EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Crowd Funded Projects => Topic started by: ehelljo on July 07, 2016, 07:19:00 pm
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Hi all Johan from Sweden here!
Have you seen our PCB holders PCBite?
If not please check out our successful campaign with only a few days remaining.
If you have any comments or feedback please respond here or in the comments field on the campaign page.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pcbite/reft/13754495/ee (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pcbite/reft/13754495/ee)
Please hep suppurt us by sharing the campaign or get one PCBite kit of your own we ships worldwide!
(http://www.sensepeek.com/pcbite/pcbite.gif)
(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1464120200/PCBite_holder_small_pcb_blue_xlig91.png)
(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1467918307/PCBite_offer_59_sgkpsj_cjjwc3.png)
(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1464027879/16_sp5188.jpg)
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The advantage (to me) of a PCB holder is the ability to hold the board at different heights/angles while I work on it. I wouldn't find much use in a holder that can only hold it horizontally at a fixed height, might as well just set it on the ESD mat instead.
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The benefits we found in regards to only soldering is that it holds the PCB steady so it don't wobble around the workbench if the PCB has components on both sides or when working with SMD soldering or inspection under the microscope.
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Slick effort, but I would say this is a tough nut to crack. I have designed and machined a number of holders for my work since I have not found a commercial solution that I like. It did not take long to realize just how many scenarios I need to cover.
a few considerations for my work:
Easy flipping without have to re-arrange
Easy rotation
no magnets - my mag holders attract all the components lying around the PCB.
low-profile so that I can work under a microscope without the micro scope being so high that I have to stand up.
lift in/out without moving anything.
Optionally be tall enough to do double sided PCB's with tall parts (killing the low profile microscope requirement in the process)
Don't have anything in the way of hands, probes, wires.
Your product hits some of those but the red ones would keep me from buying. Take that as constructive criticism from a single professional.
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Thanks rx8pilot, i completely agree that its hard to find/make something that work for all situations and people.
I would maybe paint your points a bit different and add a few more greens ones but i really appreciate your feedback one professional to another.
The height of the PCB is reduced to 55mm for improved ergonomics during those long soldering sessions where you would need to rest your palm, hope this also would keep you sitting down :-)
One feature that we use a lot now when we have it is to be able to transport complete interconnected test setups with multiple PCBs, wires test probes etc when running between the lab and the software guys for verification using the base plate.
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Doesn't look like these are height adjustable like the Hakko Omnivise. To me, it looks like it sits too tall to be comfortable to solder on.
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Hi GreyWoolfe your right there is no height adjustment but the Omnivises lowest setting is 72,5mm. With PCBIte the PCB is held 55mm above your workbench. We reduced it to 55 from 65 mm to increase ergonomics.
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Forgive me if this horse has been beat to death around here, but does anyone actually use a PCB holder often? I rarely find myself wanting anything to hold down the board. Granted, most of my projects are repairs, and therefor the boards tend to be heavier because they are already populated, but even the small assembly projects I do get the old mousepad treatment. Every time I use a board holder or vise, I spend more time fiddling with it than I would just setting the board down on a soft mousepad and dealing with any difficulties.
My lack of desk/bench space probably contributes, and this solution seems to address that problem. These little poles look like they could be stashed anywhere. But $60? That's a bit steep just for some pieces of aluminum bar stock that were put in a lathe. Also, I would not have made the clamp spring loaded, I feel like that would either be too strong in a lot of situations, and risk damaging a board, or it would not be strong enough. If that collar was threaded instead of spring loaded, and there was a rubber washer (or two) on the top of it, I would be much more interested. This would allow you to tune the clamping force for more delicate applications, and the rubber washer would reduce the clamping force necessary to get the job done.
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If that collar was threaded instead of spring loaded, and there was a rubber washer (or two) on the top of it, I would be much more interested. This would allow you to tune the clamping force for more delicate applications, and the rubber washer would reduce the clamping force necessary to get the job done.
It should be also possible to use a spring loaded system, but with the far end of the spring attached on a screw accessible e.g. from the bottom, so to regulate the spring tension.
And definitely covering the biting size of the tool with rubber washers would be a good (and relatively cheap) addition to make.
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But $60? That's a bit steep just for some pieces of aluminum bar stock that were put in a lathe.
While I agree with some of what you say - $60 for these is a bargain. Make three on your own - assuming you already have a lathe, skills, and other tools to make them. All you need to do is sort out a design, work through prototypes, buy 100x more material than you need because it is the minimum, have the pieces plated, make the various tweaks and revisions. Find a source for the springs and sort out the right details. You will spend a LOT more than $60 in the process. I have been in the business of designing and machining special low-volume parts for a long time - almost all of my customers have commented 'it's just a little piece of aluminum'. My response is usually to remind them that it is just the right little piece of aluminum that solves a problem.
I have struggled to find a commercial or custom PCB holding solution for a long time and have not been able to find a great solution. Like you said, it's easy to end up fiddling with the system more than working on the PCB. With that said, I am primarily engaged in low-volume PCB production and have settled in on a few hacked solutions for the various stages of the process. I would like to have these for test and validation testing where I have a ton of probes on a PCB and it is generally sitting still. Also, during development where a number of parts are likely to be swapped or bodge wires added, they could be helpful too.
For only $60, I may pick up a set or 2 and add them to my kit. Would love to see some magnetic probe holders too.
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$60 for these is a bargain. Make three on your own - assuming you already have a lathe, skills, and other tools to make them.
$60 is about what each leg of a Hakko Omnivise runs.
http://www.tequipment.net/HakkoC1390C.html (http://www.tequipment.net/HakkoC1390C.html)
My personal preference would be for the stand to be more easily reversible. When I'm working on PCBs, I'm usually switching sides frequently and these types of holders aren't very helpful. If the jaws of each leg were closer to the middle rather than one end, it would make a "two-ended table" that you could quickly flip over.
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One thought though is the aluminum.. much harder than the pcb coat + have to worry about shorting traces/parts as well. And the mounting face edges should have a small fillet or something the break the edge.
I think maybe should have opted for antistatic or static dissipative plastic or heavy coating for the mounting faces. The Hakko Omnivise mentioned about has rubber on the mounting faces.
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$60 for these is a bargain. Make three on your own - assuming you already have a lathe, skills, and other tools to make them. All you need to do is sort out a design, work through prototypes, buy 100x more material than you need because it is the minimum, have the pieces plated, make the various tweaks and revisions. Find a source for the springs and sort out the right details. You will spend a LOT more than $60 in the process.
You're right, I've done the math now. The low volume makes it really difficult to get the price down. It's probably $150 for the raw materials if I wanted to make 10 of them (sourcing from McMaster). Then you will have to pay a fab shop a couple hundred bucks for the machine work. The price is reasonable, but I think you could do much better with $60.
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One thought though is the aluminum.. much harder than the pcb coat + have to worry about shorting traces/parts as well. And the mounting face edges should have a small fillet or something the break the edge.
I think maybe should have opted for antistatic or static dissipative plastic or heavy coating for the mounting faces. The Hakko Omnivise mentioned about has rubber on the mounting faces.
Maybe delrin which I think can be had in dissapative. Super easy and clean to machine and rather tough.
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It also laser cuts awesomely. Didn't know of dissipative variety - "Delrin SD". One thing that may not be good for this app though is the low friction, but maybe doesn't matter depending on how well the magnets keep things in place
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If that collar was threaded instead of spring loaded, and there was a rubber washer (or two) on the top of it, I would be much more interested. This would allow you to tune the clamping force for more delicate applications, and the rubber washer would reduce the clamping force necessary to get the job done.
It should be also possible to use a spring loaded system, but with the far end of the spring attached on a screw accessible e.g. from the bottom, so to regulate the spring tension.
And definitely covering the biting size of the tool with rubber washers would be a good (and relatively cheap) addition to make.
We had a stretch goal where we would add insulating washers to the PCBites and that goal is reached, so yes we have included insulating "rubber" washers with each PCBite kit. These are placed on both top and bottom side of the jaw so that the board is protected.
You can watch a short video of the washers here:
https://youtu.be/4aqyf3P_Y1c (https://youtu.be/4aqyf3P_Y1c)
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Would love to see some magnetic probe holders too.
Patience rx8pilot, patience... :-X
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Maybe delrin which I think can be had in dissapative. Super easy and clean to machine and rather tough.
We considered using Delrin SD but it was way more expensive than aluminium and it was not a good combination with the soldering iron and hot air gun when used in the lab.
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Watch PCbite in todays mailbag segment:
https://youtu.be/0ZWSOx-T6lg?t=1934 (https://youtu.be/0ZWSOx-T6lg?t=1934)
Updates made to the PCBite kit compared with the early sample Dave tested in this mailbag segment includes but are not limited to:
We include insulating washers so that you can power up your creations with even more comfort. These are placed on both top and bottom side of the jaw so that the board is protected.
Stronger neodymium magnet, for better experience when using an ESD mat to cover the base plate. There is a PTFE protection cap on the bottom to sustain low friction and protect the surface of the base plate.
Decreased height of the PCBites to improve ergonomics during long soldering sessions where you would rest hands on your bench for added support. Height is reduced with 10mm (0.4") while still retaining a wide jaw and perfect grip. The PCB is held 55mm (2.16") above your workbench.
Mirror polish on one side and matte(B2) polish on the other side of the base plate, yes we just decided :-)
And regarding the price, the price on Indiegogo now include worldwide shipping and all of the above updates.
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In thinking about the ways I work with PCBs, and none of them are solved by this:
- Assembling thru-hole needs the board to be flipped often. An improved method would hold the components in place when upside-down so I can solder them—in essence, a flat mat works best here.
- Assembling SMD (for reflow or hand soldering) needs a stable mount for the board, and some kind of wrist-rest at the right height so I can move my fingertips precisely. Since I use tweezers to manipulate the components, I need to be able to rotate the board since I can't readily rotate the components.
- Testing a board needs the board to be held at odd angles for access to both sides. Some kind of adjustable probe guides would help keep them attached to the right test points.
- Repairing a board needs a more rigid support at odd angles for component removal and replacement.
Unfortunately I don't have a reason to hold a few cm parallel above a surface.
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The mirror polished base I think is a smart touch, as you can see the board underneath as well while working on the other side. I always wanted to get those MARTIN and HAKKO also make similar products and I always wanted to get some, but theirs prices are in 3 digit numbers (and the first number is not '1') for a set of 4.
Good job!
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No doubt that this is a very helpful tool, have already ordered one :-+
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I ordered two. They arrived some days ago.
A really useful pcb holder. :-+
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i really like the concept, but the price seems a bit high for the number you get.
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Thanks for all positive feedback and photos sent to us of your usage of PCBite on your projects. Please keep sending us your feedback!
From next week PCBite will be a stock item and shipped out within 1-2 work days.
Special thanks to "Lucky Resistor" for the nice blog post.
https://luckyresistor.me/2016/09/16/pcbite-arrived/ (https://luckyresistor.me/2016/09/16/pcbite-arrived/)
(https://luckyresistor.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/lucky-resistor-12.jpg?w=600)
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I got my set the other day, and they are really nicely made. I've found a few uses for them already. They are certainly handy in cases where an Omnivise or Panavise is too large, and smaller helping hands are too unstable.
Only thing I didn't like so much is how difficult it is to install the adhesive insulation washers. I got some on, but it was hard to line them up nicely while holding the spring open without the strong adhesive sticking in the wrong position. Not sure if they should be "factory installed", but they do need to be easier for customer installation. One way would be to make them from a stiffer rubber material, and maybe using less strong adhesive. Alternatively, it should be possible to dismantle the PCBite for installtion - I tried to disassemble one, but I think they might be help together with thread locker
The attached photo shows them holding a "heatsink" where I'm load & thermal testing some DC/DC converters with various inductor choices. (Yes my desk is a bit messy, but that is probably better than normal!)
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Great to get your feedback, impressive bite in that heatsink!
We agree that the optional insulation washers are a bit tricky to mount, we will consider your ideas to make them stiffer. The best tip we received so far is to use a helping hand(another human hand that is) to hold the jaw open while installing the adhesive rubber washer.
/Johan
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Great to get your feedback, impressive bite in that heatsink!
It isn't a real heatsink, just a piece of aluminium angle... but that is actually quite close to what the customer will be using as these will PCBs be part of a sculpture with LED lighting.
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PCBite is now in stock and includes free shipping worldwide!
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pcbite/reft/13754495/ee (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/pcbite/reft/13754495/ee)
And again thanks for those cool photos of all your projects using PCBite!
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Do you still order them from the Indigogo page?
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Yes we accept orders on Indiegogo. We are "in demand" on Indiegogo.
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Thanks, i will make sure its sent before the weekend to save a few delivery days.
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I'm pretty sold on these... I want something to work with small wearable device PCBs, and my hot air rework iron, and seems it's this, hakko omnivise, and the panavise with the board holding head is about it..
and of the 3 options, this looks like it's lowest... also I expect the metal base will be good for absorbing extra heat and protecting my desk.
so - anyone done hot air rework with these, and been happy? how are the board protective washers for heat immunity? I guess i could leave/take washers off 2, and have them on the other two?
if I don't buy this I'll probably get a single hakko omnivise.
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thanks blueskull!
It looks to be almost exactly what I'm looking for. Good to hear it's practically useful to people who are using it.
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Forgive me if this horse has been beat to death around here, but does anyone actually use a PCB holder often? I rarely find myself wanting anything to hold down the board. Granted, most of my projects are repairs, and therefor the boards tend to be heavier because they are already populated, but even the small assembly projects I do get the old mousepad treatment. Every time I use a board holder or vise, I spend more time fiddling with it than I would just setting the board down on a soft mousepad and dealing with any difficulties.
I have two Hakko Omnivices and they are absolutely something i use daily. They are great for holding a board over a Preheater or steady while you are putting SMT parts on.. and when you have double sided boards, putting on the bench is not always an option.
These are a nice idea, and ithink i'll pick up a set.
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I don't have a preheater yet, but it's on my to get list... probably just a cheap one as I won't be using it anywhere near as much as the reflow iron.
so - sounds like these PCBites shouldn't be expected to work with a preheater? I was hoping they might sit on top of one, even if they did get pretty hot. The preheater isn't going to cause as much heat as the reflow iron.
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hmmm, good point about the magnets.
if I was to stand them next to the preheater with some means of raising them, I'd have the same issue as using an omnivise with a preheater - my boards tend to be very small lately, so clamping from off the side of the preheater will mean a large part of the board is missing the preheater..
Anyway, I'll worry about it once I get a preheater. maybe a panavise 301 with an extra 315 head is in my future....
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weird... indiegogo isn't letting me buy one.. fails at the payment phase with 2 different credit cards, one Visa, one mastercard, from 2 different banks. And it even fails if I choose payment via paypal! (fails at the point of going to paypal's site..) have tried a couple of times today from scratch each time... might try another day.
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Why would you be preheating int 230C? thats not preheating thats taking it to soldering temp.
when i'm repairing or modifying a board, i'm preheating the board to about 150C, then you hit it with hot air. saves breaking boards by lifting tracks etc.. Depending on the preheater you might only be heating a small portion of the board.
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weird... indiegogo isn't letting me buy one.. fails at the payment phase with 2 different credit cards, one Visa, one mastercard, from 2 different banks. And it even fails if I choose payment via paypal! (fails at the point of going to paypal's site..) have tried a couple of times today from scratch each time... might try another day.
Not the first time ive heard that IGG refuses cards without reason
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well, I came back to the PCBite indiegogo page after a few days and tried again...
having already have it fail to work with 2 credit cards and paypal last time I tried..
Now I've submitted an issue to indiegogo, so lets see how that goes.
I sure hope for the PCBite guys sake that I'm the only one this is happening to... Plenty of people seeing this behaviour would just close the browser tab and go find something else to buy.
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well... looks like chrome autofill (just my address, not even the payment details!) is what kills an indiegogo order.
And they can take 5 days to respond to a support request, with a "yeah, it's probably this" canned email.
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Pretty hokey, if you ask me. And I wonder how many potential sales this whole situation just kills.
But I finally have my PCBites ordered. Which is exciting because they're pretty much exactly what I had in mind when I started searching here for the different board holding solutions people were using for rework of small boards all those weeks ago.
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well... looks like chrome autofill (just my address, not even the payment details!) is what kills an indiegogo order.
And they can take 5 days to respond to a support request, with a "yeah, it's probably this" canned email.
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Pretty hokey, if you ask me. And I wonder how many potential sales this whole situation just kills.
But I finally have my PCBites ordered. Which is exciting because they're pretty much exactly what I had in mind when I started searching here for the different board holding solutions people were using for rework of small boards all those weeks ago.
I've run into many sites where the Chrome autofill doesn't work. For some reason the way the fields are populated doesn't get through the system, they come through blank, or switched, or just wrong. It's happened enough times that I've just disabled Chrome's autofill entirely.
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I've run into many sites where the Chrome autofill doesn't work. For some reason the way the fields are populated doesn't get through the system, they come through blank, or switched, or just wrong. It's happened enough times that I've just disabled Chrome's autofill entirely.
Weird... I've never had this problem until this particular attempt at buying on indiegogo. And I use basic info autofill a lot - any time I sign up for something new on the web, or buy something on the web. Name, email address, street address where required. all autofill.
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Just ordered it!
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Mine showed up!
very cool. Holds my small PCBs exactly how I want, and very nice to work with my reflow iron.
One thing I hadn't realised is the base of the device is epoxy of some sort.. no idea at all what the temperature range of this is, so that means sitting it on a preheater is pretty much completely out, and I'm definitely going to want something else to use when I eventually get a preheater.. Standard panavise 301 model with the additional PCB holding head is looking a likely combo.
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Is the item sent from EU, or outside EU?
- it's a neat product, and somewhat usefull imho.
I do have one idea, or request to make it super usefull for someone like me:
The top, where the spring and washer is located, can easily be flipped around - so a double sided board can be worked without the clamps has to be worked each time the board is flipped.
The height should not vary too much between top and bottom work side, if possible.
A strong magnet on the bottom item sticking to the base plate - and a weaker magnet in the top, with a ferromagnetic core embedded inside the spring/washer item? :wtf: :-+ :-+ :-+
(Yep, the PCBite has bitten and cracked itself on an iron toothache :-DD)
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I just pledged for the Version 2.0 !
http://kck.st/2B3eHco (http://kck.st/2B3eHco)
I don't need the new probes, but the larger plate will be welcome.
-- EDIT --
By the way, this kickstarter also permits to get the original package for the original Kickstarter price, which is nice for those that missed it and want it at a discount.
-- EDIT --
I created a new topic dedicated to the 2.0 KS : https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/pcbite-2-0-a-new-kickstarter-for-an-upgraded-version/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/pcbite-2-0-a-new-kickstarter-for-an-upgraded-version/)
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Anybody knows which shipping carrier they use within Europe?
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cool!
I'm still getting use out of my original pcbites.
Not sure I personally need more, or probes, but the basic product is very solid and my go-to PCB holding solution for rework.
Definitely recommended to anyone who's watching this campaign and sitting on the fence.
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Postnord
Anybody knows which shipping carrier they use within Europe?
Standard shipping with Postnord from Sweden, delivered by Deutsche Post in Germany
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For the protocol: I pledged for the full set (with four probes and the large base) and received it only a few days after I filled the survey. I haven't actually used it yet but it looks exactly like what I expected.
Thumbs up :-+ !
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I got my V2 set and it is great! :) much better than sliding helping hands
just remember surface scratches easy - so don't leave needle tip on it! :) Maybe that is an idea for future - "a needle tip parking area" - a little rubber ? square somewhere.
But I would have liked a lot more banana plugs! *G*
/k