Author Topic: Kickstarter: Wirebutter  (Read 16145 times)

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Offline rthorntnTopic starter

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Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« on: November 08, 2016, 11:27:15 pm »
Hi,

I'm a bit of a beginner with electronics, does this project look feasible:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2120665567/wirebutter-smart-powerboard/

Red flags around all the testing and certification costs to work with mains power in a bunch of countries would probably cost a lot more than the A$59K target?

Thanks.

Richard
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2016, 12:01:18 am »
$165 for a 4-channel energy measurement system plus a whatever 2.4GHz wireless module? No, thanks. I can build one for $50.

Easy for you to say, but can you buy one for $50? What it'd cost you or I to whip one up for has little to do with what's a reasonable retail price.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2016, 12:03:09 am »
Not speaking to the validity of the product (I just scrolled through the page and looked at the pictures).

$165 is not a bad price. You can't do it cheaper with similar slick industrial design and proposed apps.

They won't need FCC certification if they use off the shelf certified modules. There is a problem if you use more than one at a time, but it resolvable much cheaper than full-blown certification.

I don't know if they will actually need UL certification for KS type of product. And KS can be used to actually kick start the real product.

They still ask too little. There is no way they can order injection molded parts for all country variations for  $45k.

PS: Yeah, and the whole idea of smart socket with iPhone app is kind of stupid, but so is most of the newly invented stuff.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 12:06:05 am by ataradov »
Alex
 

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2016, 12:07:09 am »
excluding PCB prototyping service and my time cost.
And if you include that, you will get a number way higher than $170. That's the point of having a commercial product.
Alex
 

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2016, 12:12:00 am »
FCC15B test for unintentional radiation
I'm not sure in what cases unintentional radiation actually has to be tested. I think most of the time you just claim compliance somehow.

And KS units can be shipped as prototypes/dev.kits, so they won't need certification either.
Alex
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2016, 12:23:40 am »
otherwise they will be in trouble if someone later report it has excessive radiation.
Well, obviously they need to make sure that it does not actually radiate a lot of noise. But this can be reasonably done in-house.

FCC15 exempts things for ISM purposes, but kits are not exempted unless it is solely for ISM purpose, including hobbyist engineering, which is the gray zone where Adafruit survives in.
I don't see how this thing is any more different than any other form-factor dev. kit. It is obviously shipped though a KS campaign, which naturally attracts people willing to mess with the thing, update the firmware, etc. I really believe this is a valid argument. Plus KS distribution is fairly limited.

When they want to scale this for actual production, they will have to get all the certification, but by that time they will have a very tangible product (or nothing), so getting some financing should not be a big deal.
Alex
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2016, 12:24:30 am »
Easy for you to say, but can you buy one for $50? What it'd cost you or I to whip one up for has little to do with what's a reasonable retail price.

I can buy parts to build one for $50 excluding PCB prototyping service and my time cost.

So your point is that it's overpriced because it, as a complete working assembly, is more than its raw parts costs.

You're beginning to sound like the stereotypical Chinese cousin/Jewish uncle/Indian brother-in-law who can 'get it for you wholesale'.  :)
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2016, 12:35:58 am »
So your point is that it's overpriced because it, as a complete working assembly, is more than its raw parts costs.

You're beginning to sound like the stereotypical Chinese cousin/Jewish uncle/Indian brother-in-law who can 'get it for you wholesale'.  :)

I will either expect it to be fully certified and tested and pay for a premium, or be a hobbyist level stuff with minimal price margin.
A product that clearly won't have enough money to pass all sorts of certification while charging a premium? No way.

That's not where you started from. You started from a dismissive "No, thanks. I can build one for $50.". Not quite the same thing.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2016, 07:11:28 am »
Not sure if they have changed the pricing, or I've missed something, or if you guys are smoking something fun, but the KS pricing _is_ USD 50 right now.



 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2016, 07:20:57 am »
Not sure if they have changed the pricing, or I've missed something, or if you guys are smoking something fun, but the KS pricing _is_ USD 50 right now.

It was $165, and now $65. For such a price it is making much better sense.

65 AUD = 50 USD

 

Online ataradov

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2016, 07:27:51 am »
There is still no way they are getting injection moldings for 4 country variations for $45K. Well, may be barely, but there is other stuff as well.
Alex
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2016, 07:33:16 am »
There is still no way they are getting injection moldings for 4 country variations for $45K. Well, may be barely, but there is other stuff as well.

They are just changing the inserts though, how much can that cost?

The really bleedin obvious thing missing is IFTTT integration
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2016, 07:38:27 am »
They are just changing the inserts though, how much can that cost?
I don't think you can get away with just the inserts. EU and UK models are substantially different from the other two, and there will be a visible seam on the flat surface if you just change the inserts, no matter how good your machining is.

If they could somehow make all things circular with the same diameter, then the seam can go inside the circle
Alex
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2016, 07:47:54 am »
They are just changing the inserts though, how much can that cost?
I don't think you can get away with just the inserts. EU and UK models are substantially different from the other two, and there will be a visible seam on the flat surface if you just change the inserts, no matter how good your machining is.

If they could somehow make all things circular with the same diameter, then the seam can go inside the circle

Yes you are right - going by their own pics the UK version has square inserts and the rest are circular.

Maybe they can get away with two base mouldings though:- UK, and everyone else.

I don't think the visible seam matters - it doesn't matter to Apple as they do the same thing on their laptop adapters.
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2016, 07:54:11 am »
65 AUD = 50 USD

Yes, that's very promising.

One crazy thing with the pricing is that the 2 unit package costs more than double the single unit package.

65x2 = 130 or you can get a bundle of 2 for 160.  :wtf:
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2016, 07:55:33 am »
65x2 = 130 or you can get a bundle of 2 for 160.  :wtf:
That's what last minute price change does for you :)
Alex
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2016, 07:57:12 am »
This looks like just another load monitoring power strip, like numerous ones already being produced in China. In fact, the style of it looks like something which started its life in China. The price seems unreasonably high. A thing like this can be made pretty cheap, as long as the volume is sufficient to amortise the mouldings.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2016, 08:03:19 am »
This looks like just another load monitoring power strip, like numerous ones already being produced in China. In fact, the style of it looks like something which started its life in China. The price seems unreasonably high. A thing like this can be made pretty cheap, as long as the volume is sufficient to amortise the mouldings.

This one has 4 channels that can be metered and controlled individually. Considering the cost of 4 AFE channels and regulatory cost, the price is quite decent.
4 power channels can be monitored for <$1 with 0.5% accuracy. Hardly a major cost.
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2016, 08:03:22 am »
Considering the cost of 4 AFE channels
But those things actually exist in a real world, this one is a fantasy at the moment.
Alex
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2016, 08:05:18 am »
4 AFE channels can be monitored for <$1 with 0.5% accuracy. Hardly a major cost.
Care to elaborate?
Alex
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2016, 08:06:07 am »
Considering the cost of 4 AFE channels
But those things actually exist in a real world, this one is a fantasy at the moment.
Why is this one a fantasy? There are a number of power strips with wireless monitoring and switching for each outlet.
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2016, 08:08:47 am »
Why is this one a fantasy?
Because it is a KS campaign at the moment, asking for a ridiculously low amount of money. If they had a warehouse of 100000 of them, I can see a price of $50, or even $100, if their software is decent.

But at the moment they don't exist. And for them to exist at that $50 price, A LOT more people need to order. There is no "scale" in making 1000 units.
Alex
 
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Offline Kean

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2016, 08:12:14 am »
They are just changing the inserts though, how much can that cost?

Nope, they'll also need to completely redesign all the internal stamped metal parts for the electrical contacts, and also probably have slighly different moulds for the main housings to accommodate those and the necessary isolation barriers.  Also, to me it doesn't look like there is enough depth for the European (Schuko?) pins in their render, so that is another variation.

Then they'll need to pay many times for the various country safety tests, which is significantly more than an unintentional radiator test.  Plus product liability insurance in each country they intend to sell into (They may try to bypass this for KS.)

They appear to have the electronics and software prototypes, and 3D printed samples of the housing, and think that taking it into mass production is simple - e.g. see their reply in the comments re certification.  Although they have electrical engineers on the team, it doesn't sound like they have actual experience with product manufacturing.

Why does it need BT, WiFi, Zigbee, Ethernet, and Powerline networking.  Surely you're better off having them independant for "future proofing".  Also, I'm not a fan of them using metal buttons on a mains powered device, even/especially if it is prototype.
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2016, 08:18:04 am »
4 AFE channels can be monitored for <$1 with 0.5% accuracy. Hardly a major cost.
Care to elaborate?
I'm only talking about the measurement. The power supply and radio stuff would obviously cost more on top of that. There are several ways to provide 4 channels of high accuracy wide dynamic range measurement for $1. What people are currently looking for is solutions which slash that price, and there are some. Just look around the utility metering market.
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Kickstarter: Wirebutter
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2016, 08:20:54 am »
They are just changing the inserts though, how much can that cost?

Nope, they'll also need to completely redesign all the internal stamped metal parts for the electrical contacts, and also probably have slighly different moulds for the main housings to accommodate those and the necessary isolation barriers.  Also, to me it doesn't look like there is enough depth for the European (Schuko?) pins in their render, so that is another variation.

Why couldn't they just use the EU version as the 'standard' base, and then make inserts for the other two options that fit the same socket?

Maybe it's cheaper to not use inserts at all and just remould the base for each country. I'm just taking the hint from the way the renders look on their site.
 


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