Author Topic: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?  (Read 12444 times)

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Offline erandored

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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kurt/noria-cool-redefined

Almost seems too good to be true.  Worth looking into the specs they list to see if the math works.  The price seems really low as well.
 

Offline Photon939

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2016, 05:26:54 am »
Hey look, a crowdfunding project where they actually show some guts of the unit! I think I've been jaded by all the terrible Indiegogo scams lately.

Efficiency and cooling capacity numbers are certainly in the range of possibility.

The main downside I see of this unit is smaller size for a given cooling capacity means increased air velocity. Smaller coils get dirty faster.

The photo of the refrigeration system looks the same as your typical window ac with the exception of a horizontally mounted rotary compressor.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2016, 05:45:02 am »
The only advantages are size and weight.  Conventional window air conditioners cost $100-200 and often have higher EER than this one.  Also, you don't have to wait until next year to get them :)

 

Offline CanadianAvenger

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2016, 05:54:05 am »
Interesting, might be good for some small spaces.

Not a fan of the exterior up-facing vent though. It really should be out-facing, or down-facing to protect the inside workings from rain [and any other falling debris].
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2016, 07:21:15 am »
The fresh air mode is really novel. All of the low end units I looked at did not have that, and it could save some energy, by say activating automatically when the outside temperature drops. As long as it has a good filter on the outside portion of the unit.
The one I got has manually operated mini vent (to prevent CO2 buildup?), but this sounds much better.

I would consider one but it can't be mounted vertically.
 

Online Richard Crowley

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2016, 07:29:03 am »
...kickstarter....Almost seems too good to be true...
That has become rather a cliché, hasn't it?
 

Offline MarkS

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2016, 10:50:15 am »
I went to school for HVAC and have designed phase change cooling for computers in the past. I'm not too thrilled by the design. There are some major issues with liquid slugging from lying a compressor on its side, although not as much with rotary compressors. However, rotary compressors (pictured in the Kickstarter link) are the loudest types, so I'm curious how they are keeping the noise down. Also, the condenser coil is about half the size of a typical 5000 BTU window unit, of which I currently have in my bedroom, so I'm curious how well it will be able to condense the refrigerant. I'm really curious about the efficiency and longevity of the unit.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 11:54:27 am by MarkS »
 

Offline mmagin

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2016, 10:51:24 am »
5000 BTU/hr is enough for a well-insulated bedroom.  It's not much.
 

Offline ez24

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2016, 11:08:19 am »
I'm really curious about the efficiency and longevity of the unit.

So have many others who put up their money to find out:

200@$249

1017@$299

349@$549

43@$825

46@$1099      !!!!!!!!!!!!

Can these numbers be real?  A lot of nuts with money if real.   :-//
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Offline MadModder

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2016, 12:09:48 am »
And it only works with sliding windows. Everywhere else in the world where we use hinges on our windows, it's useless.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2016, 12:25:36 am »
And totally doesnt work if you dont have a sliding window.
 

Offline rollatorwieltje

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2016, 12:52:55 am »
If the big AC suppliers cannot make a window unit small, why whould a random kickstarter campain be able to do it? They are big for a reason. The smallest units I've seen are marine units that use external water to dump the heat into. This Noria thing is about as big as the evaporator of a 5000 btu Webasto, and somehow it manages to also contain the compressor, condensor and fans... Somehow I have a little bit more confidence in Webasto. I'm pretty sure the AC manufacturers would kill for a smaller unit, size is pretty much a key selling point for mobile/marine applications.

Of course you can make a tiny AC unit like they did, but it really doesn't have a capacity of 5000 btu. This thing has about the size of a Vapochill unit that were all the rage a decade ago to massively overclock your computer. Fun in a computer, but you absolutely cannot cool a room with that (well, not significantly anyway). Afaik it had the performance of an average refrigerator.
 
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Offline edavid

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2016, 02:03:36 am »
And it only works with sliding windows. Everywhere else in the world where we use hinges on our windows, it's useless.

It's a 120V only product, and they are only shipping to the US and Canada, so that hardly matters.

(Of course we do have some hinged windows in the US too.)

 

Offline MadModder

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2016, 02:44:32 am »
Yes I know you do have some hinges. ;)
But the sliders are historically the far most common, as far as I 've seen on TV at least.  :P
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2016, 06:48:10 am »
Much lower profile than my setup.  :P



12,000 BTU though. Go big or go home.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2016, 11:03:30 pm »
My father is an HVAC engineer who designed numerous AC and heat exchangers of various sizes for decades. He is actually going to Philadelphia regularly and is still involved in working at plants making coils as he is now based in New Jersey. He is going to do some research and may even be able to talk to the Noria developers. I'll keep you posted.
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Offline ZeTeX

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2016, 04:13:30 am »
Much lower profile than my setup.  :P



12,000 BTU though. Go big or go home.
http://www.ecomfort.com/Goodman-GFC138033100U-3/p56796.html
Go big or go home.
(Don't mind the electricity bill)
 

Offline edy

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2016, 04:53:11 am »
Hi Folks,

This is the response from my father in New Jersey who is an HVAC engineer and has designed small to multi-ton units for commercial to industrial applications for the last 5 decades. Excuse the spelling mistakes, English is not his first language:

Quote
Hi Edy,
I hope you didn't went ahead wit this investment. I did some reverse engineering, using the picture showing the prototype on an working bench, and concluded, the Evaporator couldn't deliver 5000 BTUH. I talk with others in the industry, and come to same concusion. If you must know, all this "window shekers" are made now to be control remote with an Android Cell Phone. I will send you an Email in afternoon, with the engineering figures based on the observation of the photo. I have to run to my Inspection routs.

As of this post, 32 hours to go.... Crunch time. 3,321 backers pledged $1,280,760 of $250,000 goal. It will almost definitely get funded.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 05:10:32 am by edy »
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2016, 10:00:47 am »
Much lower profile than my setup.  :P



12,000 BTU though. Go big or go home.
http://www.ecomfort.com/Goodman-GFC138033100U-3/p56796.html
Go big or go home.
(Don't mind the electricity bill)

That's actually not a bad price for a central unit.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2016, 11:57:50 am »
$1.3M!  :o
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2016, 11:59:29 am »
This is the response from my father in New Jersey who is an HVAC engineer and has designed small to multi-ton units for commercial to industrial applications for the last 5 decades. Excuse the spelling mistakes, English is not his first language:
Quote
Hi Edy,
I hope you didn't went ahead wit this investment. I did some reverse engineering, using the picture showing the prototype on an working bench, and concluded, the Evaporator couldn't deliver 5000 BTUH. I talk with others in the industry, and come to same concusion. If you must know, all this "window shekers" are made now to be control remote with an Android Cell Phone. I will send you an Email in afternoon, with the engineering figures based on the observation of the photo. I have to run to my Inspection routs.

Please do post his calculations!
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2016, 05:39:27 pm »
My guess is it will be underpowered, and maybe too noisy if used on full power.
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Offline ConKbot

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2016, 06:20:38 am »
Tiny little AC unit, tiny evap and condenser both of which will be restrictive to make up for being small, tiny high static pressure fans to deal with the restrictive coils, for 1/2 the cost of my quality 6k btu/hr friedrich unit, and its going to be cheap, quiet, and efficient.

Yeah.  :-DD
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2016, 06:42:09 am »
You must ask yourself. If they can do it for $300, why aren't they around already?
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2016, 06:47:42 am »
$1.3M!  :o

This is another Batteroo.  It's a chunk of money, but nowhere enough to actually execute a project of this magnitude. 

And it does seem that they are likely fudging the Btu capabilities of the unit.  It's less than 1/3 the volume and half the weight of a competing compact air conditioner that is 6000 Btu instead of 5000 Btu.  The laws of heat transfer govern the surface area of the coils necessary to dump the waste heat.  Unless they have some new type of refrigeration mechanism that has a much higher delta T, it's unclear how the cut the size and weight so substantially.

Noria size (5000 Btu):  5.8''H x 18.25''W x 15''D = 1588 cu inch

Fridgidaire size (6000 Btu):  18 x 23.6 x 12.2 inches = 5182 cu inch

Worse yet, credible competitors already exist.  This is the 6000 Btu unit for $280:

http://www.amazon.com/Frigidaire-Window-Mounted-Profile-Conditioner-Full-Function/dp/B00IYQYN82/ref=sr_1_17?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1464986556&sr=1-17&keywords=window+air+conditioner

« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 06:57:32 am by LabSpokane »
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2016, 06:50:56 am »
They could be using deeper coils to get the same surface area, at the cost of higher restriction.

Where I think they're really losing out on efficiency is the way they're bouncing the cold air off the ceiling. A design that would make more sense is to draw from the top/sides/bottom and blow out the front, with stepper motors controlling the vents. Add a PIR array (really low resolution thermal camera) to automatically detect where to direct the cooling to where it's needed. Drive the compressor off an inverter so it can be throttled back to match demand exactly. You'll basically end up with something that works like a fancy Gree mini split, just a lot easier to install.
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Offline rollatorwieltje

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2018, 12:30:57 pm »
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/kapsul-cool-redefined-design#/updates/all

Choo choo, the failtrain is nearing it's destination. Endless delays, renamed project, deleted social media...
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2018, 03:25:44 pm »
They should have called it Kaput.  >:D
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2018, 05:53:27 am »
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/kapsul-cool-redefined-design#/updates/all

Choo choo, the failtrain is nearing it's destination. Endless delays, renamed project, deleted social media...


Quote
TWO: We didn’t want to give you uncertain information without real dates, but we need you to know that there is now NO WAY that we are going to deliver by summer of 2018. We know how flipping frustrated and disappointed many of you are to hear that. We feel it too. I can say that our founders are currently in China working on our factory order and will have an actual, final, very real delivery date when they return and the ink is dry on the page. By or before April 15, we shall release a moment by moment timeline of the birth and delivery of your air conditioner.

THREE: We are really, tremendously, profoundly sorry about being so late. We want to try to compensate and thank you in some tangible way for sticking with us through this saga and making it possible to create the most amazing air conditioner ever built by anyone... anywhere... period. For some of you, we recognize that this is just a bridge too far and you can take no more! We will work hard to help you too. All that said …I’d love your input. Tell me how we can repay you for your support, kindness and trust.
...
P.S. For those of you who are wondering exactly what’s causing all these delays, I’m working on a detailed report of the challenges we’ve faced and how we’ve navigated them. Look for that in a future update (coming soon!) along with photos of our recent adventures in China.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2018, 06:51:44 am »
Yes I know you do have some hinges. ;)
But the sliders are historically the far most common, as far as I 've seen on TV at least.  :P

I don't recall ever seeing a window that wasn't sliding, unless you count camper trailers or old mobile homes. I've been to a number of parts of the US, most of the populated areas in Western Canada and part of the UK and sliding windows seem to be pretty standard. I'm not sure how you'd make a window AC unit for a window that didn't slide.
 

Online Delta

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2018, 07:10:20 am »
And just like Batterooiser, you cannae change the laws of physics!
 

Offline edavid

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2018, 01:50:55 pm »
I don't recall ever seeing a window that wasn't sliding, unless you count camper trailers or old mobile homes. I've been to a number of parts of the US, most of the populated areas in Western Canada and part of the UK and sliding windows seem to be pretty standard.

You've never seen casement windows  :-//

https://www.andersenwindows.com/windows-and-doors/windows/casement-windows/

Quote
I'm not sure how you'd make a window AC unit for a window that didn't slide.

https://www.ajmadison.com/guides/air_conditioner/window/
 

Online james_s

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2018, 02:06:30 pm »
Oh I guess I have seen casement windows, now that I think about it there are a couple of them in my mom's house. They're certainly rare around here though, the vast majority are sliding.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2018, 03:56:04 am »
I found this article but it is a bit old:

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2017/04/18/noria-air-conditioner-kickstarter-kurt-swanson/

It explains a lot about the concerns that it may be a scam, comments from backers due to the delays, reply by Swanson who is leading up the Noria venture. They raised $2.2 million and it seems they are disappearing quietly into the night with all that money.
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