Author Topic: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch  (Read 22010 times)

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Offline ChristopherN

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MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« on: November 15, 2016, 02:25:00 AM »
Just found this: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/smartwatch-powered-by-you-matrix-powerwatch-watch-fitness#/comments

Looks interesting, and might be possible, but I'm skeptical if it's really worth the effort. The power output will differ a lot based on the user geo location and usage patterns.

A Pebble runs for about 7 days, a Withings Steel for up to 8 months. I guess this thing is somewhere in the middle, it has a somewhat fancy display but lacks power hungry features such as live notifications and heart rate tracking.

One interesting thing to note is that this project seems to be in cooperation with Arrow.
 

Offline Koen

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2016, 12:11:37 PM »
https://www.cnet.com/news/matrix-powerwatch-no-charge-claims-to-last-on-body-heat/
It's a shame they couldn't leave a final prototype to the writer for a few days/weeks for him to confirm its qualities. It includes a picture of its current prototype and "somewhat fancy display".

Anyway, you might be interested by Seiko "Thermic" and Bulova "Thermatron".
 

Offline edavid

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2016, 03:07:03 PM »
Scam.

1. It's not possible to manufacture a fancy watch case like that for $100K

2. They can't produce enough power (they even admit it would have a battery inside)

3. You can't measure calorie use that way, and their handwaving over the subject is pathetic
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 04:01:01 AM by edavid »
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2016, 11:27:53 PM »
Haven't even watched the video and this raised a reg flag with me straight away.
Most smart watches get battery life measured in weeks.
Would be interesting to run the numbers on this one.
Granted though, the extremities of the body like the hands and arms are used by the body to radiate heat during high intensity workouts.
I suspect this will be a turkey if you don't exercise hard every day.
 

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Offline rollatorwieltje

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2016, 11:38:44 PM »
Haven't even watched the video and this raised a reg flag with me straight away.
Most smart watches get battery life measured in weeks.
Would be interesting to run the numbers on this one.
Granted though, the extremities of the body like the hands and arms are used by the body to radiate heat during high intensity workouts.
I suspect this will be a turkey if you don't exercise hard every day.

Seiko and Citizen made watches with a TEG in them, they were barely able to power a regular quartz movement. They want to run something with a Bluetooth radio built in...
I wear a stainless steel automatic watch, after a few minutes on the wrist it feels pretty much uniformly heated up. Would be nice to take a look at it with a thermal camera, don't have one myself unfortunately.

Also what's the point of a step counter (this "smart"watch actually doesn't seem very smart) when you're exercising... When you're exercising you're probably not the target audience for a step counter :-//
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2016, 12:01:28 AM »
Seiko and Citizen made watches with a TEG in them, they were barely able to power a regular quartz movement. They want to run something with a Bluetooth radio built in...
I wear a stainless steel automatic watch, after a few minutes on the wrist it feels pretty much uniformly heated up.

This thing likely relies on
a) Serious exercise (likely daily)
and likely also
b) Movement by way of airflow. i.e try using it on a stationary bike and watch the efficiency drop.

They say in the video they have a ton of data that proves it work, which of course they don't show.
Of course it works, so does the Batteriser and uBeam, but the devil is in the practicality.
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2016, 05:05:01 PM »
All,

Not much I can say here off the bat that will convince you since you seem like hardcore skeptics. I can offer a visit to any of you that are interested in learning more about our TEG technology to drop by our lab. You can see a watch build for yourself and other demos we have setup.

Otherwise, I'm happy to answer questions if you're interested.

Thanks.
 

Offline ChristopherN

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2016, 07:13:56 PM »
Hi matrixindustries,

thanks for replying here.

We're all technical people / EEs and like data better than marketing.

Could you provide some real-world test data?

For example:
-TEG power output over a "normal" day with data points for skin temp, ambient air temp, case temp, airflow, ...
-Power usage of your watch in its different operation modes like display only, BLE active, BLE RX, BLE TX, ...
-An output diagram that shows ideal conditions.

Don't get me wrong, I get that this may be confidential information. However, I guess you could silence all critics pretty soon if you provide some hard data. The technology behind this would be very interesting for other applications such as wireless sensor networks.

Thanks
Christopher

 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2016, 09:04:28 PM »
All,

Not much I can say here off the bat that will convince you since you seem like hardcore skeptics. I can offer a visit to any of you that are interested in learning more about our TEG technology to drop by our lab. You can see a watch build for yourself and other demos we have setup.

Otherwise, I'm happy to answer questions if you're interested.

Thanks.

Wait, that's not an appropriate reply at ALL.

Dave above raised a very good point.  You don't mention anywhere in your campaign what parameters this watch requires to work.  Engineers are going to assume there will need to be a substantial temperature differential which could only come about if you were in water, or on a bicycle, or running at a fast rate.

But it doesn't say that anywhere in your campaign, and in the absence of that, non-engineers will look at your campaign page and assume that they can just strap this watch on and their body heat will power it.

So what is the answer?  What level of movement is required in order to make the watch operate?  You need to give an honest answer on this, without hedging or evading.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline hayatepilot

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2016, 11:36:56 PM »
This is total BS.
They want go generate power with the heat flow from your wrist to the ambient? :bullshit:
Lets do some calculations:
The human body loses about 80W through the skin and the surface area of the skin is about 2m2. This gives you 8mW/cm2 of heat flow per area. Not too bad.
But the efficiency of thermoelectric generators is VERY bad.
They achieve about 10% of the carnot efficiency which is \( \eta=1-(Tc/Th) \) . With 10K temperature difference this yields a total efficiency of 0.33%
With the surface area of the wrist of about 40cm2 (very generous) you could expect about 1mW of electric power.

But remember, this is under ideal conditions. If you wear long sleeves, the temperature gradient drops to almost zero and so does the power.
Maybe it is enough for a normal watch, but not a smartwatch with bluetooth, etc.

I would test the power output if I had a peltier element. I bet you it is almost not measurable.

Greetings
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 11:41:43 PM by hayatepilot »
 
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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2016, 12:20:21 AM »
The human body loses about 80W through the skin and the surface area of the skin is about 2m2. This gives you 8mW/cm2 of heat flow per area.

It's going to be much better than that during hard exercise. They body literally shunts masses of blood to the arms in order to cool the body down.
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2016, 12:25:08 AM »
Not much I can say here off the bat that will convince you since you seem like hardcore skeptics. I can offer a visit to any of you that are interested in learning more about our TEG technology to drop by our lab. You can see a watch build for yourself and other demos we have setup.
Otherwise, I'm happy to answer questions if you're interested.

Thanks for joining  :-+
No need for questions, just show us the "tons of data to prove it works" as you said in your video. Real data. Don't dumb it down, give it to us raw if you like, we are engineers here.
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2016, 12:31:50 AM »
Not much I can say here off the bat that will convince you since you seem like hardcore skeptics.

And what's wrong with engineers being skeptical about a product that is hyped to the hilt and that claims to do something well beyond what other companies have achieved in the past, and make those claims without a single scrap of engineering data to back it up? Of course engineers who know about these things are going to be skeptical, what did you expect?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2016, 12:37:50 AM »
And their "Certified by Arrow Electronics" sounds impressive until you read what it actually means:


Arrow just verify that they can get the parts, not that it in any way meets it's performance clams.
 
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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2016, 12:47:45 AM »
And bingo, here's the crux of it:

Quote
The watch goes into low-power sleep mode when not being worn. According to Tham, once it's charged it could last in high-power mode for two years, and in a sleep state "for decades." Of course it sounds too good to be true, but the Matrix watch's Indiegogo campaign is live and kicking, and Matrix intends the watch to ship next summer for $160.

So it can run for TWO YEARS on the internal battery  :o
So why not just stick an ordinary battery in it? or charge via USB? Because, well, marketing.
The TEG part of it is a nothing more than gimmick in this case.

 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2016, 01:06:51 AM »


500uW power generation during exercise.

We can now make some calcs:
- Assuming that's 500uW available to charge the battery during exercise in their best case conditions. (Ignoring DC-DC losses)
- Guessing 1/5 of that during rest, or 100uW. Could be much lower or zero, but hey.

Then:
- Assuming 1 hour of exercise a day for an active person, that's 0.5mWh.
- Assuming 15 hours wearing the watch at rest, that's another 1.5mWh
- Nothing for sleeping because it'll either be off, or under or against a sheet/blanket/pillow etc and will surely reach thermal equilibrium and not generate anything.

So that's at best maybe 2mWh a day of generation.
Let's say the micro and screen and whatnot takes 20uW, so subtract 480uWh takes us back to 1.5mWh a day.

A single CR2032 is about 600mWh capacity, so assuming you exercised 1 hr every day for 365 days a year under ideal conditions (they said  "cold, windy day"), that would be the equivalent to 400 days worth of a single CR2023.
Given this is all ideal, double that number as a ballpark. 800 days.

Conclusion: The TEG charging looks to be nothing more than a gimmick.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2016, 01:20:12 AM »
I do not go to gym but do people really wear watches in the gym? Id think there is possibilities to damage it plus all that sweat and smell. I would not want my watch stink.
 

Offline rollatorwieltje

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2016, 01:44:49 AM »
I do not go to gym but do people really wear watches in the gym? Id think there is possibilities to damage it plus all that sweat and smell. I would not want my watch stink.
Plenty of watches with sport related features, i.e. heart rate, speed, stopwatch etc.
Watches have been water tight since roughly the 1940's. I wouldn't recommend a leather strap when you sweat a lot, but pretty much anything else is fine. Just give it the occasional wash.
 

Offline hayatepilot

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2016, 01:59:01 AM »
There was a conventional thermoelectric watch: The Seiko Thermic.





I've read that it didn't work that well in summer or in tropical regions, since the temperature difference is too small.
Not to mention a conventional watch movement uses only about 1.5uW .

I think one could generate more energy using mechanical rotors (like in automatic mechanical watches) or solar cells at lower cost.
Thats probably the reason they don't make any thermoelectric watches anymore but there are plenty of kinetic and solar watches.
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2016, 03:22:25 AM »
All,

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical, but the characterization is that we're a bunch of fly-by-night marketers. The team has between 5 and 13 years of thermoelectric experience. We're a bunch of geeks like you guys, PhDs in EE, Chemistry and Materials Science.

The Arrow certification was important to us to quiet the skeptics. They reviewed the entire circuit diagram. It was not just a bill of materials scan.

BLE radio obviously requires a lot of current, and that's where the internal battery takes over. Otherwise, your body heat is generating the power for the watch. That being said TEGs can light up LEDs when designed right.

I'm obviously not going to change minds here and so I won't even try. My offer still stands that if any of you want to visit our lab and see a watch build from the bottom up or any of our other energy harvesting demos, you are welcome to. That's probably the only way for you to be convinced that this tech is for real.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2016, 03:34:22 AM »
How about if you tell us what this means:

Quote
Accurate Calorie Count

Your body turns the calories you consume into heat. The PowerWatch accurately measures the calories you burn using our advanced thermoelectric technology.
 

Offline Fred27

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2016, 03:38:26 AM »


The Arrow certification was important to us to quiet the skeptics.

I'm obviously not going to change minds here and so I won't even try.
These two sentences pretty much indicate it's rubbish. You shouldn't be trying to quiet sceptics, you should be confident that you can change their minds. I'm sure everyone here is happy to admit they're wrong given some data to support your claims.
 

Offline Artlav

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2016, 04:28:57 AM »
Just did a quick test.
A 40x40 mm TEG module with a radiator on the other side produces about 200uW after sitting on the wrist for a while. The room is at 24*C.
Sounds like about the right ballpark.

Tried to measure the skin temperature, but the thermal camera shown more or less rubbish at the absolute scale. Realtively, the spot under the TEG was 2*C colder.
Hacking the universe since 2008
Having a life since 2013
 
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Offline Bud

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2016, 04:57:09 AM »
The Arrow certification was important to us to quiet the skeptics. They reviewed the entire circuit diagram. It was not just a bill of materials scan.

Can you please point us out to Arrow's certification service offer description. If such exists i am sure i can find it but with your help it will save me time since you went through it.
 

Offline Stupid Beard

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2016, 05:25:32 AM »
I do not go to gym but do people really wear watches in the gym? Id think there is possibilities to damage it plus all that sweat and smell. I would not want my watch stink.

I don't go to the gym either, but I am a runner. Almost every runner and cyclist I know uses either a Garmin or a TomTom sports watch. That's because they have GPS, heart rate, cadence, etc and are first and foremost aimed at sports. Generally, even those that use other watches the rest of the time will use sports watches while running or cycling. This includes in gyms while using static bikes, but I don't know about other uses of the gym.

To be fair, I'm talking about club runners so people who are pretty serious about running. It may be very different for the casual crowd that are exercising for other reasons, though I suspect that market will be dominated by phones and "fitness tracker" things like the fitbit.

I guess what I'm saying is that during the activities where the most body heat is generated, almost nobody would be wearing a watch like the matrix powerwatch because it is not useful during those activities.
 

Offline Koen

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2016, 07:13:04 AM »
As a side note, what's up with the distributors perks in these campaigns ? Current selling price for 1 is 99 USD, the distributor perk is 100 for 9999 USD so there isn't even a discount and the eventual later MSRP would be 169 USD for 1. Who are the 4 persons who thought : this is great, I, as a business, will invest 10K in a project that may or may not ever see light to earn 20 USD on each watch I do manage to sell after the hype died down. Considering the crowdfunding risk, the fact you're out 10K for a year and the fact you'll be making a loss until the very last are sold at a profit.
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2016, 08:57:39 AM »
There's absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical, but the characterization is that we're a bunch of fly-by-night marketers. The team has between 5 and 13 years of thermoelectric experience. We're a bunch of geeks like you guys, PhDs in EE, Chemistry and Materials Science.

No one said otherwise. A cursory glance at your profiles reveals that.
That does not mean your product is practical though.

Quote
The Arrow certification was important to us to quiet the skeptics. They reviewed the entire circuit diagram. It was not just a bill of materials scan.

Err, the "circuit diagram" is nothing, the entire practicality of this concept relies entirely upon the system engineering of the entire solution. Thermodymanicas, the power envelopes, and the

BTW, who are we actually speaking to here?

Quote
BLE radio obviously requires a lot of current, and that's where the internal battery takes over. Otherwise, your body heat is generating the power for the watch. That being said TEGs can light up LEDs when designed right.

Spare us the LED anecdote, please quantify your answers, we are engineers here, many with vast experience.

Quote
I'm obviously not going to change minds here and so I won't even try. My offer still stands that if any of you want to visit our lab and see a watch build from the bottom up or any of our other energy harvesting demos, you are welcome to. That's probably the only way for you to be convinced that this tech is for real.

Come on, don't give up, just so are the data, some data, anything.
You can change our minds very easily.
Why won't you simply provide us with data?
Are you unable to, or afraid to?
I think it's a pretty reasonable request.
I went through some ballpark calculation before based on your own number, please tell me were I went wrong and why.
And please tell us why your TEG solution is in  any way more practical than a simple USB charging solution.

I'll do an additional calculation to the ones above, maybe you can comment?

Let's say you use the bluetooth until you drain your battery (can you give us the data on that?), and then decide you want to charge up your watch again.
You would have to exercise for 1200 hours straight to do that based on your best case number of 500uW, assuming no losses.
How then is TEG a practical charging solution?

I feel a video coming on...
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 09:09:07 AM by EEVblog »
 

Offline albert22

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2016, 09:45:28 AM »
Years ago I bought a "dynamo" led light and got tired of squeezing the thing to charge the battery. Until I torn it down and found it was a total fake. The battery was not rechargeable and not connected to the dynamo in any way.
just as this one

And that was only two bucks. Please allow me to be skeptical.
Also why I would care to charge with my sweat a battery that lasts 2 years?
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2016, 10:49:11 AM »
Dave, we welcome a video. My only request is that you interview a Matrix team member to hear our side of the story. Also, happy to share our confidential data with you in private. Easiest would be for you to visit our lab, but I take it you're in New Zealand? Maybe we can do a Skype call? Please contact us at [email protected] to set something up. I promise we don't bite.

Also, I think the bigger picture here is that we are trying to get thermoelectric energy harvesting into the mainstream. There are a lot of use case beyond a smartwatch as I'm sure you can agree. We are a small startup and we're very passionate about thermoelectrics especially as it applies to wearables and IoT.

You may think our watch is a gimmick, but we certainly don't. We've spent the better part of five years developing a system level solution for this tech, from optimizing the hardware's power consumption and also the firmware.

 

Offline ludzinc

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2016, 11:03:29 AM »
... but I take it you're in New Zealand?

You bastards fight dirty.
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2016, 11:09:39 AM »
LOL, I have no idea what that means.

Also, should have said, we've spent the better part of five years optimizing the TEGs, thermal engineering, AND hardware/firmware.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2016, 11:10:25 AM »
Ok so seems you ignored my request for help, anyway it was not hard to find Arrow certification offer

https://www.arrow.com/en/indiegogo/get-certified

Just the URL itself says it all. Do i heed to repeat?

.../indiegogo/get-certified

Seems Arrow found a genuine wag to tap into the Indiegigo stream

Still,  and as was expected, they only assess from manufacturability , not from practicality perspective. So no, your watch certification by Arrow tells me exactly nothing.
 
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Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2016, 11:15:10 AM »
Sorry, I missed your comment.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2016, 11:20:34 AM »
Sorry, I missed your comment.

I guess you missed mine too:

How about if you tell us what this means:

Quote
Accurate Calorie Count

Your body turns the calories you consume into heat. The PowerWatch accurately measures the calories you burn using our advanced thermoelectric technology.
 

Offline Carl_Smith

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2016, 12:01:11 PM »
So it can run for TWO YEARS on the internal battery  :o

So they will ship the watch with a fully charged battery and nobody will figure out until 2 years later that the TEG provides no significant power contribution...

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2016, 12:11:33 PM »
edavid, yep missed your comment too.

A direct measurement of calorie loss is by measuring heat loss from the body. You can find more info on your own through a search of the academic literature, which I'll spare you of here. Most gadgets measure caloric loss by measuring respiration, or heart beat, or step count.

 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2016, 12:12:53 PM »
Carl_Smith: the PowerWatch provides more power than the watch consumes when it's worn.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2016, 12:30:22 PM »
edavid, yep missed your comment too.

A direct measurement of calorie loss is by measuring heat loss from the body.
How can you measure heat loss over the whole body from a single point temperature measurement?

Quote
You can find more info on your own through a search of the academic literature, which I'll spare you of here.
No, I definitely want your citations!  Thanks!

Quote
Most gadgets measure caloric loss by measuring respiration, or heart beat, or step count.
Why do they bother with that if your simple thermal method works?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 12:33:33 PM by edavid »
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2016, 12:38:59 PM »
All,

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical, but the characterization is that we're a bunch of fly-by-night marketers. The team has between 5 and 13 years of thermoelectric experience. We're a bunch of geeks like you guys, PhDs in EE, Chemistry and Materials Science.

The Arrow certification was important to us to quiet the skeptics. They reviewed the entire circuit diagram. It was not just a bill of materials scan.

BLE radio obviously requires a lot of current, and that's where the internal battery takes over. Otherwise, your body heat is generating the power for the watch. That being said TEGs can light up LEDs when designed right.

I'm obviously not going to change minds here and so I won't even try. My offer still stands that if any of you want to visit our lab and see a watch build from the bottom up or any of our other energy harvesting demos, you are welcome to. That's probably the only way for you to be convinced that this tech is for real.

If you have actual data, then I think everyone here would be very happy to stand corrected.  It has happened before - and people who were first treated skeptically have been welcomed and found lots of support among the members.

Dave has put forth some calculations which I don't see anything wrong with, and which match my gut feel (and that of other members) - which is that the very best case would be that tiny amounts of power would be generated only with the very best case (cold weather and heavy exercise) and would be dramatically less than if you just plugged the thing into a USB port for literally a few minutes. 

On that basis, the TEG stuff seems like nothing more than a gimmick.  You haven't disclosed at all to your backers under what conditions they can expect the watch to generate power, which indicates you don't want to give out that information.  Why not?

I hope Dave takes you up on your offer - because he doesn't tolerate or fall for BS.  And so far, the "we aren't going to convince anyone so why bother" stuff comes across as "we're not going to fool anyone here so we won't bother trying". 

I would very much like to find out I am wrong on that.  But I tend to doubt it. 

I am also very curious what this Arrow certification is.  I work with Arrow quite a lot - I will have to make some inquiries about you guys and see who you talked to and what exactly this "certification" involved.  You say they looked at the design - are you suggesting they are assuring it will perform as advertised?  That is very much the way you are presenting their certification to your backers, but I am certain they are making no such representation about whether your watch will work as claimed.  I'd like to know what this certification actually involves, specifically.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 12:44:28 PM by Corporate666 »
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Offline Corporate666

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2016, 01:01:22 PM »
Per Arrow's website, Arrow certification" has NOTHING to do with whether the product actually works or does what it claims to do. 

Arrow certification on IGG is:

1) BOM review to make sure you haven't forgotten anything or haven't specified parts that have lower cost alternatives (more likely they probably just want to see if Arrow has any cross reference PN's for items on the BOM they don't carry).

2) DFM review.  Says their team will analyze how viable your product is for manufacture at low cost - their engineers will identify issues.

Nothing about whether the device will perform as claimed or anything like that. They are hyping up the Arrow certification as some form of expert review and stamp of approval of their design (saying it was important to quiet the skeptics).  It is nothing of the sort.  Claiming otherwise is a big red flag.
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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2016, 01:47:12 PM »
Dave, we welcome a video. My only request is that you interview a Matrix team member to hear our side of the story.

Not going to happen, I do my own thing.
If you don't publish public data, that's your choice. I'll do my own calcs.
No secret squirrel stuff.

Quote
Also, I think the bigger picture here is that we are trying to get thermoelectric energy harvesting into the mainstream. There are a lot of use case beyond a smartwatch as I'm sure you can agree.

That's wonderful, and I support that, but that's got nothing to do with the practicality of your product.
Your inability to provide data or answer questions with quantitative answers speaker volumes about the practicality of your product.

Quote
You may think our watch is a gimmick, but we certainly don't. We've spent the better part of five years developing a system level solution for this tech, from optimizing the hardware's power consumption and also the firmware.

That's great, but you are taking other people's money. The practicality of your product will be questioned by engineers.
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2016, 01:48:08 PM »
Also, should have said, we've spent the better part of five years optimizing the TEGs, thermal engineering, AND hardware/firmware.

That's great, but that doesn't automatically make your product a practical idea.
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2016, 01:57:57 PM »
A direct measurement of calorie loss is by measuring heat loss from the body. You can find more info on your own through a search of the academic literature, which I'll spare you of here. Most gadgets measure caloric loss by measuring respiration, or heart beat, or step count.

How does your algorithm account for the autonomic nervous system shunting heat around the body during exercise?
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2016, 01:59:58 PM »
Carl_Smith: the PowerWatch provides more power than the watch consumes when it's worn.

Why can't you quantify anything?
How much more on average?

And given that you have not critiqued my calculations in any way, I'm going to assume that I'm not far off the money.

Also, one question, what is the capacity of the internal battery?
And what type of battery/supercap is it?
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2016, 02:02:09 PM »
Per Arrow's website, Arrow certification" has NOTHING to do with whether the product actually works or does what it claims to do. 

Yep

 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2016, 03:01:06 PM »
Carl_Smith: the PowerWatch provides more power than the watch consumes when it's worn.

Then why does it need a battery that is apparently capable of running the watch for 2 years? 

I had the idea years ago to power a watch of a thermoelectric generator.  But I wasn't planning to power a smartwatch, just a normal digital watch, which requires far less power.  I never planned to make it a product, just hack something together as an experiment and throw a write up on my blog page, because after a bit of thinking I realized it wasn't practical for anything other than an experiment.  It didn't take much thought to come up with all the problems that everyone here has already brought up, like the fact that you usually have only a few degrees temperature difference between skin temp and air temp.  And what happens if you don't wear it when sleeping, or if you do, but it ends up under a blanket or pillow?   What if you are outside in the summer and the air temperature actually climbs up to or even exceeds a person's normal skin temperature?  Or the sun shines on the watch and warms it up close to or above skin temperature?

I find energy harvesting concepts very interesting.  I was amazed when I first learned that someone had designed a light switch that could capture enough energy from just the click of the switch to power up a zigbee radio and send an on/off command to a wireless light controller.   I think we are all prepared to be amazed again if you can make this work, but as of yet you've had plenty of opportunity to provide some hard data to back up your claims and completely failed to do so.  Which leads me to believe that this product is mostly just wishful thinking.

Offline JimRemington

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2016, 03:09:32 PM »
Quote
because after a bit of thinking I realized it wasn't practical for anything other than an experiment.
Well, that was your big mistake. Indiegogo and Kickstarter have shown over and over again that these ideas can be very, very practical for parting fools from their money!

As for me, I can't wait for my Fontus self-replenishing water bottle to arrive, which, fascinatingly enough, works on the reverse principle of the Matrix PowerWatch.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 03:15:17 PM by JimRemington »
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2016, 04:05:12 PM »
As for me, I can't wait for my Fontus self-replenishing water bottle to arrive, which, fascinatingly enough, works on the reverse principle of the Matrix PowerWatch.

Ooooh.  You're onto something there.  Put the two together and you might be able to make an endlessly filling water bottle that always tells the time.

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2016, 08:47:08 PM »
I was close to the mark on the battery:
From: https://www.engadget.com/2016/11/14/matrix-powerwatch-hands-on/
 

Offline ludzinc

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2016, 09:15:34 PM »
... but I take it you're in New Zealand?

You bastards fight dirty.

Accusing an Australian of coming from Kiwi Land is almost as bad as knocking off your mates last stubbie  from his esky.
 

Offline Fred27

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2016, 10:01:28 PM »
Best comment so far, ludzinc. :-)
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2016, 05:01:19 AM »
I agree, best comment. LOL! ludzinc: If you're ever in silicon valley, hit us up, stubbies from my esky on me. In my defense, it's hard to see that extra star below the Union Jack.

Ok Carl_Smith has inspired me to upload some photos. They are a sampling of just a few of our prototypes over the years. I will upload them in chronological order.
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2016, 05:41:56 AM »
This is our very first prototype. The second hand starts to move when worn. It does not have a battery/supercap. We bought the heat exchanger from eBay. It's a laptop heat sink. Not very practical, but very fun to build!
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2016, 05:43:03 AM »
In my defense, it's hard to see that extra star below the Union Jack.

Point your mouse at the flag and the miracle happens.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2016, 05:44:10 AM »
Australia! Need to run, will be back soon to post more.
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2016, 06:20:06 AM »
Here is another one. Do you guys know what heat pipes are?
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2016, 06:24:49 AM »
This is an ugly looking bracelet, but starting to have more "smarts". A LCD display and the Ambiq Apollo MCU.
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2016, 06:28:57 AM »
Now we started to get more serious. Built an actual watch form factor with our TEGs inside. We then interfaced it to a Microview (Arduino based) controller. The box also has a DC-DC boost, coulomb counting, and a SD card to store raw data, i.e. voltage, current, and power. We looked like cyborgs with the watch, box, and wires strapped to our arms while field testing.
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2016, 06:30:55 AM »
In the final prototype, we packed all that stuff inside the watch and go about our day without looking weird. At the end of the day, we would download raw current, voltage, and power data to an app we built. The picture shows the watch transmitting its data to the phone.
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2016, 07:14:27 AM »
'scuse me... How exactly have you managed to pack that huge heatsink and long heat pipes into this small case on the last photo ? :)
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #61 on: November 18, 2016, 07:31:13 AM »
What happens when the arm is colder that the air? Is there any reverse polarity protection? :P

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2016, 08:32:24 AM »
DC-DC boosts can be both unipolar or bipolar.
 

Offline JimRemington

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #63 on: November 18, 2016, 09:36:24 AM »
Quote
Do you guys know what heat pipes are?
Most of us do, and most of us are also well aware that common heat pipes don't begin to work efficiently until the temperature is well above the temperature of human skin, i.e. above the triple point of the working fluid.

Which particular technology are you using?
 
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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2016, 09:44:31 AM »
@ Matrixindustries
Why are you still refusing to comment on my calculations about the practicality of your product?
No one here doubts your product "works", but what is the point of having a TEG charged battery if it takes that battery 1000+ hours of exercise to charge it? How is it not a gimmick?
 
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Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2016, 11:47:36 AM »
Jim Remington, the fluid inside of that heat pipe in the picture is just water. Triple point of water is 0.01C and 6.1 mBar. Water is commonly used in applications where the temperature is between 20C and 100C.
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2016, 11:49:56 AM »
Dave, I’m not refusing, just giving it a lot of thought. You’re obviously a brilliant guy and I don’t want to get into a pissing match with you.

It’s hard to answer this question because how do I encapsulate the last five years of our lives, actually 13 years in my case, in a neat, tidied up answer to a complete stranger? Would a one sentence answer finally settle it? You’ve obviously already read the Engadget article, since you posted it earlier, that had the title, “The PowerWatch is a body heat-powered smartwatch that does very little.” This is our first generation smartwatch and we’re still learning how to improve it. Some people like it, and of course some don’t.

The PowerWatch generates more power than it consumes when it’s worn. But what happens when it’s taken off and left off for a long time? What do you do when you have enough room to add a 200 mAh battery? Do you choose a tiny supercap instead that barely supports the BLE TX, RX, syncing? 

Also we chose to come out of stealth with a commercial product, but in the big picture, we see this tech going into smart sensors for factories and industry, smart logistics, perhaps medical devices like hearing aids. Longer term, this technology, we hope, will help increase fuel efficiency for power plants or automobiles, which we hope would be good for the environment.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that we’re very passionate about thermoelectrics. The most inspiring photo ever captured in my opinion is “The Pale Blue Dot”, when Voyager 1 turned around and took a picture of Earth. Carl Sagan has a beautiful description of it. Voyager 1 is of course powered by a thermoelectric.
 

Offline timb

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MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2016, 12:17:28 PM »
Dave, I’m not refusing, just giving it a lot of thought. You’re obviously a brilliant guy and I don’t want to get into a pissing match with you.

It’s hard to answer this question because how do I encapsulate the last five years of our lives, actually 13 years in my case, in a neat, tidied up answer to a complete stranger? Would a one sentence answer finally settle it?

It doesn't have to be one sentence. You can explain in painstakingly intricate detail if you like.

Or, you could *post some data* to back up your claims! Just throw a zip file of your raw data up and provide a link, we'd be happy to format and process it even. Just provide us with something, anything!

There should be zero reason you can't do that. (Unless you're scared it won't hold up to scrutiny?)

I guess what I’m trying to say is that we’re very passionate about thermoelectrics. The most inspiring photo ever captured in my opinion is “The Pale Blue Dot”, when Voyager 1 turned around and took a picture of Earth. Carl Sagan has a beautiful description of it. Voyager 1 is of course powered by a thermoelectric.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -Carl Sagan
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 
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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2016, 12:34:15 PM »
Dave, I’m not refusing, just giving it a lot of thought. You’re obviously a brilliant guy and I don’t want to get into a pissing match with you.

There need be no pissing match, simply post some data.

Quote
It’s hard to answer this question because how do I encapsulate the last five years of our lives, actually 13 years in my case, in a neat, tidied up answer to a complete stranger?

What's that got to do with anything?
You are taking people's money and selling a product. That product is either useful or it isn't. It's either practical or it's not.
Based on the numbers I don't see your product being either of those things, and you have provided no data or clarification otherwise, just this "we've been working so hard at it, it's our life and passion" speech.
You are not selling that story and asking for donations to fulfill your dreams, you are selling a product that is being marketed in a certain way that makes people think it's useful, when clearly the calculations show it's not.



Quote
The PowerWatch generates more power than it consumes when it’s worn.

I have absolutely no doubt that it does.
What you are not seeing here is that concept is entirely pointless apart from being cool gimmick.
You could have put a CR2032 coin cell battery in there and gotten the same "never have to change the battery" claim. You can buy 10 year lifetime battery watches from Casio and others.

Quote
But what happens when it’s taken off and left off for a long time? What do you do when you have enough room to add a 200 mAh battery? Do you choose a tiny supercap instead that barely supports the BLE TX, RX, syncing? 

Ok, let's look at the bluetooth syncing.
Give us the numbers on how much power is generated per day vs how much energy is required to bluetooth sync once a day.

Quote
Also we chose to come out of stealth with a commercial product, but in the big picture, we see this tech going into smart sensors for factories and industry, smart logistics, perhaps medical devices like hearing aids. Longer term, this technology, we hope, will help increase fuel efficiency for power plants or automobiles, which we hope would be good for the environment.

That's great, but has absolutely nothing to do with the practicality of the product you are taking people's money for.

Quote
I guess what I’m trying to say is that we’re very passionate about thermoelectrics. The most inspiring photo ever captured in my opinion is “The Pale Blue Dot”, when Voyager 1 turned around and took a picture of Earth. Carl Sagan has a beautiful description of it. Voyager 1 is of course powered by a thermoelectric.

Again, lovely rhetoric in place of data.
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2016, 12:42:43 PM »
@Matrix
And you haven't answered my questions about autonomic nervous system effect on the caloric measurement, or who I'm actually speaking to here.
It's clear you aren't going to provide any data either, so I'll just run with the data I have, I have more than enough to make an interesting video. Off to the whiteboard, see you on the other side.
 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2016, 12:53:03 PM »
Bookmark   :popcorn:
Time is the overseer of all things.
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2016, 12:58:59 PM »
No point in sharing our data, which I've offered to you in private. Your calculations are spot on. We look forward to your video!
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2016, 01:25:57 PM »
What happens when the arm is colder that the air? Is there any reverse polarity protection? :P

Alexander.

Most of the time that's not going to be an issue because if your arm is colder than the air the issue is going to be protection from the 330J pulses the paramedics will be slamming through your body.  :)
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2016, 01:39:34 PM »
No point in sharing our data, which I've offered to you in private.

Why won't you share your data publicly?
What can I do with private data apart from keep it private?

Quote
Your calculations are spot on.

Thanks for confirming your TEG powered watch is nothing but a gimmick.
 
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Offline Carl_Smith

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #74 on: November 18, 2016, 02:31:15 PM »
No point in sharing our data,

Uhhhmmmmm,   WHAT?  The point in sharing your data is that we are trying to give you an opportunity to prove that your device works as you claim and has some practical value.  And yet you keep failing to take this opportunity.

...which I've offered to you in private.

This is a public message board, owned and operated by Dave, who is a public figure with a public YouTube channel.   Private is not an option.   

A lot of people immediately think that crowdfunded projects with extraordinary claims are all scams to separate people from their money and run.  When I first happened across this thread I was willing to give some benefit of the doubt and I figured there was a possibility it wasn't a scam, just a lot of wishful thinking that wasn't really all that practical.   But after days of Matrix refusing to post data, requesting privacy with revealing data to Dave, and just sidestepping inconvenient questions, I'm starting to lean toward believing this product is just another attempt at cashing in a quick buck on a product the makers know has no real value.

The only reason to request privacy is that you know there is something in that data that would negatively affect the perception of the value of your product and cost you sales.

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2016, 04:03:40 PM »
All,

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical, but the characterization is that we're a bunch of fly-by-night marketers. The team has between 5 and 13 years of thermoelectric experience. We're a bunch of geeks like you guys, PhDs in EE, Chemistry and Materials Science.

The Arrow certification was important to us to quiet the skeptics. They reviewed the entire circuit diagram. It was not just a bill of materials scan.

BLE radio obviously requires a lot of current, and that's where the internal battery takes over. Otherwise, your body heat is generating the power for the watch. That being said TEGs can light up LEDs when designed right.

I'm obviously not going to change minds here and so I won't even try. My offer still stands that if any of you want to visit our lab and see a watch build from the bottom up or any of our other energy harvesting demos, you are welcome to. That's probably the only way for you to be convinced that this tech is for real.

The Arrow connection is great.  We are Arrow design partners.  I'd be happy to fact check this and quell the skeptics if you let us know who your local sales/FAE Arrow corporate contact is.
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2016, 04:09:12 PM »
We actually work closely with Arrow and the startups they partner with, beyond the BOM check and and maneuverability check they also offer significant design support.  So they very well could have had significant input on the design and practicality. BUT, as I said, share the local sales/FAE (there are many of them in that region) and we'll check it out.
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2016, 04:13:10 PM »
One other thought.  The technology is patented according to the article here: http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20161114005195/en/Matrix-Launches-PowerWatch-World%E2%80%99s-Smartwatch-Charging

So, no disclosure of confidential information necessary.  Just need a patent number to check it out!  The proof that it's all good and legit will be right there for everyone to see. 
 

Offline johndoe123

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #78 on: November 18, 2016, 06:29:12 PM »
it looks like the ces model had some heat sink in the wrist band but the last model doesnt have that anymore, just saying
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #79 on: November 18, 2016, 06:44:17 PM »
It's coming...

 
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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #80 on: November 18, 2016, 07:34:23 PM »
Quote
No point in sharing our data, which I've offered to you in private. Your calculations are spot on. We look forward to your video!
That's quite fishy really. There is no point in NOT sharing measurement data.

I agree that proprietary information (schematics, mechanical design, firmware...) need not be shared, but a simple CSV file containing lots of measurements with body temperature, ambient temperature, outside conditions (humidity, pressure, what the person was doing etc.), total electric power generated by the device, total electric power consumed by the device (and the mode it is in and what is it doing) is not that much to ask. There is no reason to NOT share such data as once the device is available for purchase anyone can do the measurements anyway.
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Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #81 on: November 18, 2016, 07:52:58 PM »
the thing is, nobody is saying it doesn't work, but it's as practical as putting a solar roof on your Tesla...
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 
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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #82 on: November 18, 2016, 08:41:52 PM »
it looks like the ces model had some heat sink in the wrist band but the last model doesnt have that anymore, just saying

Apparently it's on the sides or something now. Won't be hugely effective I'd bet.
 

Offline _Andrew_

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #83 on: November 18, 2016, 09:51:03 PM »
If there on the level the impression I am getting from reading Matrix Industries replies is that for some time they have been developing conceptual devices that are powered by means of waist energy harvesting, in this instance the waist energy is in the form of radiated heat.
The use of peltier type devices for generating electricity is not new, the challenge has always been what useful energy can be produced and how to efficiently make use of that energy. 

In fact there not the only company doing this, I had a discussion only few weeks ago with an individual who has had patients granted for applications employing harvesting waist energy in the form of heat.   

So how far for a reasonable cost can you push the energy harvesting capabilities of a peltier device, and just how efficient are the latest ultra-low energy integrated devices at using this energy. 

A comment that really stood out to me from Matrix is that the PowerWatch is intended to bring their development efforts out of the shadows. So in one sense the PowerWatch is a novelty but it is to prove that they can produce a compact telemetry device that can be powered by waist heat energy from the environment it is in.
Also up until this date how have they been funding there activities, are there already venture capitalists with a grip on any future pie to be had which limits approaching further conventional investors.

Crowd funding is another form of VC which by its nature is with risk and it is important to keep that in mind. What the crowd funding investor hopes to get is whatever the promise of reword will be for their level of investment. In this case a watch powered from energy that is radiated from your body in the form of heat.
By sourcing finance from crowd funding means that Matrix are not having to give up a stake in their business or any rights they own as they would have to do going through conventional finance sources.

Conventional finance sources may have considered there project to higher investment risk for the amount they would have to put in but with crowd funding that risk is divided, so an individual investor is not as exposed as a large single investor. So they may be more willing to take the risk.
Say somebody looks at this and think to themselves that it appeals to them and that they have a belief in this so there prepared to take a gamble and pledge there $139, and anticipate the reward of a working PowerWatch.

If all goes to plan with  IGG Matrix makes valuable income, successfully launches a product, boosts there profile, prove to existing investors that can deliver a working product, open doors to move ahead with producing products for industrial telemetry / medical applications and any other application they can apply the technology to.
For the IGG investor they get there shiny new PowerWatch.

On the other hand if it all goes horribly wrong then the reverse of the above will happen and the IGG and any other investors they have will be out of pocket.

Simple rule with gambling. Never bet with more than you can afford and are prepared to lose.
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #84 on: November 19, 2016, 12:46:26 AM »
If there on the level the impression I am getting from reading Matrix Industries replies is that for some time they have been developing conceptual devices that are powered by means of waist energy harvesting, in this instance the waist energy is in the form of radiated heat.

Actually, it's really powered from the fully charged lithium ion battery when the customer gets it. The TEG just keeps it "topped up" if it's able to generate enough excess.
The exact same watch could have just used a 2032 coin cell (or bigger) and have gotten several years of use, even with Bluetooth LE enabled 24/7.
If you ripped the TEG out of it it would still last for a year or more.
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #85 on: November 19, 2016, 01:48:25 AM »
 |O Your last comment is so stunningly inaccurate and exposes your ignorance. Please proceed!
 

Offline Koen

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #86 on: November 19, 2016, 02:03:42 AM »
Also up until this date how have they been funding there activities, are there already venture capitalists with a grip on any future pie to be had which limits approaching further conventional investors.

https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/silicium-energy

https://gigaom.com/2011/11/04/a-new-name-in-thermoelectrics-silicium-energy/
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2016, 02:52:12 AM »
You told that it could generate 500µW on a cold windy day, but what is cold and windy for you ? 15°C and 20km/h or -30°C and 80km/h ?

What about summer, let's say 30°C and no wind ?
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2016, 03:31:49 AM »
Quote
No point in sharing our data, which I've offered to you in private. Your calculations are spot on. We look forward to your video!
That's quite fishy really. There is no point in NOT sharing measurement data.

I agree that proprietary information (schematics, mechanical design, firmware...) need not be shared, but a simple CSV file containing lots of measurements with body temperature, ambient temperature, outside conditions (humidity, pressure, what the person was doing etc.), total electric power generated by the device, total electric power consumed by the device (and the mode it is in and what is it doing) is not that much to ask. There is no reason to NOT share such data as once the device is available for purchase anyone can do the measurements anyway.

Why do you think that detailed environment related data is any less proprietary than design data? The figures you're asking for would take more time and effort to reproduce, if done diligently, than the rest of the design work put together. It's the data of what heat flow is available, for how long, under what circumstances etc. that is necessary to embark on a design of a system like this. It's rather like saying that you want Ford to publish the thermodynamics data on their new engine where General Motors can read it, while saying you quite understand that the blueprints need to stay confidential.

@matrixindustries:

Can i suggest you provide us with some headline numbers, the sort of things that I'd characterise as performance claims rather than design data. You've already offered two points as far as I can tell:
  • The watch generates more power than it consumes when worn (under unspecified conditions)
  • The best case (hard exercise, cold windy day) power production is 500uW

If you can add a few more realistic points on the power generation curve, and some power consumption figures, we might be on the way to the place where a "back of the cig packet" calculation can show whether this is going to work in most practical circumstances.

Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline JimRemington

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #89 on: November 19, 2016, 08:51:10 AM »
I have a better idea than TEG power: take one of those really nice mechanical watches that winds itself whenever your arm is moved, and replace the watch gears with a D.C. generator. There would likely be enough surplus energy to charge your cell phone battery at the same time!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 10:39:30 AM by JimRemington »
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2016, 09:10:43 AM »
|O Your last comment is so stunningly inaccurate and exposes your ignorance. Please proceed!

Ignorant?
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra347a/swra347a.pdf
A Bluetooth module 24/7/365 takes about 80uW average for a connection 1/sec.
Your watch takes about 20uW, that's 100uW total.
Do the math for a CR2032 or bigger battery.

Your own guy admits it:

« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 11:26:53 AM by EEVblog »
 

Offline Bud

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #91 on: November 19, 2016, 10:28:03 AM »
It's coming...


Try sex,
No need to show the process, just show the data.  :D
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2016, 11:42:13 AM »
Video rendering now, 30 min long.
The lab experiment didn't work that great, basically got no extra power output over static. Must be that pesky autonomic nervous system shunting the blood out of my arms.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2016, 12:00:12 PM »
Actually, it's really powered from the fully charged lithium ion battery when the customer gets it. The TEG just keeps it "topped up" if it's able to generate enough excess.
The exact same watch could have just used a 2032 coin cell (or bigger) and have gotten several years of use, even with Bluetooth LE enabled 24/7.
If you ripped the TEG out of it it would still last for a year or more.

I think based on Koen's post above, as well as this quote by matrixindustries

Quote
Also we chose to come out of stealth with a commercial product, but in the big picture, we see this tech going into smart sensors for factories and industry, smart logistics, perhaps medical devices like hearing aids. Longer term, this technology, we hope, will help increase fuel efficiency for power plants or automobiles, which we hope would be good for the environment.

That it's easy to make some guesses about what is going on.  They got funding 2.5 years back but it doesn't appear that they have brought in revenues yet.  I am sure there is quite a lot of pressure to make the transition from egghead ideas on paper to practical technologies that are commercially successful. 

Smart watches are hot right now, and they use so little power that putting a TEG on one with a battery will obscure the miniscule contribution the TEG produces - so the consumer will never know their wrist watch *isn't* running off their body heat.  And I seriously doubt they will show in the app how much daily power was used from the battery and was regenerated by the TEG.   I watched their video and re-read their campaign page and nowhere do they indicate that the watch will require substantial temperature differentials to work.  It's advertised as a green-type product that captures the waste energy of your body and runs forever on that.  That's not true.

Personally, I consider that a lie by omission and I think that's a really shitty way to treat your customers and a scummy way to advertise a product.  Some people seem to think it's OK to mislead consumers by giving an impression that is very different than reality while taking their money, but a lie of omission is still a lie.

Anyway, I don't think these people have any interest whatsoever in being in the watch business.  I am guessing it's just something to show to investors to indicate validity of the concept... "we sold $300k in 10 days" or whatever.  I think they do intend to make the watch and deliver, but they have to be really careful about it blowing up in their face... considering they've gotten millions in investment money, if they botch this or if customers get it and are unsatisfied, it could make it virtually impossible to get any future investment.  I think what they really want to do is get more funding to pursue their other goals as stated in their quote above... but I am sure there is an imperative to produce something, and for the reasons listed, a watch where the average consumer will never know that it doesn't actually deliver on the claims made was probably seen as a good choice.

And that's also the reason they don't want to give any numbers.  If you had something that worked, you'd be singing it from the highest rooftops.   

This will be an interesting project to keep an eye on.  I can see it going sideways, especially once people get these things and realize that it's essentially just a battery powered watch and the TEG isn't powering it at all.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 12:01:53 PM by Corporate666 »
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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2016, 12:40:55 PM »
The thing I don't get about Matrix is that they are PhD academic researchers. They got their PhD theses by defending their paper, defending their claims. Academics should be used to this.
Yet they now seems offended that people dare question the practicality of their claims?
Heck, we aren't even asking for error bars  ;D
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #95 on: November 19, 2016, 12:52:19 PM »
but I am sure there is an imperative to produce something, and for the reasons listed, a watch where the average consumer will never know that it doesn't actually deliver on the claims made was probably seen as a good choice.
And that's also the reason they don't want to give any numbers.  If you had something that worked, you'd be singing it from the highest rooftops.   

It works, it's just as you say "the battery will obscure the miniscule contribution the TEG produces". And in that respect it's rather clever. People will look at that charging power meter and be amazed they are generating power for their watch (most/some of the time).

The bottom line is TEG's are absolutely pointless in watches. If, like they have done, design a super low power watch (and omit features that take more power), then the TEG is useless because a single coin cell battery could give you YEARS of use anyway, and they even admit this in one of the articles saying it will be two years life on the fully charged battery.
On the other hand if you design a fully featured smart watch with all the bells and whistles that chews more power, the TEG won't provide anywhere near enough power to compensate for what's lost, and it will need some other charging solution.
So the TEG is pointless either way.
 

Offline JimRemington

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #96 on: November 19, 2016, 01:07:57 PM »
Quote
Yet they now seems offended that people dare question the practicality of their claims?
Others have already pointed out that Matrix will never admit this impracticality to their investors, so they aren't about to admit it to themselves or us.
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2016, 03:14:58 AM »
Well my assessment is that since:

1).  They didn't provide any Arrow contacts for FAE or Sales in their area for vetting (not proprietary and no risk) they must actually be full of crap.

2). Didn't share their issued patent number (I mentioned previously a request for the patent so we could "check it out") they must be full of crap.

Darn, I was really in their camp trying to give them a path to demonstrate credibility without risk.
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2016, 03:21:24 AM »
Dave, I’m not refusing, just giving it a lot of thought. You’re obviously a brilliant guy and I don’t want to get into a pissing match with you.

It’s hard to answer this question because how do I encapsulate the last five years of our lives, actually 13 years in my case, in a neat, tidied up answer to a complete stranger? Would a one sentence answer finally settle it? You’ve obviously already read the Engadget article, since you posted it earlier, that had the title, “The PowerWatch is a body heat-powered smartwatch that does very little.” This is our first generation smartwatch and we’re still learning how to improve it. Some people like it, and of course some don’t.

The PowerWatch generates more power than it consumes when it’s worn. But what happens when it’s taken off and left off for a long time? What do you do when you have enough room to add a 200 mAh battery? Do you choose a tiny supercap instead that barely supports the BLE TX, RX, syncing? 

Also we chose to come out of stealth with a commercial product, but in the big picture, we see this tech going into smart sensors for factories and industry, smart logistics, perhaps medical devices like hearing aids. Longer term, this technology, we hope, will help increase fuel efficiency for power plants or automobiles, which we hope would be good for the environment.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that we’re very passionate about thermoelectrics. The most inspiring photo ever captured in my opinion is “The Pale Blue Dot”, when Voyager 1 turned around and took a picture of Earth. Carl Sagan has a beautiful description of it. Voyager 1 is of course powered by a thermoelectric.

Directing this technology toward industrial sensors is a really good idea (people already doing this).  The nice thing here is the temp differentials are sometimes much higher. i.e. sensors mounting on engines, generators, presses, CNCs etc.  In buildings as well it's easier to get strong temp differentials on boilers, HVAC systems etc.

Starting with people is running before walking (dynamic, low and unpredictable temp differentials, etc, etc) so kudos for taking on the challenge :)
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2016, 03:34:51 AM »
If there on the level the impression I am getting from reading Matrix Industries replies is that for some time they have been developing conceptual devices that are powered by means of waist energy harvesting, in this instance the waist energy is in the form of radiated heat.
The use of peltier type devices for generating electricity is not new, the challenge has always been what useful energy can be produced and how to efficiently make use of that energy. 

In fact there not the only company doing this, I had a discussion only few weeks ago with an individual who has had patients granted for applications employing harvesting waist energy in the form of heat.   

So how far for a reasonable cost can you push the energy harvesting capabilities of a peltier device, and just how efficient are the latest ultra-low energy integrated devices at using this energy. 

A comment that really stood out to me from Matrix is that the PowerWatch is intended to bring their development efforts out of the shadows. So in one sense the PowerWatch is a novelty but it is to prove that they can produce a compact telemetry device that can be powered by waist heat energy from the environment it is in.
Also up until this date how have they been funding there activities, are there already venture capitalists with a grip on any future pie to be had which limits approaching further conventional investors.

Crowd funding is another form of VC which by its nature is with risk and it is important to keep that in mind. What the crowd funding investor hopes to get is whatever the promise of reword will be for their level of investment. In this case a watch powered from energy that is radiated from your body in the form of heat.
By sourcing finance from crowd funding means that Matrix are not having to give up a stake in their business or any rights they own as they would have to do going through conventional finance sources.

Conventional finance sources may have considered there project to higher investment risk for the amount they would have to put in but with crowd funding that risk is divided, so an individual investor is not as exposed as a large single investor. So they may be more willing to take the risk.
Say somebody looks at this and think to themselves that it appeals to them and that they have a belief in this so there prepared to take a gamble and pledge there $139, and anticipate the reward of a working PowerWatch.

If all goes to plan with  IGG Matrix makes valuable income, successfully launches a product, boosts there profile, prove to existing investors that can deliver a working product, open doors to move ahead with producing products for industrial telemetry / medical applications and any other application they can apply the technology to.
For the IGG investor they get there shiny new PowerWatch.

On the other hand if it all goes horribly wrong then the reverse of the above will happen and the IGG and any other investors they have will be out of pocket.

Simple rule with gambling. Never bet with more than you can afford and are prepared to lose.

You are seriously misrepresenting the difference and fundamentals of venture capital, investment and crowd funding:

1). Crowd funding is in NO way an investment, no ownership or promise of future returns exists in Crowd Funding. 
2).  Regarding product presale crowdfunding campaigns: There is absolutely a claim and contract represented from the company "for a pledge you will get product X" This is a presale and customers have a legal claim for action to recoup their payment if product is not delivered, just like any other purchase protected by law, the FTC and Attorney General (in the USA).  Wording of the pledge terms would have to be different if it is meant to be a "maybe or we might deliver on our promise", such as "pledge $100 and IF we finish our project we will send you something" vs "if you pledge $100 you will get X"  Note that in the campaign specifically there is no disclaimer, indication of risk, simply assertion, schedule, and product presale.

Unfortunately when crowdfunding presales fail, there is often little recourse (company is rarely capitalize sufficiently to support a legal judgement).  Also, unless a class action is filed, it's not practical for 10,000 individuals who are out $100 to individually file claims against companies.  This is another reason why crowdfunding purchases are risk.  Not because failure to deliver is allowed or legal, but purely because the failure to deliver and legal recourse in impractical.  This leads to a seedy underbelly (particularly on indiegogo) for nasty scam products where companies can sit on the edge of pseudoscience and reality making claims for products that Apple and Samsung seem to have magically missed out on.

Note this post is NOT a dig or criticism of Matrix at all!
 

Offline madires

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #100 on: November 20, 2016, 04:24:37 AM »
And again, another Batteroo. PhDs with years of experience, a lot of promises, a hyped certification, missing data, numbers not adding up and so on. But I think they'll ship their product - with the little nuisance of a missing charging connector, which you're going to need obviously. Better get a watch with a replaceable coin cell.
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Offline edavid

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #101 on: November 20, 2016, 04:48:16 AM »
And again, another Batteroo. PhDs with years of experience, a lot of promises, a hyped certification, missing data, numbers not adding up and so on.
50% Batteroo, 25% uBeam, 25% Energous  :)

Quote
But I think they'll ship their product...
I'm not sure, because it's difficult and expensive to manufacture a custom watch that looks like their rendered images.  Their $100K goal would not have covered the tooling, so were they planning to dip into their VC money?  Or make the watches by hand and lose money on each one?  I can't help thinking reality will set in sometime after the campaign ends.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 04:51:20 AM by edavid »
 

Offline Koen

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2016, 05:10:41 AM »
Could you ask Sharp to produce a custom round memory LCD for < 100k ?
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2016, 09:48:58 AM »
After watching the eevblog video it's clear that the concept could work - i.e. keep the battery topped up, even if does seem completely over-engineered.

Not wanting to share the numbers really does make me sceptical.

I think it epitomises crowdfunding; it's crap that people don't need but really want.
 

Offline timb

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MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2016, 10:16:43 AM »
Dave, I’m not refusing, just giving it a lot of thought. You’re obviously a brilliant guy and I don’t want to get into a pissing match with you.

It’s hard to answer this question because how do I encapsulate the last five years of our lives, actually 13 years in my case, in a neat, tidied up answer to a complete stranger? Would a one sentence answer finally settle it? You’ve obviously already read the Engadget article, since you posted it earlier, that had the title, “The PowerWatch is a body heat-powered smartwatch that does very little.” This is our first generation smartwatch and we’re still learning how to improve it. Some people like it, and of course some don’t.

The PowerWatch generates more power than it consumes when it’s worn. But what happens when it’s taken off and left off for a long time? What do you do when you have enough room to add a 200 mAh battery? Do you choose a tiny supercap instead that barely supports the BLE TX, RX, syncing? 

Also we chose to come out of stealth with a commercial product, but in the big picture, we see this tech going into smart sensors for factories and industry, smart logistics, perhaps medical devices like hearing aids. Longer term, this technology, we hope, will help increase fuel efficiency for power plants or automobiles, which we hope would be good for the environment.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that we’re very passionate about thermoelectrics. The most inspiring photo ever captured in my opinion is “The Pale Blue Dot”, when Voyager 1 turned around and took a picture of Earth. Carl Sagan has a beautiful description of it. Voyager 1 is of course powered by a thermoelectric.

Directing this technology toward industrial sensors is a really good idea (people already doing this).  The nice thing here is the temp differentials are sometimes much higher. i.e. sensors mounting on engines, generators, presses, CNCs etc.  In buildings as well it's easier to get strong temp differentials on boilers, HVAC systems etc.

Starting with people is running before walking (dynamic, low and unpredictable temp differentials, etc, etc) so kudos for taking on the challenge :)

Exactly. A couple of years ago I was contracted to put together a prototype for an inexpensive, wireless, energy harvesting sensor for light industrial use, as part of a feasibility study. (As an aside, that was a nice project. I love when someone gives you absolute and complete creative control of a project they contract out, very rare those.)

I eventually settled on a TEG, as one of the uses was air quality monitoring for HVAC ducts. If placed at the outlet of a duct, a suitable TEG could generate enough power (based on the temperature differential) to take sensor readings and transmit them once every 10 minutes.

Unfortunately, one of the limiting factors was the price of the required TEG modules... Apparently, MATRIX's claim to fame is they've developed some sort of process to build TEGs out of Si, instead of the current more costly materials. I do hope they succeed on that front, as there are a lot of places where low cost TEGs could be useful!
« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 10:18:57 AM by timb »
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Offline _Andrew_

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #105 on: November 20, 2016, 05:48:51 PM »
I still wonder if lambasting Matrix’s PowerWatch is a beneficial or detrimental
I would like to know more about the development of the uses of peltier powered devices in applications of industrial monitoring.
Within the applications industrial monitoring I work with the energy consumption of monitoring devices is inconsequential. I could see the advantage of having a number of self-powered (energy harvesting from waist heat) devices communicating back via RF to a central node. Instead of running for example RS485 and power all over the place.

So what if the PowerWatch appeals as a gimmick to those that are in to gimmicky watches and are happy to part with money for one if it helps with funding developing a technology.

You never know those that purchased one and tucked it away in the back of a draw in its original packaging in 40 years’ time they may be laughing all the way to the bank if it becomes one of those collectible novelty watches.   

I’m being a little devil’s >:D advocate.

The world is currently heading towards an energy crises and it is a lot more serious than people realize.
The present approach is currently treating everything in isolation.

Solar
Wave / tidal
Wind
Passive houses
Energy conservation
Ect......

It is easy to dismiss something because its contribution seems so insignificant but if considered as an overall combined approach can add up to something very big.

Now I said that the energy consumption of monitoring devices is inconsequential in the applications that I use them in. In isolation this most lightly true with the present deployment.

Saying that the monitoring requirements are getting more complex and sophisticated and long-term powering devices for purposes of monitoring can become an issue.
But (I know terrible bad to start with a but) waist as heat is something I often have in an excessive abundance at a significant differential between the surrounding ambient temperature and the radiated waist heat. 

So think about it consider most consumers including industrial monitoring devices that can be considered as a set and forget having little or no maintenance requirement, that just happen to obtain their power requirements from waist energy in the local environment, in isolation insignificant but multiply that a few million times.

So is people paying for a trinket watch to help move technology on is that such a bad thing?

This is where I hope Matrix (POKE) come back with a sensible response and maybe discuss a little bit about the industrial applications and the development work they have done with peltier devices.

Now bashing on batteriser I reckon is fair game. Main stream manufactures have pretty much cottoned on to using boost converters in there battery operated devices enabling them to be smaller, lighter and have less volume metric weight for shipping. Unless it happens to be a monkey’s arse that you are poking things up and magically being able to boost a life by 800%. Or some form of nonsense along those lines.
 

Offline madires

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #106 on: November 21, 2016, 02:09:21 AM »
I don't think that the IGG campaign would fund any research, since the production of the watch will take all money. And if there's a break-through or some real progress in TEGs by the research of the project team, they wouldn't have much problem in finding investors or companies funding further research or product development. Sounds more like a marketing stunt.
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Offline aandrew

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #107 on: November 21, 2016, 03:24:05 AM »
waist energy harvesting

Finally, a way to shed that spare tire without exercise!

(sorry for the homonym poke, it's in good humour)
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #108 on: November 21, 2016, 04:38:19 AM »
waist energy harvesting

Finally, a way to shed that spare tire without exercise!

(sorry for the homonym poke, it's in good humour)

Homophone, not homonym. Panthera Tigris and Tiger are homonyms, they name the same thing; homophones sound the same but name different things.
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Offline edy

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #109 on: January 11, 2017, 02:42:31 PM »
Someone was looking for patents. I found a few linked to search terms for "thermoelectric" and "akram" who is Akram Boukai, PhD, CEO and Co-founder. They are found here:

https://www.google.com/patents/US9263662

https://www.google.com/patents/WO2009014985A3?cl=en

https://www.google.com/patents/US9209375

https://www.google.com/patents/US20140373888

https://www.google.com/patents/US20150228883

https://www.google.com/patents/US20160197259

Most of it is related to a company known as Silicium Energy, Inc., http://www.siliciumenergy.com/, which changed over to Matrix Industries.

There  is a lot of interesting stuff there. A google search for "Silicium Energy" shows the history of the company over the past at least 6 years. Some information is also found here:

http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=142457561

The snapshot states:

Quote
Company Overview
Silicium Energy, Inc. develops silicon thermoelectrics for increased battery longevity for wearable electronics. Its silicon thermoelectrics are used for wearable devices, such as smart watches, fitness and consumer health monitors, wearable medical diagnostics, and implantable medical devices. The company was incorporated in 2011 and is based in Menlo Park, California.

Lots of interesting stuff:

http://www.xconomy.com/san-francisco/2016/05/12/silicium-energy-receives-3575290-new-round/

Quote
Silicium Energy Receives $3,575,290 New Round

This company is definitely on the "up and up". Looks like they are gaining traction in obtaining funding for better and greater things. I'm not sure how the watch ties in to all of this, but it appears to be just the beginning of a long string of thermally-powered low-energy devices they are going to be developing and marketing. As far as whether there is any practical advantage to using a TEG module or simply using a larger battery (or having the ability to charge), Dave's preliminary calculations show the TEG aspect has a minor benefit. Nevertheless, it sounds "cool" and when people ask you about your new fancy watch you can say it's powered off your wasted body heat.

Assuming most people cannot keep this device charged up enough to make it go on indefinitely, when the battery does finally drain completely, how easy is it to replace the battery or charge it up again? I think people would probably not care to change the battery every few years if it was easy to do so. The watch is a conversation starter, and that may be reason enough for many people to buy one and talk to people about it. But I agree that in principle, the marketing campaign behind the watch most certainly emphasizes the TEG aspect. If it is really mostly running off the internal battery and there is a net loss of charge daily that is just impractical to compensate for, and your watch dies in 2-3 years, then perhaps adding a thicker battery in the space where the TEG sits will more than make up for it (and maybe give you 5 years out of it). If the internal battery would last 2-3 years and the TEG helps you get 4-5 years out of it, that would be a different story.

Anyways, I like the watch, never mind the TEG aspect and whether it is a gimmick or not. However, I do believe having TEG definitely helped them get more media coverage and sell more watches. If they told backers that the TEG extends the battery life by 20% or something, I'm not as sure they would have built up that much excitement. Maybe, maybe not? I might still buy the watch even knowing the TEG adds marginally to the battery life, because I like the way it looks and I like the "coolness" factor of having it show me how much energy my wasted body heat is producing. But at least I was given the opportunity to make that decision after given an honest assessment. Certainly a better approach to be honest about it than to try to over-sell the TEG and have a bunch of puzzled backers in 2-3 years wondering why they need to change their battery when the claim at the time they bought it was that it would never run out.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 02:47:46 PM by edy »
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Offline _VWV_

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #110 on: March 15, 2017, 01:34:39 PM »
Hi everyone,

I perhaps it's just terminology, but why is a TEG-powered smartwatch a gimmick?

I gathered the discussion has arrived at a consensus that the supposed TEG would generate an excess over the net energy, required to run the watch.

I see some potential benefits that may justify a TEG in a smartwatch:

 - If it's able to keep the lithium cell at the perfect voltage, the cell should last... emm forever, so the smartwatch has the potential to work for tens of years (provided that other components don't fail).

 - No charging port = cheaper to build a water resistant watch, that will stay that way for it's lifetime.

 - No need to charge (so you can't forget to charge - happens to me all the time) / no need to replace a CRXXXX cell every XX months (no risk of braking water resistance in the process)

If they are able to pull of the X version with notifications, it would be a unique smartwatch on the market, combining basic (smart) functionality, 200M water resistance, potentially long lifespan (in tens of years), all at a reasonable price (a bit more expensive than pebble).

I would be happy to hear examples that tick all of those boxes.

The closest analog I know of is Vector Luna - similar hardware, 30 day battery life, a lot more expensive. It does have "apps" but they are  of very limited use.

On the other hand, it is not ideal that the team did not release ANY data at all, so a lot of their claims can't be verified at the moment. Take the accuracy of calorie count - if they use a complex model to describe the relationship between TEG generation and activity measured by movement sensor, such a setup has the potential to be more accurate than calculations solely based on activity alone.
Will it be that way, who knows.

Yet after having a far from open fund raising campaign, they managed to harvest a lot more cash, than originally planned (which by itself in not a proof of future success). Perhaps, not all backers understand that some features may not be as described, perhaps the watch will have teathing problems, perhaps they will save on production costs in order to have lots of profit, so that the watch would not even last a few years on average.

But calling the fundraising campaign an outright scam, seems horribly wrong to me. Lack of public raw data and a few PhDs on the team is just not enough of evidence to support such a claim.

Disclaimer:

I did preorder the X version (red flag number 1) of the watch and I have a PhD (red flag number 2, since there was some sarcasm on the PhD topic in the thread).

_VWV_
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #111 on: March 15, 2017, 01:58:01 PM »
- No need to charge (so you can't forget to charge - happens to me all the time) / no need to replace a CRXXXX cell every XX months (no risk of braking water resistance in the process)

You missed the point I was making in that the functions of this TEG smart watch are possible without the TEG, and would get almost the shelf life of the battery anyway with the TEG.
Ergo, it's pointless.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #112 on: March 15, 2017, 03:24:37 PM »
I gathered the discussion has arrived at a consensus that the supposed TEG would generate an excess over the net energy, required to run the watch.

Absolutely not.  That seems highly questionable.  So your conclusions follow from a faulty premise.

 

Offline _VWV_

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #113 on: March 15, 2017, 08:38:04 PM »
You missed the point I was making in that the functions of this TEG smart watch are possible without the TEG, and would get almost the shelf life of the battery anyway with the TEG.
Ergo, it's pointless.

I understand the point you are trying to make, I just don't quite agree with it. I think, a battery that is not under deep charge - deep discharge stress has a significantly longer shelf life, compared to the time estimates for a CRXXXX powered watch you've mentioned above. That is my point. The watch has the potential to keep going for years and years without human intervention. A coin cell you would have to replace every XX months, which may not be a straightforward operation. Some watches require special tools to open and close them properly. Small workshops charge people to replace CR batteries, and sometime they do a very bad job - your watch may lose water tightness and the batteries they put in last 2x less. If I don't have to do that for, say 10 years, that is a pleasant feature, not a gimmick.
There is no proof the hardware of the watch will be of sufficient quality to work without problems for a long time, but that is at least a possibility brought in solely by on-board energy harvesting from a TEG.
I am not arguing that the same watch could have been powered off a battery, that you can recharge now and then. Yet still there are small but tangible benefit of having a TEG on-board, hence it's not a gimmick. You can argue that it's over engineered, that the problem that is being potentially solved is not worth it, but this argument would breach into subjective territory in my mind.

Absolutely not.  That seems highly questionable.  So your conclusions follow from a faulty premise.
Ok, so I misunderstood the thread. I came here to add my 2c because I saw the video, which sort of suggests that a decently engineered TEG would be able to provide the small amount of power, required to run the watch under all but most extreme conditions.  So my conclusions follow from the faulty video premise, that I don't see as faulty. It's a good video in my mind, bit too emotional (for my taste), but with data and calculations to talk about.
Sure it is that if a person lives in a 37 degree incubator, the watch is not going to work. I don't, so from the video I conclude that a TEG-powered watch will at the very very least brake even in my environment. And if it does, my conclusions stand.

_VWV_

EDIT: questionable != faulty
EDIT2: I assume no one argues that extra channel of info on calorie count in addition to accelerometer could potentially increase the accuracy of measurements - how is this a gimmick?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 02:20:11 AM by _VWV_ »
 

Offline edavid

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #114 on: March 16, 2017, 03:50:13 AM »
Absolutely not.  That seems highly questionable.  So your conclusions follow from a faulty premise.
Ok, so I misunderstood the thread. I came here to add my 2c because I saw the video, which sort of suggests that a decently engineered TEG would be able to provide the small amount of power, required to run the watch under all but most extreme conditions.  So my conclusions follow from the faulty video premise, that I don't see as faulty. It's a good video in my mind, bit too emotional (for my taste), but with data and calculations to talk about.
What data?  They have refused to provide data.

Quote
Sure it is that if a person lives in a 37 degree incubator, the watch is not going to work.
Or maybe if they just wear long sleeves?

Quote
EDIT2: I assume no one argues that extra channel of info on calorie count in addition to accelerometer could potentially increase the accuracy of measurements - how is this a gimmick?
No, people have been too busy arguing the energy harvesting side to even consider that.  To me, the calorie count stuff seems like pure BS, proof that the thing is a scam.  How can you make a valid biological measurement out of a temperature reading?  If that were really possible, they would make that into the product.  (But first they would publish papers about it.)

P.S. Do you have any connection with Matrix Industries?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 03:53:47 AM by edavid »
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #115 on: March 16, 2017, 04:32:31 AM »
No, people have been too busy arguing the energy harvesting side to even consider that.  To me, the calorie count stuff seems like pure BS, proof that the thing is a scam. 

It's not a scam (which implies deliberate dishonesty), it's just overly optimistic and a bit gimmicky (To be fair, watches is an area where gimmicks are the norm, known in the watch trade as 'complications').

How can you make a valid biological measurement out of a temperature reading?

Eh? OK, the temperature readings you showed your mum when you were trying to bunk off school might have not been 'valid biological measurements' but body (core) temperature is a commonplace and very useful 'valid biological measurement' based on a temperature reading. Sweeping statements like yours above don't advance the argument. If you've got information that suggests that a heat loss measurement from the wrist would be of little use in predicting caloric consumption then provide reasoned arguments for that by all means, but please don't just throw out unthinking rubbish for the sake of gainsaying someone.

P.S. Do you have any connection with Matrix Industries?

Taking that tone is hardly helpful. If I was standing next to you in the pub that would have earned an "Oi! Hold on mate, that's going too far!".

P.S. Do you have any conflicting interests that could make us suspect that your arguments are merely thinly disguised self interest?

See what I mean?
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Offline edavid

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #116 on: March 16, 2017, 08:39:50 AM »
How can you make a valid biological measurement out of a temperature reading?

Eh? OK, the temperature readings you showed your mum when you were trying to bunk off school might have not been 'valid biological measurements' but body (core) temperature is a commonplace and very useful 'valid biological measurement' based on a temperature reading. Sweeping statements like yours above don't advance the argument. If you've got information that suggests that a heat loss measurement from the wrist would be of little use in predicting caloric consumption then provide reasoned arguments for that by all means, but please don't just throw out unthinking rubbish for the sake of gainsaying someone.

How can they measure whole body heat loss based on an uncontrolled, single point temperature measurement?

And if they could, why isn't that the big news?  It would be much more important than any smartwatch improvement they could possibly make.

Throw out all those old fashioned calorimeters, just strap on a MATRIX PowerWatch instead!

Quote
P.S. Do you have any connection with Matrix Industries?

Taking that tone is hardly helpful. If I was standing next to you in the pub that would have earned an "Oi! Hold on mate, that's going too far!".

P.S. Do you have any conflicting interests that could make us suspect that your arguments are merely thinly disguised self interest?

See what I mean?

The difference is that his/her/its only 2 posts are defending this highly questionable campaign.  That would make anyone wonder.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 08:43:44 AM by edavid »
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #117 on: March 16, 2017, 08:52:15 AM »
The difference is that his/her/its only 2 posts are defending this highly questionable campaign.  That would make anyone wonder.

No it wouldn't. He just asked some questions and made some observations. If what he's said seems to you like reasonable grounds to suspect some malign motive then you have a very strange view of the world.
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Offline _VWV_

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #118 on: March 16, 2017, 09:12:19 PM »
Ok, so I misunderstood the thread. I came here to add my 2c because I saw the video, which sort of suggests that a decently engineered TEG would be able to provide the small amount of power, required to run the watch under all but most extreme conditions.  So my conclusions follow from the faulty video premise, that I don't see as faulty. It's a good video in my mind, bit too emotional (for my taste), but with data and calculations to talk about.
What data?  They have refused to provide data.
I was referring to the video by the admin of this wonderful forum, I was referring to his measurements and calculations. The video demos, that the watch perhaps generates way more power than it consumes. Sure it is that the video does not feature the actual watch and sure it is the setup was tested under favourable conditions and sure it is that the calculations are best case scenario for the watch. But I nevertheless used this well done analysis to draw my conclusions precisely because there is not enough data available from the campaign managers, which was about the first thing I said in my first post.

Quote
Or maybe if they just wear long sleeves?
Wearing long sleeves should still generate some sort of gradient. Of course, if one wears a fur coat in a 37 degree room, then no chance, however I have different preferences in clothing. We don't know the power output of the TEG under a sleeve. They did not release data, so there you either trust the developers that they thought about it, or you don't and you then raise suspicions. And in case it's not self-evident raising suspicions != accusing public people of a scam.
Quote
EDIT2: I assume no one argues that extra channel of info on calorie count in addition to accelerometer could potentially increase the accuracy of measurements - how is this a gimmick?
No, people have been too busy arguing the energy harvesting side to even consider that.  To me, the calorie count stuff seems like pure BS, proof that the thing is a scam.  How can you make a valid biological measurement out of a temperature reading?  If that were really possible, they would make that into the product.  (But first they would publish papers about it.)
Well, I came here to discuss if the watch is a gimmick - which was the message of the video. Mind you, the admin suggests in his video, that the watch is a gimmick, not a scam, which sort of suggests that your opinion is not the only one out there.
Basically, you are telling me that if some stuff seems BS to you, that is a proof. May I inquire if you are an expert in the field of calorie measurement? Something tells me you are not an expert, though, because no expert would put out something that SEEMS as a proof for whatever. A valid biological measurement from temps? Well, that is how any system (including, but not limited to a living one) is measured. http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/04/health/la-he-calorie-counters4-2010jan04
Of course, the TEG would not cover the entire surface of skin, so it would only get a glimpse of what's happening. Could it be better than nothing? A good balance between practicality (TEG + accelerometer + a complex model to draw conclusions on the data they provide) and precision (a person locked in a huge calorimeter of room size, or wearing a gas analyser to monitor O2 consumption)?

I hope we all agree that calorie measurement based solely on accelerometer is imprecise, so it would be great to squeeze out a bit more precision. Having extra information on the amount of energy that a TEG generates can be helpful in this regard. Of course there are complications. The response to exercise is not immediate and is not linear, clothing and ambient temperature should be a factor as well. I am not saying, it would be easy for the team to get that extra precision out, in fact, I don't think they have the right expertise for that. However, extra way to measure whatever is not a gimmick, assuming that without the extra way the measurement is not precise enough. It is that way by definition - if extra ways to measure are required, than a measuring device (TEG in this case) is not a gimmick. Period.
Quote
P.S. Do you have any connection with Matrix Industries?
No, apart from what I indicated already. Do you think, if I bothered to write a disclaimer, I would have omitted that?

On a side note, do you understand that publicly calling an active public fundraising campaign a scam with no evidence whatsoever could be a criminal offence in some countries?

_VWV_
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #119 on: March 16, 2017, 11:39:12 PM »
Best not to feed the troll, methinks  :horse:
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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #120 on: November 10, 2017, 11:48:55 AM »
A few points to bring up now that this watch is closer to shipping:

1. They appear to have gotten a mini endorsement from AD:
Anyone surprised that AD's marketing department is fully on-board with the "IoT" hypetrain?

2. A first look from Engadget is available: https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/09/matrix-powerwatch-hands-on-body-heat-power/

So it seems like the electronics design is valid, even if the application is not. At this point, I think it stands as a nice proof of concept for Matrix's TEG design expertise, although it was never pitched to the backers as such...
 

Offline _VWV_

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #121 on: December 11, 2017, 11:09:21 AM »
So it seems like the electronics design is valid, even if the application is not. At this point, I think it stands as a nice proof of concept for Matrix's TEG design expertise, although it was never pitched to the backers as such...

I agree it's a proof of marketability of the TEG technology for Matrix, and no, it was never sold like this to the backers. In fact Matrix has raised more than 17x10^6$ from investors link - that's like an order of magnitude more than what they raised from backers. If the powerwatch campaign works out without a major scandal, they will perhaps get even more from investors.

The backers were promised a watch with certain features - that's what they should get. Whether the success of the campaign will allow Matrix to raise more capital and expand into other markets should not really bother backers at all.

The worst that can happen to backers, like myself, is that once the watch is out and investors are happy, Matrix may stop supporting the watch. Oh, well, we were not promised a never ending support of the product.

I hope that Matrix will release SDK as promised, and I hope that the watch will be very well built so that it could last.. well.. forever. It does not need a battery to run any way  ;)

[sarcasm] And forgot to say, now it's absolutely clear the whole campaign is a total scam. 1.6 m$ from backers + 17 m$ from investors raised.. sorry, stolen of course. [/sarcasm]

_VWV_
 


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