring" to dampen vibrations - but the design allows that only in 1 axis...

Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 23, 2016, 02:56:24 am
I bet it does work, but they don't want to show you the startup because I bet it's incredibly fiddly. They don't want to show you that the first time you try to use it, it may throw throw the platter across the room.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: ez24 on October 23, 2016, 04:34:02 am
I bet it does work, but they don't want to show you the startup because I bet it's incredibly fiddly. They don't want to show you that the first time you try to use it, it may throw throw the platter across the room.
My exact thought.  This is why they need money, to solve these engineering challenges (maybe).
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Don Hills on October 23, 2016, 12:14:54 pm
... Or maybe the startup sequence when device is powered on and we are supposed to see the platform rise up and then the pins retract and it hovers. ...

The levitation is by permanent magnets, just like the DeLorean model. The supports that rise up are to hold the platter in the "suspended" position while you change the record. Without them, you'd likely knock the platter out of its stable position, with great likelihood of damage. The power is just to generate a rotational field to rotate the platter. As the video showed, it's hard to get enough coupling to hold the rotational speed constant.

There are other toys / models that use the same principle. I once spent a frustrating afternoon playing with a model globe of the world over a base. It  took me an average of 20 minutes to get a successful balance, and as you see in Dave's DeLorean video it comes down with some force as the magnets attract each other. I don't hold out much hope of the tonearm and cartridge surviving.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: bitslice on October 23, 2016, 12:50:52 pm
Two opposing forces here:
1. Trying to isolate vibration by levitating it.
2. Putting it in the same room as dual kilowatt linear motors designed to shift large amounts of air very quickly.

It may well look as stable as a frisbee, but it's going to bounce around within that spot - and since a vinyl record pick-up is measuring minute sideways movement, it's inevitably going to additively measure the delayed response of those speakers.

It's probably got a resonant frequency that's going to be audible too.

Looks cool though, if I were rich I'd buy three.

Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: edy on October 24, 2016, 04:36:08 am

Looks cool though, if I were rich I'd buy three.


You might have to, because if what you are saying is correct, the average user may destroy one fairly quickly as it is too fidgety.  :-DD If you accidentally have the platform lose balance, off it will fly or crash down hard on the magnets, risking both your vinyl and your stylus.

Sure it looks cool until your recordings get destroyed. In that case, just have a sacrificial record on infinite loop and crap stylus and play the recording off an iPod hidden behind it ... your guests will be impressed by the visuals but will never know.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: ez24 on October 24, 2016, 12:49:54 pm
Sure it looks cool until your recordings get destroyed. In that case, just have a sacrificial record on infinite loop and crap stylus and play the recording off an iPod hidden behind it ... your guests will be impressed by the visuals but will never know.

I wonder if they are reading these posts because if they cannot get it working they could do as you say.  They could offer a refund or include an iPod.  Really good idea.  :-+
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 24, 2016, 03:05:09 pm
Sure it looks cool until your recordings get destroyed. In that case, just have a sacrificial record on infinite loop and crap stylus and play the recording off an iPod hidden behind it ... your guests will be impressed by the visuals but will never know.

I wonder if they are reading these posts because if they cannot get it working they could do as you say.  They could offer a refund or include an iPod.  Really good idea.  :-+

This would never work. Audiophools would immediately hear the difference between a record and the obselete iPod and banish you from the audiophool community. :-DD
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: edy on October 25, 2016, 11:28:54 am
If they record a time-signal in the sacrificial vinyl, it can be used to control the MP3 playback position and speed, and they can add static pops as well, simulating the playback more convincingly.  :-DD
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 26, 2016, 03:53:00 am
If they record a time-signal in the sacrificial vinyl, it can be used to control the MP3 playback position and speed, and they can add static pops as well, simulating the playback more convincingly.  :-DD

Completely the opposite, high end phonographs have very little hiss. There are even compressed disc formats and stuff that are used for high end records (see techmoan's channel). It's like comparing the shitty little DAC in the stupid iphone lightning port earphones to a Dolby Digital surround system.

Which brings us to the point, that we haven't actually seen what's inside. For all we know it could be full of crap. :-//
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: edy on October 26, 2016, 04:02:41 am
Right... so aside from looking "cool", do we know for a fact that this "levitating" design actually improves the sound quality at all? Is it supposed to dampen the vinyl surface/stylus from external vibrations coming from the floor/platform it is sitting on, but what about the platform actually moving now because of air vibrations? What about the magnetic fields surrounding the device? What about any slight wobble? Is the fact that it is levitating really doing *anything better* other than the "wow" factor, or could it be actually making it more susceptible to numerous other artifacts?
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: edavid on October 26, 2016, 04:10:47 am
Right... so aside from looking "cool", do we know for a fact that this "levitating" design actually improves the sound quality at all?

They never said that it did.  It is in fact supposed to look cool.  (It's also supposed to have good sound quality, but they aren't making any particular claims about that.)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: frenky on November 03, 2016, 04:53:32 am
New video on how to use it:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1723738 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1723738)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: rob77 on November 03, 2016, 05:16:15 am
New video on how to use it:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1723738 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1723738)

looks like the guys behind the project were reading this forum ;) ok. i'm convinced now. i wish them good luck with the project and all the best !
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: PA0PBZ on November 03, 2016, 06:08:14 am
New video on how to use it:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1723738 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable/posts/1723738)

Nice! I bet Dave's Delorean could use the retractable feet.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: frenky on November 03, 2016, 06:10:44 am
That's what I was thinking... If they made a hovering Delorian toy they would get over 1mio funds for sure. :popcorn:
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: edy on November 08, 2016, 08:18:57 am
Impressive video. I am glad to see it in action. Kudos for making this thing work. Not convinced it has any benefit on sound quality but esthetically worth the price for people who like the looks and coolness factor!
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Hans Mortensen on November 08, 2016, 08:38:11 am
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/devwz6gbwoqjy3y/AAAbHnMosbDSk1nvvdhKhezia/Press%20release%20text?dl=0&preview=press_ENG_long.docx (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/devwz6gbwoqjy3y/AAAbHnMosbDSk1nvvdhKhezia/Press%20release%20text?dl=0&preview=press_ENG_long.docx)

this seems to be all they are releasing :blah:
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: robinb on December 01, 2016, 11:38:20 am
They say "Air is the smoothest medium possible with the least amount of friction" ... oh I dunno, proper audiophiles will be running it in a tank of pure hydrogen ;)

The whole "vibration isolation" idea is bogus too, the tone arm is still coupled to the base and the platter isn't. So any vibration that hits the base will still cause movement of the stylus, or so it seems to me.

Cheers,
         Robin.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: T3sl4co1l on December 02, 2016, 05:48:29 am
They say "Air is the smoothest medium possible with the least amount of friction" ... oh I dunno, proper audiophiles will be running it in a tank of pure hydrogen ;)

Helium.  The atoms are round, whereas H2 is lumpy.  It will roll more smoothly this way.

Tim
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: robinb on December 02, 2016, 06:41:59 am
Nooo! Helium over extends the upper registers, easily verifiable with a balloon from your local party shop ;)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: timb on December 08, 2016, 11:30:27 am
They say "Air is the smoothest medium possible with the least amount of friction" ... oh I dunno, proper audiophiles will be running it in a tank of pure hydrogen ;)

The whole "vibration isolation" idea is bogus too, the tone arm is still coupled to the base and the platter isn't. So any vibration that hits the base will still cause movement of the stylus, or so it seems to me.

Cheers,
         Robin.

Yes yes, but it looks cool as shit. That alone would be worth it for me, if I had the cash!
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: frenky on October 06, 2018, 06:17:17 am
Lewis (Unbox therapy) got finished product:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUlPN2A_r-g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUlPN2A_r-g)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: taydin on October 06, 2018, 06:45:13 am
You wouldn't want this for the audio quality. You would want this to make a statement to the people that you have invited to your posh party.

But the technology for this has been available for a while, and often used in levitating stands for exhibition. The hard part is implementing the discrete automated control algorithm that reads magnetic field data from hall sensors and controls a gang of electromagnets. The rest is just industrial design.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 06, 2018, 07:09:47 am
He's a sheeple hipster though and he's not the brightest bulb. In fact, he's really dim when it comes to any sort of scientific thinking or background research. He's the guy that oggled over one of those free water machines, so we should never trust him again. ::)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: a59d1 on October 06, 2018, 11:09:52 am
You can complain all you want, but they made it work. Physics is on their side.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 06, 2018, 11:29:33 am
You can complain all you want, but they made it work. Physics is on their side.

:palm:

Of course it "works". But that doesn't mean it's any good. Physics has nothing to do with being able to properly engineer something to be worth buying. I question that man's ability to review a product and determine whether to bother with it.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Marco on October 06, 2018, 11:50:24 am
It's a record player, audio quality is secondary to begin with. They shipped a product only a year late, pretty good for kickstarter.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 06, 2018, 01:04:06 pm
It's a record player, audio quality is secondary to begin with.

Uh oh...Defcon 2! :scared: You've angered the hornets now! ;D

But seriously, a good vinyl sounds better than a lot of that compressed digital rubbish (such as MP3) people listen to nowadays.* However, the quality of the sound as well as how fast your discs will degrade is entirely dependent on your machine. For example, what's the stylus weight on this machine? Since it is floating, is this consistent? What type of cartridge does it take? Is the speed consistent? (I'm assuming it is, as that would be a major fail)

*(when discs are not heavily worn)   
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: ivaylo on October 06, 2018, 04:24:36 pm
The unpacking guy kept talking about impressing people. If you want to impress please play this:
https://youtu.be/GNowLvmIPoo
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: onesixright on October 06, 2018, 05:52:15 pm
I think some of the critics should eat their shoe  :-DD

Kudos to these guys making it a working product (against all odds).

Wetter it’s worth the money (price/quality) is a completely different ball game.  Tons of expensive crap out there. Starting with 10.000 USD cables  :o ;)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: TERRA Operative on October 06, 2018, 09:32:21 pm
Someone has to send one to Techmoan so he can test it on his wow and flutter meter.

Or send one to me and I'll pick up that surplus wow and flutter meter I saw in Akihabara. :D
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: taydin on October 07, 2018, 06:55:02 am
Once the hard part, which is to keep the metal plate floating stable, is taking care of, the rest is the same that needs to be done for other record players. Keeping a constant speed isn't that hard, because the plate is heavy, so it will resist rapid speed changes. You only have to correct for slow changes.

So this record player will not be better than other record players because of the missing shaft, and it won't be worse, either. Given same pickup head, same speed control technology, and same pickup circuit, it will perform the same.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: dunkemhigh on October 08, 2018, 02:48:02 am
Surely a decent tester would have given the turntable a nudge (horizontally and vertically) pretty early on. And banged the table with something reasonably heavy and solid. Pretty pointless 'listening' to the thing third hand via a flaky broadband connection.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: snoopy on October 25, 2018, 12:04:04 am
I think some of the critics should eat their shoe  :-DD

Kudos to these guys making it a working product (against all odds).

Wetter it’s worth the money (price/quality) is a completely different ball game.  Tons of expensive crap out there. Starting with 10.000 USD cables  :o ;)

It's a silly idea. Saw one of these in operation recently. It takes a couple of minutes to change a record and the platter is susceptible to eccentricity causing the same effect as playing a warped record. Just a gimmick.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 25, 2018, 01:15:41 am
I think some of the critics should eat their shoe  :-DD

Kudos to these guys making it a working product (against all odds).

Wetter it’s worth the money (price/quality) is a completely different ball game.  Tons of expensive crap out there. Starting with 10.000 USD cables  :o ;)

It's a silly idea. Saw one of these in operation recently. It takes a couple of minutes to change a record and the platter is susceptible to eccentricity causing the same effect as playing a warped record. Just a gimmick.

If it wobbles than it's gonna sound like crap and wear out your records. Verdict: USELESS GARBAGE If you want a novelty to play worn out records with the last few times, get a record car.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: ebastler on October 26, 2018, 06:47:31 am
Surely a decent tester would have given the turntable a nudge (horizontally and vertically) pretty early on. And banged the table with something reasonably heavy and solid. Pretty pointless 'listening' to the thing third hand via a flaky broadband connection.

Just look at the wobble of that platter in the video, even without nudging it.
Not convinced...
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: onesixright on October 26, 2018, 06:58:25 am
Surely a decent tester would have given the turntable a nudge (horizontally and vertically) pretty early on. And banged the table with something reasonably heavy and solid. Pretty pointless 'listening' to the thing third hand via a flaky broadband connection.

Just look at the wobble of that platter in the video, even without nudging it.
Not convinced...

For crying out loud. I think everybody agrees that it's not high end (hifi wise). Is it so hard to admit it looks darn cool? They got lot of flak of being a scam and it would never happen, but they did procedure a working turntable...

There is lots of stuf looking cool, but useless. There is worse shit to watch on YT imo.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: ebastler on October 26, 2018, 07:16:43 am
For crying out loud. I think everybody agrees that it's not high end (hifi wise). Is it so hard to admit it looks darn cool? They got lot of flak of being a scam and it would never happen, but they did procedure a working turntable...

There is lots of stuf looking cool, but useless. There is worse shit to watch on YT imo.

If it wants to look cool, it should not look woobly, but should be floating nice and smooth and steady. And the ridiculous noise of those pins being driven up or down does not help either. For $2600 there must be a way to convey a feeling of quality there.

(Or maybe it was just the guy's stupid hat which took away from the quality feeling?  :P
Can't blame the Mag Lev guys for that bit...)
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: GregDunn on October 26, 2018, 11:25:33 am
Why are people even wasting their time and money on LP playback these days?  We've had the superior format (CD) for almost 30 years, and voluminous digital storage for nearly 20 where you're not even limited to a fixed resolution.  Seeing people spend thousands of dollars on turntables (not to mention 10% distortion triode amplifiers) convinces me that evolution has taken a 180° turn in the audio world.
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 26, 2018, 12:25:08 pm
Why are people even wasting their time and money on LP playback these days?  We've had the superior format (CD) for almost 30 years, and voluminous digital storage for nearly 20 where you're not even limited to a fixed resolution.  Seeing people spend thousands of dollars on turntables (not to mention 10% distortion triode amplifiers) convinces me that evolution has taken a 180° turn in the audio world.

Not going to get into the whole debate, you can google it. But if any amp has 10% distortion, it's just plain broken. ::) :-BROKE
Title: Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 27, 2018, 03:29:22 am
Why are people even wasting their time and money on LP playback these days?  We've had the superior format (CD) for almost 30 years, and voluminous digital storage for nearly 20 where you're not even limited to a fixed resolution.  Seeing people spend thousands of dollars on turntables (not to mention 10% distortion triode amplifiers) convinces me that evolution has taken a 180° turn in the audio world.

I don't think this is a turn per se. While technology has constantly evolved in the audio field, it seems to have reached a state in the 70's which a significant number of people consider as the epitome of audio gear. Audio devices are still evolving with modern technology, but this 70's base technology is still there in parallel. Not really a turn, more like a parallel path which is still alive.

The why is hard to completely explain rationally. But whereas there's a lot of scam in the audiophool world (awfully expensive stuff that makes practically no difference), this particular branch has something different. Tube-based amplifiers and vinyl record turntables *objectively* sound different from digital audio and solid-state amplifiers. This difference is what some amateurs are after. On a purely technical level, most of those differences translate to degraded characteristics (higher distortion for instance), but tend to sound more pleasing to some ears. We don't listen to music with an R&S analyzer in our head. ;D

Of course, there is also the "upscale" factor that comes into play, just like buying a Rolex.